Insider help please: Ultra V8

[91z4me]

I would like anyone and everyone's help to figure this some things out about the Ultra V8, insider help is especially appreciated.

Alright so what do we know about the Ultra V8?

It will be OHC with some parts sharing with the HF V6.

It will be FWD compatible.

Speculation:

Will it be the replacement for the Northstar?

Will it be DOHC or will it be SOHC?

Will it be DI or standard injection?

Will it be smaller than the Northstar?

Will it be RWD?

Will it have forced induction applications?

Will it be available with a stick?

Will it fit into an epsilon?

Will it be a global engine or just in the US, like the Northstar pretty much is?

Will it have different displacements?

Will it have different power levels depending on applications, Buick vs Caddy?

Will Pontiac and Saturn use this engine or will it be a strictly Buick/Caddy engine, like the ill fated 4.0 Olds N* based V8?

Any of these questions that can be answered would be greatly appreciated.

[Carguy]

Last I remember the Ultra V8 was canceled. But if I remember correctly it was going to be 4.7L's and it was going to replace the Northstar. It was going to be DOHC/4VPC and basicly be a 90 degree V8 version of the 60 degree HFV6 family and use the latest TECH in Valve Actuation/Direct Injection ect. It was going to put out approx 380HP and be used by Caddy at first--LIKE NS--then some others later. Personally I dont see why they couldent use an upgraded version of the most resent DEBORED/NEW BLOCKED 4.4L NS without Supercharging as a bases for a Northstar II line useing the latest TECH innovations. That would be my guess for the future because of their latest $$$$ trubles.

[91z4me]

Last I remember the Ultra V8 was canceled. But if I remember correctly it was going to be 4.7L's and it was going to replace the Northstar. It was going to be DOHC/4VPC and basicly be a 90 degree V8 version of the 60 degree HFV6 family and use the latest TECH in Valve Actuation/Direct Injection ect. It was going to put out approx 380HP and be used by Caddy at first--LIKE NS--then some others later. Personally I dont see why they couldent use an upgraded version of the most resent DEBORED/NEW BLOCKED 4.4L NS without Supercharging as a bases for a Northstar II line useing the latest TECH innovations. That would be my guess for the future because of their latest $$$$ trubles.

I belive the parts sharing between the HF V6 and the Ultra is supposed to make it cost less to build, the N* shares no main parts with other current GM engines. The increased volume from it not being a Caddy only motor would also help offset the cost of changing from the N* to the new design.

Edit: I do not think the program was cancelled. I think people extrapolated Lutz saying something like no V8 at launch for Enclave or no plans for a V8 at this time to the Ultra V8 is dead, which would be incorrect.

Edited February 20, 2006 by 91z4me

[Carguy]

I agree with the cost issue brought up by 91z4me and I do hope this new Ultra Engine line is not dead. And it would be good if they did different sizes for different brands. And the Caddies should deliver NO KESS THEN 400HP with direct injection/VVT/DOD and use 5.0L of displacement being thats were the competitors are heading in both power and size.

[Sixty8panther]

If GM is still developing another FWD compatible V8 then all hope is lost! V8s and FWD should be mutually exclusive.

Don't make me come bust up yo place fools!

[balthazar]

And the Caddies should deliver NO KESS THEN 400HP with direct injection/VVT/DOD and use 5.0L of displacement being thats were the competitors are heading in both power and size.

Cadillac should never follow the imports to the point of mimicking engine displacements. Homogenization has slowly been killing the aspirational automobile. Call it the 'NASCARification' if that works better for you.

Also- increasing displacement to increase power has been a running practice of many of the imports- Cadillac has been increasing power & decreasing displacement for many years now. NorthStar just dropped .2 liters in it's recent redesign, what's the point in increasing it to 5.0 liters? That is NOT even remotely considered being competitive.

[97regalGS]

If GM is still developing another FWD compatible V8 then all hope is lost! V8s and FWD should be mutually exclusive.

Don't make me come bust up yo place fools! 

don't you own a Seville STS????

[Northstar]

If GM is still developing another FWD compatible V8 then all hope is lost! V8s and FWD should be mutually exclusive.

Don't make me come bust up yo place fools! 

Umm, there's nothing wrong with making a both FWD, RWD, and AWD compatible. V8s for the Lambdas would do wonders for their image and if a DTS/Lucerne type vehicle is to stay around it could use a nice, new V8.

[Sixty8panther]

don't you own a Seville STS????

