Idiotic waste of time

[SAmadei]

Also don't do electronic banking- zero chance of getting hacked that way.

Sure there is. Its called "social engineering".

The chances of getting your bank account hacked is remote... unless you are completely clueless (which we know you're not) and give out your bank info for every piece of spam that lands in your inbox. Its actually a lot easier to "hack" your account the old fashion way... hitting you over the head in a back alley and running off with your wallet.

I'd definitely use EZ Pass if I lived where there were toll roads...the only toll roads I encounter are when I'm on vacation...and rental cars in those areas often have EZ Pass or similar.

Well, it took a long time for me to start using EZ Pass... I don't like the lack of privacy. I also don't like that your driving habits are obvious. I share my EZ Pass with someone who likes to harp on me for speeding... so I occasionally show them the EZ Pass timestamps... and distance... and derived time to demonstrate that I KNOW they drive as fast as I do. ;-)

I've tried to go completely paperless as much as I can. But if the Internet goes down for an extended period (2012, mega earthquakes, Beck/Palinpocaypse, whatever catastrophe happens this decade) then I'm screwed.

Well, in that case, cash ain't going to help much, anyway. At that point, you better have a hoard of gold, food, or gasoline (or clean water in your desert).

[Robert Hall]

As far as the cash vs. plastic, one thing that drives me nuts is getting behind a slow-ass luddite using a check in a place that still takes them (grocery, etc).

Edited September 21, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[SAmadei]

As far as the cash vs. plastic, one thing that drives me nuts are getting behind a slow-ass luddite using a check in a place that still takes them (grocery, etc).

LOL, yes! That is something we can agree on!

[Robert Hall]

Honestly, I am very surprised to read this assertion about the apparent non-availability of using debit/credit in businesses in what I would assume are urban areas. As someone living in rural Pennsylvania, I simply find that perplexing. In my little town of less than 4,000 people, we have managed full availability of using credit/debit. We have no Walmart, no Target, no Lowes; no major nationwide shopping outlets. You'll see just a handful of fast food places, gas station chains, and hotels up on the boulevard. The majority of this town is kept alive and depends on local 'mom and pop' run businesses. Groceries, restaurants, hardware, pharmacies, apparel, alcohol, sports, etc. All of whom have accepted credit/debit for many years.

Maybe those cash only mom/pop businesses Samadei sees are Mafia connected, cash only businesses--he's in NY/NJ, right?

[Camino LS6]

I used debit cards almost exclusively for a long time, along with DD and automated payments. Now it's cash whenever possible, coming in and going out. Too many screwups with the electronic transactions, both by me and the bank.

I am enjoying the privacy and immediacy of using cash. I really don't want to leave electronic footprints everywhere.

[Intrepidation]

Well I'm not paranoid of the government looking at my transactions from places like the grocery store or gas station, so I use my debit card. Much faster than cash, no loose, useless change leftover that ends up lost in your car or home, it just stays in your account. I've never had an issue using my debit card as far as mix ups, and only need to use cash at some of the few places that only take cash (very few these days). Also, debits cards usually don't get charged fees..in fact I've never seen that, only for credit.

Fun fact: merchants cannot impose minimum or maximum charges.

• Purchase amounts: Merchants cannot impose minimum or maximum purchase amounts for credit card transactions.
  
• Surcharges: Merchants are prohibited from adding fees on to credit card purchases.
  

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/merchants-who-violate-credit-card-terms-1275.php

[SAmadei]

Maybe those cash only mom/pop businesses Samadei sees are Mafia connected, cash only businesses--he's in NY/NJ, right?

LOL, I've considered that, but I doubt it. My father's business used to see a lot of profit eaten via the merchant fees... I can see why some places wouldn't want to be bothered.

Fun fact: merchants cannot impose minimum or maximum charges.

Less fun fact. They do anyway... I got hit with a $5 minimum purchase just the other day... had to buy a soda and candy bar to get valve stems on plastic at the local hardware store. Also, had to pay "credit price" for gas, too, as I wasn't leaving the island to get "same price cash or credit".

Edit: typo.

Edited September 21, 2010 by SAmadei

[Intrepidation]

Apparently if you take a photo of the sign requiring a minimum and send it to the credit card company, they will sue the merchant and give you the fees the company lost out on...so I hear.

