Why can't GM control its dealerships?

[bowtie_dude]

http://www.courtesyonwheels.com/big_ed.php

Take a look at the top-right-hand box. A new Solstice for $29,999, plus tax and license. Why is it that dealers feel the need to circumvent GMs efforts to sell an affordable, desirable roadster by tacking on $10k+ onto the damn sticker?! I've got half a mind to go down to Courtesy, ask how much one is and make a point to laugh in the salesman's face. I really hope no one has bought a Solstice at that price. Ugh!

[Guest Josh]

Oh they have. The dealers can still charge it and the suckers will still pay for it.

I've read it is happening with the SKY too.

[ToniCipriani]

Are you sure this is a base model though?

There's no mention of equipment whatsoever.

[Hudson]

I don't see the problem.

A dealership is an independent company. They buy a product from a supplier (in this case, GM) and sell it to the public. When a product is in such demand that the dealer can ask more than list, it's their good business sense to do so. It's simple supply and demand and there's not good reason to sell a Solstice at list price if there's a waiting list of buyers.

This is why the "list price" is called the Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price.

[bowtie_dude]

Are you sure this is a base model though?

There's no mention of equipment whatsoever.

Upon second reading, it appears to be a loaded model. Leather and lots of options, according to the ad. So maybe its just a $5k tack on.

[bowtie_dude]

I don't see the problem.

A dealership is an independent company. They buy a product from a supplier (in this case, GM) and sell it to the public. When a product is in such demand that the dealer can ask more than list, it's their good business sense to do so. It's simple supply and demand and there's not good reason to sell a Solstice at list price if there's a waiting list of buyers.

This is why the "list price" is called the Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price.

Because, when someone goes to buy one, KNOWING what the price should be, they'll walk away empty handed because the dealer knows another idiot will come by that will be more than happy to pay the dealer's asking price and won't sell it to the more knowledgable customer.

[Newbiewar]

The dealership next to ours, is putting a 4k dollar mark up on them...

the only way GM can control these franchises, would be to have a corperate one... or increase the show room floor fee...

currently its on the corvette and probably on all models but our dealership only thinks about it when its about the corvette... the longer that thing sits in the dealership the more GM will charge the dealership for not selling it... and if the average (solstice) sells within 1 week and one dealership has it a whole month... there is something wrong...

thats my guess... of how GM could capitalize on it...

SATURN is charging premiums what happened to fixed pricing?

[Newbiewar]

I don't see the problem.

A dealership is an independent company. They buy a product from a supplier (in this case, GM) and sell it to the public. When a product is in such demand that the dealer can ask more than list, it's their good business sense to do so. It's simple supply and demand and there's not good reason to sell a Solstice at list price if there's a waiting list of buyers.

This is why the "list price" is called the Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price.

Then GM should take it away from them, and adjust the invoice price to make the vehicle more profitable for GM...

I'm certain that GM knows who is selling the vehicles for full retail, and who is charging extra...

GM should have that part of the CSI score... if they paid more then MSRP, the dealership should get a lower CSI score... thus they dont have a very good choice when they are ordering vehicles...

[ToniCipriani]

If it is fully loaded (as in fully fully loaded), then it really isn't that far off:

http://www.pontiac.com/byo/buildSummary.pg...rand=DIVISIONAL

[the_yellow_dart]

Man, if all dealers get charged for how long it takes them to sell product, the dealership I bought my car at in Brantford is SCREWED. They still have a brand new '04 XLR demo that they can't get rid of.

[Hudson]

Then GM should take it away from them, and adjust the invoice price to make the vehicle more profitable for GM...

I'm certain that GM knows who is selling the vehicles for full retail, and who is charging extra...

GM should have that part of the CSI score... if they paid more then MSRP, the dealership should get a lower CSI score... thus they dont have a very good choice when they are ordering vehicles...

CSI should remain tied to customer satisfaction. If buyers are happy with the price and service they receive, the dealer should get an appropriately high CSI.

Just because the price they're asking is more than the price that you're expecting doesn't mean there is something wrong. It's just that you don't want to pay that much for the car, which is fine too. How much is a Solstice worth to you? Are there 20,000 buyers willing to pay more than you? Why should a Pontiac dealer sell it to you if they only have 20,000 to sell?

If I were in the market for a Solstice, I wouldn't like this practice either...but it's business. Aren't you mad that the Bugatti Veyron isn't priced below $20,000? Me, too...but they'll sell every one they build at the price they're asking.

