Lexus struggles in Japan against

[andy82471]

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/autos/conten...0215_597701.htm

Wow how ironic. The Americans love Lexus more than the Japanese.

[Robert Hall]

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/autos/conten...0215_597701.htm

Wow how ironic. The Americans love Lexus more than the Japanese.

Well, in Japan, Lexus is a domestic...less cachet than an imported luxury car (BMW, M-B, Cadillac, etc). And that these cars were sold as Toyotas recently (the Lexus name was just launched in Japan last year) hurts them...

I don't think Infiniti is in Japan yet, is it (still NA only, I think).

[ToniCipriani]

My theory again: the grass is greener on the neighbours lawn.

I know very well my friends around me like imports just because it isn't a domestic brand.

Infiniti isn't specific to NA, BTW. I've seen them elsewhere.

Edited February 16, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[oneIozz]

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/autos/conten...0215_597701.htm

Wow how ironic. The Americans love Lexus more than the Japanese.

It's not that surprising really... Lexus models are just high end Toyotas in Japan (Soarer, Aristo, Harrier, Altezza are SC430, GS430, RX330 & IS300 respectively)

That might have changed with the redesign, but BMW & Mercedes are huge there. Lexus would have some work to do to make serious inroads in the lux market.

I don't blame them either... I would sooner buy an M5 than I would a V-series Caddy, for example.

[regfootball]

many of the 'rich' and successful' people in this country are real poseurs and have no real world brain, they are simply followers and simply gravitate to whatever their well to do buddies tell them to get.

lots of Americans are not capable of independent thinking, and Lexus more than any other brand cultivates a legion of followers based upon marketing and little else.

Maybe we are not giving the Japanese enough credit here. Maybe the bland Japanese can even recognize even when something is TOO bland. The ultimate irony.

I parked next to a new Lexus GS the other day that had a dark colored interior. People rip the STS for a cheap interior...the interior of that Lexus looked horrifically cheap to me actually. Very crappy looking plastic.

[Sixty8panther]

Perhaps the Japanese are not fooled by an emblem.... they know it's just a jazzed up Toyo-Duh. THe Lexus badges are probably soem kind of runnig joke in Japan, like:

[insert stereotypycal Japanese anime accdent here]

"Suzukimo, How do you get American Businessman to pay 40 million yen more for a toyota than his neighbor?"

"I do not know this riddle Mr. Daihatsu"

"You put Lexus emblem on trunk" *ha-hahahahaha-HA HA, ha ha ...ha! ...........HA!*

[Flybrian]

Such would be true with the 1999 Escalade, but such a claim now isn't really accurate.

[Whistler]

Guess theres also a running joke in Detroit...

"Hey Mr. Lutz, how do you get an American businessman to spend 20-30k more on a GMC truck?"

"Dunno, how"

"Slap on a Caddy badge ahahahahahahahahahahaha!"

[Whistler]

Such would be true with the 1999 Escalade, but such a claim now isn't really accurate.

Likewise, to claim it about any Lexus/Toyota isn't accurate either. The only ones that have anything in common are the ancient Landcruiser/LX470. Even the Camry and ES relationship is almost unrecognizable now if you sit in/drive both cars.

[Whistler]

BTW is there any way to edit your posts on this forum? I tried editing my last one and accidently deleted it...

[Flybrian]

BTW is there any way to edit your posts on this forum? I tried editing my last one and accidently deleted it...

Yup. Just go ahead and use the button. on the toolbar at the bottom of your post.

[Whistler]

Odd... I only have Delete, Quote, and Reply, even on my own posts...

[ToniCipriani]

Perhaps the Japanese are not fooled by an emblem.... they know it's just a jazzed up Toyo-Duh. THe Lexus badges are probably soem kind of runnig  joke in Japan, like:

[insert stereotypycal Japanese anime accdent here]

"Suzukimo, How do you get American Businessman to pay 40 million yen more for a toyota than his neighbor?"

"I do not know this riddle Mr. Daihatsu"

"You put Lexus emblem on trunk" *ha-hahahahaha-HA HA, ha ha ...ha! ...........HA!*

Neither are people in Hong Kong, or more or less most Asian countries as I see it. People drive parallel imported Toyota Harriers instead of the officially imported Lexus RXes. Same car, much cheaper. In fact the Harrier has a cooler badge than the RX, I think.

As a matter of fact those are the only Lexuses I see around back home. People are not fond of the sedans. I've only seen one old beater LS driven by a teacher at the school I used to work. MB and BMW are much bigger.

