Project Toronado

[SAmadei]

Even with a good alternator, the drop is there, and costing you brightness... the question is, is it worth doing the work to squeeze more lighting out of one's headlights.

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't doubt that the drop is there, but I'd like to see what I get back to with the new alternator first.

[Drew Dowdell]

Wow! What a difference. The alternator must have been a problem since I bought the car and then I replaced it with another bad one.

headlights are much brighter

she starts first time every time now (after the initial recharge of the battery), and quickly too, I was planning on looking at the fuel pump in the spring because she usually took two tries to start.

She even seems to idle better, though it could be my imagination.

[Camino LS6]

Glad to hear it!

[A Horse With No Name]

Fantastic...time to keep this baby on the road!

[SAmadei]

I wouldn't doubt if it is idling better with a hotter spark.

[Drew Dowdell]

On Sunday she took 2nd place in the 80-89 Full Size class.

and again was the only Toronado on the show field. However, there is another club member who owns a '70 Toronado that I've never seen because he is terminally ill. He did manage to visit the show, though without his car. I took some time out of visiting the show to come back to my car when he visited. He spent a lot of time going around my car with me and was very happy that some "new blood" brought a Toronado to the show. He shook my hand and thanked me for bringing my car. I was happy and sad at the same time.

Her reward for winning second place was a two day trip to Brook's Buick-GMC where Dominic works for a new exhaust system from the engine back, new ball joints, new idler and pitman arms, and an alignment.

I can't wait to get her back tonight and see how she drives.

Side note: I spent most of Saturday driving around a 2008 Benz S550. While it has a fine engine and handling, getting back into my Toronado made me realize how much of a great investment she was. For $2,300, I have a car that brings me far more enjoyment than a $100k Benz could.

[ocnblu]

Congratulations, Drew!

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh she is great! I want to go back out and drive!

[2005 EquinoxLS]

Glad to see someone else liking a car of this era. I love it!!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

Time for a carb rebuild.... I'm deciding if i'm going to tackle it on my own or just send it out.

[G. David Felt]

Awesome Olds, sounds like an awesome ride. I am also another person that loves to get out on the road and drive. I can just have tunes playing and enjoy driving. A great way to see america and enjoy a road trip. Too bad so many people want to tune out the world and road trips all for being hooked on Facebook or playing some game.

This is the reason all my auto's have over 200K miles. I drive them and keep them in as nice as condition as possible.

[SAmadei]

Time for a carb rebuild.... I'm deciding if i'm going to tackle it on my own or just send it out.

Why are you rebuilding it? Some problems will be fixed by rebuilding, but others can be adjusted out.

Judging from your mechanical prowess, I would say try it. The rebuild kits are $35 and aren't as complicated as we think they are... I would also replace any vacuum or solenoid parts on the outside. I would check how much play you have where the butterfly pivots are... and see if the kit has bushings that can be installed, otherwise, this can become a vacuum leak once you clean out the carb. Buying a second carb for cheap might be a good idea if you think you have bent parts (or just rebuilding the second carb, so you limit your downtime).

I've rebuilt 2 carbs in my days... about 18~20 years ago when I was much more the newb (and didn't have the Internet as a crutch)... the first one was a Monojet and it came out so-so... but the carb was really clapped out. The second was an older Quadrajet and it came out sweet. I would have rebuilt more, but my '80s cars didn't really need it... and then fuel injection became the norm. It was a very satisfying process.

[A Horse With No Name]

I've rebuilt carbs before, they came out fine...

give it a try!

[Drew Dowdell]

Time for a carb rebuild.... I'm deciding if i'm going to tackle it on my own or just send it out.

Why are you rebuilding it? Some problems will be fixed by rebuilding, but others can be adjusted out.

Judging from your mechanical prowess, I would say try it. The rebuild kits are $35 and aren't as complicated as we think they are... I would also replace any vacuum or solenoid parts on the outside. I would check how much play you have where the butterfly pivots are... and see if the kit has bushings that can be installed, otherwise, this can become a vacuum leak once you clean out the carb. Buying a second carb for cheap might be a good idea if you think you have bent parts (or just rebuilding the second carb, so you limit your downtime).

I've rebuilt 2 carbs in my days... about 18~20 years ago when I was much more the newb (and didn't have the Internet as a crutch)... the first one was a Monojet and it came out so-so... but the carb was really clapped out. The second was an older Quadrajet and it came out sweet. I would have rebuilt more, but my '80s cars didn't really need it... and then fuel injection became the norm. It was a very satisfying process.

The reason for the rebuild is this: the throttle position sensor is bad and it is buried deep enough into the carb that if you're digging that deep you might as well do a full rebuild. This carb model also has an issue with gas leakdown requiring epoxy on 4 spots under the carb.

