Is it just me ...

[Blake Noble]

Or have we all come down with a case of Fall Blues?

Yes, this includes:

-Bickering about the Aveo vs. the Fiesta

-Bickering about a rwd Buick vs. a rwd Cadillac

-Bickering about a rwd Cadillac in general

-Finding some small comment to bicker about regarding all three subjects or some other subject

We might as well dust off a thread about Pontiac or Zeta and start bickering about that while we're at it, just to come around full circle.

No, this isn't about who is/isn't guilty. That's not the point here.

Yeah, I know that Fall means the immanent approach of Winter, but I think we can do better than this.

Edited September 20, 2010 by whiteknight

[Camino LS6]

Actually, I'm feeling pretty upbeat. I've enjoyed those discussions and love fall weather!

It may not just be you, but I'm not feeling a bad vibe.

[regfootball]

fall / winter does depress me, but the economic mess bothers me even more. Tired of it.

That's ok though, election day will rectify a lot of it.

So I am not sure one can have fall blues if election day comes in fall!

[Drew Dowdell]

fall / winter does depress me, but the economic mess bothers me even more. Tired of it.

That's ok though, election day will rectify a lot of it.

So I am not sure one can have fall blues if election day comes in fall!

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAH

[Robert Hall]

Maybe it's because there isn't a lot of interesting new product from GM coming out this fall..

I'm really looking forward to fall--the idea of days where the high is consistently under 100 degrees for the first time since May is very appealing.

[Drew Dowdell]

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAH

Politics continued here

[daves87rs]

Eh, maybe we're all old farts now!

If we start talking about bowel movements, it might be time to move on....

[Robert Hall]

Eh, maybe we're all old farts now!

If we start talking about bowel movements, it might be time to move on....

How about colonoscopies? Those are not fun...had my first one a couple weeks ago. Preparing for one is the hard part, actually.

[Blake Noble]

Actually, I'm feeling pretty upbeat.

Surprisingly enough, this is one fall where I'm feeling actually positive about things myself.

In years past, fall, especially the period of time in late October/early November after my birthday, didn't treat me all that well. Winter used to be just as bad.

EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not just EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, but a five-foot high Wave of it.

Edited September 21, 2010 by whiteknight

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Or have we all come down with a case of Fall Blues?

Yes, this includes:

-Bickering about the Aveo vs. the Fiesta

-Bickering about a rwd Buick vs. a rwd Cadillac

-Bickering about a rwd Cadillac in general

-Finding some small comment to bicker about regarding all three subjects or some other subject

I think the optimism is starting to wear off for a lot of us. (me, certainly)

Being a GM fan ain't easy at all. And now that we're beginning to realize New GM is the same old $h! as old GM (and even worse, like old, old GM. Not even as good as Lutz era GM) it sucks

Edited September 22, 2010 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[SAmadei]

I think the optimism is starting to wear off for a lot of us. (me, certainly)

Yeah, thats what I was thinking. It just seems like GM is reverting to a "business as usual" but with some Toyota influence. Not really the great, sweeping return to glory we hoped for.

[Z-06]

I think the optimism is starting to wear off for a lot of us. (me, certainly)

Being a GM fan ain't easy at all. And now that we're beginning to realize New GM is the same old $h! as old GM (and even worse, like old, old GM. Not even as good as Lutz era GM) it sucks

The middle management was one of the major hold backs for the old GM - pencil pushers, negative nannies, bean counters, turf protectors to name a few.

Seems like Big Ed only cleaned up the upper house and let the middle deck in, which is now rearing its ugly head up. However, we can't blame him either for not being able to do that, because doing so would be extreme micromanagement and consuming huge time resource, a resource he did not have.

Lutz bunted those people, but with no one like Lutz in the playing field, they are having a field day again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's just very sad that GM, once such a multi-faceted and innovative company, can't even get the basics right anymore.

With this new birth, those of us who truly knew what GM was, swallowed our pride about abandoned divisions, models and visions in hopes that a newly energized business plan would finally give us something to be proud of.

GM was built on bold business moves, moving design and great innovation. New GM seems to be built on a poorly executed Toyota business plan with a visionary scope that should be targeted by a company the size of Honda. It's just another golden opportunity; squandered...

Edited September 22, 2010 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[pow]

It's just very sad that GM, once such a multi-faceted and innovative company, can't even get the basics right anymore.

