Spy Shots: Wide-body Cadillac CTS-V for 2007

[Variance]

Wide-body Cadillac CTS-V could debut for 2007

By Ed Hellwig Email

Date posted: 02-16-2006

The current Cadillac CTS-V isn't the BMW M5 killer General Motors hoped it would be. With the introduction of the more powerful 2006 M5, the CTS-V is 100 hp off the mark. Add in its lame interior and its vague steering and the Caddy's $50,000 price doesn't look like such a bargain.

We know a full-blown redesign of the CTS is already a done deal, but our latest spy photos show a prototype that hints at the possibility of a midcycle upgrade for the CTS-V. Caught testing at GM's Milford proving grounds, this prototype wears extended bodywork from nose to tail similar to Cadillac's CTS-V racecars. We've seen CTS prototypes like this before circling the Nürburgring, but they rarely had the level of fit and finish visible on this test car. This prototype also has a standard set of rear exhaust pipes. On the racecar the pipes poke through the bodywork ahead of the rear wheels.

And it's not just the bodywork that looks suitable for production. Check out the wheels and tires. Instead of ultralightweight O-Z racing wheels and low-profile slicks, this prototype is riding on wheels with the same design as the current CTS-V. They're not exactly the same, however, as you can clearly see that these wheels have lots of offset to accommodate wider tires. The change isn't just functional, it emphasizes the car's rear-wheel-drive setup. It's a styling trick BMW has used for decades now; it's about time Cadillac caught up.

If this car does turn out to be an actual production model, there will be more than just wider bodywork and a new set of wheels and tires to talk about. We would expect nothing less than a serious suspension upgrade along with the installation of the 505-horsepower, 7.0-liter LS7 V8 from the latest Z06 Corvette. This would put the CTS-V right back into the same league as the 500-hp 2006 BMW M5 in terms of power and at least a little closer when it comes to handling and steering feel. Throw in an upgraded interior and the CTS-V would start looking like a bargain again.

Link w/photos: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Featu...rticleId=109332

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Question time: Why are they saying the CTS-V is a M5 competitor? That's the STS-Vs job. And they must be snorting something heavy if they expect to see the Z06's powertrain in there.

[Guest Josh]

Hmmm I wonder if we could legally run with our shots of the official remade CTS...

But I'm willing to bet $10 this is more powertrain testing for the Blue Devil Motor as Cadillac has been the champion tester for the powertrain.

[z28luvr01]

I honestly don't know why they'd bother...the CTS is supposedly up for a redo in '08. Maybe that's a test mule.

[Croc]

This is most likely a test mule for the 2008/2009 CTS.

[Cadillacfan]

I think we've already seen spy shots of an CTS with wide wheel arches if I'm not mistaken. This is the first time it's uncamoed.

[Drew Dowdell]

Question time: Why are they saying the CTS-V is a M5 competitor? That's the STS-Vs job. And they must be snorting something heavy if they expect to see the Z06's powertrain in there.

Me either.... they're like.... sooooo different.... I can't imagine why Cadillac would consider the M5 competition with the CTS-V much less would want to put a 500 hp LS engine in there either with all that torque way down low.... man, those pushrods would totally suck.

M5 CTS-V

HP: 500 400

Trque: 383 @ 6100 RPM 395 @ 4400 RPM

Weight: 4012 3850

Length: 191.10 191.50

W-Base: 113.70 113.40

Width: 72.70 70.60

[stickmax]

I have to agree that the CTS-V should be compared to the M3 than M5.

Edited February 17, 2006 by stickmax

[caddycruiser]

Yeah, this, or something a lot like it, was seen quite a while ago...and was ruled to be just a unique powertrain testing mule. There's no such thing as a "wide body CTS" and I really wouldn't think there'd ever be a reason for one, especially given that a new CTS is just right around the corner.

Edited February 17, 2006 by caddycruiser

[BigPontiac]

I have to agree that the CTS-V should be compared to the M3 than M5.

Except that the CTS is the size of a 5-Series, not a 3-Series. Hence the BLS to compete with the 3-Series in Europe... The CTS is huge compared to my 330i.

[Nick]

I have to agree that the CTS-V should be compared to the M3 than M5.

In my opinion, all caddy's model proportions are screwed up...I mean, the CTS-V is always compared against the M5, but in other comparisons it goes against the 3 series, but the size of it is in between that of a 3 and 5...then there is the sts-v which is more in between the size of a 5 and 7 rather than a 5...maybe more of a CLS competitor...I dunno...the models seem oddly sized...

