Project Toronado

[Drew Dowdell]

I replaced the plugs today. I'm guessing these haven't seen the light of day since 1981.

Not too bad for what could be 90k miles.

I replaced them with NGK Iridiums - supposedly they are able to fire with 5,000 volts less than a normal plugs which gives them a more reliable spark. I immediately notice that it starts a lot easier and when driving it's a lot more ready, willing, and able, especially highways speed. 75 mph is now effortless instead of a bit of a struggle.

[SAmadei]

I replaced the plugs today. I'm guessing these haven't seen the light of day since 1981.

Not too bad for what could be 90k miles.

They don't look original to me. I'd think they'd be a lot more corroded on the outside... and would have a blunt tip, not that modern-style small tip. But I'm just looking at photos, so I might not be seeing what your seeing. Also, I don't think that was AC Delco's logo in 1981... or even 1995, actually.

Good to know the swap helped the engine run smoother. Where the old ones gapped properly?

Edit: I always liked how Olds' have the flat bottom plugs and washers. Easier to locate were the plug hole is if you can't see it and I don't feel like I'm pushing a bunch of dirt into the head.

Edited November 1, 2010 by SAmadei

[Drew Dowdell]

They don't look original to me. I'd think they'd be a lot more corroded on the outside... and would have a blunt tip, not that modern-style small tip. But I'm just looking at photos, so I might not be seeing what your seeing. Also, I don't think that was AC Delco's logo in 1981... or even 1995, actually.

Good to know the swap helped the engine run smoother. Where the old ones gapped properly?

The thing is, a lot of stuff on this car is still original. These plugs just seem very old from the outside. I didn't bother to check the gap on them. I'm just happy it starts right away on the first twist now, runs smoother, and has a better spring in it's step.

[SAmadei]

The thing is, a lot of stuff on this car is still original. These plugs just seem very old from the outside. I didn't bother to check the gap on them. I'm just happy it starts right away on the first twist now, runs smoother, and has a better spring in it's step.

I'm sure quite a bit is original, but after a bit more searching, I'm sure the plugs aren't. The AC Delco logo was changed in 1995.

Also, I'm pretty sure those small tips are indicative of Platinums. I wonder if the Platinums are a problem in the 307s... perhaps after some mileage, they stop running so smooth.

[Drew Dowdell]

Platinums seem to be sensitive to the type of ignition being run. They tend to work best with modern electronic ignition. The Torondo has an HEI, but I don't know if that's ok with the platinums. The job was easy enough to do that I don't even mind just swapping them out every 12k if it needs it, if that's what keeps it running smooth.

Edit: Apparently what I removed were A/C Delco Rapid fire platinum plugs - whatever.. they weren't rapid firing enough for my taste.

[Intrepidation]

I love NGK spark plugs. Chrysler used them in 3.2/2.5s from the factory (Laser Platinums), and I stuck with them. the Prizm now runs NGK Platinum as well.

[Drew Dowdell]

As of last night, she's sitting on 2 NOS A/C Delco front shocks and 2 new Monroe SensaTrac air shocks in the rear. The automatic leveling works just fine, and now also has to work a lot less because while they had the back wheels off, I also had them installed two new rear springs so her ass doesn't sag.

Rides tremendously better.

[Camino LS6]

Nice!

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh dear.... do I need another?

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/cto/2152495864.html

[knightfan26917]

Yes. Yes, you do.

Cort | 37.m.IL.pigValve.pacemaker | 5 Monte Carlos + 1 Caprice Classic | * CruiseNites_2011_Chi.IL *

MCs.CC + CHD.models.HO.legos.RadioShows + RoadTrips.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I should've drove all night" __ Bon Jovi __ 'Misunderstood'

[Drew Dowdell]

New Alternator installed, the bearings were going bad in the existing one and the belt would squeal for about 5 minutes at start up and any time there was a heavy load on the electrical system.

It took less time to install the alternator on the Toronado than it took just to get to the fan belt on the CR-V. For all the Honda engineering prowess, they can't manage to engineer themselves a belt routing sticker to put in the engine bay.

Also installed a new vacuum choke pull off that I picked up on clearance.

I want to give a shout out to RockAuto.com, where I've been buying most of my parts. I ordered a replacement headlamp switch, but when it arrived, the hard plastic housing had been smashed. Rock Auto had a replacement out to me in two days no questions asked.

[Intrepidation]

I've been looking into getting parts from RockAuto (as well as Amazon). Good to know they seem to do good business. How are shipping prices and times?