Again, MSRP is a SUGGESTED price, not a law. All products you buy have a "suggested" price but few of them are actually sold at that price...whether the final price is higher or lower.

When you sell your house and you get more money than you were asking, the law of supply and demand is a good thing. But when you want a car at a lower price than they're willing to sell it, it's a bad thing and some people claim the dealers are gouging, which they aren't.

The other reason for such high prices is that these popular vehicles draw potential buyers. I remember Dodge Vipers with asking prices in excess of TRIPLE the MSRP. This prevented the guy with $55,000 from buying the car off the showroom floor before potential buyers of lesser products got a chance to see it. Same thing happened with the Buick GNX and the Mazda Miata and the Corvette ZR1.

If you want a Solstice, shop around for the dealer willing to sell you one at the lowest price.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Yes, some SATURN dealers are trying to capitalize on the demand of the SKY. Thankfully mine isn't one of these dealers. It seems as if a lot of the SATURN dealers in California are upcharging the SKY, between $2K and $5K over MSRP. I think that anyone who pays OVER msrp is nuts. Dealers make a good profit at MSRP, they just want to be greedy (it's my :twocents: ) There are several Pontiac dealers near me with 2,3 or more Solstices sitting on the lots, for over two months now! And most of those Sols have $5K attached to them. But they know Spring is around the corner and people will want convertibles. And those that buy with an upcharge must like being raped by a dealer. I can't wait to meet a Solstice owner when I have my SKY and let them know I got it at MSRP and without haggling for it

[Brougham-Holiday]

I hate GM dealerships,

I went to get a set of keys made for my Bonneville they charged me $46 for an ignition key (the car is 14 yrs old cant the price come down some?) and they didnt have a door key. I asked if he could check to see of the other local dealers had one and he said they dont stock them anymore. He then suggested I go to Home Depot to get a key made. If they can sell the car shouldnt they sell they key too?

I went there for a turn signal lens for my Olds, $51 for a box that had a pack date of August 31,1989 and was covered in dust.

I went to another GM dealer to get a key made for my Olds and the guy threw my keys at me when he was done copying it and complained that the key was hard to find. Then the rude cashier almost screwed me out of a few $ but I cought her mistake.

GM needs to clean house.

[PurdueGuy]

I agree it's stupid for Saturn to be jacking up the price, but they have a "no-haggle" policy, not really fixed pricing. They generally just go by the MSRP, but the dealerships still have the ability to set their own price. IMO, it's a great way to alienate customers.

[PontiacTechNJ]

I hate GM dealerships,

I went to get a set of keys made for my Bonneville they charged me $46 for an ignition key (the car is 14 yrs old cant the price come down some?) and they didnt have a door key. I asked if he could check to see of the other local dealers had one and he said they dont stock them anymore. He then suggested I go to Home Depot to get a key made. If they can sell the car shouldnt they sell they key too?

I went there for a turn signal lens for my Olds, $51 for a box that had a pack date of August 31,1989 and was covered in dust.

I went to another GM dealer to get a key made for my Olds and the guy threw my keys at me when he was done copying it and complained that the key was hard to find. Then the rude cashier almost screwed me out of a few $ but I cought her mistake.

GM needs to clean house.

What kind of a job do you have ? Does your company charge for your services ? Do you know your Bonneville is a pass key and even takes extra time reading your old code to get the right key ? I bet your key has list price probably higher than you paid ? Do you think this country was built on giving things away for free ?

Guys at dealerships are not in the employ of General Motors , they are employed by independent companies authorized to sell and service GM cars and trucks , our customers are constantly surveyed about everything at the dealer , from service to appearance of the building to politeness of the employees .

Edited March 8, 2006 by PontiacTechNJ

[zhawk]

Both of the Pontiac dealerships near me are charging a $5K markup for the Solstice. Heck, they have a markup on just about everything. Meanwhile our local Saturn dealerships told me that they won't markup the Sky.

I am getting tired of these dealers marking up things like this. I do understand about free markets but lets get real. Once of our Pontiac dealers has 3 GTOs and can't move them but insists on keeping the markups and won't sell the cars without them.

[Hudson]

Both of the Pontiac dealerships near me are charging a $5K markup for the Solstice. Heck, they have a markup on just about everything. Meanwhile our local Saturn dealerships told me that they won't markup the Sky.

I am getting tired of these dealers marking up things like this. I do understand about free markets but lets get real. Once of our Pontiac dealers has 3 GTOs and can't move them but insists on keeping the markups and won't sell the cars without them.

