My 'Outlook'

[zhawk]

Good luck on running things here Brian. That said, I don't think it was truly necessary for Josh to step down. Doing so was a very stand up act though. Thanks for taking responsibility. And good luck bud.

As for those who continue to knock him. Get over yourselves. Crap happens and this time a very good guy got taken.

I may disagree with opinions of some of the people here (who doesn't) but I have noticed a very high level of integrity from the Admins here. Let's see you get this level of responsibility from CNN or any other major news source when they mess up.

[Dragon]

Now I’m not the insider like some of the guys on this site are, but I have worked for a variety of company’s that supply parts for GM so I do have some experience with GM documents. What set off the first bell in my head is that it was a powerpoint document. While it’s rare, I have seen one or two powerpoint doc’s from GM, but never for something as important as this. Usually they would send out a PDF file for something like this, and/or excel file for less important doc’s. The next thing was the lack of GM letterhead, which really sent bells off. Lastly, the lack of a name & position at the end sealed the deal for me.

All that being said, 99% looked at it with a biased view, we all know it was fake before we saw it. None of can say for sure we would have known it to be fake if we had been in Josh’s position. Personally, had it come from a trusted source who said it was real, some of the bells might not have gone off, or at least been a lot quieter. And knowing the craving for information on this forum, I might have tuned out any doubts.

Not too mention, its not like this is the first time false info has been posted here. None of us are perfect afterall. Well, maybe Chuck Norris, but thats another thread.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Dragon

[Hogans_Heroes]

...

Edited February 21, 2006 by Hogans_Heroes

[Hogans_Heroes]

Font is described as being both "Arial" and "GM Sans Regular".

Edited February 21, 2006 by Hogans_Heroes

[Hogans_Heroes]

Okay, so I see reading through the posts that this line of inquiry has been explored already.  Another tidbit: the font is described as being "Arial" and "GM Sans Regular".

Okay, did a little primary research. Spoke to a couple of people who work at GM or have worked at GM. It seems their computer IDs, created by EDS, do not follow the code of "Initial of First Name, Last Name, numbers". Instead, it's a strange amolgamation of letters like "dkshn4", so the document's "Author" and "Company" information is increasingly looking like it may have been tampered with (and not Victor Rosas!). The "Font" information, though, you would have had to have been a little more crafty to think of tampering.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Hogans_Heroes

[ToniCipriani]

This may sound like after-talk...

But going forward, should we implement a system to moderate any info with all upper managment of this site before it gets posted, if we don't have such a system already?

[Camino LS6]

This may sound like after-talk...

But going forward, should we implement a system to moderate any info with all upper managment of this site before it gets posted, if we don't have such a system already?

Already happening. We set to work on this in the admin. forum Immediately for obvious reasons. Yes we have a framework in place and will be fine-tuning it as we go forward.

[Guest Josh]

H.H.

I would have to think the Feb 14th information would point us in the direction of who would have done this:

Statistics

Created: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:41:47 PM  [original creation date of the file]

Last saved by:  Chris  [the local user id of the ppt application user]

If I recall without referencing my email that is the date in which I received the e-mail with the initial attatchment.

[Guest Josh]

Also in the properties tab, it's easy to see this person "Chris" made 11 revisions for a total time of 102 minutes.

[Cananopie]

wow, ive been sitting her shaking my head in disbelief reading some of the replies in this topic. i have been a member of this site for just over a year now and love to read big scoops and rumors and I know NEVER EVER to hold anything to be 100 percent truth until it I hear it from GM's own mouth. All you people critiziing Josh need to get down from your mother fricking high horse and back off. All he ever did was publish a rumor that he had heard through the grapevine, never did he say to go to vegas and bet ur bank on it, now everytime someone gets there hands on some juicy information they are going to be hesitant to post because of you a**es. face it! we all love c&g for the fact that we can hear the rumors and hot topics here before anywhere else, true or untrue who gives a crap its what we live for and in the end we always find out the true facts. You guys gotta think back to this summer and the great C&G crash and remember that there pretty much wouldnt be a cheersandgears without Josh.