[Drew Dowdell]

Shipping prices are ok if everything comes from the same warehouse. If your order pulls from multiple warehouses, the shipping charges can add up quickly. The order page will let you know which warehouse each part is coming from.

Anything in stock leaves the warehouse the next business day.

[Intrepidation]

Amazon has a surprising amount of automotive parts at prices similar to RockAuto but with the free shipping bonus. Only thing about amazon sis they don't have any sort of parts catalog, so you have to know your part numbers before hand. Still, I can get the Quit Struts and brakes from Amazon, which is pretty sweet.

Re: The Belt job.

IIRC changing belts (at least some) on 3800 FWD cars requires removal of one of the motor mounts doesn't it?

Even in modern cramped engine compartments, having a North/South engine makes the job much easier.

[Drew Dowdell]

When dealing with a now obscure car, I find that Rock Auto has what I need more often, with a lot of New-Old-Stock parts available.... like the NOS A/C Delco shocks I nabbed on there for $8.00 each.

For a more modern car like the CR-V, Amazon might be a more cost effective route, but right now Rock Auto is my default choice. Not all Amazon.com parts qualify for Prime.

[Intrepidation]

I use super saver.

[SAmadei]

IIRC changing belts (at least some) on 3800 FWD cars requires removal of one of the motor mounts doesn't it?

On the H-body, the belt runs inside of a mount, but one bolt takes part of the mount out without alignment issues, so you can swap belts. Once you've done it once, its not a big deal. IIRC, the last time I was able to do it by just cutting the wheels to the left.

[Drew Dowdell]

As of this past weekend:

1. Every vacuum hose replaced
2. Automatic level control has been repaired
3. 4 new tires with appropriately wide white walls

Found out I need lower ball joints and an idler arm. not sure how hard those are to do

[Drew Dowdell]

Looking through my 1981 service manual, I don't think either job is something I want to tackle on my own since I can't put the car in the air.

[SAmadei]

Looking through my 1981 service manual, I don't think either job is something I want to tackle on my own since I can't put the car in the air.

You don't have a jack and jackstands? I've never needed to put a car higher in the air to do the job. You would also need a pickle fork and a ball joint press kit... Harbor freight sells a cheap one that gets the job done. You may also need torsion bar tools.

Edit: I'm not sure a lift actually helps this job.

Idler arm is fairly easy... likely two bolts holding it to the frame, and a joint you'll need to separate with a pickle fork. Aside from the 3 nuts requiring higher than average torque, not a problem. Install Zerk fitting and lube.

Lower ball joints require being pressed out/in. Put your lower ball joints in the freezer in a plastic baggy. Jack car and put it on jackstands... you will need your jack later. I would replace the upper ball joints at the same time... drill out rivets, chisel off remaining heads. Remove brakes and axle nut. Loosen castle nuts, used pickle fork to separate both ball joints. Do not remove the nuts. Use jack to under the lower control arms slowly to compress the torsion bar pressure. Remove nuts... lower control arms slightly. You might need to disconnect the torsion bars at this point... I've never worked with them, however. Remove knuckle. Remove upper joints... you may need to persuade it out by chiseling between the joint and control arm.

Now you can set up the press to push the ball joint out of the lower control arm. I can explain this, but its likely beyond the scope of this description for now... the kit will also show how its used.

Once its out, set up the press for pushing the new ball joints in. Inspect the ball joint opening for looseness, cracks, etc. I usually clean out any rust and put a bit of lube in the hole to help get the new joint in. Get your frozen new lowers... they should press in much easier than removing the old ones, but be careful to ensure the joint doesn't get crooked. Some cars have splined joints, which stay straight... your car likely doesn't. Some crookedness can be "pressed out", as the joint will align once the control arm hole rests on the ball joint shoulder.

Put the boot over the top of the ball joint... you might need some wood and a hammer to snap it in place. Install the uppers... I use grade 8 hardware... not the bolts in the box... I've had the supplied bolts strip or loosen/disappear. I also install the bolts nuts up... more room. Install spindle. Torque ball joints to spec and back off enough to install pin. Install torsion bar, axle nut, brakes as needed. Thread Zerk fittings into joints... careful, they can strip... I keep extras in the garage, though. Lube.

At this point a front end alignment might be needed... I probably wouldn't until I test drive it and watch the tire wear a bit.

The first side will take you 3-4 hours... the second side will take less than half that. Its definitely doable... no step is awful. Normally, the only relatively dangerous part is removing the spring pressure... but you don't have springs.

Its a good DIY project because the parts are fairly cheap... but the job can be expensive due to the labor.