[Drew Dowdell]

I have to agree that the CTS-V should be compared to the M3 than M5.

Why? The CTS matches the 5-series in nearly every dimension and until the new M5 came out they matched in performance. Once the CTS-v gets a new LS7, the power output would also be nearly identical....

so... what logical reason is the CTS-v <4-door midsize> a M3 <2-door compact> competior and not a M5 <4-door midsize> competior?

[91z4me]

In my opinion, all caddy's model proportions are screwed up...I mean, the CTS-V is always compared against the M5, but in other comparisons it goes against the 3 series, but the size of it is in between that of a 3 and 5...then there is the sts-v which is more in between the size of a 5 and 7 rather than a 5...maybe more of a CLS competitor...I dunno...the models seem oddly sized...

Its ok for a car to be different. Not every car needs to be the same size as the nearest comparable BMW.

[Drew Dowdell]

In my opinion, all caddy's model proportions are screwed up...I mean, the CTS-V is always compared against the M5, but in other comparisons it goes against the 3 series, but the size of it is in between that of a 3 and 5...then there is the sts-v which is more in between the size of a 5 and 7 rather than a 5...maybe more of a CLS competitor...I dunno...the models seem oddly sized...

Did you not read the specs that I posted? The 5-series is within less then 1/2 an inch difference from the CTS-v.

[Nick]

Its ok for a car to be different.  Not every car needs to be the same size as the nearest comparable BMW.

I'm just using the Bimmers as general size comparions though...I could do the same thing with the c,e, and s class as well...The problem is I see these cars being compared against different sizes...Same goes for the G35...The G35 is compared to the 3er all the time, but in terms of size it is much closer to a 5. I don't get it. Edited February 17, 2006 by Nick

[91z4me]

I'm just using the Bimmers as general size comparions though...I could do the same thing with the c,e, and s class as well...The problem is I see these cars being compared against different sizes...Same goes for the G35...The G35 is compared to the 3er all the time, but in terms of size it is much closer to a 5. I don't get it.

I belive it has to do with the main market for the cars. The Caddies' main market is the US where people prefer larger cars to smaller ones. The BMW and Mercedes cars are mainly marketed in the EU. I don't know what market the G35 has the largest volume in but it is perhaps more US intended than Japan, where I imagine the typical car is quite a bit smaller than the US.

My point is that perhaps the CTS is a better size than the 3 series or 5 series because it works better for more people. Putting cars in classes while making it easier to compare on paper doesn't mean jack to someone because the 3 series may be a hair to small while the 5 series may be a hair to big and the CTS is just right. Same could be said for the 5,7 and STS.

[Variance]

I'm just using the Bimmers as general size comparions though...I could do the same thing with the c,e, and s class as well...The problem is I see these cars being compared against different divisions...Same goes for the G35...The G35 is compared to the 3er all the time, but in terms of size it is much closer to a 5. I don't get it.

Vehicles are often compared on pricepoint and ranking within a brand rather than size. The CTS and G35 may be closer in size to the 5-Series than the 3-Series but the G and CTS are the entry-level sport sedans within their respective brands with prices closer to the 3-Series.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Its ok for a car to be different.  Not every car needs to be the same size as the nearest comparable BMW.

No they dont, but Cadillacs pricing is more messed up than the sizing. I hope its only temporary while Cadillac builds it's image. The CTS should be priced more like the 5 series, instead of the 3 series, that would leave room for a 3 series competitor starting in the $30ks. Cadillac shouldn't be the poor mans luxury brand. They should be the brand that people pay $10k more for just to have the Caddy badge on the front.

[Drew Dowdell]

No they dont, but Cadillacs pricing is more messed up than the sizing. I hope its only temporary while Cadillac builds it's image. The CTS should be priced more like the 5 series, instead of the 3 series, that would leave room for a 3 series competitor starting in the $30ks. Cadillac shouldn't be the poor mans luxury brand. They should be the brand that people pay $10k more for just to have the Caddy badge on the front.

Agreed. I fully expect the next CTS will get a bump in pricing which would allow the BTS in below it.

[Northstar]

So, if this is a test mule for the next-gen CTS, how close is the next-gen to being here? 12-15 months?

[pow]

Vehicles are often compared on pricepoint and ranking within a brand rather than size. The CTS and G35 may be closer in size to the 5-Series than the 3-Series but the G and CTS are the entry-level sport sedans within their respective brands with prices closer to the 3-Series.

