Acura dealers expect cheaper RL

[Variance]

Acura dealers expect cheaper RL

Kathy Jackson

Automotive News / February 20, 2006 - 6:00 am

ORLANDO, Fla. -- When Acura redesigned its flagship RL in 2004, it loaded on the goodies: all-wheel drive, navigation system, 10-speaker stereo and radar that warns drivers of an impending crash.

It has a price tag to match: $49,915 with shipping, about $6,000 more than the previous-generation RL.

Oops.

Now Acura has concluded that its slow-selling flagship needs help.

The division is considering a lower-content version of the car, some dealers say. Sales chief Dick Colliver told Automotive News that the RL's content will change next year but gave no details. He acknowledged that the RL "hasn't performed to expectations."

The RL lacks a V-8 engine, an amenity expected by many luxury buyers.

"It's at a price point in foreign territory for us," Mike McGrath, chairman of the Acura dealer council, said at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention here. "Maybe Acura doesn't have the brand image" to sell a vehicle at that price.

McGrath said the dealer council has recommended a model with less content. "It only comes one way: loaded," he said. "We need something in the low to mid-40s."

The redesigned RL was introduced in October 2004. In 2005 it substantially outsold the previous-generation model. But sales have slipped. In the four months ending January 31, Acura sold 4,899 RLs, down 25.6 percent year-over-year.

Link: http://autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?...B/60217081/1078

[sciguy_0504]

While it is a pretty nice car, it needs to be decontented a bit and a V8.

[Paolino]

I agree... you need to be able to pick and choose some options... not to mention, everything else seems to have available V8's, and as nice as you make your 6, it's just not an 8.

[ToniCipriani]

Problem is Honda doesn't have a V8.

Still, I see Acura as a "premium" brand rather than "luxury". Too ricey to be luxury.

[siegen]

The RL comes with a lot of neat techy stuff, hopefully AHM can increase the sales of the RL by making some of it options.

Problem is Honda doesn't have a V8.

Still, I see Acura as a "premium" brand rather than "luxury". Too ricey to be luxury.

The platform most likely won't fit a V8. If the RL can loose some weight in the process of losing some of the standard features, it should also help with the acceleration. The RL already accelerates just as well as other cars in its price range, a lot with V8's. That doesn't get past the "image" of a V8, but unfortunately that is nothing they can do with this platform, unless they develope a super conpact sub-4.0L V8 (which might not be a bad idea at all).

Lay off the rice.

[ltm_awake]

wasn't there a RWD RL concept with a V8 in it? IIRC it was at the Tokyo AutoSalon

[VenSeattle]

290hp just isn't that great any more for this class. Especially for $50,000. With the new IS350, G35, and their own TL (not to mention the Chrysler 300C), you can have the same performance (or better) in a vehicle around the same size but at a much cheaper price... even when including AWD. True you'll miss out on a few features, but those features don't justify $10,000+ premium over the above mentioned vehicles.

This is funny. Check this out:

Car & Driver's performance numbers for the 275hp "torqueless" $35,000 Lucerne CXS:

"60 mph comes up at just a tick under seven seconds (6.9), followed by the quarter-mile mark in 15.3 at 94 mph.""

Car & Driver's performance numbers for the 290hp $50,000 Acura RL:

"put the RL's acceleration to 60 mph at 6.7 seconds, the quarter-mile at 15.2 seconds at 94 mph"

If the Lucerne should be ashamed of its performance, then...

(MPG are also about the same too: RL 18/26, Lucerne: 17/25. There's V6 economy for you!)

[siegen]

wasn't there a RWD RL concept with a V8 in it? IIRC it was at the Tokyo AutoSalon

I completely forgot about that! It was a Mugen designed vehicle, called the Legend Max. It had a 4.0L V8 and RWD rated to 500ps. If it was economically possible to produce it at a good price, I'm sure it would be a killer. Maybe with all the talk about the lacking RL sales, AHM will give us something like this.

More information and pictures

Edited February 21, 2006 by siegen

[caddycruiser]

This is definatley an odd car...it has an outstanding interior, very high quality, one of the best AWD systems around, and is very refined.

