Ford: GM didn’t win ’05 sales crown -- we did

[Northstar]

Amy Wilson

Jamie LaReau

Automotive News / February 12, 2006 - 3:46 pm

http://autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?...1/1003&refsect=

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Ford Motor Co. says its Ford brand actually outsold Chevrolet in 2005. Ford will demand that Chevrolet stop advertising itself as America’s top brand, a company official said.

But General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner responded Sunday that GM will stand by sales data showing Chevrolet won the 2005 sales crown.

R.L. Polk & Co. registration data received by Ford executives Saturday morning showed that Ford had 5,000 more total registrations in 2005 than Chevrolet, spokesman Jim Cain said. Ford quickly whipped up a slide on the Polk data to include in its meeting with dealers Sunday here at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention.

Chevrolet earlier reported sales of 2,651,124 vehicles in 2005. Ford’s reported sales were 2,634,041. Chevrolet has been blanketing the airwaves with commercials touting it as America’s top brand.

Ford intends to send GM a letter this week asking that Chevrolet change the ads, Cain said.

“The lesson here is to make sure that all the facts are in your favor before you make such a bold claim,” he said. “Fair is fair.”

According to Ford, Polk data show 2.630 million total registrations in 2005 compared with 2.625 million for Chevrolet. Even when medium-duty trucks are exempted, Ford still had the most registrations, Cain said.

Polk registrations show the number of vehicles registered by retail and fleet customers. The earlier data released by the manufacturers reflect sales as reported by dealers.

A GM spokeswoman said sales data are the industry standard and that there are always discrepancies between sales and registration data. Wagoner said GM will stand by its claim based on sales data.

“All I know is the data we published and we all go by,” Wagoner said. “That’s been out a month or so. Our data is right. It’s published, public data, which has come out.”

[Flybrian]

Ford should spend its time worrying about important things, like finding more words that begin with 'F' or putting chrome on stuff.

[Drew Dowdell]

Chevy has a much more complete lineup then Ford... so having it be this close is impressive of Ford. Bet they're all F-150 and Mustang sales though......

[regfootball]

who cares? nobody cares about Ford vs. GM....like maybe 30 years ago they did....they should be worrying about toyota

[C.H.U.D.]

Yeah, fair is fair, but it fairly reeks of desperation.

[The O.C.]

Ford should spend its time worrying about important things, like finding more words that begin with 'F' or putting chrome on stuff.

Coming from someone with 15 years in the sales & marketing business (11 at GM) I'll tell you what may have happened.....

Chevrolet may have had their dealers dump RDRs or deliveries into the system to show a lead over Ford.

(in other words, report new Chevys as sold over the system without actually delivering them to any retail or fleet customers.) The bad news here is that Chevy dealers won't actually get credit for those deliveries when they are honestly sold at a later date....

That's why numbers reported by dealers would have shown Chevy in the lead.

The Polk data would show this.....as Polk only reports ACTUAL registrations.

IF this was the case, Chevy and GM could be in some REAL trouble......reporting "false" deliveries.....and Ford could have actual rights to the #1 claim.

Didn't we see this very same debate a few years ago in the race for #1 between Cadillac and Lincoln?

I hate to see anyone pulling these tricks.....as I did it ALL the time (or was instructed to do it by mgmt) when I worked at GM......

[evok]

Coming from someone with 15 years in the sales & marketing business (11 at GM) I'll tell you what may have happened.....

Chevrolet may have had their dealers dump RDRs or deliveries into the system to show a lead over Ford.

(in other words, report new Chevys as sold over the system without actually delivering them to any retail or fleet customers.)  The bad news here is that Chevy dealers won't actually get credit for those deliveries when they are honestly sold at a later date....

That's why numbers reported by dealers would have shown Chevy in the lead.

The Polk data would show this.....as Polk only reports ACTUAL registrations.

IF this was the case, Chevy and GM could be in some REAL trouble......reporting "false" deliveries.....and Ford could have actual rights to the #1 claim.

Didn't we see this very same debate a few years ago in the race for #1 between Cadillac and Lincoln?

I hate to see anyone pulling these tricks.....as I did it ALL the time (or was instructed to do it by mgmt) when I worked at GM......

This is symantics - a vehicle does not have to be registered to be classified as a sale.

[The O.C.]

This is symantics - a vehicle does not have to be registered to be classified as a sale.

It all depends on where you are pulling your numbers from.

If you are "just" pulling them from dealers' reported deliveries, you will not get the same number as what is actually registered (R.L. Polk.)

We did this all the time at GM....in order to #1) get more "sales" on the books (according to dealer-reported sales) and #2) dealers did it sometimes to "win" contests.