Josh you did nothing wrong and I hope you will stick around because you are for sure one of our most valuable members.

I agree. Josh is no worse than anyone else here and if it wasn't for Josh this site would not be nearly as good as it is. It must be real easy to wake up turn on your computer, make snarky comments and leave. If you think you're so much better at running an enthusiast site there are about a million domain names out there just waiting for your cash, time, and effort. Some people need to relax with Josh. I do appreciate every person who has spent money and time consistently to keep this forum in existence. Mistakes happen and Josh has always, always, always tried to keep this a reputable and credible site and has always worked so hard to care for it.

[BigPontiac]

H.H.

I would have to think the Feb 14th information would point us in the direction of who would have done this:

If I recall without referencing my email that is the date in which I received the e-mail with the initial attatchment.

The strange part is that it's dated Monday, Feb 14, 2005

Feb 14, 2006 was a Tuesday...so either this person's PC clock settings are off by 1 yr or this information may not be that helpful... Agreed the font info is much more "ingrained" in the document and harder to eliminate than the basic properties.

Do you still have the original e-mails? Can you validate the mail headers in the messages to see if the originating e-mail address was forged? If you received it at your C&G address, you should be able to ask your ISP to look through the maillog to validate the originating source...same for Postfix or Sendmail.

[Guest Josh]

So what we have figured out are a few things:

1) The date in which the file was made was Feb 14th 2005, not last edited.

2) 11 changes were made to the document and

3) Two different fonts were used. One from GM from the original ppt file, and Ariel from somebody out in the "real world" that made the changes.

[97regalGS]

1) You've never seen anything like it before....

2) But you're quick to say it's not hard to replicate to look authentic.

3) 3rd party sources know absolutely nothing until 4 or 5 months down the line on anything.

So, first you say you've never seen anything like the document before, then you say you're quick to discredit it because it could easily be replicated...well, couldn't ANY PDF file?

Furthermore, the GMX 002 was cited which WAS cancelled shortly after ummm i ran with the exclusive on that which is/was legit. 32k+ views say so and they aren't all from "enthusiasts"...don't believe me? You will see the vehicle soon enough. But wait, ask one of the "insiders" they will not know.

Second, the file you viewed was a file that was resized automatically by the board software in which we use, the full PDF is very legitimate in looks and structure.

I have no more reason to explain myself, perhaps another "enthusiast site" can say who uses the e-mail or "back up" email of "[email protected]"...since I remember seeing it attatched to a member here previous but has unfortunately been changed to one we selected to prevent the member in question from returning. aka a troll...

my point is that given the fact that the technology exists to 'chop' digital pictures of cars beyond recognition, it seems reasonable to presume that someone can forge a ppt or pdf to make it look like it came from GM or any other company. and by the way, i didn't say to discredit it. i said, given the scope of it wouldn't it have been prudent to verify with someone else before running with the story.

however, that goes back to you to figure our how much faith/trust you place in the source. if they'd sent you 100 tips prior and they were all legit, then either this one was an error/oversight, or you were set-up.

like i said earlier, i didn't get the chance to read your original post, so can't comment directly as it's not clear to me exactly what your post said. but, 'Outlook is shelved. Outlook is delayed. Outlook is Killed.' all have different meanings. However, based on the mixed comments of those responding, your post was less than concise on what the real issue was and what was really happening.

If the ppt that you posted doesn't look like what you saw then don't post it. this is a great example of misinformation. you say, 'look what i saw'. i comment, 'it looks off', so you reply, 'well that's not exactly what i saw, it looked different on my computer.' my point is, either show me exactly what you saw, or at least indicate that the content is accurate but the format is off.

finally, i'm not sure what your post said, but the document you posted says GM Confidential. not sure if your post constituted a breach of this confidentiality or not, again, as I didn't read it. my opinion, is that you would not knowlingly violate

it. (fact that the NG CTS was yanked pretty quickly and remains hidden... at least publically, as I'm sure all the mods and a ton of others have seen it).

which leads me to one last an final comment/question. is the purpose of C&G to engage in meaningful dialogue on GM specifically and the auto industry in general based on rumours, hints and even facts. or, is it an automotive journal focussed on 'scooping' others in the industry with 'first to press' facts? is the goal to be first or to be right?

