Are Roadmasters really future classics?

[buickguy]

I found this on the website of the anchorman for Channel 3 in Hartford, Connecticut

http://dennishouse.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/reason-727-to-own-a-buick-roadmaster/

[A Horse With No Name]

I hope! One of the last really cool RWD American cars...

I hope! One of the last really cool RWD American cars...

[Croc]

Honestly the only B-Body that won't likely make it as a future classic is the Custom Cruiser because it really isn't notable in any way, shape or form compared to the Roadmaster or the Caprice.

[Drew Dowdell]

It won't be as big a collectible as the Roadmaster, but the Custom Cruiser will hold it's own among B-body enthusiasts

[Croc]

It won't be as big a collectible as the Roadmaster, but the Custom Cruiser will hold it's own among B-body enthusiasts

That's not quite the same as whether or not it will be a future classic. There are some Gremlin fanatics out there, but the Gremlin is no Tri-5 Bel Air.

[Robert Hall]

I can see it having it's own unique appeal---the Roadmaster, Caprice, Impala SS, Custom Cruiser, and Fleetwood Brougham all have their appeal as the last traditional full size BOF/RWD/V8 American style cars from GM. The Panthers have the same kind of appeal to me, w/ the advantage of being available an additional 14 years.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

Will they be classics?

Sure, in a "that's a neat old car" sort of way.

But never in a "My God, that's a real Hemicuda" kind of way.

The Impala SS is somewhere in between.

[SAmadei]

Honestly the only B-Body that won't likely make it as a future classic is the Custom Cruiser because it really isn't notable in any way, shape or form compared to the Roadmaster or the Caprice.

Its notable in its scarcity.

As far as wagons go, all three wagons are pretty much alike. At least the Olds had the Vista roof... though the Buick later had it as well.

[Camino LS6]

Its notable in its scarcity.

As far as wagons go, all three wagons are pretty much alike. At least the Olds had the Vista roof... though the Buick later had it as well.

Quite true.

One could make the case that the Olds was the most interesting of the pre-LT1 cars.

[Robert Hall]

I think other than the Vista roofs, the wagons shared sheetmetal and really only differed externally in trim, grilles, and wheels. It's too bad the Roadmaster wagon didn't have the same distinctive front clip as the sedan instead of the Caprice w/ a different grille front that it had.

[Camino LS6]

The Olds nose was a bit different.

[SAmadei]

I think other than the Vista roofs, the wagons shared sheetmetal and really only differed externally in trim, grilles, and wheels. I

They did... but it was part of the GM' modus operandi. Its not like the '91-'96 wagon bodies were perceived to be any less distinct division to division than the '77-'90 wagon bodies. Some of the '77-'90 bodies had different sheetmetal, but it was so subtle, it takes a B-bod aficionado to tell whats different about them.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think other than the Vista roofs, the wagons shared sheetmetal and really only differed externally in trim, grilles, and wheels. It's too bad the Roadmaster wagon didn't have the same distinctive front clip as the sedan instead of the Caprice w/ a different grille front that it had.

Rebuilding the battle wagon

[A Horse With No Name]

Too bad that the old Cutlass Vista Cruiser wagons are now so uncommon, I always thought the 70-72 Cutty Vista Cruiser, or even the 68-69 version, was just the cat's ass as far as wagons went.

[SAmadei]

Rebuilding the battle wagon

Phantom!

[A Horse With No Name]

A cool phantom would be indeed just that...a buick with a Vista Cruiser style roof, but do it with a 70-72 midsized Buick.

[Robert Hall]

A cool phantom would be indeed just that...a buick with a Vista Cruiser style roof, but do it with a 70-72 midsized Buick.

Yeah...a Buick Sport Wagon...Buick had the Sport Wagon w/ the VC roof and LWB from '64-69, but not '70-72, I think.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmy9XeyPU3g

[Robert Hall]

Rebuilding the battle wagon

I remember this project...whatever became of it..was it ever finished/

[knightfan26917]

They did... but it was part of the GM' modus operandi. Its not like the '91-'96 wagon bodies were perceived to be any less distinct division to division than the '77-'90 wagon bodies. Some of the '77-'90 bodies had different sheetmetal, but it was so subtle, it takes a B-bod aficionado to tell whats different about them.

Mostly, yes, but I don't consider myself a b-body aficionado, but I can sure tell the difference between them....