[Cory Wolfe]

Less fun fact. They do anyway... I got hit with a $5 minimum purchase just the other day... had to buy a soda and candy bar to get valve stems on plastic at the local hardware store. Also, had to pay "credit price" for gas, too, as I wasn't leaving the island to get "same price cash or credit".

That's definitely a city thing. I've only had to deal with that while in NYC or Detriot. Namely the different gas costs dependent on payment type. I had never heard of such a thing until I visited Detroit for the first time.

[Drew Dowdell]

The minimum purchase rule goes away at the end of this year.

I simply have too many transactions to NOT use electronic banking. 5 water bills, 5 mortgages, 5 sewer bills, 8 electric bills, 4 gas bills..... and on and on

[Croc]

Ummmmm......

Paper money has been obsolete for a while, no real point in redesigning it.

Yea, many of the best ethnic restaurants only take cash. Also, I love cash because there's no paper trail. Money under the table is amazing.

[SAmadei]

Apparently if you take a photo of the sign requiring a minimum and send it to the credit card company, they will sue the merchant and give you the fees the company lost out on...so I hear.

That sounds like something that should be on Snopes.

How are they going to determine the losses? Usually, there is no sign... its verbal. In the case I mention... its enforced by the credit machine provider! He tried to run the card for $2.99... it came back as too little.

Also, I doubt that if Exxon flaunts it on their big outdoor sign, that they haven't already run it by their lawyers.

[SAmadei]

That's definitely a city thing. I've only had to deal with that while in NYC or Detriot. Namely the different gas costs dependent on payment type. I had never heard of such a thing until I visited Detroit for the first time.

This happens all across rural South Jersey. The hardware example was in Absecon... town or suburbia, definitely not city.

[Drew Dowdell]

That sounds like something that should be on Snopes.

How are they going to determine the losses? Usually, there is no sign... its verbal. In the case I mention... its enforced by the credit machine provider! He tried to run the card for $2.99... it came back as too little.

Also, I doubt that if Exxon flaunts it on their big outdoor sign, that they haven't already run it by their lawyers.

I don't know about the getting the money back part, but DF is right that you can call the credit card company to complain and the merchant will get a fine from their bank.

However, as I said in an earlier post, that rule goes away at the end of 2010.

[Cory Wolfe]

This happens all across rural South Jersey. The hardware example was in Absecon... town or suburbia, definitely not city.

Eh, it's Jersey. You can't pump your own gas anyways.

[Robert Hall]

Eh, it's Jersey. You can't pump your own gas anyways.

Yeah, that's just plain weird...I encountered the same quaint regulation in Oregon. Very strange having someone pump the gas after decades of using self serve..

[balthazar]

^ How '1990' of you to still be pumping your own gas !

-- -- -- -- --

Unless you happen to pull up to the 'big trucker' diesel pumps- the screen asks you right off if you want to pay credit at the pump and no one ever comes over.

Been pumping my own fuel for years & years- at the bigger stations it's not hugely enforced. What's the BFD either way?

Edited September 21, 2010 by balthazar

[Camino LS6]

Well I'm not paranoid of the government looking at my transactions from places like the grocery store or gas station, so I use my debit card.

I'm alot less trusting these days, and it's not just the government watching your transactions...

[Robert Hall]

^ How '1990' of you to still be pumping your own gas !

Nah, full serve w/ a station attendant seems like something out of the 50s. Do they still check your oil in NJ? Or just put in the fuel?

[Camino LS6]

^ How '1990' of you to still be pumping your own gas !

-- -- -- -- --

Unless you happen to pull up to the 'big trucker' diesel pumps- the screen asks you right off if you want to pay credit at the pump and no one ever comes over.

Been pumping my own fuel for years & years- at the bigger stations it's not hugely enforced. What's the BFD either way?

Some Jersey politicians decided that the citizenry wasn't capable of pumping gas safely.

[Robert Hall]

Some Jersey politicians decided that the citizenry wasn't capable of pumping gas safely.

Too many suburban housewives w/ big hair causing explosions from using aerosol hairspray while smoking and/or talking on a cell phone and pumping gas?

Edited September 21, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

Could be.

[balthazar]

Moltie- you really should crowbar yourself out from in front of the TV once in a while- your barrage of boob tube cliche's is about the most '1950s' thing in this thread.

[Robert Hall]

Moltie- you really should crowbar yourself out from in front of the TV once in a while- your barrage of boob tube cliche's is about the most '1950s' thing in this thread.