Hope this is food for thought... at least you'll know what the mechanic is going to do if you have it done for you.

Edited May 3, 2011 by SAmadei

[Intrepidation]

Makes me glad Ford just used 2 nuts and a pinch bolt. No stupid rivets. They used that those to piss you off when it comes time to replace the window regulator, but I'd much rather deal with that.

[ocnblu]

It's progressing nicely.

[Drew Dowdell]

My problem with putting the car in the air is that I have a gravel driveway and the jack stands sink in to it.

I'm still toying with the idea. I could buy some plywood and put the jack stands on that.

I already know I need an alignment, so that will need to be done regardless.

[SAmadei]

Makes me glad Ford just used 2 nuts and a pinch bolt. No stupid rivets. They used that those to piss you off when it comes time to replace the window regulator, but I'd much rather deal with that.

Fords historically has used rivets... your setup is kind of the odd one. Actually, I've now heard that later Panthers used pressed in upper and lower ball joints. Thats a lot more of a PITA than rivets.

The rivets aren't so bad... with a sharp, properly sized drill bit the heads come right off. Actually, I've had more problems getting the uppers out once the rivets were decapitated... the rivets hold it very tight even without the heads... and the shape of the control arm limits where you can chisel. Once you get a feel for it, though it goes faster.

I wish the it was possible to re-rivet the top joints... OMHO the bolts never hold the joint as securely.

I love that a lot of cars now have bolt in lowers... the Bonne has those... but the rears are still press-in. Guess which I've replaced. Yeah... had to press in a new rear joint after my rear control arm cracked and failed.

[smk4565]

Drew, you should take it to the Starlite car cruise in Wexford. July 8th is Buick/Oldsmobile/Cadillac night. I hope the Aurora becomes a future classic so I can take it to a car cruise one day.

[Drew Dowdell]

Do you have a link with information for me?

[Camino LS6]

Don't hold off too long on the repairs - those new tires will suffer.

[smk4565]

Do you have a link with information for me?

The largest car cruise in the area I think. They get over 2,000 cars most nights.

http://www.starlitecarcruise.com/

There was a guy with a McLaren Mercedes SLR last year, pretty sick car to see in person.

[Drew Dowdell]

Was intending on replacing the spark plug wires anyway when she started giving a rough idle. The jacket on one of the Accel wires was cracked. Got a new set of A/C Delcos from Amazon.com and got a distributor cap and rotor there too. Cleaned up the idle pretty well.

Also found the proper pulley for the A.I.R. pump so I can finally put the emissions system back together.

[Camino LS6]

Glad to hear it's coming along.

[G. David Felt]

The car is looking good and sounds great. Awesome job.

[Drew Dowdell]

Did I mention she took 3rd place at the regional Oldsmobile show back in September? Not bad considering I hadn't actually prepared her for it.

I only registered so I could get good parking and the $10 goes to the club.

Starring down her competition in the 1980-1989 class.

That white coupe in the distance took first. Also only has 27k miles on it... but what use is a car that you don't drive?

Again, I was the only Toronado of any year on the show field.

[knightfan26917]

Starring down her competition in the 1980-1989 class.

LOL! Great pic and even better caption .

Surprised yours was the only Toronado there.....

Cort | 38.m.IL | pigValve + paceMaker | 5 Monte Carlos + 1 Caprice Classic

CHD.MCs.CC + RoadTrips.models.RadioShows.legos.HO.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I'm going to make it to heaven" __ Irene Cara __ 'Fame'

[Drew Dowdell]

Do these square sealed beam halogens really get dimmer with age?

[ocnblu]

Maybe you need some Silver Stars up in dat Ose.

[SAmadei]

Do these square sealed beam halogens really get dimmer with age?

I find that they do... in general, the inner bulb is not radically different than the bulbs used in modern composite flush mounted headlight assemblies... and those definitely get dimmer if not replaced after 4-5 years.

Worse, the big problem I have with square selaed beam halogens is that because the internal bulb is sealed, they seem to skimp on the outer seal... and a LOT of the square bulbs I have purchased in the last decade get water, dirt inside the outer enclosure. Sure, they light up, but the lighting is dimmed significantly. And these will not pass inspection, in general.

When I got my grandmother's Impala, all four bulbs were more than 3/4 full of water. It was weird to see... but it was like having four small, dirty aquariums on the front of the car. Other bulbs have simply fell apart when I went to change them. Not good.

OTOH, when I come across a 25+ year old OEM... its still sealed properly.

[Drew Dowdell]

These bulbs are only as old as I've had the car. I installed them the day I got it. I've only put 6,000 miles on it in 18 months.