Edited February 20, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[Matt276]

Why Toyoguy never post articles like this one?

[CARBIZ]

Part of the problem around here is that ALL brands are imported. So-called "domestic" brands are really foreign as well - even if we do consider Americans close cousins! NOw that both Toyota and Honda assemble some of their vehicles here in Ontario, many people who don't know much about the culture and history of autos in North America don't know/don't care that the Big Three have a history and tradition in Canada - hence, "domestic", whereas, the Asians are recent interlopers.

Anyway, that would help to explain why GM only has 16% market share in the GTA. And, yes, I agree that the Japanese are probably succumbing to the same type of snobbery.

[titan]

I don't think Infiniti is in Japan yet, is it (still NA only, I think).

Infiniti's in Korea, Thailand... they'll be in Japan, and then Europe, very shortly.

[Domesticated]

Good, maybe even Japan will turn on their own junk and start supporting GM. Make their residents regret Pearl Harbor with a product backlash. HAHAHA

America can wipe the floor with the Japanese industry, just don't tell Consumer Reports They were just morons for neglecting the Cavalier when we marketed it over there a while back. I think if we actually gave it another try over there, they would wake up and realize our superiority over their chintzy garbage.

Good to see their own products getting rejected like so many blind import loyalists have done here.

[Flybrian]

To those motivated to respond to portions of that, I would choose not to for clear reasons.

[Domesticated]

To those motivated to respond to portions of that, I would choose not to for clear reasons.

I apologize if I hinted at anything offensive, I was merely joking about the whole PH thing. I wasn't alive to experience it but what I really meant was that payback for their wrongful infiltration into our country over the years is due. It's nice to see them rejecting "The home Teams" products like so many do here in the US. I just typed it so quickly, I didn't think about it being offensive. I'll remember that next time.

[Shantanu]

There's no mystique in Japan for Lexus. The people there know that they are just Toyotas and they are not fooled, like Americans are.

[Domesticated]

There's no mystique in Japan for Lexus.  The people there know that they are just Toyotas and they are not fooled, like Americans are.

That is SO true. Haha even their own country realizes that Lexass is nothing more than a glorified Toyota Tercel and yet we foolish Americans buy them up like Crispy Creme donuts. Like they say, A sucker is born every minute. That sucker just happened to skip over a superior Caddy or Buick and went drooling all over their lexass dealership and paid too much $.

Makes me sick

[Sixty8panther]

Maybe when Buik gets some serious sedans again with RWD....

[Intrepidation]

That is SO true.  Haha even their own country realizes that Lexass is nothing more than a glorified Toyota Tercel and yet we foolish Americans buy them up like Crispy Creme donuts. Like they say, A sucker is born every minute. That sucker just happened to skip over a superior Caddy or Buick and went drooling all over their lexass dealership and paid too much $.

Makes me sick

Caddy? yes way superior (except the CTS' interior) Buick? HAHAHA If there's one thing Lexus can do is build a better buick...with Japanese sheetmetal. Come to think of it Lexus stands for everything Buick should but doesn't. Reiable, comfortable, not the most exciting, cruiser, RWD...yeah

[Flybrian]

Caddy? yes way superior (except the CTS' interior) Buick? HAHAHA If there's one thing Lexus can do is build a better buick...with Japanese sheetmetal. Come to think of it Lexus stands for everything Buick should but doesn't. Reiable, comfortable, not the most exciting, cruiser, RWD...yeah

The only affordable boulevardier with a Lexus badge is front-wheel drive.

[fuel_sipping]

Like they say, A sucker is born every minute. That sucker just happened to skip over a superior Caddy or Buick and went drooling all over their lexass dealership and paid too much $.

Makes me sick

Hate to bring back a month old thread but it may have some kick left in it.

I'd rather buy a Lexus over a Buick anyday. Regardless of the price, its just a much nicer car. I dont care what you will say, a IS350 is more fun to drive then the comperable Buick. Ok so ive never driven the Buick but I will rest assured its nice as nice. Why the Japs dont buy them? I dont know, but the IS is also better then any Toyota badged car I know of.

That is SO true. Haha even their own country realizes that Lexass is nothing more than a glorified Toyota Tercel and yet we foolish Americans buy them up like Crispy Creme donuts.

Hah, I guess that is why the 'glorified' cavy sold like hotcakes in Japan...