It's the same, of course, for the MCs/Olds CSs/Buick Regals/Pontiac GPs ... tough to tell them apart, if you don't know what to look for, etc.....

Cort | 37.m.IL.pigValve.pacemaker | 5 Monte Carlos + 1 Caprice Classic |* Rt 66+northwestUS, 2011?

MCs.CC + CHD.models.HO.legos.RadioShows + RoadTrips.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I kept my heart hidden" ... Bryan White ... 'So Much For Pretending'

[SAmadei]

Mostly, yes, but I don't consider myself a b-body aficionado, but I can sure tell the difference between them....

It's the same, of course, for the MCs/Olds CSs/Buick Regals/Pontiac GPs ... tough to tell them apart, if you don't know what to look for, etc.....

I'm talking about the wagon bodies. If you took a '77-'90 wagon and removed the trim, badges, taillights, and the front header panel/nose... it would be as hard to tell a brand on a '77-'90 as a '91-'96.

'77-90 sedans/coupes, that's a totally different case.

As for those G-bodies, at least on the coupes, you can still tell them apart much easier, even with the above test. Theres no mistaking the Monte's side swoop... and the rest you merely look at the quarter window.

I bring this up because the B-bods are all similar enough that I've been caught a few times having trouble telling, say, a Chevy wagon from a Buick wagon, on the street from the rear, simply because I didn't see the crucial clue. (This is an essential requirement for the "Car Guy" to be able to spot the make/model/year of something in a quick glimpse, half hidden behind a truck, going in the other direction at full speed, when some non-car person calls out "Wow, what is that?"... failure to do so risks your "Car Guy" status.) Yet I go to the J-yard trying to interchange a door and unless you have them side-by-side, you can barely tell that one has a body line a 1/4" higher than the other.

[Blake Noble]

I went to Somernite's Cruise today and found a '90s Roadmaster lurking among a group of 4-4-2s, Chevelles, and Trans Ams. So that seems that's the way it's heading.

66: I also found a '70 Vista Cruiser wagon in primer black, and for sale as well I think.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm talking about the wagon bodies. If you took a '77-'90 wagon and removed the trim, badges, taillights, and the front header panel/nose... it would be as hard to tell a brand on a '77-'90 as a '91-'96.

'77-90 sedans/coupes, that's a totally different case.

As for those G-bodies, at least on the coupes, you can still tell them apart much easier, even with the above test. Theres no mistaking the Monte's side swoop... and the rest you merely look at the quarter window.

I bring this up because the B-bods are all similar enough that I've been caught a few times having trouble telling, say, a Chevy wagon from a Buick wagon, on the street from the rear, simply because I didn't see the crucial clue. (This is an essential requirement for the "Car Guy" to be able to spot the make/model/year of something in a quick glimpse, half hidden behind a truck, going in the other direction at full speed, when some non-car person calls out "Wow, what is that?"... failure to do so risks your "Car Guy" status.) Yet I go to the J-yard trying to interchange a door and unless you have them side-by-side, you can barely tell that one has a body line a 1/4" higher than the other.

Oldsmobile almost always had two tone exteriors. Some LTZ Caprice wagons had two tone exterior also, but most generally came with woodgrain. So if it has a two tone exterior, it's a Caprice or Custom Cruiser. If it has woodgrain it's a Roadmaster or Caprice. The Custom Cruiser was not available with woodgrain at all. (part of Oldsmobile trying to modernize it's image) The Roadmaster came with woodgrain standard, but the customer could delete it at his/her option, leaving a single color vehicle...... which brings us to the next point.

The Vista roof. It wasn't available on the Caprice, but was standard on the Custom Cruiser and Roadmaster.

So the final breakdown is this:

Single color + no vista roof = Caprice Estate

Single color + vista roof = Roadmaster Estate

Two Tone + no vista roof = Caprice Estate (and probably an LTZ)

Two Tone + vista roof = Custom Cruiser

Wood grain + no vista roof = Caprice Estate

Wood grain + vista roof = Roadmaster Estate

Now you can identify the late body wagons with your "crucial clue". You're welcome.

[Drew Dowdell]

Like this for example:

It's easy to tell that this is a Custom Cruiser wearing a Caprice grill.

Two-tone + Vista roof = Custom Cruiser.

