Does Buick need another sedan?

[Northstar]

With news of Buick getting a RWD sedan, I have been wondering if Buick even needs another sedan. Currently, as we all know, Buick only has two sedans, the LaCrosse and Lucerne.

The next LaCrosse will be moving to Epsilon II and the future of the Lucerne is uncertain because the future of the G-Body platform is also uncertain. The next LaCrosse will likely be smaller than the current model, as currently Epsilon vehicles are almost ten inches shorter than the LaCrosse, and W-Body suffers from long overhangs. We also have heard that Epsilon II will be slightly larger than Epsilon; so, let's assume the next LaCrosse will be somewhere around 190-193 inches.

Now, both the Lucerne and RWD sedan would be positioned above the LaCrosse, but are two sedans above the LaCrosse even needed? The Lucerne is currently 203 inches long, which is pretty large by today's standards, and I see no reason for a Buick any bigger than the Lucerne, simply because I don't see enough demand to justify building something bigger.

I don't think Buick needs 3 sedans. Chevy only has 1 sedan above their Epsilon, and Chevy is supposed to offer something for everyone. So, if Chevy doesn't have two sedans above Epsilon, I can't justify Buick having two.

Anyways, enough with the rambling... I don't think GM would want to spend the money on two big Buicks when the same volume could probably be attained with just one. So, I think that either 1) The Lucerne and "Statesman" will co-exist for a couple of years until the Lucerne is phased out, or 2) (and this is what I think should happen) The next Lucerne simply goes RWD. The Lucerne is a very competitive vehicle in today's market, and I feel by the time it needs to be replaced its image with consumers will be very positive, so dropping the name and losing any positive image earned with it would be dumb. Also, by simply focusing on one model above the LaCrosse, Buick and spend more on one model (rather than spreading it out on two) and make a better vehicle.

So, I propose that GM moves the next Lucerne to RWD, invest more heavily in it than it would if it had to spread the money around to two models, and use any extra money to spin a coupe and possible convert off of the Lucerne (Velite or Riveria). Maybe there would even be enough to spin a Buick off of the BRX.

[Croc]

I agree. I think Buick needs a Fullsized RWD sedan and a RWD coupe/convertible. I would love to see this be Invicta (2000 LaCrosse concept-based) and Riviera (Velite-based).

Buick is getting the Enclave. I think Buick needs to have something smaller than Enclave as well. I honestly would not have problems with a Kappa either.

Invicta

Riviera

LaCrosse (needs new name for move to Ep-II)

Enclave

sub-Enclave

(Kappa?)

That's pretty full-line even without the Kappa.

[ocnblu]

I agree with you guys about the top of the line, but I still think Buick needs something sub-Epsilon. That Torana concept sedan would make an awesome entry-level car for Buick, they really need something small and youthful to act as a hook to lure younger customers. Think of it with the 2.4L Ecotec standard (two Ventiports?), 2.8 DI and maybe 3.6 DI optional. Like Croc says, a Kappa Buick, with V6 power and a GT as opposed to all-out sport persona, could be a key as well.

[bring_BUICK_back]

Buick needs more than just vehicles. They need a deisgn theme. They need power. They need Coupes, Verts. And they need it now! Not 2008 or 2010 but NOW. And get rid of these crazy names like Envlave, Lacrosse, Lucerne. Buick is and will always be Electra, Riveiera, Regal, Century, Invicta, Skyklark

GM has done a great disservice to Buick since the late 80's

[ehaase]

Buick does not need more than two sedans. Since most Buick dealers also sell Pontiacs, Buick and Pontiac do not need more than 3 or 4 vehicles each. If GM ever has the funds to develop something like the Torana concept sedan, that vehicle should be marketed as a Pontiac. I see Buick having nothing more than LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave, unless market conditions and GM's finances improve enough to eventually develop a luxury coupe and convertible.

[bring_BUICK_back]

GM has the money and the resources. They just don't how to allocate them correctly. GM does need SAAB, Hummer, Saturn, Opel, Vauxhill, GMC. They need to concentrate on their core brands. The ones that have been around for decades. Buick, Caddy, Chevy, Pontiac. They need to figure out how to differentiate these vehciles. Not just brand engernering. Chevy does not need all the vehicles it has way to many vehicles. They do not need the Corvette, HHR or SSR it does not fit what they are all about. They are suppose to be value. None of those are value. Buick on the other hand needs performance and technology.

[ocnblu]

Wait a minute, BBB... Corvette is untouchable. Take a look at the sticker price of a Corvette and compare it to the competition... it is THE embodiment of "bang for the buck"... the greatest value in the sports car world.

The HHR is very nicely priced and is a well-presented vehicle. I will give you the SSR, but it's a goner anyway.

I am not saying Buick should be shortchanged or neglected. Buick is still a strong brand... but Buick is here today in part because Chevrolet, GM's workhorse brand, has managed to stay successful and bring money into the corporation.

GM fans need to stop this infighting, imo.

Edited March 5, 2006 by ocnblu

[bring_BUICK_back]

Wait a minute, BBB... Corvette is untouchable.  Take a look at the sticker price of a Corvette and compare it to the competition... it is THE embodiment of "bang for the buck"... the greatest value in the sports car world.