The bad part is that dealers are now stuck with a number of units that are "sold" but not registered. When those actual consumers take delivery.....days/weeks/months later, they will notice that the "in-service" date for their car was days/weeks/months back....taking crucial time off their warranty, etc. We had a problem with this stuff but dealers and/or GM has kept doing it.

When you "dump" deliveries in the system, of course, they are not registered with DMV. Hence there comes your discrepancy.

GM could be in a bad position here....let's hope it just blows over for them. GM is clearly referring to "dealer-reported" sales. Ford is referring to actual Polk registrations. Hence, Ford has a great argument about being #1 from ACTUAL owner-deliverd units.........

I don't know GM did this....I'm just sharing what I've experienced over the years....this stuff happens....OFTEN....

Edited February 14, 2006 by The O.C.

[evok]

There is a little bit of hankey pankey with both Ford and GM. And probably under pressure from the OEM, the dealers are the reason this occurs.

With the numbers between Ford and Chevy so close, and the metric is sales Chevy wins. Sales is logged by the paperwork and not state registration. This is less ominious than it appears in the article. The 1999 Cadillac story were a complete fabrication of sales.

An example is my car. The sale was logged at the end of the month according to the paperwork even though I did not take possession of the vehicle with completed state registration until 3 days later in the following month. I did not realize it at the time and assumed it was delivery date. Nope.

It is symantics. How many 2004 vehicles did each brand sell each year.

[Newbiewar]

what if vehicles sold in 2004 were regerstered in 05? this would obviously be a cheap shot to chevy... but honnestly... thats just Ford being lazy...

haha if i didnt know Ford was lurking around on this site i'd have something to say regaurding my dealership...

[thegriffon]

"We sold so many we didn't have time to register them all."

[Newbiewar]

GM knew it would come down to a day or two... they sell nearly 7000 cars and trucks a day... and with 05 January starting on a saturday, who knows if 04's sales tallies counted for 05 or 04 when it comes to regeristering...

2005 also ended with a new years weekend... and who knows if GM's cars tallied for 06 or 05 year?

or Ford for that matter...

comon, if we are going by sales recorded by dealerships GM is correct... if we are going by Registrants, Ford is right... but they both cant be right on the same playing feild

if GM makes that disclamer that its sales recorded by dealerships in the add, it makes it completely lawful

[Sixty8panther]

Want to know the discrepancy?

Several times while working at a dealer we had people buy rare or somehow special cars and never register them.

In fall of 2001 a brand new (special ordered) '02 Camaro SS convertible came in in Pewter and 6-speed. The guy shrink wrapped it and had it flatbeded to his "toy garage". He told us how he's got like 5 "brand new, never ben broken in" Chevys from the 80s & 90s sitting in his garage.

I bet several thousnd Vettes, SSRs, GTO, CTS-Vs, Solstices, XLRs & Park Ave Ultras were bought with this sme intention.

Some people are even preserving those corny Special Edition Monte Carlos.... you know Jeff Gordon, Dale Sr. & Dale Jr....

[Newbiewar]

Want to know the discrepancy?

Several times while working at a dealer we had people buy rare or somehow special cars and never register them.

In fall of 2001 a brand new (special ordered) '02 Camaro SS convertible came in in Pewter and 6-speed. The guy shrink wrapped it and had it flatbeded to his "toy garage". He told us how he's got like 5 "brand new, never ben broken in" Chevys from the 80s & 90s sitting in his garage.

I bet several thousnd Vettes, SSRs, GTO, CTS-Vs, Solstices, XLRs & Park Ave Ultras were bought with this sme intention.

Some people are even preserving those corny Special Edition Monte Carlos.... you know Jeff Gordon, Dale Sr. & Dale Jr....

well then you get things like that 29th 1997 pontiac firebird firehawk with the lt4 surface after almost 8 years

[enzl]

They're both just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic with this type of BS.

Odds are they'll both be arguing about 2nd in a few years anyway. This, my friends, is a Non-troversy.

[capriceman]

So GM can quickly change to as a Whole including all the brands and say there #1 right?

Also Ford should stop bragging about The F-150 as best selling. Since Combined the Silverado and Sierra beat it out and there practically the same truck. Thats Why GM should just say as a whole we out sold Toyota in cars and Ford in trucks.

[Variance]

Let's put this Ford vs. Chevy sales war to bed. Chevy wins.

Automotive News: Sorry, Ford; Chevy's the 2005 brand champ

[The O.C.]

Let's put this Ford vs. Chevy sales war to bed. Chevy wins.

Automotive News: Sorry, Ford; Chevy's the 2005 brand champ

The SCARY part is that in the article, Automotive News reports that if you take fleet sales out of the equation, Toyota beat BOTH of them for the year.

In other words....Toyota is the #1 brand that "people actually chose to buy" (i.e...."retail" purchase, not fleet sales or rental-car sales)

[Northstar]

The SCARY part is that in the article, Automotive News reports that if you take fleet sales out of the equation, Toyota beat BOTH of them for the year.