BUT, and strange as it is, it is quite cramped inside, still lacking a bit under the hood, and VERY blandly styled. As far as the latter is concerned, it's never a good sign when your flagship vehicle is regarded as the most boring and bubbled car in the line, with the lower line TL, TSX, and even RSX always generally considered to be a lot better looking.

Even if it just had styling along the lines of the crisp and taut TL but a bit more exotic, and then interior room that you naturally expect in a car of this class, it would sell VERY well at $50k.

As is, it comes off as quite the odd mixture...

[regfootball]

proof that you can't sell a 50,000 accord......

[balthazar]

>>'Mike McGrath, chairman of the Acura dealer council, said at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention here. "Maybe Acura doesn't have the brand image" to sell a vehicle at that price.'<<

Ouch- not a particularly reasurring admission. Not sure knocking a few grand off is going to do much- it's the value moreso than the actual price that's depressing sales IMO.

What is "AHM"?

[bobo]

AHM = American Honda Motor Co.

[Robert Hall]

I test drove one a while back..loved the interior, but felt $40-45k would be a better price point. That said, I really, really liked the TL..if I were going to buy a FWD commuter car, it would be a loaded TL with the 6-speed manual...loved the interior and exterior, the size is right, etc.

[caddycruiser]

I test drove one a while back..loved the interior, but felt $40-45k would be a better price point. That said, I really, really liked the TL..if I were going to buy a FWD commuter car, it would be a loaded TL with the 6-speed manual...loved the interior and exterior, the size is right, etc.

EXACTLY. Not that I keep up with the happenings of the RL or even Acura all that much, but I've heard it mentioned SO many times that people who look at the RL still end up being more impressed with the TL, just because it's a more compelling (ESPECIALLY when it comes to styling) package for an extremely attractive bottom line.

That said, I'm always in awe of the RL's interior beauty when I see them at auto shows...too bad I can only fit in the front seat, and even then still feel a little cramped.

But, for $50k, it's the B-O-R-I-N-G styling that would keep me away from the dotted line, regardless of how nice it drove or what features it had.

[Sixty8panther]

I completely forgot about that! It was a Mugen designed vehicle, called the Legend Max. It had a 4.0L V8 and RWD rated to 500ps. If it was economically possible to produce it at a good price, I'm sure it would be a killer. Maybe with all the talk about the lacking RL sales, AHM will give us something like this.

Honda/Acura is being run by a bunch of pu$$ys who think Americans can't handle RWD or even rear-wheel-biased AWD.

F*** the RL, always was and always will be an over rated Honda sedan. $50K? That's a joke right there.

[siegen]

Honda/Acura is being run by a bunch of pu$$ys who think Americans can't handle RWD or even rear-wheel-biased AWD.

F*** the RL, always was and always will be an over rated Honda sedan. $50K? That's a joke right there.

Your posts are always fun to read

[balthazar]

AHM = American Honda Motor Co.

Of course, I actually knew that.

But how curious to refer to the NA sales arm of the corporation rather than the official corporate name. Or did a succession take place I missed media coverage of?

[regfootball]

M45 totally wanks all over the RL. the M45 is a car i would look at as a real car, not an Accord that just went to the all you can ingest buffet......

[Sixty8panther]

Your posts are always fun to read 

Just being honest. I think Honda & Toyota are in a dead heat for the most over rated and over-glorified car manufacturers of all time.

Let's take a short trip down memory lane and remember Honda/Acura's most interesting/influencial models.

[Robert Hall]

The purple thing in the fifth photo sure is strange.

[Sixty8panther]

Reg:

I could not have said it better myself. The M45 and Q are cars worthy of the Luxury & Presteige implied by their price, unlike the RL.

Damn Tripod... here's a "Sprocket".

I'm patiently awaiting some pictures of that ME V6 garbage that is refered to as a "poor man's exotic" yet gets spanked by the cheaper Corvette.

[Robert Hall]

One Honda I've liked for the last 15+ years is this:

And I'll own one sooner or later.. I've always liked styling, and love the way they drive...a friend of mine has a '91 that I've driven a few times, a very fun car on a windy road.

[siegen]

Sixty, don't you have anything better to do than find pictures of riced out old Honda's? This has to be the 4th or 5th time. I would go find a couple mustang, camaro, neon, etc riced out pics, but I don't feel like wasting my time.