[Imaj]

Lexus struggling in Japan and Europe, lol. It's only a success in the USA and the Gulf countries. How lame, people lusting over glorified Toyotas! The Japanese know better!

[Snate]

People in this country have a fascination for anything imported. Anything domestic is shunned alot of the times.

[enzl]

Before we celebrate Toyota's imminent demise over this news :AH-HA_wink: , keep in mind, these products were generally badged as Toyotas before, thus we don't know if they are selling at a higher rate than before....

Since most of the Lexus models are 6 cylinders or more and much larger than the average Japanese car, how many would we expect them to sell? Gas is $6.00/gallon in Japan!

(LEXUS SALES UP 85% in Europe this year...so, I guess the Europeans are OK with the lack of Lexus 'history' or soul)

Edited April 28, 2006 by enzl

[Mr.Krinkle]

(LEXUS SALES UP 85% in Europe this year...so, I guess the Europeans are OK with the lack of Lexus 'history' or soul)

now i know you know that if they sold even 1 lexus and the next year they sold 2 sales then would have increased by a whole 100%.

besides, if you can afford a lexus...i dont think gas is too much of a concern.

bmw and benz' do pretty good forthemselves with their gas guzzling v8s

[enzl]

now i know you know that if they sold even 1 lexus and the next year they sold 2  sales then would have increased by a whole 100%.

besides, if you can afford a lexus...i dont think gas is too much of a concern.

bmw and benz'  do pretty good forthemselves with their gas guzzling v8s

Most execs (as they are termed in europe) are sold as diesels...the gas ones are a ton of 4 cylinders in C, E, & 3's, so that doesn't apply.

Your math knowlege is great. Auto stuff, not so much.

Also,alot of the euro's are also bought as company cars, not individuals....Many companies must 'approve' makes & models to be purchased, so new ones are at an additional disadvantage.

Edited April 29, 2006 by enzl

[Drew Dowdell]

Hate to bring back a month old thread but it may have some kick left in it.

I'd rather buy a Lexus over a Buick anyday. Regardless of the price, its just a much nicer car. I dont care what you will say, a IS350 is more fun to drive then the comperable Buick. Ok so ive never driven the Buick but I will rest assured its nice as nice. Why the Japs dont buy them? I dont know, but the IS is also better then any Toyota badged car I know of.

Hah, I guess that is why the 'glorified' cavy sold like hotcakes in Japan...

Of course you'd rather buy an IS over a Buick if you're looking for a fun to drive car... your compairing apples to oranges.

Would you rather buy an ES over a Lucerne though.... that would be a much harder decision to make.

[Mr.Krinkle]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...428/1148/AUTO01

like a wounded duck...16.000 cars last year, check my math by reading the link.

then lets see.

do you always think you are right. makes it kindve boring.

ill dumb it down a shade but double check that math again for me. 85% is a big increase when you dont sell that many to begin with

understand now wise guy.

[Mr.Krinkle]

its actually a good story. some predict in 5 years theyll still only sell a quarter of what bwm 3 series or 1/4 of what audi a4's sell.

so why dont they build a diesel. maybe the lexus hybrids are more interesting over there.

[enzl]

its actually a good story.  some predict in 5 years theyll still only sell a quarter of what bwm 3 series or 1/4 of what audi a4's sell.

so why dont they build a diesel.  maybe the lexus hybrids are more interesting over there.

First, it's still a dramatic number for a premium product that has no history and, up until a few months ago, no diesel (IS diesel is available now).

Ask GM how hard it is to startup a premium make in Europe....Caddy would have a ways to go to hit 16K a year.....they're talking 5k/year, so my math tells me Lexus has tripled GM's target already...it would be a more interesting counterpoint if you noted the number of dealers Lexus has...or the number of products their peddling (much small lineup than the states.

BMW 3 is one of the best selling cars in Europe, not just in the premium segment. 25% of what they are selling would be quite an accomplishment in 5 yrs...c'mon, make it hard for me to feel superior, at least... :AH-HA_wink:

[Mr.Krinkle]

its not possible to feel superior to you so i wont waste my time.

i will say you defend toyota like its your mother-thats a metaphor.

no one is talking about caddy...this is toyota and how their sales in euroupe suck.

deal with it.

every time someone says something bad about mother toyota i hear wah wah wah from you...wait hold on.

have some pride and take it like a man, if you can.

if someone else isnt competitive you invariably say they need a better car.

lexus needs better cars to compete in a market they have no business being in.

spin it all you want the fact is, and its a fact jack...their european sales figures suck

your argument is so transparent it would be a waste of a gorgeous day to trifle with you any longer. adios.