What he said.

[Drew Dowdell]

What he said.

That doesn't make the CTS a bad 3-series competitor <which it clearly isn't bad against the 3-series, it's sells well and fairly close to sticker>, it makes it a good 5-series competitor.

[pow]

That doesn't make the CTS a bad 3-series competitor <which it clearly isn't bad against the 3-series, it's sells well and fairly close to sticker>, it makes it a good 5-series competitor.

We've had this discussion many, many times before. I still insist that the CTS is a 3-series competitor in the US, regardless of size. After all, I don't go about carrying a tape measure, but the CTS would make more sense in the Cadillac lineup if it lost ten inches. The CTS may technically be a similar size to the 5-series, but it has nowhere near the sophisication or quality expected of that segment. The CTS is perfectly competitive against the 3-series, however.

[Drew Dowdell]

We've had this discussion many, many times before. I still insist that the CTS is a 3-series competitor in the US, regardless of size. After all, I don't go about carrying a tape measure, but the CTS would make more sense in the Cadillac lineup if it lost ten inches. The CTS may technically be a similar size to the 5-series, but it has nowhere near the sophisication or quality expected of that segment. The CTS is perfectly competitive against the 3-series, however.

If the CTS started at 19k it would STILL be 5 series competitor.

As I've said many many times before, the Mini-cooper and Crown Victoria share price points, but that does NOT make them competitors.

The Lucerne overlaps the 3-series in price... competitors?

Edited February 17, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[jbartley]

Can we STAY ON TOPIC?

[pow]

If the CTS started at 19k it would STILL be 5 series competitor.

As I've said many many times before, the Mini-cooper and Crown Victoria share price points, but that does NOT make them competitors.

The Lucerne overlaps the 3-series in price... competitors?

                 

No &#036;h&#33;, Sherlock...

The 5-series, as well as the E-class, A6, GS, M, RL, and STS are in a class above the big and cheap CTS.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The current Cadillac CTS-V isn't the BMW M5 killer General Motors hoped it would be. With the introduction of the more powerful 2006 M5, the CTS-V is 100 hp off the mark. Add in its lame interior and its vague steering and the Caddy's $50,000 price doesn't look like such a bargain.

What an ass.... The CTS-V has been a WELL RECEIVED and WELL REVIEWED car. Sure, it has some shortcomings, but it's not a piece of junk.

We know a full-blown redesign of the CTS is already a done deal

If it's a done deal, then why isn't it here?

It's a styling trick BMW has used for decades now; it's about time Cadillac caught up.

Undue insult....

Cadillac has been selling cars based on STYLE for decades... It's about time BMW got a clue. (Bangle finally helped them)

a little closer when it comes to handling and steering feel.

lol...

Throw in an upgraded interior and the CTS-V would start looking like a bargain again.

Of course! Because it'll never be an aspirational luxury car or anything... (What was I thinking? The press allowing the CTS to be on the same par as an import? (In their minds and print) YEAH RIGHT!)

Question time: Why are they saying the CTS-V is a M5 competitor? That's the STS-Vs job. And they must be snorting something heavy if they expect to see the Z06's powertrain in there.

He's just another out-of-touch media type.

[ocnblu]

I think it's about time the word "bargain" is kept out of articles involving GM cars, as if GM vehicles in a given class have to be less expensive than the competition to even be considered. This is a perpetual insult.

[Robert Hall]

I think it's about time the word "bargain" is kept out of articles involving GM cars, as if GM vehicles in a given class have to be less expensive than the competition to even be considered.  This is a perpetual insult.

The problem is that GM is perpetuating that image with their Wal-Mart style 'Low Prices Everyday' advertising. They are doing it to themselves, so the media picks up on it.

[Sixty8panther]

Except that the CTS is the size of a 5-Series, not a 3-Series.  Hence the BLS to compete with the 3-Series in Europe...  The CTS is huge compared to my 330i.

The CTS is definately A 3-series in size (and in price) it's got exteriro dimmensions equivelant ot a new 3-series sedan.

I'm 99% sure (even thouhg I've never compared numbers) that thee STS &0 5-series are within 03% of eachother sizewise. I've driven both ad stood next to each.

[Drew Dowdell]

The CTS is definately A 3-series in size (and in price) it's got exteriro dimmensions equivelant ot a new 3-series sedan.

I'm 99% sure (even thouhg I've never compared numbers) that thee STS &0 5-series are within 03% of eachother sizewise. I've driven both ad stood next to each.