LoL... I really need to get out of Arizona..the summer heat and desert ugliness has warped my mind. Need to go where it's green w/ cold, gray damp winters..

[loki]

I see no reason to destroy our paper currency with those ridiculous play money designs. Just update it to keep ahead of counterfeiters and that is enough.

it being printed is counterfeit in the first place. it's money that is made of material that is easily replicatable. paper, cotton, plastic, how much is it for a ream of paper? how is it logical that a small peice of "paper" can buy a ream of paper. how is the physical specs of a $1 not a 1/20 of a $20, we have gone from logical to illogical. if you put a hard to copy 20 on a car, why would that be worth 20 of any other car of the same type that has a 1 on it? a dollar should be the size of a stamp if a $20 is the size of one now. ...oh well, maybe in 5- 10 years stamps will cost a dollar and so they could effectively be used instead of the bills today.

[Drew Dowdell]

it being printed is counterfeit in the first place. it's money that is made of material that is easily replicatable. paper, cotton, plastic, how much is it for a ream of paper? how is it logical that a small peice of "paper" can buy a ream of paper. how is the physical specs of a $1 not a 1/20 of a $20, we have gone from logical to illogical. if you put a hard to copy 20 on a car, why would that be worth 20 of any other car of the same type that has a 1 on it? a dollar should be the size of a stamp if a $20 is the size of one now. ...oh well, maybe in 5- 10 years stamps will cost a dollar and so they could effectively be used instead of the bills today.

I've been saving this for a while, but somehow I just knew I'd be using it to reply to Loki.

[Blake Noble]

Well, I can see Loki's initial point. I think. I'm not sure what he started talking about when mentioned dollar bills and stamps, though.

FYI, in recent months there has been a counterfeit money issue in my area. People have been taking one dollar bills and forging older designed fives, twenties, and fifties with them. I even believe someone, somehow, managed to convert a one dollar bill into a new twenty dollar bill with some success. The money will pass a marker test. It isn't until you check the watermark you realize that you've been duped.

[Drew Dowdell]

I doubt you see Loki's point.... because it's such a confused one. Loki.. you really don't understand how currency works.

Gold is only valuable because we say it is and assign a specific value to it. Thus, a certain amount of gold can be traded for a certain number of loaves of bread.

The same goes for paper currency.... paper currency is like a check that doesn't need to be signed. It can be exchanged for a certain number of loaves of bread depending on the amount listed on the "Amount" line of the check.

If you break the meaning of currency down to it's absolute most basic meaning. Currency represents slices of time... and if you have currency, you can buy slices of other people's time.

[loki]

yes olds, i understand what it represents, but take the real "value" of the work put into the money, and that must mean the work was near worthless. bread is "cheap" cause it's been able to be made more than 1 loaf at a time, and the ingredients are a plenty. how fast can a printing press make $1s? now how is it possible to multiply that by any number one can fit on the same piece of paper in the same amount of time?...with no change in the amount of work done? it takes a smart person to duplicate paper in an accepted form of money, it takes an omnipotent being (alchemist?) to create matter out of nothing or change matter at the atomic level. if we could use our machines(atom smashers) to make gold, imagine how much energy and time it would take...

the same processes that have made products cheap, has made paper money cheap too. mining has come a long way, cyanide leaching and such, but that still takes lots of time and effort, something that cannot be simplified to the extent most anything else has been simplified.

the other side of this is that the law only makes silver and gold legal tender. that has never been legally changed. everyone using paper for legal tender is breaking the law.

edit

check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard#Theory

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard#Disadvantages ... Deflation rewards savers[24][25] and punishes debtors.

in this economy and everywhere a low savings rate occurs... this would be good for the few... but since we have to spend our way back to prosperity, we will not be prosperous again.

Edited September 22, 2010 by loki

[SAmadei]

Yeah, that's just plain weird...I encountered the same quaint regulation in Oregon. Very strange having someone pump the gas after decades of using self serve..

Its funny, I feel the same way when I'm out of Jersey... Why would anyone want to pump their own gas. Usually, I'll sit in the car for a few awkward moments until I realize I'm not in Jersey anymore...

Some Jersey politicians decided that the citizenry wasn't capable of pumping gas safely.

