NYC Spending $28m to Change Street Sign Font

[CSpec]

New Yorkers outraged as bureaucrats order city to change lettering on every single street sign

NY Daily News

The city will change the lettering on every single street sign - at an estimated cost of about $27.5 million - because the feds don't like the font.

Street names will change from all capital letters to a combination of upper and lower case on roads across the country thanks to the pricey federal regulation, officials said Wednesday.

By 2018, MADISON AVE. will become Madison Ave. and will be printed in a font called Clearview, the city Department of Transportation says.

The Federal Highway Administration says the switch will improve safety because drivers identify the words more quickly when they're displayed that way - and can sooner return their eyes to the road.

Still, several city residents were OUTRAGED.

"That's ridiculous," said James Sullivan, 34, a bike messenger from Queens. "They might as well just burn the damn money."

Construction worker Joseph Cain, 49, of Manhattan, reacted with sarcasm, saying, "I see my tax dollars are hard at work."

The city has about 250,000 signs, and it costs about $110 to replace one, the DOT says. Officials said the new signs will have improved reflectivity and clarity for nighttime drivers.

The changes are among many in the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices that regularly changes to improve road safety, highway administration spokesman Doug Hecox said. The mixed upper- and lowercase rule was adopted in 2003, but municipalities were given until 2018 to comply completely, Hecox said.

"If it's such a pressing safety issue, why won't it be done until 2018? I may not even be driving by then," said Paul Kelly, 66, a retired Manhattan resident.

The additional cost to the city, if any, will be "marginal" because it receives a steady stream of state funding for routine sign repairs and replacement, DOT spokesman Seth Solomonow said.

The life of a typical sign is about a decade, so most of the city's signs would be replaced in the next few years anyway, Solomonow said.

The city has begun switching some signs in the Bronx and Manhattan and will have 11,000 done by the end of the fiscal year, the agency said.

Signs have also appeared this way for several years in the 34th St. business improvement district, which used its own money to make the change.

"We went to upper and lower case because it's more attractive and more readable," said Dan Biederman, president of the 34th Street Partnership.

[Blake Noble]

I'm surprised they didn't choose Helvectia, seeing as it is a miracle font and all.

[Drew Dowdell]

What this calls for is Comic Sans

[Robert Hall]

I'm surprised they didn't choose Helvectia, seeing as it is a miracle font and all.

Yes..the greatest font ever. There was even a riveting documentary about it.

Though I'm fond of Arial Terminal.

[Z-06]

I personally favor capitalized letters. But whatever!

[FAPTurbo]

Our city has slowly been changing the signs from ALL CAPS to a mix of upper and lower case letters. For whatever reason, I've found the new format far easier to read. Perhaps it'll help tourists in NYC find their way around town just a bit easier.

[pow]

I'm quite partial to Gill Sans MT, or the official Saab font.

[SAmadei]

Probably 5% of those street signs are unnecessary. NYC has this strange habit of signing "streets" which aren't there... or are not actually intersections.

I can't count how often I'll be parking and there will be a street sign for a street in the middle of the block... which is nowhere to be found.

I wish I could post an online example, but I can't find one.

Of course, I don't care for the new font... NYC uses fairly small street signs in most areas... so I find the all caps easier to read. Also, there is such sign overload at EVERY intersection, that many times you can't read everything anyway... between scaffolding, trees and damaged signs, you many times can't see them... especially when you are doing 50 mph in a sea of taxicabs weaving back and forth, going through a "intersection" every 7 seconds.

[Robert Hall]

Larger street signs would be good...make the letters at least a foot high, and lighted on major streets.

[CSpec]

I wonder how long before everyone has GPS-enabled phones and street signs become completely unnecessary...

[SAmadei]

I wonder how long before everyone has GPS-enabled phones and street signs become completely unnecessary...

Well, outside NYC you might have a point.

In NYC, the buildings/tunnels/elevateds play hell with GPS... and some of the intersections are so close together, I don't think GPS will reliably be able to tell one from another.

At least using the Google maps with either of my phones, or the GPS in taxis, I see my position change by hundreds of feet while sitting still.