[boblutzfan]

my point is that given the fact that the technology exists to 'chop' digital pictures of cars beyond recognition, it seems reasonable to presume that someone can forge a ppt or pdf to make it look like it came from GM or any other company.  and by the way, i didn't say to discredit it. i said, given the scope of it wouldn't it have been prudent to verify with someone else before running with the story.

however, that goes back to you to figure our how much faith/trust you place in the source.  if they'd sent you 100 tips prior and they were all legit, then either this one was an error/oversight, or you were set-up.

like i said earlier, i didn't get the chance to read your original post, so can't comment directly as it's not clear to me exactly what your post said.  but, 'Outlook is shelved. Outlook is delayed. Outlook is Killed.' all have different meanings.  However, based on the mixed comments of those responding, your post was less than concise on what the real issue was and what was really happening.

If the ppt that you posted doesn't look like what you saw then don't post it.  this is a great example of misinformation. you say, 'look what i saw'. i comment, 'it looks off', so you reply, 'well that's not exactly what i saw, it looked different on my computer.'  my point is, either show me exactly what you saw, or at least indicate that the content is accurate but the format is off.

finally, i'm not sure what your post said, but the document you posted says GM Confidential. not sure if your post constituted a breach of this confidentiality or not, again, as I didn't read it.  my opinion, is that you would not knowlingly violate

it. (fact that the NG CTS was yanked pretty quickly and remains hidden... at least publically, as I'm sure all the mods and a ton of others have seen it).

which leads me to one last an final comment/question.  is the purpose of C&G to engage in meaningful dialogue on GM specifically and the auto industry in general based on rumours, hints and even facts.  or, is it an automotive journal focussed on 'scooping' others in the industry with 'first to press' facts?  is the goal to be first or to be right?

Great read.

[z28luvr01]

97RegalGS: I really don't think there's any need for grilling Josh any further than you aready have. I have been on this site long enough to know that C&G is not nor has it ever been a source of shock journalism, and anything that appears on this site has some sort of "source" behind it. Only this time the source turned out to be illegitimate.

In any case, the damage has been done. If you're looking for an apology, you already got one. It's time to move forward.

[Flybrian]

which leads me to one last an final comment/question.  is the purpose of C&G to engage in meaningful dialogue on GM specifically and the auto industry in general based on rumours, hints and even facts.  or, is it an automotive journal focussed on 'scooping' others in the industry with 'first to press' facts?  is the goal to be first or to be right?

This should've been answered by the very first post in this thread.

Again, a mistake was made, two apologies were issued. What else would you like?

[boblutzfan]

Just a thought: There are a couple of valid reasons why GM would ask/demand the original post be taken down.

1) The memo was completely false - GM on a mission to reduce the negative publicity might have acted quickly to minimize the damage that this would cause.

2) The memo had some truth to it - GM would leverage the statement that the memo was confidential and use that to enforce the removal.

Given all the red flags that have been pointed out over the past couple of days I tend to think that #1 is true and that GM acted to minimize further bad PR. However, I am curious as to what GM said to get this removed. How was the request made? What did they say? Who did they contact?

[99camaroSS]

[97regalGS]

This should've been answered by the very first post in this thread.

Again, a mistake was made, two apologies were issued. What else would you like?

i don't want anything else.

Josh chose to post, with the .ppt file. I chose to respond. end of story.

btw, I find the witch hunt a complete red herring to what happened and why. it's an interesting sidebar but not core to the decision to run with the story.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Furthermore the name "Chris" reminds me of somebody awfully familiar and no, not Doane, Pauwels or Horton.

Wasn't there just a plain old member here with the username "Chris" awhile back? (Spelling: "chris".) I could have sworn there was...

Maybe it was the guy who did the hacking on the old site. (Remember? The porno on the front page?)

