.....

[Chris_Doane]

.......

Edited October 14, 2006 by CD/BP

[AAS]

I like everything the article says (companion models, Impala etc.), but hate the timeline! 2010 ?!? Say it 'aint so!

[sciguy_0504]

Great, another retro car, this time being the Impala. Will this RWD architecture be passed around to every division, too?

My biggest hope is that the architecture is flexible. Small, mid and large sized cars need to be able to come off of it, at least mid and large. No Saturn, Saab or GMC, 2 Buicks max, 2-3 Chevys max, all Pontiac.

[Variance]

I'm glad my dream car is already here...now, if I could only afford it.

[Flybrian]

Whatever happened to 18-months from concept to production?

This is only really possible if the car has been well under development by the concept's debut.

[NOS2006]

ha! 2010. My dad reported that to me earlier this week and I laughed.

[hyperv6]

I would not put too much stock into to Edmunds time line yet. I have heard bettter news than this in the past 7 days from a trusted scource. I could not be told much yet but it was made clear delays were not a problem at least yet.

It is true there is some minor reworking of the car and it is positive evidence they have been listening to the people in there likes and dislikes from what they are working on. So they are reading and listening. They know we want this car as soon as possible so that is one item you can save your breath on.

I think we need to learn something here, before we find out the truth most times a lot of misinformation or misdirection appears in the press.

Untill a Known someone speaks for GM don't get too excited or upset yet. After all of the wrong or misleading info of the last year most of us should know better by now.

As for the Impala and the rest I have not heard anything. That looks promising if it could be trusted.

The bottom line is no one wants this car than GM right now so they will get it here as soon as they are able.

Keep in mind you saw the new 07 Tahoe in late 05 and able to buy it in early 06. MY means little right now at GM.

So let just wait and see what GM shows or info it lets out in the near future before we jump to any conclutions.

[-Camaro-]

If this is true, they might aswell not build it. It will be a flop. Too late and should be around the redesign for the mustang. No one will want a 5 year old car, it'll be boring by then. If a Camaro comes out in 2010, they might aswell scrap the design and work on something new. They've really screwed up releasing a concept in 2006 and releasing it near 2011. They should have waited to unveil it or something... But that's if it's true, I don't really believe this.

[KillFort]

I'm looking at buying one in 2 years.

My dad said he wants one next year when his lease is up on his Impala.

GM should have had this far enough in the pipeline to do what DCX is doing with the Challenger.

Too slow, regardless of whether the Edmunds date is right or the original slated 2009 date. I'm hoping all these dates are wrong and it'll be here sooner than expected.

There is another poster on caranddriver named Yo who constantly adds the reply to any domestic related thread "Go Team! Wait till next year! Wait till next year!" as a taunt. I used to think he was annoying but it makes sense often when it comes to GM.

I guess I'll reserve any judgement until further notice.

[Variance]

If this is true, they might aswell not build it. It will be a flop. Too late and should be around the redesign for the mustang. No one will want a 5 year old car, it'll be boring by then. If a Camaro comes out in 2010, they might aswell scrap the design and work on something new. They've really screwed up releasing a concept in 2006 and releasing it near 2011. They should have waited to unveil it or something... But that's if it's true, I don't really believe this.

Too slow, regardless of whether the Edmunds date is right or the original slated 2009 date.  I'm hoping all these dates are wrong and it'll be here sooner than expected.

Just so you guys know: 2010MY = as early as 2009 calendar year.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

There is another poster on caranddriver named Yo who constantly adds the reply to any domestic related thread "Go Team!  Wait till next year!  Wait till next year!" as a taunt.  I used to think he was annoying but it makes sense often when it comes to GM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd stay away from Car & Driver forums. There are plenty of dickheads there.

As for the article... Well, I'll just believe what I want to believe (I think it's coming in 2008, to be honest), stick my hands in my pockets and walk away. To be honest, I'm turning a deaf ear to a good part of the auto press. This article is just more of an artificial haze the press places around GM; I mean, how many "It's coming at a date you don't wanna hear!" stories have they slapped down on the table? They're really hurting the mission to obtain the truth than they are delivering it.