The HHR is very nicely priced and is a well-presented vehicle.  I will give you the SSR, but it's a goner anyway.

I am not saying Buick should be shortchanged or neglected.  Buick is still a strong brand... but Buick is here today in part because Chevrolet, GM's workhorse brand, has managed to stay successful and bring money into the corporation.

GM fans need to stop this infighting, imo.

What I am saying is. Buick needs vehicles, Chevy does not need every singel segment in the market. They are robbing paul to give to peter. If they allocated there cars according to what that division is meant to be then Corvette, HHR and SSR do not belong. Buick was suppose to get a 3 billion dollar investment What happened to that? And the only reason Chevy is successful is because GM has never given it's full atttention to the other brands. F** everyone else and now look what is happening.

[Flybrian]

One thing we need to ditch pronto is this 'Corvette needs the most hp' bull$h!.

[ocnblu]

Agreed. That's an outdated notion. A 500 hp Buick Invicta sedan (just an example) still won't kill a 'Vette on the track, so what's the big deal? It will kill its sedan competition though, and that's what GM needs.

[Flybrian]

Agreed.  That's an outdated notion.  A 500 hp Buick Invicta sedan (just an example) still won't kill a 'Vette on the track, so what's the big deal?  It will kill its sedan competition though, and that's what GM needs.

And even if it did, whoop-de-do. You would think making a large coupe, a sedan, or even a truck or SUV perform equal to or better than the Corvette would be a mark of achievement, even for GM. But no...

I have no problem with Chevrolet being full line, they need to be. However, those in charge should never forget that Pontiac and Buick always need to offer something better than a plain Chevy.

[ocnblu]

Even if GM decides never to produce a car that outperforms its own Corvette, there is still considerable room to wiggle and nip at the Corvette's heels.

I posted my "ideal Pontiac lineup" in that thread, and like I said there, Buick and Pontiac should have 6.0L V8 power at the top of their Zeta sedan option lists, while Chevrolet sticks with 5.3L power for the next Impala and Monte Carlo (ironic as that may be, since the LS engines descend from the legendary smallblock Chevy).

[Cananopie]

Buick does need another car. Not another truck. Buick's have always been car-based and I think 2 is at LEAST 1 too short of enough.

And there should no way be 3 sedans. Get a coupe/convertible in there to finally once and for all get rid of the old tyme Buick idea. For instance if the LaCrosse concept or the Velite concept were to be put in to production people will look at the production LaCrosse and the production Lucerne and even the production Enclave in a whole new light...

because THIS is the same company that makes one of THOSE cars. Buick is in desperate need for the gimme-car. The Enclave is good for Buick's SUV image but not for the sedan image. Buick needs a coupe/convertible and they need it soon and it needs to be RWD.

Edited March 5, 2006 by Cananopie

[titan]

Buick needs three cars, two crossovers, and the velite.

[04monteintimidator]

id love to see a RWD buick coupe... altho i dont think it should be the velite... the velite is more of a roadster car... ala solstice... going along with the kappa idea i think they should put a velite-esque vehicle on kappa... and for a RWD coupe go with Riviera or Skylark... then put the lucerne on a RWD platform, keep the lacrosse and enclave and then buick has all it needs

Lucerne

LaCrosse

Riviera/Skylark

Enclave

Velite Kappa

[sciguy_0504]

I see Buick having 3 cars: entry-lux, mid-lux and high-end. Entry and mid should have FWD and high-end should have RWD. Add Velite and one small and large crossover, and you have the complete Buick lineup.

[Northstar]

I see Buick having 3 cars:  entry-lux, mid-lux and high-end.  Entry and mid should have FWD and high-end should have RWD.  Add Velite and one small and large crossover, and you have the complete Buick lineup.

Should the sedan be bigger than the Lucerne then? IMO, there's not a whole lot of market for anything bigger than the Lucerne.

[titan]

I see Buick having 3 cars:  entry-lux, mid-lux and high-end.  Entry and mid should have FWD and high-end should have RWD.  Add Velite and one small and large crossover, and you have the complete Buick lineup.

I'm almost with you. The entire car lineup should be RWD. But I understand that the next LaX will be on EPII,and that's really a great compromise. A mid lux (next Lucerene) and High lux (flaship) can share a platform and be completely different cars. Add the Velite to that to continue to spread costs, and you've got a winning proposition. Add to that the Enclave and small SUV, and there's your lineup.

[sciguy_0504]

Should the sedan be bigger than the Lucerne then? IMO, there's not a whole lot of market for anything bigger than the Lucerne.

I was thinking somewhat along the lines of Acura. An entry-level FWD car (a little bit smaller than the current LaCrosse; Passat-sized), a mid-size FWD car (slightly smaller than the current Lucerne size) and a large car (slightly larger than the current Lucerne, Grand Marquis-ish). I think there is a market for it, especially if it is RWD. The entire lineup should not be RWD because that is Cadillac's territory.