Haha, actually I do feel like wasting my time:

This is an Escort with a mustang front I believe.

It's hard to find a stock Neon picture on google, people must really like to rice these things out:

And for good measure:

It's the bug off starship troopers!

But how curious to refer to the NA sales arm of the corporation rather than the official corporate name. Or did a succession take place I missed media coverage of?

I refer to AHM when talking about things happening in the U.S.A., if they were to make a V8 RWD, it would probably only exist here, like the Ridgeline and Civic Coupe, or in Europe. The markets between here and Japan are very different. Now if you're talking about the Legend or the Mugen concept, that would be Japan, but don't expect Honda to follow in Mugen's (aka M-Tec) footsteps and build a RWD V8 Legend for their market. And it's also easier to say AHM, than Honda in America.

[Sixty8panther]

Congradulations, you've found a Ford as hideous as the typical Honda Rice I see every day here in Mass. Ask XP, the rice in the Lowell area is at epidemic proportions.

Moltar: Thanks for calling the NSX what it really is: a Honda, not Ah-Cure-Ah. :AH-HA_wink:

[regfootball]

i followed an NSX out of the local gas station yesterday. I love that car. I would love to have one as a daily driver.

[Sixty8panther]

I think $40,000 is the cut off poitn for me at which a V6 no longer is acceptable. Not a natrually aspired V6 that is pretty unimpresive.

The NSX is just really a better executed Fireo from a better time period & for way more money.

[caddycruiser]

I think $40,000 is the cut off poitn for me at which a V6 no longer is acceptable. Not a natrually aspired V6 that is pretty unimpresive.

The NSX is just really a better executed Fireo from a better time period & for way more money.

That's a bit of a stretch, as I don't think there's any similarity between a crap bucket Fiero and a trully stunning NSX, but I sort of see the point.

Then again, the NSX is actually the one vehicle where no one ever really complained about it having a V6...it's a great engine, and when matched with the light weight and supercar handling, it does extremely well and is a very, very fast car.

Like I said before, getting back to the RL, even if it kept the V6 (this is Honda, and even though they seem to like keeping engines smaller, most buyers just enjoy them for the great power and refinement nonetheless), but had more interior room and much better styling, it would sell a lot stronger. The early 90's Hyundai-styling is the BIGGEST problem...with the V6 being down the line a bit.

[MyerShift]

The styling is definitely one of the RL's fallings.

Perhaps instead of spending the money needed to develop a proper flagship, Honda saw fit to badge-engineer its Legend sedan into the Acura RL. Because it is the Legend, styling couldn't really be changed, yes?

This is sort of confusing for even me while I try to explain it, because I know the TL is a sweetened, gussied up North America Accord, and the TSX is just the Euro Accord brought to NA, and what is the RSX- a tweaked Civic?

So if Acura restyled and tweaked the Accord into the sexy TL, why couldn't they have done the same with the Legend? It's just so boring to look at.

[VenSeattle]

I refer to AHM when talking about things happening in the U.S.A., if they were to make a V8 RWD, it would probably only exist here, like the Ridgeline and Civic Coupe, or in Europe. The markets between here and Japan are very different.

Why wouldn't it be sold in Japan? Toyota sells the RWD GS & LS in Japan, and Nissan sells a version of the M45 (Fuga) & Q45(Cima) in Japan.

All of them would be similar in size to a potential RWD Legend/RL replacement.

[regfootball]

the RL is really a sad excuse for a LUXURY car.

you want AWD, there's about 10 other cars to get before the fat Accord

S60R

A6

A4

3 series x

G35x

M35x

STS

doesn't some Lexus come with AWD now? cough---toyota I mean?

Passat 4motion

Mercedes

Subaru

[siegen]

the RL is really a sad excuse for a LUXURY car.

you want AWD, there's about 10 other cars to get before the fat Accord

S60R

A6

A4

3 series x

G35x

M35x

STS

doesn't some Lexus come with AWD now? cough---toyota I mean?