Edited February 16, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[evok]

Untill a Known someone speaks for GM don't get too excited or upset yet. After all of the wrong or misleading info of the last year most of us should know better by now.

I am not validating Edmunds claims, but the news I am hearing out of the Tubes indicate it might be very accurate.

[Munson05]

i am going to buy it when ever it comes out i think it will be here sooner

[evok]

i am going to buy it when ever it comes out i think it will be here sooner

I would not count on it, there are bigger priorities at the Tubes and it may not be rwd/Camaro.

[evok]

You mean like getting the rest of the GMT900s out along with the endless parade of cross-overs?

And loosing app 9.0 billion last year, DPH, etc.

[ehaase]

I am not surprised at all, considering GM's financial situation and the new programs (GMT900, Lambda, Sigma II, Epsilon II, Theta/Epsilon) it is already planning and needs to fund for the rest of this decade. And any more problems in the Middle East and $100/barrel oil could doom RWD, V8 cars completely.

[Northstar]

I think it's still possible for it to be here before 2009 CY as a 2009 MY vehicle. Like 4Q 2008. I think the money will be flowing again once the GMT900s get out, and everything will get pushed forward a small amount, including the Camaro and RWD.

[mystik]

Geez...4Q 2008?? Thats 3 freaking years from now. Somewhere Ford designers and engineers are giving out a collective sigh of relief...

[99camaroSS]

this all just a bunch of crapola, just like the they tried to tell us the chevy baretta was the new camaro in the late 80's or all that crap they were putting out about the corvette in the mid 90's. GM knows better than to push this car back to 2010. i hate friggin rumors!!!!!!!!!!! just give us the facts already you secretive sons of

[evok]

this all just a bunch of crapola, just like the they tried to tell us the chevy baretta was the new camaro in the late 80's or all that crap they were putting out about the corvette in the mid 90's. GM knows better than to push this car back to 2010. i hate friggin rumors!!!!!!!!!!! just give us the facts already you secretive sons of 

Truth hurts.

[mystik]

Well regardless of what's been said, GM should know better than to wait that long. I don't want this car rushed any more than anyone else does, but 3 years is an awful long time for people to wait for a car they want to go out and buy now. Example. I need a car soon, within the next year or two. So I was set on an Avalanche. Then I saw the Camaro, and started rethinking. So then it was Camaro or Avalanche? But if this car is coming out until 2009, I simply cant wait that long. Which is the case for a lot of people. They want this car now. GM needs this car now. Especially at the peak of the fuel price wars and what not, having a 400 HP car that can advertise 30 MPG is insane. I just dont think the sheer number of people who want this car NOW can get any bigger...it can only get smaller. I'd still want it when it came out, but then I'd already have a car that I'd still be paying off. Which is I'm sure the case for a lot of people...but then again the way GM has been doing things lately, maybe it will come out earlier. 2008 MY is a pipe dream I guess...

[evok]

Well regardless of what's been said, GM should know better than to wait that long. I don't want this car rushed any more than anyone else does, but 3 years is an awful long time for people to wait for a car they want to go out and buy now.

I think people need to seriously get over themselves.

The vehicle shown at Detroit was a CONCEPT car and only a CONCEPT car. GM never stated that this concept car was indicative of a production vehicle in the pipeline. GM never said that the vehicle was destined for production. GM never said when the vehicle would hit showrooms. Welburn's statements only indicated that GM might be able to expedite the program if the vehicle was give approval. GM never mentioned that the vehicle would be in showrooms in 18, 24, or 36 months.

People got caught up in the propaganda and false timing by those that do not understand how long the vehicle gestation period is.

Given that this is only a CONCEPT, a 36 month or so lead time is normal.

GM's only mistake in thinking that it would create some excitement when they needed it was showing the CONCEPT in the first place, creating unrealizable expectations.

If anybody would have taken what I have been saying to heart, they would understand. So with that I have no sympathy.

Edited February 16, 2006 by evok

[Robert Hall]

Geez...4Q 2008?? Thats 3 freaking years from now. Somewhere Ford designers and engineers are giving out a collective sigh of relief...