[prinzSD]

To Brian, good luck on head honcho around here

As someone who works in the news industry let me the first to say that Josh should not be thrown under the bus and or his named dragged through the mud. When one gets a piece of news they suspect to be true they are put in a difficult position of if they are right, they are hero but if their story turns out to be false they are looked at as if they have the plague and not to be spoken to again.

I don't know how Josh recieved his information and who his sources were when confirming this information but let it be understood that it is quite possible that a source that has been dead on 100 times in the past has the potential to be dead wrong maybe once. I give Josh credit for saying he was wrong and stepping down from his post, I hope he continues to be a part of the GM online community

Stepping down seems a little to harsh. Whatever I read, I always read with the thgought that there may be some inaccuracies, so I do not place all the blame at Josh's feet. To Brian, good luck and this in no way diminishes my enthusiasm for Cheers and Geers. It's the first site I launch when I sit at my computer and it will remain so. Keep up the good work guys.

[Dragon]

[Simon C]

From what I've been reading ... C&G is alot like politics. You have your Democrats over here, and your Republicans over there. And in between, you have your Independants.

In each group you have your radicals. Those who just want to cause trouble and get things started. Everyone just needs to sit back, don't believe everthing you hear, and enjoy our website.

Josh,

Your a good guy. Hang in there buddy.

Simon C.

[HUMVEE]

Josh, I will say this, While I was dissappointed with the thread, all I wanted was for you to either retract, or clarify. I don't believe you had to step down. Hell, if the NY Times people stepped down every time they were wrong, there'd be no NY Times! Hmmm, there's a thought, but I digress.. Anyway, You made a mistake, we all do, but I really don't think MOST members of this site want you gone.

All that being said, I wish you well in whatever you do and this site also!

Now, can we get back to having Auto news on the front page?

[gmwsag]

Josh and Brian, thanks for coming out and issuing apologies. It's glad that we do have clarification at this website. BUT, I am not happy that one mistake has become (as Simon C says) "political". We are treating this mistake like Hurricane Katrina or something. In Hurricane Katrina, FEMA's director Michael Brown was blamed for failing to properly prepare AND react to Hurricane Katrina.

As much as Josh was wrong to do what he did, we shouldn't all say "we were duped" like Oprah did to James Frey. We should all move on. So, a fabricated story was brought out. Big deal. Move along. (That song is good, isn't it? )

Edited February 26, 2006 by gmwsag

[97regalGS]

Josh and Brian, thanks for coming out and issuing apologies. It's glad that we do have clarification at this website. BUT, I am not happy that one mistake has become (as Simon C says) "political". We are treating this mistake like Hurricane Katrina or something. In Hurricane Katrina, FEMA's director Michael Brown was blamed for failing to properly prepare AND react to Hurricane Katrina.

As much as Josh was wrong to do what he did, we shouldn't all say "we were duped" like Oprah did to James Frey. We should all move on. So, a fabricated story was brought out. Big deal. Move along. (That song is good, isn't it? )

if only it was as simple as Josh posting mis-information. there is far more to it than that.

[haypops]

If no one objects, I would like to talk cars.

<<So what about the Acadia? "The GMC is hot," the Lansing State Journal reported Welburn as saying. "It has got a flair. I think it will surprise a lot of people." Perhaps GM has finally learned that its customers want distinctive models.

>>

That quote comes from this article , a seondary source.

In general the article describes how the Outlook will not look like the Enclave which has premiered at the auto show. The quote was interesting to me because it seems to be hinting that GMC's version, the Arcadia, may be the best of the trio. That would be surprising considering how little it has been discussed in the past. Time wil tell.

[z28luvr01]

Thank you, haypops. The witch hunt is OVER. Move on.

[CSpec]

It would be very surprising that the GMC is the best of the three, considering it was going to be a Pontiac until relatively recently. However, I think a lot of people will find the Saturn to be a great bargain compared to the Enclave.

[97regalGS]

there is no witch hunt. (someone thru some water on him and he melted!)

if you want to talk cars, then we should move to a new thread as this one started out as an apology from flybrian, not as a discussion about cars.

[z28luvr01]

Arright, 97RegalGS. You leave me no choice: