My 'Outlook'

[Flybrian]

To all our readers,

Our Chief Editor, Josh Oliver, received unconfirmed information concerning the Saturn Outlook and posted an article that could've been alot better put together. The haste with which it was written has contributed to considerable debate and has raised the ire of many on this board.

As of tonight I have received information from two reliable sources that the alleged Outlook reevaluation document was fabricated. That is to say, all information regarding it was false.

For the controversy this has caused, I ask you to consider that our editors have to constantly walk a fine line with the exclusives we run and the stories we break. We always strive for quality and accuracy in our reporting while protecting the confidentiality of our sources. Yet, sometimes the best of intentions don’t produce the best results.

For those of you that felt the Outlook article was below our standards, I apologize and with that renew my commitment to you that we continue to hold both our articles and our editors to a higher level.

Let’s continue to work together to uphold our tradition of being GM’S Biggest Fans and Toughest Critics.

Thank you,

Brian Dreggors,

Administrator

[sigma]

Thanks for the letter. The story made no sense to me or many others considering the stage the project was at. It is important. not just to be first, but to be right. I appreciate any effort taken to make sure such a blunder doesn't happen again.

[Achelous]

Thanks so much for this. It is exactly what was needed and clears the air quite a bit. I think we all realize that it's difficult to separate fact from fiction sometimes and are generally pleased with the journalistic standards of this site. Thanks again.

[JazzyChef]

I would like to say that I was a little more than aggrivated with the story, it was unprofesional and uncalled for. It should have been posted in a "Rumors" message board, not on the main headline! Apology accepted but know that some trust in C&G has been lost and can't be regained.

[knightfan26917]

...know that some trust in C&G has been lost and can't be regained.

Ironically, same thing has happened to GM/Chevrolet.

I'm not sure which was more frustrating/shocking with this entire event. The original post ... or the discussion (if one might call it that) that followed.

I hope we can put this behind us and go forth....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[Guest Josh]

With Flybrians post, I will add that he is the new "Chief" Administrator of C&G as I will be relinquishing my duties on the web-site due to the story that I ran.

Plain and simply put, I was had and I was done so by somebody that picked a moment and jumped on it. I do feel however that some other "enthusiast" web site may have played a part and for this, I do apologize to C&G members and especially to General Motors for my lack of judgement.

That said, Fly is the new guy around town here and he is the new man calling the shots.

[Drew Dowdell]

Where does the money that many of us donated to the site go?

[Supergrobo82]

To Brian, good luck on head honcho around here

As someone who works in the news industry let me the first to say that Josh should not be thrown under the bus and or his named dragged through the mud. When one gets a piece of news they suspect to be true they are put in a difficult position of if they are right, they are hero but if their story turns out to be false they are looked at as if they have the plague and not to be spoken to again.

I don't know how Josh recieved his information and who his sources were when confirming this information but let it be understood that it is quite possible that a source that has been dead on 100 times in the past has the potential to be dead wrong maybe once. I give Josh credit for saying he was wrong and stepping down from his post, I hope he continues to be a part of the GM online community

[evok]

Where does the money that many of us donated to the site go?

St.Ides

[Northstar]

Where does the money that many of us donated to the site go?

I believe Josh still is going to pay for the site. Fly is just the head admin now.

[97regalGS]

St.Ides

is that the 'original' or one of the special flavors?

[Flybrian]

For anyone with any questions, whatever they may be, regarding the site, please feel free to PM me or post questions here.

To let everyone know, the 'transition' was complete the moment of Josh's post. Expect changes, but as always for the better as we have been planning upgrades and such all along.

Thanks to those who offered their support and words of encouragement. Its a big pair of shoes to fill, but I accept.

[vinz96z]

I seemed to have missed this post. Can someone post a link or has it been pulled?

[Cananopie]

I like both Fly and Josh as admins and I think you both have done great things for C&G. I don't know exactly what duties Josh held as "chief" that he's relinquishing but I think Fly's explanation about how this is a site that has to take some chances in order to be so late-breaking is completely acceptable. It's not like Josh isn't obviously apologetic and I think the way Josh handled the situation only should make this site more credible. It's obvious both Josh and Fly commit very much to this site and anybody who is still upset after Josh reliniquished his title should relax a little. He obviously takes this even more serious than the rest of us so relax.

I think both Fly and Josh are great admins and really keep this site running well. whoevers in charge will do a great job I have no doubt. Mistakes happen. Nobody is perfect.

[jvcmike]

With Flybrians post, I will add that he is the new "Chief" Administrator of C&G as I will be relinquishing my duties on the web-site due to the story that I ran.

Plain and simply put, I was had and I was done so by somebody that picked a moment and jumped on it. I do feel however that some other "enthusiast" web site may have played a part and for this, I do apologize to C&G members and especially to General Motors for my lack of judgement.