Yeah, the Mustang will probably be getting a mid-cycle restyle for '09 or '10 I bet...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well regardless of what's been said, GM should know better than to wait that long. I don't want this car rushed any more than anyone else does, but 3 years is an awful long time for people to wait for a car they want to go out and buy now. Example. I need a car soon, within the next year or two. So I was set on an Avalanche. Then I saw the Camaro, and started rethinking. So then it was Camaro or Avalanche? But if this car is coming out until 2009, I simply cant wait that long. Which is the case for a lot of people. They want this car now. GM needs this car now. Especially at the peak of the fuel price wars and what not, having a 400 HP car that can advertise 30 MPG is insane. I just dont think the sheer number of people who want this car NOW can get any bigger...it can only get smaller. I'd still want it when it came out, but then I'd already have a car that I'd still be paying off. Which is I'm sure the case for a lot of people...but then again the way GM has been doing things lately, maybe it will come out earlier. 2008 MY is a pipe dream I guess...

Well GM still wouldn't be losing a sale by not building it sooner, because your other alternative is a GM vehicle anyway.

[The O.C.]

I think it's still possible for it to be here before 2009 CY as a 2009 MY vehicle. Like 4Q 2008. I think the money will be flowing again once the GMT900s get out, and everything will get pushed forward a small amount, including the Camaro and RWD.

No offense Northstar....but didn't you see Evok's posts?

BELIEVE ME.....he knows what he's talking about. He has an inside track that not even many actual EMPLOYEES of the Big3 have....

If he feels it will be 2010, then I'm putting my betting money on Evok.

[-Camaro-]

I think people need to seriously get over themselves.

The vehicle shown at Detroit was a CONCEPT car and only a CONCEPT car.  GM never stated that this concept car was indicative of a production vehicle in the pipeline.  GM never said that the vehicle was destined for production.  GM never said when the vehicle would hit showrooms.  Welburn's statements only indicated that GM might be able to expedite the program if the vehicle was give approval.  GM never mentioned that the vehicle would be in showrooms in 18, 24, or 36 months.

People got caught up in the propaganda and false timing by those that do not understand how long the vehicle gestation period is.

Given that this is only a CONCEPT, a 36 month or so lead time is normal.

GM's only mistake in thinking that it would create some excitement when they needed it was showing the CONCEPT in the first place, creating unrealizable expectations.

If anybody would have taken what I have been saying to heart, they would understand.  So with that I have no sympathy.

By then the mustang will probably be redesigned and look even better than the current mustang and new camaro if it goes into production. GM loses again. They should have had a better plan than this. They should have had a plan incase people DID rave over it instead of showing the concept and waiting to see if people accepted it.

[regfootball]

again, a used vette or a GTO is a great option for them burnouts until 2010 arrives.....

[-Camaro-]

again, a used vette or a GTO is a great option for them burnouts until 2010 arrives.....

So is a mustang and a challenger. They'll lose lots of sales to those two, because they'd be out earlier and lots of people can't afford two new cars in a couple of years.

[hyperv6]

Please people take a deep breath and wait till Known GM scource involved with this program gives us the word.

Look for post from Fbodfather for clues to what is going on. He is the only one that has posted on this web site on this topic that has been correct on what is going on. I know for a fact he knows more than anyone here or at Edmunds. Being a GM employee is not the same as working on the Camaro program, it will give you an edge.

If he is able to post anything it will be first on the 5th gen section on the zc8camaro.come web site. I hope he will chime in here with some clues.

Lets just say from what I heard in the last 5 days I would not throw in the towel yet though I know things can change quick. If it does change it may be for a very good reason. The Camaro will not save GM and some other things just might.

[hyperv6]

Well I did just find a response from Scott S Fbodfather on the Camaro web site. Here is his quote

Scott Settlemire Quote:

"Don't believe most of what you read in print in the media..........

trust me on this................

edit:

They don't even have the powertrains right..........."

When he says trust him you can! He is one of the key players so don't give up yet!

Dont trust any of the nay sayers on this thread just trust Scott!

I will watch for more of his post.

There is a lot going on right now, I was not be given the details nor would press from my scouce. At this point nothing was negitive.

Edited February 16, 2006 by hyperv6

[ehaase]

I trust Evok more than an engineer working on a Camaro project, especially when it comes to the timing of the project. This project will go nowhere if the Board of Directors and the financial executives at GM don't find the funds to finance the project. The GMT900's and Lambda's need to succeed just to pay GM's current bills and obligations.