Yes I do.... and if you go back about 20 posts you'll see I'm selling it due to the retarded bull$h! that is required to do basic maintenence on it... also I don't like changing lanes involuntarily when the car goes from 2nd-to-3rd & 3rd-to-4th at WOT. Torque steer sucks.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[91z4me]

And the Caddies should deliver NO KESS THEN 400HP with direct injection/VVT/DOD and use 5.0L of displacement being thats were the competitors are heading in both power and size.

Cadillac should never follow the imports to the point of mimicking engine displacements. Homogenization has slowly been killing the aspirational automobile. Call it the 'NASCARification' if that works better for you.

Also- increasing displacement to increase power has been a running practice of many of the imports- Cadillac has been increasing power & decreasing displacement for many years now. NorthStar just dropped .2 liters in it's recent redesign, what's the point in increasing it to 5.0 liters? That is NOT even remotely considered being competitive.

The 4.4 Northstar was debored to make the cylinder walls thicker. It wasn't because it was more efficient it was because engineers didn't want the clinders to crack under the intense pressure of the supercharger.

[balthazar]

Be that as it may, there is no valid argument for "matching the imports" in displacement.

[Sixty8panther]

I definately see your point Balthazar, but I also think that a big block Northstar for the Escalade and a flagship sedan would be a good idea.

Moreso than that a "compact" V12 and balls-to-the-wall V16 for a production SIXTEEN would be awsome. Watching the movie "The Island" I got mad at GM for not producing the CIEN. Damn that thing is hotter than Florida in July.

[Flybrian]

also I don't like changing lanes involuntarily when the car goes from 2nd-to-3rd & 3rd-to-4th at WOT. Torque steer sucks.

Exaggerate much?

[Sixty8panther]

Ever try to pass anyone on $h!ty Rt.495 here in Mass and just as you hit an expansion joint on the highway the car reaches 6500rpm and shifts?

Yeah... the damn car practically changes lanes. 300 horsepower really is about 100 too much for a FWD car. RWD and opt. AWD with a rear wheel bias would make that car awsome... oh wait they already did exactly that. :wink:

[CaddyXLR-V]

Ever try to pass anyone on $h!ty Rt.495 here in Mass and just as you hit an expansion joint on the highway the car reaches 6500rpm and shifts?

Yeah... the damn car practically changes lanes. 300 horsepower really is about 100 too much for a FWD car. RWD and opt. AWD with a rear wheel bias would make that car awsome... oh wait they already did exactly that. :wink:

Well I have about 280hp and 310 ft/lbs of torque, and my car has 0 torque steer. It's the traction(tires spun up to almost 50mph last friday at the track) and handling balance that makes me want RWD.

[Drew Dowdell]

If GM is still developing another FWD compatible V8 then all hope is lost! V8s and FWD should be mutually exclusive.

Don't make me come bust up yo place fools! 

68, could you be a little less hardline about this? The Aurora, Impala SS, Lucerne CXS and DTS are all fine cars with V8s and FWD. Not everyone has to like what you like. If there were room in my garage, I'd love a new DTS... regarless of the drive wheels. If I want a sporty car to throw around on the weekends, that is what I have the CTS for. Not every car has to be the same layout to be a good car.

Please... the FWD bashing is getting a little tiring.

[Drew Dowdell]

Yes I do.... and if you go back about 20 posts you'll see I'm selling it due to the retarded bull$h! that is required to do basic maintenence on it... also I don't like changing lanes involuntarily when the car goes from 2nd-to-3rd & 3rd-to-4th at WOT. Torque steer sucks.

Perhaps you should drive with your hands on the wheel next time.

[Sixty8panther]

Honestly:

I think the FWD layout of the Aurora, pre-04 STS & post B-body Impala SS is a huge part of what makes GM look like a clueless faceless corporation that has trouble hitting a broad side of a barn with a machinegun.

Do you honestly beleive that any sales were won because of the FWD layout of these cars? Like you guys say... non enthusiasts mostly don't even care about which wheels are being driven, and us enthusiasts who covet RWD will never get near a Impala SS or a BMW figter Olds/Caddy with FWD.

Sales are only lost beacuse of sideways mounted motors in luxury cars not won. I'm sorry but I've got very strong feelings about this. Even XP thinks I'm a little too RWD obsessed but damnit you gotta beleive in something. It's about balance, symetry, harmonious design and the purity of RWD. Just looking at that ugly little Datsun in my driveway puts a smile on my face because I know I have the only compact straight-six-powered, RWD, IRS, 5-speed car in town without a Lexus or BMW logo.