[Croc]

its not possible to feel superior to you so i wont waste my time.

Ummmmmmm...I disagree.

[enzl]

its not possible to feel superior to you so i wont waste my time.

i will say you defend toyota like its your mother-thats a metaphor.

no one is talking about caddy...this is toyota and how their sales in euroupe suck.

deal with it.

every time someone says something bad about mother toyota i hear wah wah wah from you...wait hold on.   

have some pride and take it like a man, if you can.

if someone else isnt competitive you invariably say they need a better car.

lexus needs better cars to compete in a market they have no business being in.

spin it all you want the fact is, and its a fact jack...their european sales figures suck

your argument is so transparent it would be a waste of a gorgeous day to trifle with you any longer.  adios.

I have no particular love for Toyota...just think one should use facts and not BS to prove a point...

When the casual fan reads this site, I would think that getting the best, most accurate facts would be important.

And I used Caddy as an example of how hard it is to start-up a premium brand in the European market, not as a criticism of Cadillac or GM per se. The situations are factually comparable and germane to discrediting your (false) assertions.

Note that you haven't proven me wrong, you;ve just tried to shift the argument when someone challenged your 'facts'...

If I'm wrong, as I can be, I can admit it. You may want to ask around before accusing me of being uninformed.

[evok]

I have no particular love for Toyota...just think one should use facts and not BS to prove a point...

When the casual fan reads this site, I would think that getting the best, most accurate facts would be important.

And I used Caddy as an example of how hard it is to start-up a premium brand in the European market, not as a criticism of Cadillac or GM per se. The situations are factually comparable and germane to discrediting your (false) assertions.

Note that you haven't proven me wrong, you;ve just tried to shift the argument when someone challenged your 'facts'...

If I'm wrong, as I can be, I can admit it. You may want to ask around before accusing me of being uninformed.

Man - I really do welcome you here. It is nice to have another fact driven perspective on the industry to counter the rabble.

As you already know I agree with you and disagree with Mr. Krinkle. His opinion lacks not only any insight but thought.

Edited April 30, 2006 by evok

[Mr.Krinkle]

ha hah youve got to be kidding me.

evok has spoken, let us all go in peace.

my mistake fellas, anytime you two girls feel like getting together to chat just let me and the other "peons" know so we can let you gab unfettered.

you scumbag.

by the way pal i do have me a college edumucation and would never want to banter with someone like you. get a life. ive got better information from ups deliveryman than someone like you and your supposed knowledge.

i didnt think they still made people like you. what garbage.

and if you cant see why lexus sales in europe are nonexistent without someone telling you the reasons why they are non existent then there is no hope for you.

get lost and stop wasting my time with this trash.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Man - I really do welcome you here.  It is nice to have another fact driven perspective on the industry to counter the rabble.

As you already know I agree with you and disagree with Mr. Krinkle.  His opinion lacks not only any insight but thought.

quoted for posterity.

how many times did you change your tune while you were scolding "josh" you maggot. three or 4?

[enzl]

quoted for posterity.

how many times did you change your tune while you were scolding "josh" you maggot.  three or 4?

Just in case there are people who care about facts (and are prepared to listen to someone other than the voices in their head):

Lexus sold 10.5K in Europe last quarter...

for comparison, over the same period:

BMW sold 175K

MB sold 179K

Audi sold 161K

Jag sold 12K

Saab sold 24K

MG Rover 4K

Chrysler 24K

GM U.S. 1.5K

(AutoNews 4.24.06)

[Mr.Krinkle]

Just in case there are people who care about facts (and are prepared to listen to someone other than the voices in their head):

Saab sold 24K

GM U.S. 1.5K

(AutoNews 4.24.06)

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...428/1148/AUTO01

isnt saab part of gm anyway?

[enzl]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...428/1148/AUTO01

isnt saab part of gm anyway?

I'll pick up the most popular mantra here "Media Bias"....in all seriousness, the Detroit News (a homer paper for the US brands), writes an opinion piece....his opinion.

I leave the conclusions to you, but to me, the ability to sell half of what Saab is selling, and nearly the same as Jag, isn't horrible. Is it fantastic?, no. Is it a failure?, way to early to say. They have had no small vehicles, no diesels and a small dealer network...give 'em a few years. People laughed when the LS400 was introduced in the US....They're not laughing anymore.