[mystik]

Well GM still wouldn't be losing a sale by not building it sooner, because your other alternative is a GM vehicle anyway.

Yup. Im sure everyone else who's considering a Camaro is also considering only a GM vehicle...

[hyperv6]

I trust Evok more than an engineer working on a Camaro project, especially when it comes to the timing of the project.  This project will go nowhere if the Board of Directors and the financial executives at GM don't find the funds to finance the project.  The GMT900's and Lambda's need to succeed just to pay GM's current bills and obligations.

Scott and was the last offical GM manager of the F body program and looks to be in place to pick up in the same place in the new program. Besides he is not a engineer. Either way I think he is qualified to be trusted.

If he says things are delayed I will believe him when he post it.

It is easy to say something won't happen but it is much harder to say what is going to happen when it is confidetial. Keep that in mind.

Either way I will feel better when the Delphi deal is done.

[andretti]

"Edmunds says no Camaro till 2010 MY, According to suppliers"

Let's face it! Deep down we all knew that there would be no Camaro until at least 2009. We were in denial and this just brought us back to reality

[evok]

If he says things are delayed I will believe him when he post it.

A program first has to be timed before it is delayed.

18 - 24 months - ha ha ha - keep believing the kool-aid brother - you are getting info from people that do not know vehicle development.

Sorry to tell everyone, a move to rwd by GM is a lot bigger investment for the company than building a CONCEPT vehicle. And it is not just the economics of scale by putting other vehicles on the rwd platform. It is the investment to get to the economics of scale when there is a paradign shift in philosophy.

Edited February 16, 2006 by evok

[hyperv6]

A program first has to be timed before it is delayed.

18 - 24 months - ha ha ha - keep believing the kool-aid brother - you are getting info from people that do not know vehicle development.

Sorry to tell everyone, a move to rwd by GM is a lot bigger investment for the company than building a CONCEPT vehicle.  And it is not just the economics of scale by putting other vehicles on the rwd platform.  It is the investment to get to the economics of scale when there is a paradign shift in philosophy.

You or I might be right you might be wrong. Either way the sun comes up tomarrow and life goes on.

Sorry but I will trust info from someone know involved with the Camaro program vs yourself on this one. So Scott Settlemire does not know vehicle development? HMMM. Was one of your company cars a 4th gen Z06? Did you help develope the Sunoco Camaro show car . Have you overseen the Camaro program? I think he has a better clue on how things work or don't work as well as anyone here. If and when this car comes to market it will be in part to a few people good and Scott as they never let this drop from the time the car left production.

You may be a well informed person from GM on many things. I have nothing personal but I do not know you and have not seen anything out of you to make me trust you over a publicly known person GM person involved with the car that told us don't believe the press on this one [Edmunds].

As for the 18-24 was an error. I have gone with as a guestimate of the fall of 08 and said the 18-24 was a mistake on my part in counting the months in a following post. This is my date not Scotts or anyone elses. This can be verified as I don't remove post like some here.

I have my speculation based on info from two places. It might pan out it might not as GM is always in flux. I do this is for the fun of it, so if you agree or disagree that is fine but keep the kool aide comments to yourself they are uncalled for here.

By the way you posted every day the don't anounce the program puts the car back 30 months? I asked for you to enlight us on this comment from early January. I really wanted to know if the days could be made up in some way oned it is anounced or at the rate you stated would we be looking at 2020 on this or later? Could you explain the philosophy on how this works?

I asked a reasonable querstion here of you and you never replied. Nor will I make light of you.

Even if we disagree we can still get along if you can be respectful.

Edited February 16, 2006 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

The Edmunds story is Bunk.

It will be here long before that.

No offense to any who believe otherwise, let's just wait and see.

[evok]

By the way you posted every day the don't anounce the program puts the car back 30 months? I asked for you to enlight us on this comment from early January. I really wanted to know if the days could be made up in some way oned it is anounced or at the rate you stated would we be  looking at 2020 on this or later? Could you explain the philosophy on how this works?

My quote:"Each day that passes moves the clock back app. 30 months until any zeta vehicle hits the showroom."