[Delta Force79]

Silverstars work quite well, but they have a short shelf life. I've installed two complete sets in my 88 in the past and usually one will burn within a year, give or take.

[SAmadei]

You should be getting more than 18 months out of square halogens. I was finding the brightness and sealing falling off severely at 4-5+ years. Its been a while since I replaced a square bulb, though. Perhaps the quality has really dropped off. Can you see any dirt inside the outer enclosure?

Of course, keep in mind, that I also highly recommend the Silverstar retrofit. The '83 Impala got Cool Blues because at the time, Silverstars were not available for the square bulbs. And while I didn't care for the blue tint, the light was much better than the halogens.

DF79: Yeah, I was losing a Silverstar every year at the one year mark, too. But not this year. I haven't seen the Silverstars fall off like the OEM Halogen bulbs. The Corolla's OEM bulbs were so bad at the 5 year mark, it was tough to tell they were on sometimes. It got Silverstars, but BOTH blew out at the one year mark. I wish I had the spare money to put Silverstars in the Sunfire or GTP... both could use them.

Edited December 22, 2011 by SAmadei

[Drew Dowdell]

Is it time or usage that diminishes them? Keep in mind that I've only driven 6,000 miles on this car so far. Someone else suggested that I need to get my alternator checked, but that was a recent remanufacture.

[Intrepidation]

If it was the alternator you'd probably notice dimming when the car was at idle and they'd get brighter if you hit the gas. Age and usage are both factors.

They do make SIlverstar sealed beam lamps.

Low beam: http://www.amazon.co...Car=1&carId=004

Hi beam: http://www.amazon.co...Car=1&carId=004

Silverstars make a big difference. The OEM light output in the Shadow sucks but putting SIlverstars in made a huge difference. ST and up (Ultra, ZXE) are guaranteed for a year, although he's gotten 3 years so far out of his.

[Drew Dowdell]

So there are ones above the ST? I thought the STs were the best...

[Intrepidation]

STs are the best sealed beam light you can get.

For Sylvania sealed beam it goes Standard < XtraVision < SilverStar

For Sylvania halogen calpsules it goes Standard < XtraVision < SilverStar < SilverStar Ultra < ZXE

ZXE's are the one of brightest street legal halogen bulbs on the market. They probably have the shortest life span though. The brighter you go the short the life.

[Drew Dowdell]

cool thanks, I think the Xtravisions are in there now.

[SAmadei]

Is it time or usage that diminishes them? Keep in mind that I've only driven 6,000 miles on this car so far. Someone else suggested that I need to get my alternator checked, but that was a recent remanufacture.

On the square sealed beam ones, time seems to ruin the outer seal. In my experience, only usage dims the inner bulb. Its not really supposed to work this way, but in real life, the Halogen inner bulb dims because as time goes on, the Tungsten stays on the glass of the bulb, instead of continuing the Tungsten-Halogen cycle. I've heard different reasons why... too low a voltage to support the Tungsten-Halogen cycle or too much cooling of the bulbs. I know the hot Halogens I have in the house, running on AC, never dim over time.

Since your car is older, you may want to look into adding relays for the headlights, so you can eliminate some of the voltage drop. Keep in mind, your car predates Halogens and voltage drop, along with so-so alternator might be hurting your bulbs.

[Drew Dowdell]

ok,... adding relays?

[SAmadei]

Yeah, there are a kits that basically add-on to the headlight wiring harness. Usually, two or four relays are included and a lead to the battery. That way the voltage to the headlights has the shortest path... and you get the highest voltage possible with your setup.

Otherwise, you may have upwards of 2-3 volt drop between the battery/alternator. Obviously, you can test with with a voltmeter to see if there is an issue. Of course, most people have never seen what their headlights look like with 13ish volts applied.

Since I have been playing with newer cars the last, this has been not as needed... I'm pretty happy with the modern lighting.

A link... http://www.jegs.com/...10002/-1?CT=999 Edit: picture in link appears to be 2 headlight version.

One could cobble this together at home for less, though.

Edited December 22, 2011 by SAmadei

[SAmadei]

Nice little DIY setup... http://www.humanspeakers.com/audi/headlight-simple.htm

[Drew Dowdell]

It was the new re-man alternator. The diodes were bad. What do ya want for $13?

Ordered a reman A/C Delco with lifetime warranty. Should be here tomorrow.

[Camino LS6]

Good info - both the Tahoe and the wagon could use a lighting upgrade.

The wagon doesn't surprise me - but the Tahoe is much worse than I expected.