Simply wrong. Did you ignore my post earlier 68?

3-series 176.3 inches 15 inches shorter then the CTS!!! This is why the M3 and CTS-v should NOT be compaired directly.

CTSv 191.5 inches

5-seriess 191.1 inches 4/10ths of an inch smaller then the CTS!!!

STS 196.3 inches

7-series 198.4 inches

[Ultra Magnus]

What he said.

I concur. So what is the price of an M3 or M5? Yep thats why the CTS-V fits there. Why not give someone a bit bigger car for the money. Hey Im tall, I want all the performance but not have to spend $80k to fit in it.

[Drew Dowdell]

CTS-V + $20k at Lingenfelter = car that will woop an M5's ass for 10k less.

[turbo200]

CTS-V + $20k at Lingenfelter = car that will woop an M5's ass for 10k less.

This does not equate with quality and sophistication missing in a CTS compared to a 5-series as empowah was saying. 5-series makes CTS appear like it isn't even a luxury car, rightfully since CTS is on average $10-15k cheaper similarly equipped.

[Angry Dad]

The real point of this thread should be how wrong Edmunds is.... again!

[The O.C.]

I'm just using the Bimmers as general size comparions though...I could do the same thing with the c,e, and s class as well...The problem is I see these cars being compared against different sizes...Same goes for the G35...The G35 is compared to the 3er all the time, but in terms of size it is much closer to a 5. I don't get it.

Cadillac and Infiniti pitch the CTS and G35 against the 3-series in a price-comparison match-up.

Cadillac and Infiniti hope that they can score points with consumers by offering a vehicle in the overall 3-series price range but offer larger interior dimensions.

I don't know that a 3-series priced AND sized Cadillac would be too successful in this country....right now....

HOWEVER, that being the case.....go sit in the backseat of a (new) 3-series compared to a CTS....you will be shocked at which one is actually more comfortable (3-series.)

[The O.C.]

Simply wrong. Did you ignore my post earlier 68? 

3-series 176.3 inches 15 inches shorter then the CTS!!! This is why the M3 and CTS-v should NOT be compaired directly.

CTSv 191.5 inches

5-seriess 191.1 inches 4/10ths of an inch smaller then the CTS!!!

STS 196.3 inches

7-series 198.4 inches

I don't know if you've compared both IN PERSON.....but the packaging on both the 3-series AND 5-series is superior to the Cadillacs.....hence my previous post about the 3-series actually offering a more comfortable back seat than the (larger) CTS. Look at things like ingress/egress.....footwell room....underseat room for your feet....headroom....stuff like that. You'll see that BMW has somehow been very effective at maximising the interior space in those two cars.

CTS and STS both seem cramped for their size.

Case in point....my other half is 6ft....with long legs. He can sit in a 3-series driver's seat comfortably, with legs stretched out, and STILL have room to move the seat back further. In the CTS that we test drove, with the seat ALL the way back, his legs still had to be bent at the knees with his knees up almost to the underside of the dash. He was not comfortable in the car.

Not saying CTS won't fit MOST people, but I'm just trying to make a point that it's really not the size of the car that matters...it's the overall packaging.

(edit......that last sentance sounded sexual......LOL.....no pun intended.)

Edited February 18, 2006 by The O.C.

[Drew Dowdell]

We're talking about performance here. The original article is talking about a possible 505hp for the CTSv. It's should be clear that with that engine and the handling the CTSv currently posseses AND it's size the M5 is Cadillac's target.

With with 400hp the CTSv currently runs very well up against the M3 and previous M5.... enough to make driver skill the deciding factor.

With 505hp the CTSv would murder an M3.

This article is about performance, not legroom.

[turbo200]

This is true, in terms of performance, the CTSV can take on the likes of the M3 and M5. But then if you understood this, why were you so adamant in your size comparisons? The CTS may be just as large dimmensionally as the 5, but it is nowhere near the complete car it is. The CTSV still does not meet the 5-series for quality and overall sophistication and performance, but it's near 50k cheaper, so that's understood.

[Drew Dowdell]

But then if you understood this, why were you so adamant in your size comparisons?

Because given the same tuning as the CTSv, the M3 should always out handle the CTSv simply because of is smaller size and weight. Meaning if they always insist on stackin the V against the M3.... it will always lose.