Passat 4motion

Mercedes

Subaru

Is there even any point in arguing with you if you aren't going to do any legwork yourself and actually learn about what you are trying to bash? Just saying things like the RL is a sad excuse for a luxury car is like me saying the Corvette is a sad excuse for a sports car. Why don't you give some reasons at least rather than pointing out a bunch of cheaper cars that have less sophisticated AWD systems than the RL?

Admittedly the RL doesn't really need a system like SH-AWD. It is a bit overkill for a luxury car, but it does make it handle extremely well. It would be better off with a regular gear driven AWD system or plain FWD/RWD. That would lower the weight some as well as the cost. It might even give a little more rear passenger room (the rear differential in the SH-AWD system is large).

[regfootball]

Is there even any point in arguing with you if you aren't going to do any legwork yourself and actually learn about what you are trying to bash? Just saying things like the RL is a sad excuse for a luxury car is like me saying the Corvette is a sad excuse for a sports car. Why don't you give some reasons at least rather than pointing out a bunch of cheaper cars that have less sophisticated AWD systems than the RL?

Admittedly the RL doesn't really need a system like SH-AWD. It is a bit overkill for a luxury car, but it does make it handle extremely well. It would be better off with a regular gear driven AWD system or plain FWD/RWD. That would lower the weight some as well as the cost. It might even give a little more rear passenger room (the rear differential in the SH-AWD system is large).

no legwork needed.

heavy

slow

dull to look at

overpriced

v6 only

lacks torque

no leg room in back

mistaken for accord or bloated mazda millenia

acura lacks brand cred compared to real luxury marques

gimmicky center stack

and finally did i mention OVERPRICED?

Edited February 23, 2006 by regfootball

[Sixty8panther]

Just saying things like the RL is a sad excuse for a luxury car is like me saying the Corvette is a sad excuse for a sports car.

Yeah because Corvettes are such slow sellers. :rotflmao:

Actauly unlike this POS OVER-priced Acura the Corvette spanks most cars double its price, the Z06 makes chasing the NSX around a racetrack look like fishing with dynamite.

BTW: Did I mention the first C6 Z06 sold out of Chevy of Lowell went for $7000 over MSRP?

[ToniCipriani]

Is there even any point in arguing with you if you aren't going to do any legwork yourself and actually learn about what you are trying to bash? Just saying things like the RL is a sad excuse for a luxury car is like me saying the Corvette is a sad excuse for a sports car. Why don't you give some reasons at least rather than pointing out a bunch of cheaper cars that have less sophisticated AWD systems than the RL?

Admittedly the RL doesn't really need a system like SH-AWD. It is a bit overkill for a luxury car, but it does make it handle extremely well. It would be better off with a regular gear driven AWD system or plain FWD/RWD. That would lower the weight some as well as the cost. It might even give a little more rear passenger room (the rear differential in the SH-AWD system is large).

Well, another possibility is because it employs AWD for the same reason as the Mazdaspeed 6: they can't distribute the horsepower and torque to two wheels.

And hell, GM has been doing it on 2 cars already with a chassis designed in the late 80s.

But our point is, the RL is not living up to its price range. That explains the slow sales. People don't justify paying that much for a Honda, no matter what badge they put on the front. It's still a Honda.

[regfootball]

who would be stupid enough to drop that much coin on an AWD Accord *cough* RL when the M45, bmw's, etc. exist?

[Petra]

One way to improve the RL: Offer a Hybrid version. I recall that, back before the RL came out, everybody was saying that there would be a Hybrid version that would pair V8 power with I-4 fuel economy. Nothing ever came of it, though, and soon, Lexus will beat Acura to the punch with their new LS.

SH-AWD is cool for sure, but it reminds me a lot of the ATTS system on the old Prelude: It sounded good on paper, but you wouldn't really notice it unless you were looking for it, or benefit from it unless you were driving at 9/10ths. With a Hybrid coupled to SH-AWD, Acura could've sold the RL as being a technological breakthrough. Too bad (for them, anyway).

[siegen]

no legwork needed.

heavy

slow

dull to look at

overpriced

v6 only

lacks torque

no leg room in back

mistaken for accord or bloated mazda millenia

acura lacks brand cred compared to real luxury marques

gimmicky center stack

and finally did i mention OVERPRICED?