Of course, electronic street signs for your car could be implemented so easily with a low powered radio installed at major intersections. Considering that electric would be already present due to the traffic light, it could nearly as cheap as replacing one of those $110 signs.

[the_yellow_dart]

NYC streetsigns are hard to see while driving, Toronto's are better....

Google street view

[Intrepidation]

If they have to change it they should use Helvetica.

[Croc]

Clearview is the same font going toward all FHWA overhead guide signs because it is incredibly legible and easy to read, especially compared to Highway Gothic F. A mix of capital and lowercase is also much easier to read, and that has been known since the 1950s when Caltrans did that for their initial freeway signs. All caps is harder to read quickly because capital letters are BLOCK LETTERS --height and width is near-uniform, leading to looking more like a (in the case of white on green street signs) white rectangle until viewed up close.

This is a good thing, and the savings of time in deciphering street signs will translate to savings in accident costs and congestion delays. Definitely worth the money.

[Robert Hall]

One of the peculiarities of The Chand where I work (Chandler, AZ) is that the street signs are all brown instead of green...and the smaller ones are ALL CAPS and the larger (overhead at major intersections) are camel case..

[Croc]

Old LA streetsigns used small caps, but everything from the last 30 years is proper upper/lower. And we are white on blue.

[Blake Noble]

Yes..the greatest font ever. There was even a riveting documentary about it.

If they have to change it they should use Helvetica.

[Croc]

I'm not a fan of Helvetica. Right now my font of choice is Candara because it is super-readable and looks good in print or on screen, is versatile with sizing, and the slight flare on the vertical strokes adds some style and character. I like Cambria as a semi-serif, but only for headings or to provide visual contrast in some way versus my primary font. For the few applications when the stylistic qualities of Candara aren't appropriate, I stick to Calibri accented with Cambria. Calibri is soooooooo much better than Times New Roman, more readable, cleaner, etc.

Kudos to Microsoft for doing something valuable for society by raising the bar for readability and lite graphic design by making Calibri/Cambria the default style set. A+. Typing a paper or report can't be ugly using the default fonts/styles.

[balthazar]

The degree some of you are attributing to font's differences, at least the descriptors used, is ridiculous.

Helvetica & Clearview are nearly identical; just some of the lower case 'round' characters, such as 'e', 'c', 's' are slightly more open in Clearview than Helvetica. Yes- that's slightly better for readability... if measured by calibrated scientific instruments and backed by dozens of controlled double-blind tests.

My objection (if any) is that highway signage incorporates far too much letter spacing- that impedes legibility more than anything (there actually is no other 'anything'), but this too, struggles to reach 'minor' status.

Understand- I am NOT saying change signage to Helvetica, I have no issues with it (or Clearview) besides the boredom from a design standpoint.

My POV is- if these signs only last 10 years, switch them out as they age- do NOT replace a servicable sign with one in Clearview- there is NO measurable gain, just a monstrous waste of money.

Too often, government is like a frightened chimp, locked inside a suitcase with a tiny hole in it, inside a 1958 Edsel traveling 90 MPH with no brakes, trying to steer with several broken toothpicks.

In fact, this article's take-away for me is : these signs should last at least 25 years (power-coated AL, right??), not merely 10.

THAT's where a greatly-improved sign makes sense... which is why Gov isn't bothering to look at it.

Edited October 1, 2010 by balthazar

[Blake Noble]

The differences between Clearview and Helvetica are like the differences between Arial and Helvetica.

Calibri is soooooooo much better than Times New Roman, more readable, cleaner, etc.

Times New Roman is probably one of the most offensive fonts I know of and it can be tough to work with.

Edited October 1, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

Time to switch all the signs to the WingDings font.

[Blake Noble]

What this calls for is Comic Sans

[Satty]

If you put 5 different fonts in front of me, I wouldn't be able to name any of them. I occasionally want to punch font nerds.

[pow]

The primary reason I upgraded to Office 2008 was for Cambria... soo much more pleasant than Times New Roman.

And I couldn't stand the OpenOffice stuff because it just looked so unfinished.

Edited October 2, 2010 by pow

[Croc]

The primary reason I upgraded to Office 2008 was for Cambria... soo much more pleasant than Times New Roman.

And I couldn't stand the OpenOffice stuff because it just looked so unfinished.