With this new birth, those of us who truly knew what GM was, swallowed our pride about abandoned divisions, models and visions in hopes that a newly energized business plan would finally give us something to be proud of.

GM was built on bold business moves, moving design and great innovation. New GM seems to be built on a poorly executed Toyota business plan with a visionary scope that should be targeted by a company the size of Honda. It's just another golden opportunity; squandered...

At least they're making money now. Isn't that all that matters?

[Dsuupr]

Or have we all come down with a case of Fall Blues?

Yes, this includes:

-Bickering about the Aveo vs. the Fiesta

-Bickering about a rwd Buick vs. a rwd Cadillac

-Bickering about a rwd Cadillac in general

-Finding some small comment to bicker about regarding all three subjects or some other subject

We might as well dust off a thread about Pontiac or Zeta and start bickering about that while we're at it, just to come around full circle.

No, this isn't about who is/isn't guilty. That's not the point here.

Yeah, I know that Fall means the immanent approach of Winter, but I think we can do better than this.

WELL PUT! I'm glad someone else caught on to that and not just me. Complaining about GM and praising Ford, even if the GM product is better, seems to be in at the moment.

[Dsuupr]

It's just very sad that GM, once such a multi-faceted and innovative company, can't even get the basics right anymore.

With this new birth, those of us who truly knew what GM was, swallowed our pride about abandoned divisions, models and visions in hopes that a newly energized business plan would finally give us something to be proud of.

GM was built on bold business moves, moving design and great innovation. New GM seems to be built on a poorly executed Toyota business plan with a visionary scope that should be targeted by a company the size of Honda. It's just another golden opportunity; squandered...

It took 5 years before the negative effects of Roger Smith were noticed throughout the company. It will take atleast as many years for the positive or negative effects of this new team to be felt. Remember when Lutz first showed up and every one complained about the new (at the time) Buick LaCrosse (2005). His work did not show up at Buick until 2008 with the Enclave and though a new Malibu was introduced in his first years (2005), the changes he made did not show up until the 2008 model year.

Don't forget, some of the products so many around here love had been conceived and designed during GMs darkest days.

I'm not saying these guys are perfect and will make GM the worlds best automotive company that all of us fans dream about, but I am saying that we really don't know what is happening behind closed doors right now that could make the company that way.

[A Horse With No Name]

Eh, maybe we're all old farts now!

If we start talking about bowel movements, it might be time to move on....

Didn't Flybrian say that Lincoln was like...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

At least they're making money now. Isn't that all that matters?

LOL... Good one.

It's not that hard to make money when you slice your existing empire in half and conveniently forget about enough debt to sink the titanic.

[FAPTurbo]

GM hasn't even been out of bankruptcy for three months. They haven't even issued their IPO, and people are already saying that the new GM is like the old GM. Either some people have no patience whatsoever, or they're the epitome of fairweather fans.

[Robert Hall]

Give them time...what's really going to be interesting is how GM's situation (business, products, sales) looks in 3-5 years.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Intrepidation]

LOL... Good one.

It's not that hard to make money when you slice your existing empire in half, thereby aligning yourself to meet actual consumer demand and focusing your resources on one car rather than overproducing multiple version of the same basic car, having to spread your resources out to build those multiple versions, overcapacity, bloating inventory, and driving up incentives, which eat away at profits.

Fixed.

[knightfan26917]

Being a GM fan ain't easy at all.

Amen.

It's like being a Chicago Cubs fan. They CLAIM to have a new owner (they don't) and they still are sponsored by Ch#$r%*et. You can't have a winning team when you start with that combination.

With a few minor exceptions, the Camaro being one (though I can't afford it), I'm not all that excited about GM vehicles, which is very frustrating. On the one hand, it's good ... since I don't need/want a new car. Yet, on the other hand, it's sad because if I DID want/need a new car (which I kinda do), I wouldn't have anything to get....

*shrugs*

I'd love fall if winter (salt/cold/ice) didn't follow so closely behind it...lol. I love snow, just hate the cold and ice and salt that has to come with it.....

Cort | 37.m.IL.pigValve.pacemaker | 5 Monte Carlos + 1 Caprice Classic |* Rt 66+northwestUS, 2011?