That said, Fly is the new guy around town here and he is the new man calling the shots.

Did you really have to step down?, I think everyone deserves a least one mistake. I commend you for owning up to it, how many people do that in this day and age. Our society expects everything to go perfect and that is just not going to happen. Do not let the harsh critics get you down, because if you do that they will be so please in their little self served world.

Edited February 20, 2006 by jvcmike

[Cadillacfan]

I think if anyone is to blame, it is the person who created that false document. While Josh did jump the gun a bit in reporting it, I think anyone else who saw it would have probably done the same thing.

Josh should be commended for backing away from his duties. It shows true class and shows that he really wants the site to prosper.

[97regalGS]

I think if anyone is to blame, it is the person who created that false document.  While Josh did jump the gun a bit in reporting it, I think anyone else who saw it would have probably done the same thing.

Josh should be commended for backing away from his duties.  It shows true class and shows that he really wants the site to prosper.

not to beat a dead horse here, but Josh was not the only person that had access to this document, but somehow was the only one who published it? (as far as I've heard).

[Sixty8panther]

eh, mistakes happen... no biggie.

[greg_nate]

St.Ides

You mean St. Ides, the wretched fortified beer? Drink it, and its a tossup as to which comes first: Drunkenness or stomach cancer.

[bowtie_dude]

I think Josh stepping down is a little rash. He made a mistake, its not like he sold GM information to Toyota or something...

[sciguy_0504]

I think Josh stepping down is a little rash.  He made a mistake, its not like he sold GM information to Toyota or something...

Still, glad to have Brian on board.

[97regalGS]

I think Josh stepping down is a little rash.  He made a mistake, its not like he sold GM information to Toyota or something...

i suspect there is more to it than this one instance. (pure speculation).

[Croc]

i suspect there is more to it than this one instance. (pure speculation).

You should make a high-dollar bet with someone on this, though I'd feel kinda bad for the other guy...(not pure speculation) Edited February 21, 2006 by Croc

[97regalGS]

You should make a high-dollar bet with someone on this, though I'd feel kinda bad for the other guy...(not pure speculation)

so, you wanna bet?

[Croc]

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight :AH-HA_wink:

[boblutzfan]

I don't think Josh would have had to step down if he had immediately posted a statement on the home page when GM asked that the page be taken down. In stead, he continued to defend his statement and refuse to take responsibility. Even still, he states that he was mislead. Well, sorry. I could tell you that NASA has purchased GM and will sell moonrovers at the Saturn dealership... but I am not to blame if you go and post that on your website for the world to read. It is your job as a journalist to research my claim before you tell the world.

[Camino LS6]

I have to chime in here by saying that very convincing information was presented to Josh in a seemingly calculated way and though the presentation was lacking , his only intent was to bring us all the sort of information we crave. As a member of the C&G team, I can tell you that he had our interests in mind when breaking a story he believed to be genuine. As a mod/admin I would warn anyone planning to attack his character that personal attacks against any member are against C&G rules and won't be tolerated.

Finally, the fact is that Josh DID NOT publish the document that led to all of this! He relayed the news he'd received with disbelief and the proper qualifiers, at no time did he proclaim the cancellation of the Outlook. He raised the possibility. Some folks should work on their reading comprehension before jumping on a soapbox.

[97regalGS]

I have to chime in here by saying that very convincing information was presented to Josh in a seemingly calculated way and though the presentation was lacking , his only intent was to bring us all the sort of information we crave. As a member of the C&G team, I can tell you that he had our interests in mind when breaking a story he believed to be genuine. As a mod/admin I would warn anyone planning to attack his character that personal attacks against any member are against C&G rules and won't be tolerated.

Finally, the fact is that Josh DID NOT publish the document that led to all of this!  He relayed the news he'd received with disbelief and the proper qualifiers, at no time did he proclaim the cancellation of the Outlook. He raised the possibility. Some folks should work on their reading comprehension before jumping on a soapbox.

i'd love to work on my reading comprehension, but unfortunately the article has been pulled from the web site.

define convincing information? josh seems to know a whole heck of a lot about stuff that most people don't. didn't he check with some other 'reputable' sources before posting? (I can think of several that frequent this site.) or did he just fly off the handle to get a 'scoop'?

i'm not questioning his character, just his diligence in obtaining the facts, and his poor judgement.

[Guest Josh]

This is it, you tell me. I need to set the record straight, so take what you will from the below PDF file sent to me from

[email protected]

The person who sent the e-mail also sent a follow up message telling me "not to believe everything I read joshiepoo"...which set off an immediate fire alarm and prompted my resignation that is enforce and will be from yesterday on in.

