Carmakers must re-report HP numbers

[jrockb4]

I think this was mentioned a couple of months ago, when GM reported the STS-V numbers under the new plan. Wonder how the auto mags will feel about this :-> I bet they (Japanese makers) get a pass.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...UTO01/603130350

[siegen]

Not this again

While Toyota and Honda have subjected their entire lineups to the new standards, Detroit's automakers are mostly retesting vehicles with new powertrains.

[CARBIZ]

Well, as we know the news is a couple months old and nobody (especially not customers) know anything about it, we now conclusively know that Toyota and Honda successfully dodged yet another bullet, courtesy of a willing media.

And we all know if this had been the other way around it would have been GM ripping off the public on the front page!

[siegen]

Well, as we know the news is a couple months old and nobody (especially not customers) know anything about it, we now conclusively know that Toyota and Honda successfully dodged yet another bullet, courtesy of a willing media.

There was an article posted about the new SAE standards and how the "Japanese were ripping us off" in almost every single online magazine, car site, and news site (yahoo, msn, etc), back when it was first announced (and again with this new article).

[CARBIZ]

No doubt, but there is a difference between front page or feature article and buried in the back in the business or financials.

I haven't read the car mags in years. They disgust me with their BMW-Honda a minute articles. I can, however, speak about the main stream media, which I do read and I never saw a mention of it - which isn't to say that it wasn't, but I can assure you that the Toronto Bleeding Star puts GM's foibles on the front page (as they did with the gas tank problem, which was Petro Canada's and not GM's) while news of Toyota's sludge problems was a tiny business section article.

[MyerShift]

Not this again 

The American automakers probably don't have to retest their engines because it would actually be a waste of time and money for them, as their engines probably wouldn't produce different outputs to be notable.

[thegriffon]

Toyota and Honda had not tested their engines to the US SAE standard at all, but to the Japanese JISI standard developed by the Japanese SAE, and reported in metric, not US hp. Although Toyota has been thorough about testing engines under the revised SAE standard, Honda has still let some new engines slip through with the Japanese figures, without correcting for test conditions or units.

[siegen]

The American automakers probably don't have to retest their engines because it would actually be a waste of time and money for them, as their engines probably wouldn't produce different outputs to be notable.

Now that is purely speculatory.

Toyota and Honda had not tested their engines to the US SAE standard at all, but to the Japanese JISI standard developed by the Japanese SAE, and reported in metric, not US hp. Although Toyota has been thorough about testing engines under the revised SAE standard, Honda has still let some new engines slip through with the Japanese figures, without correcting for test conditions or units.

Can you give me a link to more information on this? So you're saying they are advertising PS numbers in place of HP numbers (approximate .986:1 difference)?

[Satty]

Maybe its not that nobody knows about it, but that nobody cares. Really do you think the average car buyer (something like 60% of new car purchase decisions are made by women) really cares if a car actually makes 5-15hp less than advertised? This is really one of those things that domestic enthusiasts will bring up to bash imports even though it will really only affect one out of about every ten thousand sales. That really is how insignificant this is in the world.

[z28luvr01]

Your statement is only half true, Satty. I agree that most people shopping for a car care more about things like safety, reliability, economy, comfort, features, value, etc. than which car has the most horsepower. But HP bragging rights is something enthusiasts do, no matter what side of the fence they're on. Remember all the cries of "Why can't GM compete" when Honda released the 240hp Accord, Nissan the 240hp Altima and 265hp Maxima, and Toyota the 280hp Avalon? Apparently all the 3800SC-powered cars are a figment of everyone's imagination, but I digress.

[BrewSwillis]

Your statement is only half true, Satty. I agree that most people shopping for a car care more about things like safety, reliability, economy, comfort, features, value, etc. than which car has the most horsepower. But HP bragging rights is something enthusiasts do, no matter what side of the fence they're on. Remember all the cries of "Why can't GM compete" when Honda released the 240hp Accord, Nissan the 240hp Altima and 265hp Maxima, and Toyota the 280hp Avalon? Apparently all the 3800SC-powered cars are a figment of everyone's imagination, but I digress.

Don't forget the Avalon is 268 now.......not 280!

[Flybrian]

Really do you think the average car buyer (something like 60% of new car purchase decisions are made by women) really cares if a car actually makes 5-15hp less than advertised?

Yes.

[thegriffon]

Now that is purely speculatory.

Can you give me a link to more information on this? So you're saying they are advertising PS numbers in place of HP numbers (approximate .986:1 difference)?

They were, probably by mistake (the Japanese SAE developed the JIS standard). Additionally the JIS standard is corrected for more advantageous atmospheric conditions which also boost hp (lower temp, higher pressure). Honda Europe had been far more thorough in correcting hp figures to the EEC standard essentialy identical to the old SAE standard. Where comparisons are possible you can clearly see what the old figures should have been. A quick comparison of Japanese-market hp figures shows that Honda and Toyota were not correcting for the US standard or units.

Note that for higher-output engines Japanese manufacturers by a gentleman's agreement did not quote actual output above 280 PS, although some engines actually surpassed that. Lexus is still the only brand to break that rule in the Japanese market, although Nissan will quote actual, higher outputs outside of Japan (such as 300+ hp for the 350Z and G35), but still "280 PS" :AH-HA_wink: :AH-HA_wink: for the same vehicle in Japan.

[LTB51]

They were, probably by mistake (the Japanese SAE developed the JIS standard). Additionally the JIS standard is corrected for more advantageous atmospheric conditions which also boost hp (lower temp, higher pressure). Honda Europe had been far more thorough in correcting hp figures to the EEC standard essentialy identical to the old SAE standard. Where comparisons are possible you can clearly see what the old figures should have been. A quick comparison of Japanese-market hp figures shows that Honda and Toyota were not correcting for the US standard or units.

That sounds like speculation again. Do you have an example?

I have no doubt that Honda (and even more so Toyota) was using all the latitude in the existing rules, but at least they retested and restated all their engines. GM didn't do that. Although one could argue that they shouldn't have to as their engines didn't seem to be affected in the same way (but the conspiracy theorist in me wonders how much GM's influence on the new ratings system helped them).

Still, tighter regulations are better.

Note that for higher-output engines Japanese manufacturers by a gentleman's agreement did not quote actual output above 280 PS, although some engines actually surpassed that. Lexus is still the only brand to break that rule in the Japanese market, although Nissan will quote actual, higher outputs outside of Japan (such as 300+ hp for the 350Z and G35), but still "280 PS"  :AH-HA_wink:  :AH-HA_wink: for the same vehicle in Japan.

It is my understanding that it was more than a gentleman's agreement... there were laws and insurance implications.