I can see where you are coming from, though. I kind of cringe at having a smaller Buick than the LaCrosse but the entry-level car could change the way people look at Buick and effect the average buying age positively.

[Northstar]

I think the LaCrosse needs to be ES sized (192 or so inches) and then have something Lucerne sized above that. Maybe it's just me, but it just seems like having something between the two would create overlap. The next LaCrosse should offer the same interior dimensions as the current one but in a smaller exterior because it won't suffer from W-Body overhangs. Also, I feel the bigger-than-Lucerne market is mostly dead, but again, that could just be me.

[titan]

I think there is a market for it, especially if it is RWD.  The entire lineup should not be RWD because that is Cadillac's territory.

That's the thinking that will kill Buick. Buick can't have RWD because of Caddy? I disagree. There is PLENTY of room for Buick to be a luxuious, powerful car company who's strengths are classly looks, quiet interiors, and high quality, while being priced at an advantage to Lexus (their stated benchmark), withough stepping all over Caddy. Period. The next LAX should be on FWD for obivious reasons, but there's no reason (with the flexible possiblities of the modern platform) that they can't have a RWD Luceren, Flagship, and Velite for the rest of the car lineup. This stupid mentatlity that we just can't afford to hurt poor Caddy's feelings at all costs has got to end.

[ponchoman49]

I would like to see an entry level Epsilon II car prices below 20K maybe with the 3500 VVT and a normal helping of std features for the money. Call it a Century. Then have the same car available as a LaCrosse with more features and a std 3.6 DOHC engine and sportier handling. Keep the Lucerne and add the rear drive full size model called Invicta or whatever with std V8 power and top shelf luxury as Buick's flagship maybe replacing the Lucerne CXS version. With the dissapearance of the Ranier truck, maybe a 2 door coupe called Riviera also on the same rear drive chassis as the Invicta. The Enclave can be the crossover and take the place of the defunct Terazza and there you have it. Also for 07, lets kill and bury the tired 3800 engine, make the 3.6 std on the Lucerne with a 6 speed automatic trans, give the current LaCrosse the 3900 as std with the 287 hp 3.6 as the uplevel engine, clean up the exterior of the LaCrosse and make a sendoff special edition Terazza with 3900 motor and lots of emenities for a final 500 run.

[Chicagoland]

Zeta RWD car [statesman], Lucerne [still a big market for FWD large cars], and an Ep2 LaCrosse.

No Delta/Cobalt based car at all. Go to Chevy.

Edited March 10, 2006 by Chicagoland

[MyerShift]

YES!

Buick needs its flagship rear-drive luxury sedan.

Buick could be all rear-drive, it would befit the company's image.

One front drive automobile or two wouldn't hurt, a mix would keep/lure new customers just as rear-drive products would hurt.

A rear drive coupe a la Riviera would be cool too.

[titan]

YES!

Buick needs its flagship rear-drive luxury sedan.

Buick could be all rear-drive, it would befit the company's image.

One front drive automobile or two wouldn't hurt, a mix would keep/lure new customers just as rear-drive products would hurt.

A rear drive coupe a la Riviera would be cool too.

^ Thankyou. I'm tired of being the only one who says that. If Buick's goal is to be a value lux brand, it should have product accordingly. RWD is needed for all cars, except maybe the Lacrosse. It makes to much sense to put the next gen on EPII, so leave it FWD. The next Lucerne and Statesman, along with a Velite, could be built off of Zeta. IMO, Buick's pricing should mimick Acura's, with comprehensively equipped loaded cars to start with, at a value price. That would help to differenitiate them from Caddy, while postitioning them as a lux value alternative to Lexus (which is how they want to be seen). There should be NO small cars in the lineup; no sub-$30K cars in the lineup... leave the small premium car segment to Saturn's next Ion. I think an EPII LaX, with standard leather, sunroof, six disc changer,bluetooth,power fronts seats w/memory,heated/cooled front seats,Quietuning, REAL wood accents and 17"wheels. All of this should come on the EPII in a completely unique Buick wrapper with a beautiful, Buick interior (we all know that's possible; look at the G6/9-3/Malibu). This will help justify a price higher than some of it's cousins (and GM won't get the flack Ford got for being lazy with the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr triplet). Start the car at $29,990, and they'll fly out of the showroom. Options should be limited to an upgrade in sound system, a navi, and maybe something unique like a glass roof. I don't necessarily see a need for the Super trim in Buick's future lineup. If so, instead of having an up level trim like the Caddy's V-Series, which is more of a true performance package like the AMG and M from Benz and BMW, the Super should focus on quiet, American power. The Super should be more cosmetic, and geared towards touring; give the cars a larger engine and a tastefully cosmetic appearance package with 18"s, a revised front fascia, etc. I equip the RWD Lucerne similarly (fully loaded), and continue to offer two engines; the 3.6L @270-290HP and the 4.7L V8 that will go in the Lucerne making 350-360HP, and the RWD flag having the V8 only. These HP figures for the future are under the assumption that the future Caddy V6 HP threshold will be 300+, and the V8 will be around 390+, staying competitive with Infiniti, Lexus, and the Germans.