I don't think there is anything drastically wrong with the carb other than being 30 years old and pushing 100k miles. The leakdown does make her run a bit rich and it isn't something you can adjust out.

[SAmadei]

I don't remember the TPS sensors on these being too deeply rooted into the carb, but I don't have a diagram of one handy. I thought I swapped one of these on the '86 307, but I can't really remember.

Anyway, I still would recommend you try it.

Oh, one other tip... careful to just use carb cleaner to clean up the carb... other cleaners can strip the finish off the carb, at least that what dad used to claim.

[2005 EquinoxLS]

I have had mine rebuilt on my Bonneville. I guess where the throttle shaft is was worn enough to cause a little vacuum leak. So keep that in mind. Good luck my friend.

[KevinW]

The TPS can be replaced on-car, after raising the air horn about an inch. Ideally, a scantool should be used to adjust the closed-throttle voltage, however, the acceptable range is quite broad, plus the software threshold is dynamic and can be reset by interrupting B+ to the ECM to clear the long term memory. If the air horn gasket is not damaged, it can be re-used. I wouldn't expect any significant throttle shaft wear at 100K, and in my experience, electronic Q-Jets don't seem to exhibit the typical minor fuel bowl leakage problems like the early models (i.e. hot restarts don't require a longer cranking period to clear excess enrichment). Generally, rich running during closed-loop conditions will eventually set a DTC 45 (the mixture remains richer than stoichiometric despite the best efforts of the C-3 system), and if this condition is exclusive to open-loop, I'd look at the front vacuum break adjustment, assess the vacuum break's diaphragm integrity, inspect the choke coil and associated parts for binding, and check the hot air tube for any obstruction. A 'heavy' float or deteriorated inlet valve will cause rich running under all conditions due to a high fuel level in the bowl.

[Drew Dowdell]

Thanks for the advice. I did already rebuild the carb. None of the gaskets were able to be reused as they came off in chunks. Internally, the carb looked to be in good shape and clean. I haven't reinstalled the carb on the car yet, that happens tonight.

[SAmadei]

Is the rebuilt carb still completely computer controlled, or did you free the mixture screws? Some of the rebuild kits allow this. If so, you'll want to check up on how much turns in you need to get things started, assuming its not mentioned in the rebuild instructions.

[Drew Dowdell]

Carb is back on and everything went smoothly. The mixture is computer controlled. You tighten down the control screw and count the number of turns till bottom. Reverse the turns when putting it back together.

[Drew Dowdell]

I actually really surprised myself with this. I'm not a patient person and I was fully prepared to admit I screwed something up and pull the thing off to send out to be rebuilt over again. It took about 4 tries of cranking before she finally kicked over, but once running, she smoothed out quickly. I had a small fuel leak at the filter that required tightening that fitting down a bit more. I let it run for a while to look for more leaks, but none appeared. I was running low on fuel, so I drove it down to the gas station a few miles away for a fill up, and checked under the hood again there.

Afterwards, as I was heading back, I ended up behind a slow moving LeSabre, so I put my foot into it and passed it. Now I'm clearly not going to be burning rubber, but she stepped out without any of the hesitation that I used to get in such a maneuver. All around, running as good or better than she was before the rebuild.

The TPS is throwing a new code now, "Voltage high", but that is an on car adjustment that I need to make and I simply ran out of daylight today.

All in all, I'm satisfied.

[SAmadei]

Sweet! Welcome to a somewhat select group of guys who can brag they rebuilt their own carb. So what was the total damage ($)?

[Drew Dowdell]

Carb rebuild kit - $35 (bought a more expensive one that was recommended by other guys who've done the project on this specific carb before)

Float - $10

Fuel filter - $3

TPS - $17

Bucket of carb cleaner - $19

Total - $84 (I'm not counting some extra tools I bought here, because they're not consumables)

Idle control solenoid and choke pull off had both already been replaced before the carb rebuild, but they were $110 and $13 respectively and aren't routinely replaced during a rebuild.

[A Horse With No Name]

Congrats, glad she's running better!

[KevinW]

... It took about 4 tries of cranking before she finally kicked over, but once running, she smoothed out quickly. I had a small fuel leak at the filter that required tightening that fitting down a bit more. I let it run for a while to look for more leaks, but none appeared.

Glad to hear the rebuild went smoothly! It usually takes 3-5 seconds of cranking for enough fuel to reach the bowl. While tightening the fuel nut, the line will often 'wind up' (twists slightly in a clockwise fashion as viewed while standing at the front bumper), resulting in an anti-clockwise spring force that works to loosen the nut and/or filter housing. Instead of over-tightening these fittings, I've found it helpful to pry upwards on the line, where it snakes around the thermostat housing, to maintain a neutral position while the fuel nut is tightened.

[Intrepidation]

Sweet! Welcome to a somewhat select group of guys who can brag they rebuilt their own carb. So what was the total damage ($)?