[Robert Hall]

Like this for example:

It's easy to tell that this is a Custom Cruiser wearing a Caprice grill.

Two-tone + Vista roof = Custom Cruiser.

That one has an identity crisis...Chevmobile.

[SAmadei]

Now you can identify the late body wagons with your "crucial clue". You're welcome.

You forgot to include how to tell the '91-'94s from the '95-'96s.

And... up next a spotter's guide to telling Aveos and G3s apart. ;-)

[A Horse With No Name]

I went to Somernite's Cruise today and found a '90s Roadmaster lurking among a group of 4-4-2s, Chevelles, and Trans Ams. So that seems that's the way it's heading.

66: I also found a '70 Vista Cruiser wagon in primer black, and for sale as well I think.

DO NOT TELL ME THAT! I don't need another old car, I'm just recovering from that addiction...er hobby..um..how much did they want, and what was it like?

[Drew Dowdell]

You forgot to include how to tell the '91-'94s from the '95-'96s.

And... up next a spotter's guide to telling Aveos and G3s apart. ;-)

Oh that's easy... the mirrors.

In the 3 pictures I posted. The Custom Cruiser and Caprice are 91-94 with the door panel mounted mirrors. The Roadmaster is a 95-96 with window mount mirrors.

[A Horse With No Name]

Olds, were the Olds wagons sometimes not two tone? One of the cars in the Cash for Clunkers line at Toyota West about a year ago was a custom cruiser that was all white, and looked like it had been all white from the factory.

[Drew Dowdell]

Olds, were the Olds wagons sometimes not two tone? One of the cars in the Cash for Clunkers line at Toyota West about a year ago was a custom cruiser that was all white, and looked like it had been all white from the factory.

According to my book, 2-tone was standard. Doesn't say if there was a "delete" option.

However, people did all sorts of things with these vehicles. So who knows if it was repainted or just what.

edit: Did it have the Vista roof? It's also possible that someone swaped a Custom Cruiser hood onto a Caprice, but then there'd be no vista roof.

[SAmadei]

Oh that's easy... the mirrors.

Can't scrimp on the details when posting a spotters guide in reply to someone who owns 6 "modern" B-bodies.

[Drew Dowdell]

Can't scrimp on the details when posting a spotters guide in reply to someone who owns 6 "modern" B-bodies.

you own 6 of them? And they aren't in the C&G garage.... why?

[A Horse With No Name]

According to my book, 2-tone was standard. Doesn't say if there was a "delete" option.

However, people did all sorts of things with these vehicles. So who knows if it was repainted or just what.

edit: Did it have the Vista roof? It's also possible that someone swaped a Custom Cruiser hood onto a Caprice, but then there'd be no vista roof.

It had a vista roof...wish I'd shot a photograph of it.

you own 6 of them? And they aren't in the C&G garage.... why?

Yes, please tell us why!

[Drew Dowdell]

was probably a repaint then.

[SAmadei]

you own 6 of them? And they aren't in the C&G garage.... why?

Privacy. Unfortunately, in some places, owning too many cars is viewed as criminal... and I should have signed up with a more anonymous handle. Been considering changing it.

It sucks that one has to be paranoid of data mining and data mining that doesn't exist yet.

I'm also not particularly proud of my collection at the moment. I was making good progress fixing things and keeping them in OK shape... but then things changed, and I'm not real happy with them being out in the weather. Its a long story. Don't have many photos, anyway.

[Camino LS6]

If I were to look for one of these wagons for myself, I'd hunt down a solid color example without the damn woodgrain.

[hyperv6]

The fact is most of these cars if they are still running are rolling wrecks.

The cost to fix one up to suitable condition would be much more than the value that the car would see in many many years. The are still a lot of them around but few resto parts and too little demand to bother making them.

The SS will always have some demand as it was a cult to it's own.

The rest of the B body line is something that might make some neat future hot rod material. You can restore one cheaper if you go custom.

I have many customers in Japan that have exported the wagons. They love them over there.

The Fleetwood will survie in a few examples as grampa's car that he never drove. Once he is dead the family will give it to the 16 year old high schooler to trash. Lets face it is not a custom bodied V16 from the 30's here. Even the Allante is dirt cheap with a custom body. Cadillacs of this era are not really anything many will prize. They were kind of like a later 50's Packard. Yes still a Packard but not what they used to be. It may have said Packard on the hood but it was a Hawk all the same.