MCs.CC + CHD.models.HO.legos.RadioShows + RoadTrips.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"It hurts to feel like such a fool" ... Dan Seals ... 'Addicted'

[A Horse With No Name]

With a few minor exceptions, the Camaro being one (though I can't afford it), I'm not all that excited about GM vehicles, which is very frustrating. On the one hand, it's good ... since I don't need/want a new car. Yet, on the other hand, it's sad because if I DID want/need a new car (which I kinda do), I wouldn't have anything to get....

Cort | 37.m.IL.pigValve.pacemaker | 5 Monte Carlos + 1 Caprice Classic |* Rt 66+northwestUS, 2011?

MCs.CC + CHD.models.HO.legos.RadioShows + RoadTrips.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"It hurts to feel like such a fool" ... Dan Seals ... 'Addicted'

I agree with you just so much....

And the new Camaro is cool, visually the car is a ten...but my wife complains about visibility in the car, which is a legit complaint...so it's doubtful one will grace my drive way...

[Robert Hall]

I'd love fall if winter (salt/cold/ice) didn't follow so closely behind it...lol. I love snow, just hate the cold and ice and salt that has to come with it.....

For fall, I'm looking forward to the end of the triple digit highs...looks like it won't be until after Oct 1 until the highers are down to a balmy 99 or less consistently again...woo hoo...

[A Horse With No Name]

There is a reason I don't live in Arizona....methinks Ohio is just fine.

In another lifetime, or a parallel universe, I'd like a house in Palm Springs though, I think

[Robert Hall]

There is a reason I don't live in Arizona....methinks Ohio is just fine.

In another lifetime, or a parallel universe, I'd like a house in Palm Springs though, I think

Yeah, Palm Springs is pretty nice..love the mid century modern architecture of many of the older homes...but for California, I'd love to live in coastal San Diego County or Orange County...Del Mar, Encinitas, San Clemente, Dana Point, San Juan Capistrano...love those areas...

A buddy of mine that used to live in Denver recently moved from San Clemente up north to Arcata....looks very nice from the pics I've seen.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

I've heard good tings about Santa Barbra as far as Cali goes....but way to expensive for me. I live in an 9 year old 4 bedroom house that's worth maybe 150K...in Santa Barbra the same house would be $800,000....and I can't make that kind of jack as an electrician or a refrigeration mechanic...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM hasn't even been out of bankruptcy for three months. They haven't even issued their IPO, and people are already saying that the new GM is like the old GM. Either some people have no patience whatsoever, or they're the epitome of fairweather fans.

As enthusiasts that follow the industry, WE should already have a feel for how well GM is going to do.

Look at the quality of product and the amount of product GM is dropping in the next 2-3 years when compared to the other OEMs and one starts to worry that the bad old days have returned.

Hell, even Chrysler is killing them on the product side now. Had this turnaround happened in the early 00's, GM would be fine. But now, even their newest models are becoming extremely dated. For example; The Focus KILLS the Cruze and I'm sure the forthcoming Civic will only add insult to injury. Cadillac is literally a one car division now and GM is allowing it's trucks to wither and die.

It's not that hard to make money when you slice your existing empire in half, thereby aligning yourself to meet actual consumer demand and focusing your resources on one car rather than overproducing multiple version of the same basic car, having to spread your resources out to build those multiple versions, overcapacity, bloating inventory, and driving up incentives, which eat away at profits.

That's exactly what I meant... To put it in a very basic sense, it's not hard to "show results" when you stop blowing and wasting money. The problem is a lot of people are mistaking GM's positive balance sheet for ACTUAL growth, and that's not really the case.

[Z-06]

Hell, even Chrysler is killing them on the product side now. Had this turnaround happened in the early 00's, GM would be fine. But now, even their newest models are becoming extremely dated. For example; The Focus KILLS the Cruze and I'm sure the forthcoming Civic will only add insult to injury. Cadillac is literally a one car division now and GM is allowing it's trucks to wither and die.

That's exactly what I meant... To put it in a very basic sense, it's not hard to "show results" when you stop blowing and wasting money. The problem is a lot of people are mistaking GM's positive balance sheet for ACTUAL growth, and that's not really the case.

Those are the exact two things that come to mind.

Chrysler is really on product offensive something I expected GM to do. The Detroit Autoshow was ho-hum, but I expected the products to pick up, but nothing that sorts seems to be happening at least at fervent pace.