Sorry to

[Drew Dowdell]

Do you honestly beleive that any sales were won because of the FWD layout of these cars? Like you guys say... non enthusiasts mostly don't even care about which wheels are being driven, and us enthusiasts who covet RWD will never get near a Impala SS or a BMW figter Olds/Caddy with FWD.

Here is where you are wrong. Non-enthusiasts DO care which wheels are powered. Non-enthusiasts want FWD or AWD... especially if they live in Boston. Now we could have a debate till next tuesdays over which is more stable in snow, but that doesn't change the opinion of the people actually buying the cars.

And yes people DID buy Auroras because they were FWD. My mother wasn't interested in the CTS once she found out it was RWD <I tried to keep it from her>, so she got an Aurora instead. She was really into the CTS for it's looks, but wouldn't own RWD. The 300C isn't selling because it's RWD, it's selling because of it's looks. It would still sell if it were FWD. People who covet RWD won't be interested in DTS....and that's fine. There are a number of other excellent RWD alternatives at the General to choose from. Just because YOU covet RWD, doesn't mean we ALL have to... and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the choice of FWD V8s if we want one.

Sales are only lost beacuse of sideways mounted motors in luxury cars not won. I'm sorry but I've got very strong feelings about this. Even XP thinks I'm a little too RWD obsessed but damnit you gotta beleive in something. It's about balance, symetry, harmonious design and the purity of RWD. Just looking at that ugly little Datsun in my driveway puts a smile on my face because I know I have the only compact straight-six-powered, RWD, IRS, 5-speed car in town without a Lexus or BMW logo.

You need to get some pills....

[Flybrian]

Ever try to pass anyone on &#036;h&#33;ty Rt.495 here in Mass and just as you hit an expansion joint on the highway the car reaches 6500rpm and shifts?

Ever think this is a fault of your state's Department of Transportation?

Here is where you are wrong. Non-enthusiasts DO care which wheels are powered. Non-enthusiasts want FWD or AWD... especially if they live in Boston. Now we could have a debate till next tuesdays over which is more stable in snow, but that doesn't change the opinion of the people actually buying the cars.

And yes people DID buy Auroras because they were FWD. My mother wasn't interested in the CTS once she found out it was RWD <I tried to keep it from her>, so she got an Aurora instead. She was really into the CTS for it's looks, but wouldn't own RWD. The 300C isn't selling because it's RWD, it's selling because of it's looks. It would still sell if it were FWD. People who covet RWD won't be interested in DTS....and that's fine. There are a number of other excellent RWD alternatives at the General to choose from. Just because YOU covet RWD, doesn't mean we ALL have to... and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the choice of FWD V8s if we want one.

What he said.

[91z4me]

Alright guys can we get this back on track?

[Sixty8panther]

First off, Oldsmoboi, I'm not anrgy at you or showing any hostility towards you, just so that's out there cause I know I tend to come off like I'm heated. Just for the record.

Here is where you are wrong. Non-enthusiasts DO care which wheels are powered. Non-enthusiasts want FWD or AWD... especially if they live in Boston. Now we could have a debate till next tuesdays over which is more stable in snow, but that doesn't change the opinion of the people actually buying the cars.

Yeah the same people that made the Camry the best selling vehicle in the USA. Please do tell how we should cater to their every wish. F**k the A-to-point-B crowd, they'll buy based on what the rags like CR say and call GM $hit while they wax poetic about thier Hybrid Lexus that's saving the world.

But still I say the V12 and V16 motors should already be powering Cadillacs as we speak. Why are we not seeing Cadillac throw caution to the wind and make the Cien & Sixteen? Those two cars would make them the standard of the world again! If I had to pick just one to make I'd say the SIXTEEN.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[z28luvr01]

In an attempt to bring this thread back on track after another FWD-RWD debate, I'll say that last I heard, the UV8 was slated for use in the Lambdas (at least in the Enclave). Since the V6 has 280-something horsepower, I'm pretty certain we'd see something well north of 300hp out of the UV8.

[Carguy]

And the Caddies should deliver NO KESS THEN 400HP with direct injection/VVT/DOD and use 5.0L of displacement being thats were the competitors are heading in both power and size.

Cadillac should never follow the imports to the point of mimicking engine displacements. Homogenization has slowly been killing the aspirational automobile. Call it the 'NASCARification' if that works better for you.