Actually, its real reason is to create jobs. Granted, crappy jobs... but jobs. Keep in mind, I like the feature... I'd rather pay $2.00 a gallon and have someone pump it than pay $2.30 in NY or PA and have to pump it myself.

Too many suburban housewives w/ big hair causing explosions from using aerosol hairspray while smoking and/or talking on a cell phone and pumping gas?

Its been law since 1949, so you can take your 1980s stereotypes and stick it. ;-)

[Intrepidation]

I'd rather pump my own gas, thanks.

[loki]

are you down rating me cause i have a point? ...legal, or the imaginary value of work it takes to make the money...

or because i repeat it over and over?

also under theory, it has to be wrong about representative money, ..unless it means backed money, exchangeable for predetermined amount that doesn't fluctuate.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Wow, you guys use debit a lot.

I'd say 99.9% of the time I use cold, hard cash.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Like Camino- I too have been moving toward more & more cash. Big ticket items & staples such as gas- I get cash back by using credit so I'll use it there, but there are many instances AND advantages to using cash over anything else. I deal frequently in parts buying/selling- no plastic there. I don't do ATM or debit- always have an eye toward simplification, and the less statements hitting my mailbox that I have to process, the better.

True that... I only use my account for long distance purchases and electronic bills. Usually, that means a trip to the bank where the EXACT amount is deposited, then removed almost immediately.

Funny, last time I cashed my check, my teller harassed me (jokingly) about never putting money in my account.

My bank lost my tax refund a few years ago. Since then, I'm not so trusting about depositing.

[Blake Noble]

I doubt you see Loki's point.... because it's such a confused one.

Hence the use of "I think" in my post.

[balthazar]

Recently listed 4 items on Craigslist. 2 of them got replies that were obvious scams, both centered around either a money order or a certified bank check, when the ad clearly stated 'cash only'.

These days it is so easy to forge a 'paper' form of payment (since there's so many different looking ones) vs. cash, that that is yet another reason to go with cash. Plus, individual people seldom take debit cards.

I would never deal with people I just met in any other form of currency.

[Intrepidation]

There's a big difference between a purchase on Craigslist and a purchase from Sears. Naturally you would use cash when buying or selling used items like that.

[balthazar]

Yet it's certainly possible to accept a mailed 'certified check' or some other form of electronic payment and get all wrapped up in a scammy mess- obviously it happens all the time.

The choice is there to be made: cash or non-cash, and some choose non-cash- to their great risk.

[loki]

something i thought about today. it's amazing that people accept payment in terms of paper, more so from people that shout for science and not religion, i'll call it faith...

my reasons.

1.the physical-ness of fiat, as i said, $1 is basically the same size as $100, only the ink is different. if you had a hundred $1 bills, it'd be common sense that a $100 should be the total space of those $1 bills. a child should know this, yet it's not "practical" so it has to become illogical.

2.under the constitution, anyone could mint gold and silver, but only mints that guaranteed it's purity and such would be regularly used in transactions. with fiat, because paper is so easily counterfeited the government has to monopolize that "service".

3. the size and material used under a gold (or gold/silver) standard would be proportional to the base coin used. the only flaw in that that the mint makes today is the 1/4 ounce gold coin, with a $10 face value when it should be $12.5. 1 ounce = $50.

4. with fiat, you're placing faith in the printers of the fiat that they don't inflate to steal your wealth, faith in people will always let you down. that can always be betted on. and this includes fractional reserve banking. “By this means (fractional reserve banking) government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft.” - John Maynard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1920)

with a gold standard, the standard can change, but the amount of physical property you own (as money) cannot be stolen as silently as it can be with the value put in paper.

bottom line. paper represents faith, and something as physical as the gold standard represents science.

did i clear up my view point a good deal?

[Paolino]

I think we do need increased usage of the $1 coin, but not to discontinue usage of the $1 bill.

Different sized bills for different denominations would make sense... it does make a currency easier to use.

Many people who come to this country find it difficult to get used to the same sized, same colored, currency for each denomination.

I wouldn't mind seeing an update to our currency. I'll be honest though, I debit 90% of the time, and rarely have more than 20 bucks in my wallet.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind seeing an update to the value of our currency compared to other countries, but that's another, more-heated topic entirely.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Paolino

[Robert Hall]

Working w/ banking systems, I don't even think of money in terms of paper money or gold..at work I see it in it's simplest form--just as numerical values--credits and debits--in a general ledger table of a database.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Satty]

1.the physical-ness of fiat, as i said, $1 is basically the same size as $100, only the ink is different. if you had a hundred $1 bills, it'd be common sense that a $100 should be the total space of those $1 bills. a child should know this, yet it's not "practical" so it has to become illogical.