If a dealer actually makes money on marking up vehicles...especially a GM dealer, more power to them. If these vehicles are making money (by luring buyers to other vehicles), they're doing their job. I don't think they are...and they can't have "everything" marked up because there's no place in the US where Pontiacs are in such demand that everyone's unloading their bank accounts into the salesmans' hands.

I'm sure if such a place existed, GM would have marketing people there analyzing the situation.

[97regalGS]

all you guys complaining about markup must just march right into a dealer when it's time to buy a new car, look at the sticker price and pull out your check book and pay full pop. NOT!

get your head out of the sand.

[prinzSD]

The dealership near me has 6 Solstice. Five have the MSRP at $25,000 and they all are marked up between $5,995 to $6,995. The other one is the stripo at $20,000 plus the $4,995 markup. They claim he has had to buy them from other dealerships and had to pay the markups. This dealership has sold many of the local Solstice. I guess if people will pay, then it's good for Pontiac. It makes the car a little more desirable, which is something Pontiac has not had lately.

Edited March 10, 2006 by prinzSD

[prinzSD]

If a dealer actually makes money on marking up vehicles...especially a GM dealer, more power to them. If these vehicles are making money (by luring buyers to other vehicles), they're doing their job. I don't think they are...and they can't have "everything" marked up because there's no place in the US where Pontiacs are in such demand that everyone's unloading their bank accounts into the salesmans' hands.

I'm sure if such a place existed, GM would have marketing people there analyzing the situation.

Are you suggesting that there is no demand for the Solstice or am I reading it wrong. If that is what you mean, you are way off basis because there are plenty of places where there is a demand for the Solstice. Please clarify for me, thanks.

[Hudson]

Are you suggesting that there is no demand for the Solstice or am I reading it wrong. If that is what you mean, you are way off basis because there are plenty of places where there is a demand for the Solstice. Please clarify for me, thanks.

Not the Solstice...the rest of the Pontiac line.

[zhawk]

If a dealer actually makes money on marking up vehicles...especially a GM dealer, more power to them. If these vehicles are making money (by luring buyers to other vehicles), they're doing their job. I don't think they are...and they can't have "everything" marked up because there's no place in the US where Pontiacs are in such demand that everyone's unloading their bank accounts into the salesmans' hands.

I'm sure if such a place existed, GM would have marketing people there analyzing the situation.

I was serious, this one dealer has almost every car on their lot marked up. This is not a joke.

I have NEVER paid a markup on a new vehicle. I have told dealerships to forget it if they want my business. And, yes, I have been able to get the car. Right now there is no car out there I want so badly as to an extra $5000 or more on it.

[rivieraranch]

Man, if all dealers get charged for how long it takes them to sell product, the dealership I bought my car at in Brantford is SCREWED. They still have a brand new '04 XLR demo that they can't get rid of.

"can't" or "won't?"

Dealers that keep holdovers way beyond the new year are so greedy that you can't make a deal with them, on anything. When a salesman pitches a held over model I react with surprise that they still have it and say that if the dealer was reasonable to begin with it wouldn't be there.

At the end of the year there are all kinds of incentives and end of year money on these vehicles but some dealers want to keep all of it instead of being reasonable and negotiating on these holdovers.

A demo is essentially a used car anyway but they act like the demos are plated with gold. The dealer who has a held over '04 is run by flaming a-holes. stay away.

Edited March 12, 2006 by rivieraranch

[rivieraranch]

The short answer to the question is that they lack the will to identify the 100 worst franchisees and yank their franchises. This would send a message that the others should fall into line. They could do this. There is a dealer or 2 in almost every major metro area that nobody who lives there wants to deal with. Unfortunately the internet has given these crooked buzzards a new lease on life.

GM is suffering because some of their dealers mistreat people who are out looking to buy, commit crooked and horrendous hatchet jobs in the service area, rape and pillage buyers in closing rooms and in the finance office, "steal" trades, put jalopies held together with band aids on the used car lot.

Other dealers are staffed with consumate professionals who treat people well and they seem to make a handsome profit - the difference is the good dealers deserve the money they make because they earn it - the bad ones are staffed with fly-by-night thieves and scoundrels.

Maybe if GM goes bankrupt they can begin a corporate owned sales network that treats people like they should be treated.

[CARBIZ]

Whoa, there is a whole lot of bitterness here. Walk a mile in another man's shoes...anybody every hear of that?