[Mr Plow 2500HD]

This would be great for the CTS we could have 2 v-6's and 2 v-8's. That means the CTS could offer a non V series v8 car with 400hp and the V series with the 500hp ls7. CTS gets cross shopped with the 3 and 5 because it doesnt suffer from the BMW i-drive mess its a great price for what you get and the ls motor can be moded cheaply. Cant wait for the next version.

[Imaj]

One thing on my mind, if the next CTS will grow in size what will happen to the STS?

[corvettekidc6]

If it does get the LS7, then we can for sure expect the Blue Devil Corvette to start breathing soon. The Corvette is suposed to be the most powerful car GM makes, so if the Caddy gets above the 500 hp benchmark then the Corvette will be getting another step ahead of the Z06. Hope to see it soon.

[97regalGS]

NG CTSv wont get the LS7.

well, it's not likely to stay with the LS2, so what's it going to be?

[skepticman]

well, it's not likely to stay with the LS2, so what's it going to be?

Some possibilities include: continuing with the LS2, the supercharged Northstar from the STS-V and XLR-V, the LS3 that is rumored to replace the LS2, the LS8, or the Ultra V-8 that is rumored to replace the Northstar.

Of course, there is the possibility that the entire V series could be put on hiatus or dropped if GM's financial condition deteriorates too much.

[Guest Josh]

Chris stick to taking pictures and not tryingsay what engine goes with what vehicle.

The next CTSv will get the LS7, and will stay the most powerful V Series vehicle, why do you think we are getting the Blue Devil Corvette? Because the Corvette will always be the most powerful nameplate within GM.

[Trimnell1]

Josh: We all know that the Z06 comes with a manual tranny only, so do you know if the new CTS-V with the LS7 will be available with an automatic or will it still be manual only? The upcoming 6L90-E transmission will be able to handle the LS7's power, so hopefully Cadillac will offer both that and the manual to give buyers a choice and to broaden its appeal.

[skepticman]

Chris stick to taking pictures and not tryingsay what engine goes with what vehicle.

The next CTSv will get the LS7, and will stay the most powerful V Series vehicle, why do you think we are getting the Blue Devil Corvette? Because the Corvette will always be the most powerful nameplate within GM.

You're aware that the LS7 is a low volume engine that is built by hand? To completely replace the LS2 with the LS7 would require a big increase in volume and a big price increase for the V. Unless they make the LS7 an optional, special order engine, or if they mass produce it instead of hand building it, which would likely reduce the engine quality.

LS7: The Largest, Most Powerful Small-Block Ever Built

"Team members are engine-build specialists selected from GM's experimental engine lab, and they complete about 30 LS7 engines per day."

LS7 Unplugged

"Each engine is hand-assembled by a single technician who builds it from start to finish."

"The engines are shipped to Johnson Matthey Testing in Taylor, Michigan, where they're subjected to a 20-minute "hot" test--10 minutes of no-load "break in" and 10 minutes of loaded operation. After this, the engines come back to the PBC and are ready to ship to the Corvette assembly facility in Bowling Green, Kentucky."

[Trimnell1]

Hmmm, great point skepticman, I don't know why I forgot the fact that the LS7 is a handmade and very expensive engine to produce. I don't think that Cadillac wants to up the price of the CTS-V by several thousand dollars, so if not the LS7 then I'm thinking either a Northstar variant or the UV8. They could continue with a small-block V-8, but this time around maybe they want to install a DOHC engine in it.

[97regalGS]

Hmmm, great point skepticman, I don't know why I forgot the fact that the LS7 is a handmade and very expensive engine to produce.  I don't think that Cadillac wants to up the price of the CTS-V by several thousand dollars, so if not the LS7 then I'm thinking either a Northstar variant or the UV8.  They could continue with a small-block V-8, but this time around maybe they want to install a DOHC engine in it.

i don't think the UV8 will be ready unless the NG CTS-V waits a year or so after the base CTS.

also, isn't current 469hp NS hand assembled? besides, having STS-V and CTS-V with same engine doesn't 'feel' right to me.

lower cost small block of some form makes more sense to me.

I suspect that LS7 was originally planned, but as GM continues to bleed $$$$ I suspect that strategy is up for re-evaluation.

[jrockb4]

Wasn't the last Z06 engine hand built? If we equate the price increase between the base C6 and the Z06 at $25k, then why can't the CTS-V have that engine for around $55k? I can not belive that the number of CTS-V's sold is that great, I would suspect that it would be less than 5 a day. Is the next CTS going to be bigger, smaller or the same size? This is important as if I remember correctly, the Northstar is too big for the CTS.