Do you type whole documents in Cambria? I definitely prefer semi-serif to serif, but I can't see myself typing a whole document in a semi-serif.

[Intrepidation]

I prefer sans serif fonts. I find them easier to read, especially for signage, but also for documents. Helvetica is widely regarded as the easiest font to read, which is why it is used so much.

[SAmadei]

The primary reason I upgraded to Office 2008 was for Cambria... soo much more pleasant than Times New Roman.

And I couldn't stand the OpenOffice stuff because it just looked so unfinished.

I can't imagine PAYING for MS Office to have a font.

Viva LibreOffice!

[bobo]

My POV is- if these signs only last 10 years, switch them out as they age- do NOT replace a servicable sign with one in Clearview- there is NO measurable gain, just a monstrous waste of money.

Too often, government is like a frightened chimp, locked inside a suitcase with a tiny hole in it, inside a 1958 Edsel traveling 90 MPH with no brakes, trying to steer with several broken toothpicks.

In fact, this article's take-away for me is : these signs should last at least 25 years (power-coated AL, right??), not merely 10.

THAT's where a greatly-improved sign makes sense... which is why Gov isn't bothering to look at it.

While signs are aluminum, there's a layer of retroreflective sheeting on the face of them, and there are retroreflective requirements. The sheeting degrades over time, and some signs won't even last 10 years.

[balthazar]

^Ahhh- then kill the reflective requirement.

It amazes me that-say- 60 yrs ago; signs had zero reflectivity & most cars had yellowed 6-volt headlights and it worked.

Now we have super-white, LED, halogen/zenon/kyrptonite bulbs in headlights the size of loaf of bread yet we STILL need reflective street signs. It just goes on & on & on.

Someday- normal cars will be illuminated like today's cop cars and street signs will be backlit AND broadcast their names thru your car audio... yet it STILL won't be enough.

[SAmadei]

^Ahhh- then kill the reflective requirement.

It amazes me that-say- 60 yrs ago; signs had zero reflectivity & most cars had yellowed 6-volt headlights and it worked.

Now we have super-white, LED, halogen/zenon/kyrptonite bulbs in headlights the size of loaf of bread yet we STILL need reflective street signs. It just goes on & on & on.

Someday- normal cars will be illuminated like today's cop cars and street signs will be backlit AND broadcast their names thru your car audio... yet it STILL won't be enough.

LOL. Reading my mind.

Signs are so reflective today and headlights (yours and oncoming) are so blindingly bright that you can't see anything unreflective (like pedestrians, animals and debris) in the relatively dim street are impossible to see over the glare of the blindly bright signs and cars. I only see this trend getting worse.

[Lamar]

I like Times New Roman.

RE: the street signs, the problem with NYC signs was never that they were all-caps. It's that they're small and non-reflective (the ones I've driven/ridden/walked past, anyway).

[SAmadei]

I like Times New Roman.

RE: the street signs, the problem with NYC signs was never that they were all-caps. It's that they're small and non-reflective (the ones I've driven/ridden/walked past, anyway).

They are reflective... just not crazy reflective like the newest stuff. Add in all the other lighting, and the reflectivity is hard to see.

Well, apparently the size is not an issue. They are not changing the size. Granted, some intersections in NYC are so huge that its real easy for them to get lost... regardless of what font they use.

[Intrepidation]

^Ahhh- then kill the reflective requirement.

It amazes me that-say- 60 yrs ago; signs had zero reflectivity & most cars had yellowed 6-volt headlights and it worked.

Now we have super-white, LED, halogen/zenon/kyrptonite bulbs in headlights the size of loaf of bread yet we STILL need reflective street signs. It just goes on & on & on.

Someday- normal cars will be illuminated like today's cop cars and street signs will be backlit AND broadcast their names thru your car audio... yet it STILL won't be enough.

Back in my day we used candles and that was good enough for us. Dang young whipper snappers and their new fangled electricity. It's mad I tell you, MAD. Why someday they'll all be running around with phones that don't require a cord to work, and news will be broadcast through one of those crazy video boxes instead of printed on good old paper like when I were a wee lad. And horseless carriages will replace horses all together. It's all MAD I TELL YOU!