NA_GMT966_021306_64738.ppt

[CaddyXLR-V]

Some of you are really taking this too far. You are not responsible for the site. It is not your responsability to run the site, or manage how it is run, so let it go. It's over. Mistake or no mistake, it's done and over with.

[Variance]

The person who sent the e-mail also sent a follow up message telling me "not to believe everything I read joshiepoo"...

O...M...F...G...

At any rate, sorry to see you step down over this, Josh.

[Cadillacfan]

Upon viewing that document, I must say that it looks very unprofessional and appears to not follow any formal/business form structure.

Josh. Sounds like whoever sent this has a personal vendetta against you.

If I were you, I'd kick some serious ass.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[97regalGS]

This is it, you tell me. I need to set the record straight, so take what you will from the below PDF file sent to me from

[email protected]

The person who sent the e-mail also sent a follow up message telling me "not to believe everything I read joshiepoo"...which set off an immediate fire alarm and prompted my resignation that is enforce and will be from yesterday on in.

means nothing to me. i've never seen anything like that before so couldn't tell ya if it's real, bogus or somewhere inbetween. but given the lack of nuances on it, not to hard to replicate to make it look authentic. but regardless of whether that file was real or bs, there are a number of 3rd party sources that could have been contacted to verify it's accuracy. and as for the person that sent it, either they are a trusted source of info and you didn't feel you needed to verify or you skipped that step.

when we claim to be GM's biggest fans and toughest critics, we like to do so based on facts, or with the clear understanding that we're talking about speculative information.

IMO here's the difference

fact: there are no RFQ's for the Camaro so there is no official Camaro program.

speculation: the new Camaro will have 3 engine choices and 4 trim levels

having said that, i did not read your original post, but clearly, it was less than crisp in terms of explaining what the issues were and the potential ramifications. it apparently was misleading on exactly what was fact and what was not.

[97regalGS]

Some of you are really taking this too far. You are not responsible for the site. It is not your responsability to run the site, or manage how it is run, so let it go. It's over. Mistake or no mistake, it's done and over with.

but there is nothing else to talk about until Geneva.

[97regalGS]

This is it, you tell me. I need to set the record straight, so take what you will from the below PDF file sent to me from

[email protected]

BTW, just who is warren8391 anyway?

[boblutzfan]

This is it, you tell me. I need to set the record straight, so take what you will from the below PDF file sent to me from

[email protected]

The person who sent the e-mail also sent a follow up message telling me "not to believe everything I read joshiepoo"...which set off an immediate fire alarm and prompted my resignation that is enforce and will be from yesterday on in.

Ok Josh, this pdf file is very interesting. Having never seen an internal GM memo it is hard to say one way or another if this is genuine. I have a hard time imagining that it could be for real after a successful Buick Enclave Launch and Bob Lutz telling the media that this was near production ready.

Do you know who sent this to you? Is warren8391 a gm employee? I would love for AH-HA to comment on this memo. Is anyone else on this website a true gm insider? Does this memo look legit?

Also, what are the following codes? What vehicles do they represent?

GMT 966

GMT 967

GMT 968

GMX 002

This topic has caused a lot of discussion but now Josh has stepped up and provided the originating memo and person (email address). Thank you Josh. Now we have some real information to work with.

Edited February 21, 2006 by boblutzfan

[Croc]

I believe GMT 966 is Outlook, and GMX 002 was the next ION.

GMT 967 and 968 would be Enclave and Acadia, or vice versa.

[boblutzfan]

BTW, just who is warren8391 anyway?

Yeah, who is this guy? Josh, is he a GM employee? What else did he say when he slipped you this pdf file?

[boblutzfan]

I believe GMT 966 is Outlook, and GMX 002 was the next ION.

GMT 967 and 968 would be Enclave and Acadia, or vice versa.

So according to the memo - gm is calling for a review of basically the entire car? That doesn't make sense - especially if the other two platform mates are going forward. Notice that it says that production and remaining development be stopped all items in the list. There are many things on the list that are not unique to the Outlook:

Brake Components

Sunroof

Torque Converter

Transmissions (plural - very curious if true)

Driveshaft

The other items are brand specific - but I fail to see why GM would order production and remaining development be stopped on these undoubtedly common parts? While the request includes the common parts it goes on to say that all work on the GMT 997 and 998 should continue as scheduled.

It just doesn't make sense. Again, I would like some insite from someone who knows what these GM memos look like.

[Guest Josh]

means nothing to me.  i've never seen anything like that before so couldn't tell ya if it's real, bogus or somewhere inbetween. but given the lack of nuances on it, not to hard to replicate to make it look authentic.  but regardless of whether that file was real or bs, there are a number of 3rd party sources that could have been contacted to verify it's accuracy. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1) You've never seen anything like it before....

2) But you're quick to say it's not hard to replicate to look authentic.

