Project Toronado

[Camino LS6]

Its like when people come in looking for parts for a 350 but give you a funny look when you want the year. Believe it or not the 350 went through some changes between 1967 and 2003.

True, but each iteration is out there in numbers - so parts are easy for each one. That, and the commonality is huge through most of those years. Same goes (to a lesser extent, of course) for the Olds 307. I wonder what necessitated the starter motor change for the E-body - kind of surprising that GM couldn't engineer a way around that given the longitudinal mounting of the engine.

[Intrepidation]

You'll find that a lot of parts seem to be arbitrarily changed when you would think the would be the same. As for the 307, there were many cars built after 1992, stores will prioritize their inventory for what's most common. I can't remember the last time someone came in with a 307, or a Toronado. Now a 90's C/K series with a 305 on the other hand...

[Camino LS6]

Not having a 307 starter in store I can see, but I would expect it next day. Now an E-body only 307 starter is a different ballgame.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Camino LS6

[Intrepidation]

It all depends on which warehouse its located in, or if its and FDO. If demand is low it could be in a master warehouse halfway across the country, which would take days to get shipped. People need to understand that parts aren't always located the next town over.

[Camino LS6]

Just for grins, DF, check how long it would take you to get the RWD 307 starter vs. the FWD 307 starter.

I'm curious.

If you can't take the time, I understand.

But it would be cool to know.

Parts availability can be a very weird thing, I've had really basic stuff be unobtainable, and obscure stuff be really easy.

Almost everything I bought for the wagon was no more than a 1 day wait, for example.

[Intrepidation]

Sure, I'll do it tomorrow.

[Intrepidation]

Same/next day depending on time of order.

[Camino LS6]

Cool.

Thanks for checking.

[Drew Dowdell]

Its like when people come in looking for parts for a 350 but give you a funny look when you want the year. Believe it or not the 350 went through some changes between 1967 and 2003.

True, but each iteration is out there in numbers - so parts are easy for each one. That, and the commonality is huge through most of those years. Same goes (to a lesser extent, of course) for the Olds 307. I wonder what necessitated the starter motor change for the E-body - kind of surprising that GM couldn't engineer a way around that given the longitudinal mounting of the engine.

T'was the starter. I found an AC Delco reman without the need for a core so I can keep the old one and have it rebuilt if I choose. Went on fairly easily except for the patches of pouring rain moving through the area while I was trying to do the work. Starts much faster too.

Found the reason that GM couldn't engineer the same starter on the E-bodies. According to my 1981 Oldsmobile shop manual, the RWD Y-Vin cars (Olds 307) all have the starter on the right side if you're facing the engine. On the E-bodies, they couldn't put the starter there because..well.. that's where the transmission is. Some of you fellow historians might recall that on the GM E-bodies, though the engine is longitudinal, it is offset slightly to the left (again if you're facing the front of the car). The transmission actually sits below and to the right of the engine. The starter on the E-bodies is on the left side.

In my case at least, I think I prefer the mounting done on the E-body. The RWD Y-Vin cars look like a more difficult job from an access standpoint.

Camino... the number of times the phrase "All - Except Toronado" appears under a schematic in the 1981 Oldsmobile shop manual is staggering. They would have been better off printing a 1981 E/K body manual for the 3 divisions that used this chassis.

[Robert Hall]

Camino... the number of times the phrase "All - Except Toronado" appears under a schematic in the 1981 Oldsmobile shop manual is staggering. They would have been better off printing a 1981 E/K body manual for the 3 divisions that used this chassis.

Interesting..if I'm not mistaken, the E/Ks of that generation each had their own divisional engines, maybe only had the diesels in common (or was the diesel only at Cadillac?)

[Camino LS6]

Good info to know!

I'm used to "All - except El Camino" and "All- except wagon"

[Drew Dowdell]

Camino... the number of times the phrase "All - Except Toronado" appears under a schematic in the 1981 Oldsmobile shop manual is staggering. They would have been better off printing a 1981 E/K body manual for the 3 divisions that used this chassis.

Interesting..if I'm not mistaken, the E/Ks of that generation each had their own divisional engines, maybe only had the diesels in common (or was the diesel only at Cadillac?)

That statement differs vastly depending on the year. At Cadillac, the engine options are the same regardless of it being a Seville or Eldorado.

In 1979 - all three had an Olds 350 gasser with the diesel as an option for all years. Buick had a 3.8 Turbo V6 option.

In 1980 - Buick and Olds kept the 350, Cadillac went with the 368 except in CA where it kept the 350.

in 1981 - Buick and Olds went to the 307, Cadillac went to the 8-6-4. Olds gains the 4.1 V6 to negative fanfare.

in 1982 - Buick and Olds unchanged, Cadillac goes to the 4100 V8. All three gain 4-speed automatic with overdrive.

in 1983 - no changes to note

in 1984 - last year for the unloved Olds 4.1 V6.

In 1985 - Last year for this body - 307 gains some upgrades with very modest bumps in power. Last year for 350 diesel... because GM finally got it right by this point.

[Robert Hall]

Ah..interesting...never knew the Riviera had a V8 option then..thought they were all V6s.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ah..interesting...never knew the Riviera had a V8 option then..thought they were all V6s.

I think over 90% of the Rivieras sold were sold with the V8.

Reading again, I missed that the Riv also had a Buick 4.1 V6 starting in 1980... but with 125hp, I can't imagine anyone buying them.

[Robert Hall]

Ah..interesting...never knew the Riviera had a V8 option then..thought they were all V6s.

I think over 90% of the Rivieras sold were sold with the V8.

Reading again, I missed that the Riv also had a Buick 4.1 V6 starting in 1980... but with 125hp, I can't imagine anyone buying them.

Looks like Cadillac (Seville and Eldorado) also got the 4.1 V6 as an option in '81-82. The Caddy C bodies also had it as an option from '80-82.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

Ah..interesting...never knew the Riviera had a V8 option then..thought they were all V6s.

I think over 90% of the Rivieras sold were sold with the V8.

Reading again, I missed that the Riv also had a Buick 4.1 V6 starting in 1980... but with 125hp, I can't imagine anyone buying them.

Looks like Cadillac (Seville and Eldorado) also got the 4.1 V6 as an option in '81-82. The Caddy C bodies also had it as an option from '80-82.

The question is which 4.1 There is an Olds and a Buick of the same displacement apparently.

[Robert Hall]

Ah..interesting...never knew the Riviera had a V8 option then..thought they were all V6s.

I think over 90% of the Rivieras sold were sold with the V8.

Reading again, I missed that the Riv also had a Buick 4.1 V6 starting in 1980... but with 125hp, I can't imagine anyone buying them.

Looks like Cadillac (Seville and Eldorado) also got the 4.1 V6 as an option in '81-82. The Caddy C bodies also had it as an option from '80-82.

The question is which 4.1 There is an Olds and a Buick of the same displacement apparently.

Hmmm...never heard of an Olds V6 then (other than the 4.3 diesel). Wikipedia shows it as a 4.1 version of the Buick V6.

http://en.wikipedia....Buick_V6_engine

Edited October 21, 2012 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Camino LS6]

Glad my '82 Toro never needed a starter...

[ocnblu]

The 4.1L V6 was a Buick motor.

[SAmadei]

Found the reason that GM couldn't engineer the same starter on the E-bodies. According to my 1981 Oldsmobile shop manual, the RWD Y-Vin cars (Olds 307) all have the starter on the right side if you're facing the engine. On the E-bodies, they couldn't put the starter there because..well.. that's where the transmission is.

I would imagine this is still only a matter of swapping the snout of the starter, as a worse case scenario... the only wear part in the snout is the bearing, and its not much of a wear item. Its great that you did get a replacement fairly easily, but keep in mind that many of the rebuild kits are pretty easy to use, if the E-bod starters become harder to source in the future.

In my case at least, I think I prefer the mounting done on the E-body. The RWD Y-Vin cars look like a more difficult job from an access standpoint.

Done it a couple times, no problem... I think once on a G-bod, once in a B-bod.

[Drew Dowdell]

That may be, but the E-body is just that much easier.

I'm probably going to send my original out to be rebuilt just to have it.

[stevec]

Hello there. nice toro. i have a cheap fix for the sideview mirrors that lose adjustment, providing theyre the cable type remote mirrors. remove the L/S cable from the door trim panel bezel and from the retaining loop up against the door shell. carefully tie a gentle loop in the cable and secure it inside the door. secure the cable behind the retainer in the door and then run it back to the adjustment bezel. MAKE SURE the cable does not interfere with the front of the window, and reassemble the door panel. basically, do the same thing for the R/S mirror, but you can tie the mirror cable up behind the glove box door area. no need to take the R/S door panel off. good luck with the Toro. take care, Steve C.

[Drew Dowdell]

but then I lose my adjustments?

Question for the guys out there... would an old mechanical fuel pump cause hard starting? She cranks really well, newer plugs and wires, but takes forever and lots of pumping for the first fire.

[Camino LS6]

Question for the guys out there... would an old mechanical fuel pump cause hard starting? She cranks really well, newer plugs and wires, but takes forever and lots of pumping for the first fire.

Doubtful.

To check the fuel pump, just check your oil. If it is overfull, or smells like gas, you need a new fuel pump.

If not, look to other things causing the hard start. (Carb issues/ignition issues)

Check the timing.

EDIT: My first suspects would be choke adjustment/actuation or timing.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Camino LS6

[Drew Dowdell]

Once running though, runs like new.

[Camino LS6]

Well, it should start on just what fuel is already in the carb - so I wouldn't be looking at the fuel pump.

Does it have a high idle on a cold start?

It should.

[Drew Dowdell]

No, I hold the gas pedal slightly after she's fired.

[Camino LS6]

Choke is non-functional.

[Camino LS6]

I'd try two things on the next few cold starts:

1. Try to start it without touching the gas pedal at all.

2. Try to start it with a single depression (and release) of the gas pedal.

[Drew Dowdell]

1. I'd be there all day and out another starter.

2. That's how I was doing it and still hard starting. After consulting with my dad, he said to pump the gas 6 times before cranking to see if that helps. It does.

[Camino LS6]

Something is wrong with the choke/high idle settings/linkage.

Or that freaking solenoid thing (actuator).

I'm not currently running the choke on my wagon, and have to pump it and hold the idle like you are doing.

It's so willing to start and run that I have never bothered to hook it up.

Carbed engines are finicky things.

[G. David Felt]

Something is wrong with the choke/high idle settings/linkage.

Or that freaking solenoid thing (actuator).

I'm not currently running the choke on my wagon, and have to pump it and hold the idle like you are doing.

It's so willing to start and run that I have never bothered to hook it up.

Carbed engines are finicky things.

Reason to go Fuel Injected.

[ocnblu]

Doesn't anyone make a replacement carb for these troublesome years?

[Camino LS6]

Edelbrock did, don't know if they still do.

[Drew Dowdell]

Found a replacement carb, $200 shipped, no core charge, from a national brand and 3 year warranty. I don't have time to screw around with this anymore, I need something that starts when I want it to start.

[KevinW]

These carburetors are not troublesome and the OEM unit is the best for this application. This sounds like an adjustment issue.

On a cold engine, the choke valve needs to be closed to generate sufficient pull-over enrichment for starting; ensure there is sufficient choke coil tension to keep it closed during cranking after the choke is set (accelerator pumped once to the floor). Also, the fast idle screw should be adjusted to at least 1400 RPM, on the second highest step of the cam, while the engine is at operating temperature. Note that this screw adjustment is very sensitive. I sometimes adjust it a 1/4 turn up or down according to the season, as the factory setting is only needed in extremely cold weather.

[ocnblu]

Some might throw up their hands, but KevinW gets in there and gets 'er done. That's awesome. I've heard people complain for years about GM carburetors from that era. Maybe it's just that people don't know what they're doing, or just don't want to take the time to figure things out.

Not singling Drew out, he's certainly not alone.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm normally one to tinker with it until it works, but that's why I bought from a place with no core charge so I can keep the original carb and figure out the issue. Just... life right now demands a car that starts each time without tinkering.

[Camino LS6]

Hmm...

I'd put the new carb on a shelf and tinker with the old one first since the new one will require tinkering to get it adjusted.

[SAmadei]

Hmm...

I'd put the new carb on a shelf and tinker with the old one first since the new one will require tinkering to get it adjusted.

I wouldn't. Knowing all the issues old carbs have, the new carb will be more predictable. For example, if rebuilt to OEM spec, there will be little to adjust. The mixture is not adjustable on most '80s carbs. IIRC, the only thing on '86 307 that was adjustable was the idle.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hmm...

I'd put the new carb on a shelf and tinker with the old one first since the new one will require tinkering to get it adjusted.

I wouldn't. Knowing all the issues old carbs have, the new carb will be more predictable. For example, if rebuilt to OEM spec, there will be little to adjust. The mixture is not adjustable on most '80s carbs. IIRC, the only thing on '86 307 that was adjustable was the idle.

The computer does most of the adjustments, there is very little to set, though I do know the steps for that and have the tools already. I don't want to diagnose at this point. Who knows what the previous owner did... the carb was clearly opened before.

that said, it still hasn't arrived yet..... tracking says delivery today.

[Camino LS6]

Hope it works for you.

[2005 EquinoxLS]

I've had the carburetor rebuilt on my 1981 Bonneville. Mine started well but if you tried to drive too soon it would stall. The car tended to idle roughly also. Once the rebuild was done and some kinks were worked out it works much better. Surprisingly mine still has the original starter. The transmission was rebuilt 20,000 miles ago(It now has 123,000 on it). Other than maybe some new coolant hoses and antifreeze it wouldnt be afraid to take it on a road trip.