[Drew Dowdell]

and WOOD and a hand lever was good enough for our brakes!

[balthazar]

Questioning the cost-effectivness of a minute change/ debatable "improvement" is NEVER the wrong thing to do if one values responsible tax dollar dispersement.

If the signs were replaced AS the others aged to the point of non-servicability, the only thing I would pipe up about would be the font issue.

Since the piece reads that they are ALL going to be changed out regardless of condition and at a huge cost,

the question of the fiscal efficiency here is very real, regardless how much one blathers on about candle wax & horsesh!t.

[Croc]

If the signs were replaced AS the others aged to the point of non-servicability, the only thing I would pipe up about would be the font issue.

They actually are.

Since the piece reads that they are ALL going to be changed out regardless of condition and at a huge cost,

This is why you should try to refrain from flipping out over an article on the internet. Look up another article, and BAM suddenly you'll realize it was a slow news day and you were manipulated by a poor journalist trying to write a sensationalist piece.

the question of the fiscal efficiency here is very real, regardless how much one blathers on about candle wax & horsesh!t.

It actually isn't. Only if you fall for journalistic sensationalism.

Read the actual article: http://www.nypost.co...2VolVhXnCymfkvM

This is a country-wide regulation, a change to the FHWA MUTCD. These changes were approved in 2003. Because New York and other states complained about costs, they were given a 15-year phase-in. Most signs have been replaced as part of their normal life cycle.

Oops.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Croc

[pow]

Look up another article, and BAM suddenly you'll realize it was a slow news day and you were manipulated by a poor journalist trying to write a sensationalist piece.

You also have to realize who actively looks for these articles and posts them here. The whole point is garner a particular type of response wanted by the OP.

Frankly most of the outrage and knee-jerk reactions to many threads at C&G are the result of lousy, low-quality journalism. And they only serve to reinforce our current beliefs.

Edited October 7, 2010 by pow

[Croc]

You also have to realize who actively looks for these articles and posts them here. The whole point is garner a particular type of response wanted by the OP.

Frankly most of the outrage and knee-jerk reactions to many threads at C&G are the result of lousy, low-quality journalism. And they only serve to reinforce our current beliefs.

Agreed. Honestly, if something seems outrageous, unreasonable or ridiculous...it probably isn't true, or at least isn't being reported accurately.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Croc

[Camino LS6]

Too often, government is like a frightened chimp, locked inside a suitcase with a tiny hole in it, inside a 1958 Edsel traveling 90 MPH with no brakes, trying to steer with several broken toothpicks.

I absolutely love this.

Bravo!

[balthazar]

>>"the question of the fiscal efficiency here is very real, regardless how much one blathers on about candle wax & horsesh!t."<<

>>"It actually isn't. Only if you fall for journalistic sensationalism."<<

>>""while the mixed-case words might be easier to read, the amount of improvement in legibility did not justify the cost."<<

I see the NHTSA agreed with my contention : replacing them all regardless of the condition/service life of the signs did NOT justify the cost. Fiscal efficiency, considered at the governmental level, for a nanosecond. Wow.

Still, I wonder how much money was lost in those states that did NOT wait until the service life was over and replaced perfectly functional signage starting in 2003 ??

BTW Croc - It's not "falling for journalistic sensationalism" , it's merely the sheer weariness of poor journalism and the long-time exposure to gross governmental inefficiencies.

Edited October 7, 2010 by balthazar

[Croc]

The story was a sensationalist one about New York City, not about any other cities or states who may have been wasteful and/or stupid.

[balthazar]

Yet, in that the story's catalyst is a federal mandate, it involves every other city in the country.

[Croc]

Yet, in that the story's catalyst is a federal mandate, it involves every other city in the country.

It involves every State. There are federal MUTCD guidelines, and then state "supplements." Often, states negotiate on requirements with the FHWA. For example, California recently agreed to officially switch to mileposts instead of postmiles for their freeways and start adding exit numbers as a trade-off to continue painting school crosswalks yellow. Yes, in CA a crosswalk in a school zone is yellow. I definitely think it adds visibility, and I think exit numbers and mileposts are an improvement, so I like how that turned out.

[balthazar]

More of the same crap :