You should rent the movie Suckers. Although exaggerated and hilarioius, there are some interesting points. The sales manager asks the sales staff during one meeting if they think that customers care if they make any money, and wouldn't a customer rip off a dealer any way they can?

I have seen both sides. Recently, a good customer walked out of the parts department with a thousand dollars worth of goodies for his SSR by convincing the manager that the salesman (who was on holidays at the time) had promised him them. The salesman had to pay for it out of his pocket! I was there for the confrontation with the customer and the guy just shrugged and walked away.

People don't seem to mind getting discounts off MSRP, so why shouldn't the dealer charge more when they can? I am sure there are dealers out there making a lot of money, but the last stats I saw for Canada (put out my Macleans magazine and DesRosiers marketting a few years ago) indicated that most dealers LOST money in their new car show room.

Many GTA area dealers still have 2004 Monte Carlo INtimidators on ground. Do you think GM gives a damn? Can you imagine the interest on 18 months worth of a $35,000 car? GM armtwists the dealers into ordering certain vehicles to keep the plant moving, then leave the dealer holding the bag.

I agree that GM should take control of the dealer network so that the MSRP can be the SELLING PRICE. That is as it should be. Believe me, most salespeople don't like the games either, but it usually is the customer who is playing them, in my experience.

[rivieraranch]

Whoa, there is a whole lot of bitterness here.  Walk a mile in another man's shoes...anybody every hear of that?

  You should rent the movie Suckers.  Although exaggerated and hilarioius, there are some interesting points.  The sales manager asks the sales staff during one meeting if they think that customers care if they make any money, and wouldn't a customer rip off a dealer any way they can?

  I have seen both sides.  Recently, a good customer walked out of the parts department with a thousand dollars worth of goodies for his SSR by convincing the manager that the salesman (who was on holidays at the time) had promised him them. The salesman had to pay for it out of his pocket!  I was there for the confrontation with the customer and the guy just shrugged and walked away.

  People don't seem to mind getting discounts off MSRP, so why shouldn't the dealer charge more when they can?  I am sure there are dealers out there making a lot of money, but the last stats I saw for Canada (put out my Macleans magazine and DesRosiers marketting a few years ago) indicated that most dealers LOST money in their new car show room.

  Many GTA area dealers still have 2004 Monte Carlo INtimidators on ground.  Do you think GM gives a damn?  Can you imagine the interest on 18 months worth of a $35,000 car?  GM armtwists the dealers into ordering certain vehicles to keep the plant moving, then leave the dealer holding the bag.

  I agree that GM should take control of the dealer network so that the MSRP can be the SELLING PRICE.  That is as it should be.  Believe me, most salespeople don't like the games either, but it usually is the customer who is playing them, in my experience.

I grant you that there are some crooks who try and con the dealer, too. I don't believe that the customers are more gamey than, lets say, the front office. I think the sales people are in the middle in thie struggle.

The markup on the Solstices is just a reflection of their relative newness and scarcity; it is going to happen initially; I don't have a problem with that. I just hate all the dealers in my area because of all the nonsense. Luckily there is a good salesman at a lousy dealer and I can deal with him. I am between vehicles and am waiting until March Madness to make a move on a new GM, probably a lease.

[prinzSD]

Not the Solstice...the rest of the Pontiac line.

Well, then I have to agree with you.

[Newbiewar]

from what my salepeople say, they inflate the sticker just so "post" negociation they arrive at sticker... because our customers are like when we tell them we dont discount nor mark up our corvettes... the stickerprice... take it or leave it...

[Hudson]

I was serious, this one dealer has almost every car on their lot marked up. This is not a joke.

I have NEVER paid a markup on a new vehicle. I have told dealerships to forget it if they want my business. And, yes, I have been able to get the car. Right now there is no car out there I want so badly as to an extra $5000 or more on it.

I'm serious as well. The great thing about how GM has over-extended itself is that the biggest competition for a GM dealer is another GM dealer. If you don't the price or service, or treatment you get at one dealer, the next dealer isn't all that far away. This is how you take advantage of supply and demand. They have an over supply of dealers and a limited and dwindling demand for their products. If you want a Pontiac, the next closest Pontiac dealer can't be all that far away. In the rural area where I grew up, my neighbor owned the local Pontiac dealer...but there were three or four more dealers within 40 miles.

Any product is only worth as much as you are willing to pay for it. If it's worth list price (or marked up) to you, you'd pay the local dealer's prices. But it's obviously not that way. Find someone who is willing to sell it to you for the price you want to pay. Easy as that.