GM should restrain from issuing IPO - I think it is more political than business decision. While GM made good profit last two quarters - as a Devil's Advocate one may ask how much of that money came from strangling the product lineup to make the numbers look beefed up? Unlike Chrysler it is making money - make more money and expand the business and then think about IPO.With double dip recession in hand GM IPO will NOT make money and give the bashers an opportunity they are seeking. GM is just shoring money numbers to make analysts and potential buyers happy while strangling products. I guess bean counters are working in other way.

One thing that bothers me is given the recent stride made by the four brands in this upturn, another well kept brand or two (Saturn and Pontiac) with limited and directed products will go a long way in building the numbers as well as bringing goodwill. GM says how 4 brands are overachieving sales compared to 8 brands did last year. But that is mathematical jugglery at its best. Last year was nadir of sales and if GM wanted to really see brands' strengths this year they should have exceeded to a point realistic to the market growth this year compared to last. Unfortunately GM is losing market share, which tells me the 4 brand trick is not working.

[Drew Dowdell]

First things first. The Focus will not "kill' the Cruze... it's simply not *that* much better. I suspect neither of them will light the sales charts on fire, but they'll do respectably.

The Fiesta will do very well and initiate some hand wringing amongst the GM Fan crowd, but once the Aveo arrives at, my guess, a lower out the door price, Fiesta's impact will be muted.

NOTHING that we can see spy pics of today was started post-bankruptcy. Even the pics in the 2012 Malibu thread are of a vehicle that was well under way when even Wagoneer was at the helm.

It's far far far too early to judge GM's fate by the products we are seeing. What I think we could judge GM by, is it's ability to make changes when an issue crops up. Look at GM adding Equinox production to Oshawa to meet unexpected demand.... a move like that is not easy to orchestrate quickly.

[Z-06]

NOTHING that we can see spy pics of today was started post-bankruptcy. Even the pics in the 2012 Malibu thread are of a vehicle that was well under way when even Wagoneer was at the helm.

It's far far far too early to judge GM's fate by the products we are seeing. What I think we could judge GM by, is it's ability to make changes when an issue crops up. Look at GM adding Equinox production to Oshawa to meet unexpected demand.... a move like that is not easy to orchestrate quickly.

I agree with the products - even Aveo and Orlando were Wagoner's babies. Alpha will be the first post-bankruptcy GM product. But the fact that politics are playing more important part than GM portfolio is something that cannot be ignored.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

First things first. The Focus will not "kill' the Cruze... it's simply not *that* much better.

But it is...

Multiple bodystyles, a hella better powertrain line up and better looks both inside and out.

With the goodwill that Ford is enjoying right now, the Focus has the potential to be a HUGE seller, especially if they emphasize the european influence. But then, I *guess* GM could emphasize the Korean influence on the... Oh.. wait.. Nevermind. It doesn't work that way.

The Fiesta will do very well and initiate some hand wringing amongst the GM Fan crowd, but once the Aveo arrives at, my guess, a lower out the door price, Fiesta's impact will be muted.

But isn't that the point? The fact that "New" GM is still having to produce products that are 'almost as good' and then beat the competitor on PRICE? And that's not even factoring in the already established B-Segment cars like the Fit and Versa.

NOTHING that we can see spy pics of today was started post-bankruptcy. Even the pics in the 2012 Malibu thread are of a vehicle that was well under way when even Wagoneer was at the helm.

But that's not the point.. The GM design 'heyday' was supposed to be under Lutz and that's when these cars were conceived. Now that GM has lost countless talent and delayed most of it's portfolio, it's only going to make things worse.

I'm willing to bet that the Malibu is going to be horribly dated by the time it finally gets here, not to mention being a YAWN in terms of style and performance.

It's far far far too early to judge GM's fate by the products we are seeing. What I think we could judge GM by, is it's ability to make changes when an issue crops up. Look at GM adding Equinox production to Oshawa to meet unexpected demand.... a move like that is not easy to orchestrate quickly.

Okay, maybe the logistics side of the business is better. But in order for logisitics to work, we have to get the design and engineering side down. (The side that worries me at this point)

Even the Volt, which had the potential to be an absolute game changer, has thus far been a marketing disaster for GM. GM is a company that still doesn't get it.