In other words....Toyota is the #1 brand that "people actually chose to buy" (i.e...."retail" purchase, not fleet sales or rental-car sales)

Where does it say it beat them for the year? The article doesn't even have the word 'Toyota' in it. There is an article saying Toyota sold more retail sales than the other two in January 2006, but no where does it say it beat them for all of 2005. Usually Ford and GM sell a lot fewer vehicles in January and Febuary than they do in most other months, while Toyota doesn't seem to have as big as a drop off in sales. I would expect that Chevy and Ford will sell more retail sales in other months than Toyota will based on the fact that they have such a big drop off in January and Febuary vs. other months.

[The O.C.]

Where does it say it beat them for the year? The article doesn't even have the word 'Toyota' in it. There is an article saying Toyota sold more retail sales than the other two in January 2006, but no where does it say it beat them for all of 2005. Usually Ford and GM sell a lot fewer vehicles in January and Febuary than they do in most other months, while Toyota doesn't seem to have as big as a drop off in sales. I would expect that Chevy and Ford will sell more retail sales in other months than Toyota will based on the fact that they have such a big drop off in January and Febuary vs. other months.

Okay....correction.

I was going from memory after reading Automotive News earlier.

On page 12, the "opinion" section, titled "Who's First? Who Cares? It's a Ho-Hummer"

It was talking about January....it says "In January, neither Chevy nor Ford finished first where it counts most.....in retail sales. If unprofitable fleet volume is excluded, Toyota outsold both brands during the month. Ford and Chevy gorged on low-profit sales to daily-rental and corporate fleets."

Plus, I don't think the market is any different for GM in January and February than it is for anyone else.

[The O.C.]

Okay....correction.

I was going from memory after reading Automotive News earlier.

On page 12, the "opinion" section, titled "Who's First?  Who Cares?  It's a Ho-Hummer"

It was talking about January....it says "In January, neither Chevy nor Ford finished first where it counts most.....in retail sales.  If unprofitable fleet volume is excluded, Toyota outsold both brands during the month.  Ford and Chevy gorged on low-profit sales to daily-rental and corporate fleets."

Plus, I don't think the market is any different for GM in January and February than it is for anyone else.

The only reason I harp on this.....is I think that too often, people don't think about the HUGE impact that rental and corporate fleet sales have on specifially GM and Ford's sales numbers.

When you sell 250,000+ Impalas a year......and 62% of them (the old model) were sold to fleets, that leaves you with LESS than 100K of them that were sold to actual paying customers that DESIRED that product over all others.

That's a HUGE discrepancy! And hard to consider a car like that a "true" success in the marketplace.

[01LightningGal]

So GM can quickly change to as a Whole including all the brands and say there #1 right?

Also Ford should stop bragging about The F-150 as best selling. Since Combined the Silverado and Sierra beat it out and there practically the same truck. Thats Why GM should just say as a whole we out sold Toyota in cars and Ford in trucks.

Why should Ford stop advertising the F-150 as the best selling truck??? I haven't seen too many GM trucks.

Ford is a brand and a manufacturer. The Ford brand sold more trucks than the Chevrolet brand, and the GMC brand. There is no such thing as a GM brand. Thus, Ford is correct in their advertising.

Ford does not count Explorer/Mountaineer/Aviator together either.......... even though they are the same truck. Ford does not count Mark LT sales with F-series sales. Toyota does not count ES330 sales with Camry sales.

As someone who owned an auto repair and towing business for 9 years, I can tell you that I have NEVER had a GMC truck owner say anything resembling kind, about a Chevy truck. They do not know they are the same thing. As a matter of fact, most of them wouldn't be caught dead in a Chevy truck, as they are a POS (according to them).

You give the buying public way too much credit.

[njtex]

Did Ford back down on this issue? Seems like it has already blown over to me.

[Newbiewar]

The only reason I harp on this.....is I think that too often, people don't think about the HUGE impact that rental and corporate fleet sales have on specifially GM and Ford's sales numbers.

When you sell 250,000+ Impalas a year......and 62% of them (the old model) were sold to fleets, that leaves you with LESS than 100K of them that were sold to actual paying customers that DESIRED that product over all others.

That's a HUGE discrepancy!  And hard to consider a car like that a "true" success in the marketplace.

just go someone in here this week, that they said... "man we rented this G6 and... its such a nice car, we've got to have it"

but... of course fleet isnt always as unprofitable as one might suggest, accually fleet sometimes isnt as good a deal as retail... but if you purchase 4 or more vehicles in a year you must get the fleet deal... not the retail, hence its better to buy retail... so for GM it doesnt really matter a sale is a sale, its capacity problems...

[Charger4U]

i dont know how ford sells, i think theyre cars dont look new or redseigned and are just fugly