Hmm - Please re-read.

[hyperv6]

My quote:"Each day that passes moves the clock back app. 30 months until any zeta vehicle hits the showroom."

Hmm - Please re-read.

I'm sorry I miss read your statement.

Thank you for the reply.

Edited February 17, 2006 by hyperv6

[samy1691]

In 2010, the concept will be 4 years old.......too f-ing late for me.....re-do it if it takes 3 more years!!!

[toesuf94]

Edmunds...Edmunds...Edmunds...Don't see them sitting on the board at GM, and I didn't meet them at the unveiling...(Plus I have been told to NEVER NEVER NEVER believe anything in the media by a great, great man :AH-HA_wink: )

So, I am going to say that the Edmund's story is Bunk! Don't go blowing your deposit money on a Challanger or a pony...wait for the real deal - in '08. For those of you who think that those number's don't jive - I am driving an '07 and it is February 17, 2006. And I fully plan to be driving a Camaro way before 2010.

[I hope GMRULES again]

As much as I'd like to see the Camaro on sale I know GM has a lot more important things to be working on besides a Camaro.

[Petra]

If the Camaro is for the 2010 model year, that means it would be out sometime in 2009... so, 3 to 3 and a half years, or 36 to 45 months. That seems to me like a pretty typical amount of time to spend developing a new model, don't you think? Especially one you're building pretty much totally from scratch. Sure, the Solstice got here faster... but, in order to do so, GM had to borrow a lot of parts from existing models: Transmission from the Canyon/Colorado, rear suspension from the CTS, etc., etc. Rome wasn't built in a day, and Camaro won't be, either. Take the example of the PT Cruiser: Chrysler first showed the Plymouth Pronto back in, what, 1997? The PT didn't debut until the spring of 2000. That's a little over 3 years, is it not?

2009-'10 really isn't all that far away, either. It seems like it was just yesterday that it was 2003... and yet, that was 3 years ago already. My advice is to just sit back and relax... The Camaro will be here before you know it.

[Angry Dad]

Anybody here care to remember how accurate Edmunds was about the Lambdas?

Remember it took the great gods at Toyota three years to put the FJ into production and all it really is is a rebody of a Fourrunner.

[hyperv6]

Consider that work on this car did not just start last fall concept or not.

[Cortazzo]

In response to evok, you are right about the development period, and if you're an insider you know much more about the industry than outsider enthusiasts like many of us. But Ed Welburn's comments and Bob Lutz's comments have led me to believe that a lot of work has already been done. Let's say that the design is, if not finalized already, virtually finished. That is a sig. portion of time there, the rest is mechanical. While that constitutes the bulk of development time, there has been so much talk of plans in development being frozen and dusted off, i think there is a significant body of work completed on camaro and zeta, they really just have to some engineering and construction issues before we hear more.

And in regards to the original IL article, it said based on supplier sources. I don't know if anyone remembers, but about a year ago there was a leaked supplier document that showed MY2008 camaro and other RWD projects, and it turned out to be false, so I wouldn't put my eggs in a suppliers rumors basket.

[Fah-King-Cool]

i have heard that the camaro concept was one of the most complete concept cars ever built. meaning that all they need to do is find the appropriate factory to commence production (and change the interior IMO).

and as far as Edmunds goes welll.......

[BuddyP]

Seems that since there is a Camaro Convert. proto already setting pretty much finished that it would take no where near 4 years to put the regular coupe into production.

[Chicagoland]

Well, the 2010 model year is 3.5 years away, and the 2009 Auto Shows, which will spotlight '10 models, is 3 years.

Just like 10 years ago, when year 2000 still seemed 'so far away'.

[The O.C.]

No offense Northstar....but didn't you see Evok's posts?

BELIEVE ME.....he knows what he's talking about.  He has an inside track that not even many actual EMPLOYEES of the Big3 have....

If he feels it will be 2010, then I'm putting my betting money on Evok.

For all of you still debating this....I'll refer you to my previous post (attached.)

Evok KNOWS (for many good reasons) what he's talking about.

And yes...there are numerous employees/engineers at GM that don't have an inside track as strong as Evok's....I know it sounds strange, but it's true.