Edited September 26, 2010 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I agree with the products - even Aveo and Orlando were Wagoner's babies. Alpha will be the first post-bankruptcy GM product. But the fact that politics are playing more important part than GM portfolio is something that cannot be ignored.

See, I don't buy the Wagoner crap... Wagoner has become a scap goat for all GM sins of the past. But a lot of the products under Wagoner were excellent.

[Robert Hall]

See, I don't buy the Wagoner crap... Wagoner has become a scap goat for all GM sins of the past. But a lot of the products under Wagoner were excellent.

The top guy has to take the blame for the failures. GM went bankrupt and lost a lot of market share during his reign. Per Wikipedia--"The latter part of Wagoner's tenure as CEO of General Motors found him under heavy criticism as the market valuation of GM went down by more than 90% and the company losing more than $82 billion USD. This led to his being named one of the worst CEOs of 2008."

Edited September 26, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

But it is...

Multiple bodystyles, a hella better powertrain line up and better looks both inside and out.

I have a feeling you'll end up disappointed with the Focus interior once you've sat in it. The Cruze's feels more expensive and is a more fluid and functional design. Cruze is going to have multiple body styles, they've already shown the hatch..... keep writing GM to make sure it comes here.

With the goodwill that Ford is enjoying right now, the Focus has the potential to be a HUGE seller, especially if they emphasize the european influence. But then, I *guess* GM could emphasize the Korean influence on the... Oh.. wait.. Nevermind. It doesn't work that way.

Agreed, the goodwill Ford has will be a major factor in Focus sales.

But isn't that the point? The fact that "New" GM is still having to produce products that are 'almost as good' and then beat the competitor on PRICE? And that's not even factoring in the already established B-Segment cars like the Fit and Versa.

I don't think the Aveo will be "almost as good" as the Fiesta. I think it will actually be better. The Fiesta has a premium pricing problem that I don't know how Ford is going to address.

But that's not the point.. The GM design 'heyday' was supposed to be under Lutz and that's when these cars were conceived. Now that GM has lost countless talent and delayed most of it's portfolio, it's only going to make things worse.

But now we have Reuss. I think he is every bit as capable as Lutz... with less tenancy to run off at the mouth.

I'm willing to bet that the Malibu is going to be horribly dated by the time it finally gets here, not to mention being a YAWN in terms of style and performance.

It's the 2012 Malibu. You realize the current 'Bu has only been on sale since 2008. Four model years and it's being replaced on a newer platform? That's lightning speed for Honda much less GM.

Even the Volt, which had the potential to be an absolute game changer, has thus far been a marketing disaster for GM. GM is a company that still doesn't get it.

Uhm... what? How is it a marketing disaster? It went from being a design concept with a Tide bottle for an engine to a released vehicle on a new platform with a never-done-before-power-train in 4.5 years...

[Blake Noble]

GM's been out of bankruptcy for a little over a year now and the crucification has already begun? Uh, I think we need to drink a big glass of Chill The Hell Out and follow that up with a dose of Paxil. I can smell the biggest load of unnecessary fear through my screen.

Let's just see what happens in five to seven years, shall we?

Edited September 27, 2010 by whiteknight

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Fear?!

LOL...

More like a big fat load of apathy. (And that's the problem) A lot of GM's fans no longer care enough to "fear" for the future. It's a loss of relevance.

[Drew Dowdell]

Fear?!

LOL...

More like a big fat load of apathy. (And that's the problem) A lot of GM's fans no longer care enough to "fear" for the future. It's a loss of relevance.

That's only because we have no idea what's going on yet.

Think the Alpha platform is going to be ATS and Camaro only? GM has given every hint they can that the next Zeta is on it's way here too....

One of the frequent complaints we have with GM is that they show their cards waaaay too early. It took the Camaro 4 years from concept to being able to buy one from the dealer. Same for the Volt. The aweful looking Honda CR-Z was introduced at the Detroit autoshow in January and is on the roads now. The Explorer was available almost as soon as it was introduced.

The problem is, for GM to switch to this mode requires a bit of a quiet period.... less noise about future releases until much closer to release date.

[A Horse With No Name]

I agree with you Olds...and as a lover of sports cars...why on earth did Honda try to build a sports car out of their horrid hybrid?

Living in the past like that...it's almost the automotive equal of a comb over on a bald guy....

UGHHHHH....