Oh, and the GM US are broken out separately from Saab, and that lineup includes the Vette and the LHD Caddy's that GM is currently peddling through a 3rd party owned dealer network. (Oh, and GM has been 'trying' this and other half ass approaches since the C5 vette was out, so they've technically had a huge head start on my lover, Toyota.) :AH-HA_wink:

[Mr.Krinkle]

its all opinion...based on fact.

are your response spoken from the moutnaintop?

no its opinion based on fact and in your case a need to defend lexus.

how come gm doesnt do well in minivans? because they suck...yourre more than forthcoming about gms ability or in this case inability to compete but youll come up with every excuse in the book while defending toyota and lexus.

do i give a $h!. no.

do you need to proclaim how bright you are. yep. does anyone else give a sh*t.

i doubt it.

the link i supplied is opinion. is it packed with facts...you betcha.

yourre argument here is unfounded and weak. its not about how will toyota succeed in europe. it is about how come they are failing right now.

will they do better at some point. probably. thats not what this is about though.'

[evok]

quoted for posterity.

how many times did you change your tune while you were scolding "josh" you maggot.  three or 4?

Oh Mr. Krinkle, you are still a newbie around here. I would just watch what you say.

As for Josh and myself, we go way back and we can banter back and forth at will.

Something we do not have. So be careful.

[Mr.Krinkle]

are you threatening me from behind your computer desk?

what is the meaning of that?

yeah im kinda new here and it didnt take me all that long to figure out how full of yourself you are. like i said i dont care to banter with someone who needs sycophantic whining and bellyaching to brighten up his day.

and then berates, belittles, and demeans others when they dont agree you pompous dink.

is that what you think banter is?

you despised gm's yes man but what position do you try to keep people in. its your way or the highway and i dont dig that.

i have no problem telling you where to go and how to get there.

i hope a moderator gets a chance to read your threats and has a discussion with you and bring you back down to earth. taking sides and not adding anything to this thread but lies, propaganda, and threats.

i may have some sass occasionaly but its usually in responce to personal attack and is tantamount to self defense. but i aint never threatened nobody, ever.

and what i think you meant to say was that

"would just watch what i say, if i were you i . what you said is stating the obvious.

[enzl]

are you threatening me from behind your computer desk?

what is the meaning of that?

yeah im kinda new here and it didnt take me all that long to figure out how full of yourself you are.  like i said i dont care to banter with someone who needs sycophantic whining and bellyaching to brighten up his day.

and then berates, belittles, and demeans others when they dont agree you pompous dink.

is that what you think banter is?

you despised gm's yes man but what position do you try to keep people in.  its your way or the highway and i dont dig that.

i have no problem telling you where to go and how to get there.

i hope a moderator gets a chance to read your threats and has a discussion with you and bring you back down to earth.  taking sides and not adding anything to this thread but lies, propaganda, and threats.

i may have some sass occasionaly but its usually in responce to personal attack and is tantamount to self defense.  but i aint never threatened nobody, ever.

and what i think you meant to say was that

"would just watch what i say, if i were you i .  what you said is stating the obvious.

He's merely trying to avoid making you look silly and misinformed. It's not a threat and you know it.

No-one here has claimed to be smarter than you (although its generally stupid people, in my experience, who are concerned with such things anyway.)

We are just better informed and view our participation here as an opportunity to discuss matters auto-related.

I can't speak for evok, but I spend 50 hours/week minimum at a car-related activity and I have access to lots of info others here do not. They may not like what I have to say either, but they're certainly more polite about it...

[Flybrian]

Okay, guys. Although the phrase "pompus dink" is the funniest insult I've read today, its time to tone it down across the board. If you want to have it out with someone, do it someplace else.

Also, my word is the last word in this 'argument', so let's get back on topic, shall we?

[Robert Hall]

Okay, guys. Although the phrase "pompus dink" is the funniest insult I've read today, its time to tone it down across the board. If you want to have it out with someone, do it someplace else.

Also, my word is the last word in this 'argument', so let's get back on topic, shall we?

I like 'pompous dink'... haven't heard that one, though I've heard my demographic referred to as 'yuppie DINKs' (dual income, no kids).

[evok]

I can't speak for evok, but I spend 50 hours/week minimum at a car-related activity and I have access to lots of info others here do not. They may not like what I have to say either, but they're certainly more polite about it...

Well this pompous dink spends about that much time in the business as well.