3) 3rd party sources know absolutely nothing until 4 or 5 months down the line on anything.

So, first you say you've never seen anything like the document before, then you say you're quick to discredit it because it could easily be replicated...well, couldn't ANY PDF file?

Furthermore, the GMX 002 was cited which WAS cancelled shortly after ummm i ran with the exclusive on that which is/was legit. 32k+ views say so and they aren't all from "enthusiasts"...don't believe me? You will see the vehicle soon enough. But wait, ask one of the "insiders" they will not know.

Second, the file you viewed was a file that was resized automatically by the board software in which we use, the full PDF is very legitimate in looks and structure.

I have no more reason to explain myself, perhaps another "enthusiast site" can say who uses the e-mail or "back up" email of "[email protected]"...since I remember seeing it attatched to a member here previous but has unfortunately been changed to one we selected to prevent the member in question from returning. aka a troll...

[boblutzfan]

I have no more reason to explain myself, perhaps another "enthusiast site" can say who uses the e-mail or "back up" email of "[email protected]"...since I remember seeing it attatched to a member here previous but has unfortunately been changed to one we selected to prevent the member in question from returning. aka a troll...

So the file you recieved was from a troll?

[BigPontiac]

The attached file was a native powerpoint document, not a pdf file. For insight, I'd suggest looking at the document properties. The interesting ones are as follows:

General

Author: VRosas0271 [likely the person who created the original ppt template]

Statistics

Created: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:41:47 PM [original creation date of the file]

Last saved by: Chris [the local user id of the ppt application user]

So Josh, if you didn't save the file once you copied it to your local harddrive, this user id could be a possible link to your document author...

[99camaroSS]

wow, ive been sitting her shaking my head in disbelief reading some of the replies in this topic. i have been a member of this site for just over a year now and love to read big scoops and rumors and I know NEVER EVER to hold anything to be 100 percent truth until it I hear it from GM's own mouth. All you people critiziing Josh need to get down from your mother fricking high horse and back off. All he ever did was publish a rumor that he had heard through the grapevine, never did he say to go to vegas and bet ur bank on it, now everytime someone gets there hands on some juicy information they are going to be hesitant to post because of you a**es. face it! we all love c&g for the fact that we can hear the rumors and hot topics here before anywhere else, true or untrue who gives a crap its what we live for and in the end we always find out the true facts. You guys gotta think back to this summer and the great C&G crash and remember that there pretty much wouldnt be a cheersandgears without Josh.

Josh you did nothing wrong and I hope you will stick around because you are for sure one of our most valuable members.

[Guest Josh]

So the file you recieved was from a troll?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've received information from the past from this person, but this latest communcation was sent deliberatly to cause the problems it has caused.

Again, I only present what I feel is legitimate news, which every piece has been however I am done from the Outlook story forward simply because I made a poor decision.

I get accused of being arrogant and out of touch because of how I am or the person I am...well, so be it, however the Outlook story is it for me, I passed along information that was false, however the power point presentation I was given looked 100% legitimate and I do feel more than one person was involved in it.

Do I care? Absolutely.

Will I lose sleep over it? Absolutely not. Because in the long run GM does not care about this site with the exception of Mr. Settlemire.

[boblutzfan]

The attached file was a native powerpoint document, not a pdf file.  For insight, I'd suggest looking at the document properties.  The interesting ones are as follows:

General

Author:  VRosas0271  [likely the person who created the original ppt template]

Statistics

Created: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:41:47 PM  [original creation date of the file]

Last saved by:  Chris  [the local user id of the ppt application user]

So Josh, if you didn't save the file once you copied it to your local harddrive, this user id could be a possible link to your document author...

Very interesting. So who is VRosas0271?

[Guest Josh]

Furthermore the name "Chris" reminds me of somebody awfully familiar and no, not Doane, Pauwels or Horton.

Rather the file seems to be something that somebody saved then modified with the changes coming from "Chris"...

[Croc]

you don't mean the guy whose username was just "chris" do you?

EDIT: No way in hell it's "chris"

Edited February 21, 2006 by Croc

[Guest Josh]

you don't mean the guy whose username was just "chris" do you?

EDIT:  No way in hell it's "chris"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was a long time mod and somebody I communicate with on a basis, not him. I'm thinking more along the lines of somebody not assocatiated with this web-site at all.

[BigPontiac]

you don't mean the guy whose username was just "chris" do you?

EDIT:  No way in hell it's "chris"

User id as in the user id on the author's local Windows OS (XP, W2K, etc). Office products like Powerpoint will take a user id or initials (depending how you set it up) and include it in the properties of all your office files.

[Croc]

Yea yea, I was just typing stream-of-thought and realized it wasn't that chris at all...because he was a mod and I know he'd never do something like that.