[Camino LS6]

You aren't seriously comparing the Fleetwood to a Packard Hawk, are you?

Talk about apples and oranges.

As for the assertion that most of these cars are "rolling wrecks", I beg to differ. There are still plenty of B-bodies in quite nice condition to be had. In fact, they tend to be cleaner than other cars of that era.

[vonVeezelsnider]

You aren't seriously comparing the Fleetwood to a Packard Hawk, are you?

Talk about apples and oranges.

I agree with this assessment... I saw lots of great Fleetwoods and Roadmasters this summer but at the end of the day I just wasn't in the position to buy. Next spring I will be in a position to get myself a project car, and at that time I'm going to find myself a nice Fleetwood.

Part of my ultimate plan would be to redo the exterior (Vinyl top and chrome, paint if necessary) but focus on the interior. Maybe do something to the door and dash panels involving leather and more padding, new seatcovers, and since I know a couple of craftsmen, replace the woodgrain trim pieces with real dark walnut. The Fleetwood interior has potential as it is, just needs a more detailed touch.

[hyperv6]

You aren't seriously comparing the Fleetwood to a Packard Hawk, are you?

Talk about apples and oranges.

As for the assertion that most of these cars are "rolling wrecks", I beg to differ. There are still plenty of B-bodies in quite nice condition to be had. In fact, they tend to be cleaner than other cars of that era.

You may have them in your area but they are high mileage JD Byryder welfare wagons here. They have held up well but they are far from pristine.

As for my Hawk compare. The Bro Hams were all sisters under the skin with the Caprice and Roadmaster just as the Packards and Stubakers were the same under the skin. At one time it ment somthing to be a Packard and it was reduced down to a standard shared platform. Years before it was like Cadillac and shared little with any other car. Many were one offs. This is part of what killed Cadillacs image.

The only Buick of any value in the future in the last 30 years is the Regal Turbo. There has been and will be demand for these cars as they were at least different under the hood and the GN was one of the best looking cars of its time. The rest of the Buicks will fade away as parts become harder and harder to find. Few people will reproduce parts for cars that have little demand. The high amound of plastics in these cars will mean an end to most unless they are customized.

Don't get me wrong I liked these cars but know I am in the minority with the public at large. A few old people who pass will leave them and a few low mileage clean ones may show up at shows in the future. But they will never be in a class like the 63-65 Riv or 53-54 Skylark.

The crowd that will embrace these cars as they already have will be the low rider fans. I do not say that in jest. These cars are just what they need to continue to make the kinds of cars they like and want. They also can restore them with custom made parts and not have to try to find impossible to find interior parts.

While I am not a low rider fan I have seen some of these and they were very well done.

Lets face it when these cars stopped production few people noticed or cared other that fans like us.

Edited October 25, 2010 by hyperv6

[SAmadei]

Lets face it when these cars stopped production few people noticed or cared other that fans like us.

Thats completely wrong. There were a huge uproar from the market segments that bought these when they where canceled. While they weren't selling great, they were selling better than a lot of current GM lines. GM even admitted that they were selling well enough... but they GM needed the Arlington, TX plant to build more trucks. I can't fault that logic, but production could have been moved elsewhere, or the RWD Holdens that virtually the rest of the world gets could have been brought in.

Honestly, the argument that "when production stopped few people noticed or cared other than fans" can be applied to everything GM makes. With few exceptions (Camaro, CTS-V, Pickups) GM makes NOTHING interesting with a loyal following... and could disappear tomorrow and nobody would care, other than a few fans. That's the price you pay for killing off your loyalists, little by little.

[z28luvr01]

Remember when everyone thought the tri-five Chevies would never be worth anything? Millions of these so-called worthless cars were sent to the crusher by people who didn't know any better, to the point that the surviving examples will fetch some $$$.

The same thing is happening right now with the Colonnade cars and the C3s of the same era. There's no evidence to suggest that the same thing won't happen to non-Impala SS B bodies. All it takes is one rich guy at Barrett Jackson....

[Croc]

According to my book, 2-tone was standard. Doesn't say if there was a "delete" option.

However, people did all sorts of things with these vehicles. So who knows if it was repainted or just what.

edit: Did it have the Vista roof? It's also possible that someone swaped a Custom Cruiser hood onto a Caprice, but then there'd be no vista roof.

was probably a repaint then.

Actually, I've seen Custom Cruisers that were monochromatic. Very, very rare, but they've been done. Remember, back in the early 90s you weren't locked into strict option packages/guides like you are now. Custom Cruiser may have only been offered as a two-tone, but back then dealerships were able to "special order" especially since a paint job isn't that hard to change logistically.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm sure it wasn't an issue at all. The Custom Cruisers rolled down the same line as the monochromatic Buick and Chevy wagons..... it isn't hard to not paint something.

[Robert Hall]

Actually, I've seen Custom Cruisers that were monochromatic. Very, very rare, but they've been done. Remember, back in the early 90s you weren't locked into strict option packages/guides like you are now. Custom Cruiser may have only been offered as a two-tone, but back then dealerships were able to "special order" especially since a paint job isn't that hard to change logistically.

IIRC, the first magazine pic I saw of the '91 Custom Cruiser was a solid maroon one..but that may have been a pre-production proto...

I think the only CCs I've seen in person have been white or lt blue w/ dark gray or black lower trim..pretty obscure cars.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Interesting thread. Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser and Oldsmobile Toronado were killed off at the same time in 1992 in the spring. I know because of an article I read years ago. GM was already working on Aurora and they felt the Custom Cruiser did not fit Oldsmobile's new image and and Custom Cruiser was not selling as great as the others. I wish it had its own unique parts on the inside and outside. That solid maroon Custom Cruiser was in Motor Trend. It was runner up in the 1991 car of the year contest. The issues I had with the B- Bodies 91-96 was the headlight design, the rear doors on the wagons and the Caprice sedan. Those cars are becoming quite popular. A friend of mine just put a Custom Cruiser front end on his Caprice sedan. The headlights are not the factory ones. They are aftermarket dual quad headlights I think that look better.

Here are two photos:

[Drew Dowdell]

wow! That's a really badass look on that car!

[A Horse With No Name]

Remember when everyone thought the tri-five Chevies would never be worth anything? Millions of these so-called worthless cars were sent to the crusher by people who didn't know any better, to the point that the surviving examples will fetch some $$.

The same thing is happening right now with the Colonnade cars and the C3s of the same era. There's no evidence to suggest that the same thing won't happen to non-Impala SS B bodies. All it takes is one rich guy at Barrett Jackson....

Dude, within walking distance or a short drive of my house, there are like a Dozen C3 Corvettes in various stages of disrepair resting behind garages, in garages, on trailers, et al.

The C3 is an under rated car, and I wish I saw more of them getting restored.

[SAmadei]

The issues I had with the B- Bodies 91-96 was the headlight design, the rear doors on the wagons and the Caprice sedan. Those cars are becoming quite popular. A friend of mine just put a Custom Cruiser front end on his Caprice sedan. The headlights are not the factory ones.

What was wrong with the rear doors? Or are you hinting that you would have preferred a coupe and 2 door wagon?

I can't say I love the headlights... I like the clear lens export headlights better... but I have not seen anything for the '91-'96 B-bod aftermarket that, IMHO, didn't look seriously cheesy or out of place,.

They are aftermarket dual quad headlights I think that look better.

Not doing it for me.

[Camino LS6]

Thats completely wrong. There were a huge uproar from the market segments that bought these when they where canceled. While they weren't selling great, they were selling better than a lot of current GM lines. GM even admitted that they were selling well enough... but they GM needed the Arlington, TX plant to build more trucks. I can't fault that logic, but production could have been moved elsewhere, or the RWD Holdens that virtually the rest of the world gets could have been brought in.

Honestly, the argument that "when production stopped few people noticed or cared other than fans" can be applied to everything GM makes. With few exceptions (Camaro, CTS-V, Pickups) GM makes NOTHING interesting with a loyal following... and could disappear tomorrow and nobody would care, other than a few fans. That's the price you pay for killing off your loyalists, little by little.

Exactly correct.

It was the raging success of the Tahoe that killed the b-body.

And the reason I never got my Impala-based El Camino SS.

Ticked me off.

Just a preview of what they would do to me with the G8 ST just over a decade later.

One of the magazines did some very sweet renderings of what an Impala coupe and convertible could have looked like - they were very,very nice.