Wow....just wow. I'm going to try to use your logic to buy a Jeep. This Jeep, 11,992 dollar bills would obviously not be the same size as the Jeep, so that wouldn't work, so what I'll do is give them this and they will then give me this as change. The mass will equal out, so its a good deal for everyone, right?

Edited September 25, 2010 by Satty

[loki]

Wow....just wow. I'm going to try to use your logic to buy a Jeep. This Jeep, 11,992 dollar bills would obviously not be the same size as the Jeep, so that wouldn't work, so what I'll do is give them this and they will then give me this as change. The mass will equal out, so its a good deal for everyone, right?

you misunderstood (probably on purpose). $100 should equal the size of 100 $1's. something worth a $100 that aren't $'s to begin with doesn't matter it's size.

if you paid in chickens, the other person would want the number of chickens their asking for, not 1 chicken you (or a few people you've never met and don't know their names) claim is worth many more.

[Satty]

I love the idea of a $100 bill be 100 times the size of a single. That would be roughly two feet wide and five feet long!

And if I knew how to put decimals in the right place, I'd know that it would actually be about 21x51 not 2x5.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Satty

[Intrepidation]

Yeah having a $100 bill be 100x the size of a $1 wouldn't be a massive inconvenience at all.

[Drew Dowdell]

If anything is an idiotic waste of time, it's trying to explain how currency works to Loki

[Blake Noble]

... Is Loki actually, in a nutshell, suggesting we do away with money and just deal with coins simply because they're each a different size?

How did I miss that?

You know what I do with change? I dump it into a Ziploc bag in the Camaro's center console and waste that money on cigarettes. I'd like to quit smoking. As long as I have change, I'm going to smoke. Loki's idea would essentially wind up killing me.

Then again, I see he doesn't like the idea of minted coins ... or at least I do.

God help me. My brain is so full of fuck right now.

I'm just going to go smoke.

Edited September 25, 2010 by whiteknight

[loki]

Working w/ banking systems, I don't even think of money in terms of paper money or gold..at work I see it in it's simplest form--just as numerical values--credits and debits--in a general ledger table of a database.

and when a decimal gets moved, one just inflated or deflated.

[SAmadei]

This is getting to be the funniest thread on CnG I've ever read.

So what we're getting at is that only weightlifters will be rich and the poor will need magnifying glasses. 454 $1 bills weigh one pound... so buying a car requires 66 pounds of money. You'll need a forklift to buy a house. On the other end of the spectrum, a penny will weigh one centigram... a large grain of sand. Good luck counting out exact change... at least you could weigh it.

This thread needs a HHGTTG quote:

Money

Monetary units - none. In fact there are three freely convertible currencies in the Galaxy, but none of them count. The Altairian Dollar has recently collapsed, the Flanian Pobble bead is only exchangeable for other Flanian Pobble Beads, and the Triganic Pu has its own very special problems. Its exchange rate of eight Ningis to one Pu is simple enough, but since a Ningi is a rubber coin six thousand eight hundred miles along each side, no one has ever collected enough to own one Pu. Ningis are not negotiable currency, because the Galactibanks refuse to deal in fiddling small change. From this basic premise it is very simple to prove that the Galactibanks are also the product of a deranged imagination.

[loki]

http://economics.about.com/cs/neoclassical/a/value_of_money.htm

So to answer your question, money has value because people believe that they will be able to exchange their money for goods and services in the future. This belief will persist so long as people do not fear future inflation. To avoid inflation, the government must ensure that the money supply does not increase too quickly.

believe.. sounds like religion...

wikipedia

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

when this cannot be proven, it is a statement of faith, no?

silver and gold have industrial uses, as well as aesthetic uses. this proves it's worth something.

you guys can laugh at me all you want, down rate me. but what i'm saying, you cannot dismiss as a falsehood.

....

and just in the past few days, didn't bernanke said a little inflation won't hurt? ...what has the price of commodites done, like gold and silver... hit new highs

a gallon of gas on the market before taxes is ~1/11 an ounce of silver. this has to be a new low, but we still think $2.50 is pretty damn expensive from 5 years ago.