You're still missing my point. Legwork implies looking up the actual numbers and comparing them to other vehicles, looking up features and comparing them to other vehicles in its price range, etc. Then when you say things like "heavy, slow, dull to look at", you then provide the numbers and show the research you've done so that what you've said has some sort of credibility.

Yeah because Corvettes are such slow sellers. :rotflmao:

Actauly unlike this POS OVER-priced Acura the Corvette spanks most cars double its price, the Z06 makes chasing the NSX around a racetrack look like fishing with dynamite.

BTW: Did I mention the first C6 Z06 sold out of Chevy of Lowell went for $7000 over MSRP?

Again, show me actual legwork and I may actually give your posts a second thought. Show me lap times in unbiased comparisons of the Corvette "spanking" other cars double its price (what about a Mitsubishi Evo?). Show me why the RL is overpriced, do you even know what kind of features come on it? I'm not saying the RL is the best example of packaging, but the 49k+ price tag doesn't come out of thin air.

Well, another possibility is because it employs AWD for the same reason as the Mazdaspeed 6: they can't distribute the horsepower and torque to two wheels.

And hell, GM has been doing it on 2 cars already with a chassis designed in the late 80s.

They can't distribute the power to two wheels? I don't get what you're trying to say. It employs the AWD system, because it is better than distributing the power to just two wheels (front or rear), aside from the extra weight.

GM has been doing what? Using AWD?

[ToniCipriani]

They can't distribute the power to two wheels? I don't get what you're trying to say. It employs the AWD system, because it is better than distributing the power to just two wheels (front or rear), aside from the extra weight.

GM has been doing what? Using AWD?

The Mazdaspeed 6 employs an AWD system because the 2.3L Turbo engine could not be used on the CD3 platform without insane torque steer. It has to be modified with the 500's AWD system to distribute the torque to all four wheels.

I was saying this could be a possible reason why Honda made the AWD system standard.

As for the GM comment, I was referring to the V8 W-bodies. They didn't need an AWD system to handle the HP. Those cars are still FWD only, yet they still handle very well.

[siegen]

The Mazdaspeed 6 employs an AWD system because the 2.3L Turbo engine could not be used on the CD3 platform without insane torque steer. It has to be modified with the 500's AWD system to distribute the torque to all four wheels.

I was saying this could be a possible reason why Honda made the AWD system standard.

As for the GM comment, I was referring to the V8 W-bodies. They didn't need an AWD system to handle the HP. Those cars are still FWD only, yet they still handle very well.

Ok I gotcha.

The TL with a similar V6 engine handles the power well (rated to 270hp). With the proper suspension geometry (among other things), they could make the RL handle fine with 300hp FWD (for a luxury car). RWD would still be better, and I'm still crossing my fingers for a 4.0L production V8 (it seems the next logical step from 3.5L V6 and they already make 4.0L V8's for some of their racing engines), but I don't think we'll see a RWD RL platform until a FMC.

The rumors of the V10 Acura (not the next NSX), that is supposed to be a luxury super car similar to an Aston Martin, could be the next RL. It may be RWD, but I wouldn't be surprised to see SH-AWD.

I don't think SH-AWD is a result of FWD not being good enough though. They could have just used a regular gear driven AWD system on the RL to overcome that. SH-AWD is designed to use all the good handling attributed of RWD, without any of the negatives (oversteer). It is kind of a technical show-off, which is why I said the packaging of the RL may be off, it doesn't really need SH-AWD.

[regfootball]

The Mazdaspeed 6 employs an AWD system because the 2.3L Turbo engine could not be used on the CD3 platform without insane torque steer. It has to be modified with the 500's AWD system to distribute the torque to all four wheels.

I was saying this could be a possible reason why Honda made the AWD system standard.

As for the GM comment, I was referring to the V8 W-bodies. They didn't need an AWD system to handle the HP. Those cars are still FWD only, yet they still handle very well.

and they don't have a lot of torque steer (yes I drove one)

[regfootball]

All in all, the RL is a pretty pointless car.

it doesn't lead in the styling arena

it can't outmuscle any cars

its too heavy to outhandle any competitors

it doesn't win in the usable space department

it has gadgets but sadly does not win the gadget trophy

its price vs. what you get is in no way compelling

so in the end we get an Accord AWD for twice the price.