Also- increasing displacement to increase power has been a running practice of many of the imports- Cadillac has been increasing power & decreasing displacement for many years now. NorthStar just dropped .2 liters in it's recent redesign, what's the point in increasing it to 5.0 liters? That is NOT even remotely considered being competitive.

The point of a larger displacement of 5.0L's is to allow for MORE POWER and TORQUE at closer RPM's to todays NS. And with DOD and other advances fuel economy should be as good IF NOT BETTER then todays NS V8. Larger Engine-&-Better fuel economy at a lower quieter RPM?? Why not? And they NEED to pay attention to their competitors allso.--MB 5.5L V8 382HP - BMW 4.8L V8 360HP - Caddy 4.6L V8 320HP @ 6200 RPM's!! A 5.0L NS V8 as tuned today would put out approx 345HP but if tuned like the BMW mill it would put out 370HP so an even 400HP at around 6700 RPM's would be BETTER THEN ALL THE OTHERS!

[Drew Dowdell]

First off, Oldsmoboi, I'm not anrgy at you or showing any hostility towards you, just so that's out there cause I know I tend to come off like I'm heated. Just for the record.

Yeah the same people that made the Camry the best selling vehicle in the USA. Please do tell how we should cater to their every wish. F**k the A-to-point-B crowd, they'll buy based on what the rags like CR say and call GM $hit while they wax poetic about thier Hybrid Lexus that's saving the world.

But still I say the V12 and V16 motors should already be powering Cadillacs as we speak. Why are we not seeing Cadillac throw caution to the wind and make the Cien & Sixteen? Those two cars would make them the standard of the world again! If I had to pick just one to make I'd say the SIXTEEN.

I'm all for a SIXTEEN. I'd buy one! But that doesn't mean the UV8 can't or shouldn't power a FWD Lucerne or DTS. Not everyone buys Camry's. Mom was very happy with the 160,000 miles her '94 Bonneville SSEI gave her and she is very happy with her '03 Aurora. ... but the woman wants a FWD Luxury car.... I'd like her to stay with the General, but the DTS and Lucerne aren't really her type. She'll probably end up in a Zephyr ones she's done with the Aurora.

Keep in mind that some people have the following criteria:

1. Has to have some class

2. Has to have some balls

3. Has to be FWD or AWD for the snow

[91z4me]

SERIOUSLY take the FWD vs RWD argument somewhere else guys I want to see if we can get some information on the Ultra v8s.

[ehaase]

SERIOUSLY take the FWD vs RWD argument somewhere else guys I want to see if we can get some information on the Ultra v8s.

You should take your question to AH-HA's site, because you're not going to get the information you want here. However, he and Evok may not know all the details you're asking for.

[balthazar]

The point of a larger displacement of 5.0L's is to allow for MORE POWER and TORQUE at closer RPM's to todays NS. And with DOD and other advances fuel economy should be as good IF NOT BETTER then todays NS V8. Larger Engine-&-Better fuel economy at a lower quieter RPM?? Why not?

The point was not one against more power, but against matching the import's displacements specifically merely to be erroneously considered "competitive".

And they NEED to pay attention to their competitors allso.--MB 5.5L V8 382HP - BMW 4.8L V8 360HP - Caddy 4.6L V8 320HP @ 6200 RPM's!!

Cadillac 4.4L V8 469HP.

[pow]

The point was not one against more power, but against matching the import's displacements specifically merely to be erroneously considered "competitive".

Cadillac 4.4L V8 469HP.

The supercharged Northstar is a low-volume V-series engine that competes against the 514-hp AMG 6.3 V8 and 507-hp M 5.0L V10.

[balthazar]

By omission, do you agree that homogenizing displacements is pointless and 'demeaning'?

The Northstar is unquestionably capable of more HP at it's present displacement. I would much rather the output be increased at the present CI before unneccessarily boring & stroking.

[turbo200]

ah-ha stated on his site the Ultra V8 has been cancelled in favor of a new Northstar. Probably why they hate releasing information early....

[91z4me]

Probably why they hate releasing information early....

And rightfully so.

[Drew Dowdell]

What would an Ultra V8 have that a new Northstar wouldn't?

[91z4me]

What would an Ultra V8 have that a new Northstar wouldn't?

Parts sharing between the HF V6 and the Ultra V8 for lowered parts cost.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ah, that makes sense.