Do lawnmower carbs count? Because I've rebuilt 30 or so of those.

[SAmadei]

Sweet! Welcome to a somewhat select group of guys who can brag they rebuilt their own carb. So what was the total damage ($)?

Do lawnmower carbs count? Because I've rebuilt 30 or so of those.

I think you need to rebuild a carb at least able to do 300 cfm to truly get in the club, but I am clearly not in the elite of the carb rebuilding club. Move up to a decent sized riding mower carb. Otherwise, we'll get you in the club... one of us will mail you a trashed carb and will wait to get it back shiny and perfect. ;-)

[Intrepidation]

I think to be an elite member of said club one must have rebuilt and then re-synced the carburetors one one of those four carburetor motorcycles. I hear the re-syncing part is a real PITA.

[balthazar]

Done a bunch here, 2bbls & 4bbls (Holley, Rochester, Carter).

I'd give DF an 'in' in the Carb Club based on his quantity there.

[Intrepidation]

[Drew Dowdell]

Done a bunch here, 2bbls & 4bbls (Holley, Rochester, Carter).

I'd give DF an 'in' in the Carb Club based on his quantity there.

Just like I'm a US Airways elite frequent flier because I have a whole bunch of 89 mile segments (you get status from segments or miles)

[Drew Dowdell]

well... looks like I'm doing a starter replacement this weekend. She's been cranking slower and slower the past couple days and on the way home from from work really struggled to start. Didn't dare shut her off again till she was back in the garage... now... turn the key, and nothing, even after sitting on the charger for about 2 hours.

Oh well, the starter went out on my first Toronado years ago probably around the same mileage.

[ocnblu]

???

[Drew Dowdell]

what don't you get?

[ocnblu]

I was just thinking it could be something else also causing that problem. A lot of times if a starter is bad you'll have an intermittent normal-speed crank. If an alternator/battery are bad, you will have a slow crank to the point of nothing when the key is turned.

[Drew Dowdell]

I was just thinking it could be something else also causing that problem. A lot of times if a starter is bad you'll have an intermittent normal-speed crank. If an alternator/battery are bad, you will have a slow crank to the point of nothing when the key is turned.

No crank, one week old battery, 6 month old Alternator.

Still no crank after sitting on the battery charger for 2 hours... not even a click. Headlights come on full brightness and everything operates at normal speed.

.... not even a click from the starter... just nothing.

[Camino LS6]

Starter is pretty easy, if a bit awkward.

[ocnblu]

It could very well be the starter motor, but if I were doing this on my own, I'd be borrowing a midtronics tester to check out the alternator and battery too. Not trying to second-guess anyone because I am not there.

[Intrepidation]

You can get all 3 tested at a parts store like Advance, in or out of the car. If you yank the starter you might as well have it tested to make sure its the starter, since you'll want to bring it with you anyway to not get a core charge (even new ones have core charges).

[Drew Dowdell]

When you buy the starter it comes with the solinoid and everything, it actually looks like a relatively straight forward install once the car is in the air. The problem so far has been locating one. At this point, I have to order it and it won't be here till after I come back next weekend anyway. :-/

[Camino LS6]

That's surprising, that should be an in stock item.

[Intrepidation]

Totally surprising that something for a 31 year old car isn't in stock.

[Camino LS6]

That starter crosses many years and many models, so yes, it is a surprise.

[Drew Dowdell]

Totally surprising that something for a 31 year old car isn't in stock.

Well the 307 is a very common engine used up until 1992...

[Robert Hall]

Totally surprising that something for a 31 year old car isn't in stock.

Well the 307 is a very common engine used up until 1992...

Did the FWD installations have a different starter than the RWD ones?

[KevinW]

The Olds 307 was last used in the 1990 model year. The 'snout' differs on the FWD E-cars. My preference would be to clean the original starter, install a new set of brushes (and address other possible issues), as replacements never quite sound the same, and high quality remanufactured units are difficult to find.

[G. David Felt]

The Olds 307 was last used in the 1990 model year. The 'snout' differs on the FWD E-cars. My preference would be to clean the original starter, install a new set of brushes (and address other possible issues), as replacements never quite sound the same, and high quality remanufactured units are difficult to find.

I always found NAPA to have quality rebuilt parts for things like this.

[Camino LS6]

The Olds 307 was last used in the 1990 model year. The 'snout' differs on the FWD E-cars. My preference would be to clean the original starter, install a new set of brushes (and address other possible issues), as replacements never quite sound the same, and high quality remanufactured units are difficult to find.

Well, that explains things. I had no idea that the starter was different on the e-bods.

[Intrepidation]

Its like when people come in looking for parts for a 350 but give you a funny look when you want the year. Believe it or not the 350 went through some changes between 1967 and 2003.