The New Tundra

[Variance]

The New Tundra: Success or Strike 3?

-Variance

February 11, 2006

Image: Toyota/Lexus/Scion Pressroom

The Toyota Camry is the best-selling car in America. It has been thanks to its reputation for being impeccably reliable, styling that’s not unpleasing to the eye (but not particularly thrilling to look at) and being basically just a good Average Joe car. The 2007 Camry with its (slightly) bolder styling, increased power and available hybrid powertrain will likely allow the Camry to keep its best-seller crown.

But I’m not here to talk about the Camry. I’m writing this to reflect on Toyota’s full-size pickup, the Tundra, which has been everything but a best-seller.

A Forgettable Past

Toyota first foray into the big pickup market was the 1993 T-100. The effort put into the truck seemed to have been as much as VW’s effort in bringing the Mark V Golf/GTI to the States in a timely manner. It was smaller than its domestic competitors, sized between a Dodge Dakota and “full” full-sizers. The truck also only came in a regular cab configuration. Also, the T-100 initially only came with a 3.0L V6 with a tire-smoking 150hp. Realizing their slip-up in offering this as their only engine, Toyota set themselves straight and offered another engine for 1994 model year: a 2.7L inline-4 with that same 150hp and 177 lb-ft of torque (which – by the way – is only3 lb-ft less than the V6 managed to muster). Fortunately, this could only be had in the stripper 2WD T-100s. For ’95, the T upgraded to a DOHC 3.4L V6 that pushed out a less embarrassing 190 horses and 220 pound-feet. But the damage of the first two years had been done. Even with a respectable payload of 2480lb payload capacity offered by its “One Ton” model, the T-100 did not win over a great amount of truck buyers.

The Second Time Around

Toyota took a 1999 model year hiatus to try to get it right the second time. The result was a brand-new truck with a brand-new name: the Tundra. Toyota took this one a bit more seriously. The 3.4 V6 made a return appearance but it didn’t come alone. The Tundra’s full power came in the form of a 4.7-liter V8 engine that brought 245hp and 315lb-ft to the table. The power was on par with the domestics but as with the T-100, the sizing wasn’t. It was still somewhat undersized compared to its competitors and it wouldn’t be until the 2004 model year (with the introduction of the Double Cab) that the Tundra would be truly full-sized. It also didn’t help that Nissan, with the introduction of the Titan featuring a powerful 5.6L V8, overshadowed Toyota in being known as the producer of the first true Japanese full-size truck.

It would seem if Toyota’s designer were to ever get this full-size truck thing right, they would need a swift kick in the ass.

Third Time a Charm?

Well, it would seem with the new 2007 Tundra, they received two swift kicks in the ass with spiked-toed boots....coated in hot sauce.

The Tundra was officially unveiled this week at the Chicago Auto Show and it looks like Toyota is dead set on making this truck a contender. The new Tundra is able to be called truly full-sized (not just the crew cab version). The premiered extended cab model meets or exceeds the domestic and Nissan full-size trucks in most dimensions. It also offers more engine choice than ever. In addition to a 4.0L V6 and old top engine, the 4.7L i-Force V8; the Tundra packs a brand-new 5.7L V8. Specific numbers are not known but Toyota has states it will exceed 300hp that will be mated with a 6-speed transmission.

Another problem that plagued the previous trucks was that many felt that they had the styling of older Fords. The previous Tundra’s interior was criticized by some of having the interior of the previous generation F-150. You’d be hard pressed to find a copied styling element with the new Tundra. The “yin-and-yang” interior especially is very unique. In fact, Toyota tried so hard and to make the Tundra look original, that it borders on looking cartoonish, quite frankly. At it stands, though I think they pulled it off decently.

The Next Level

If there’s any real indication that Toyota isn’t messing about with the new Tundra, it would be the new San Antonio, Texas plant built for the new Tundra in which they invested $800 million. Also, it has become common knowledge that Toyota (as well as Nissan) plans on building a heavy-duty version of the Tundra. It was reported a little while back that Toyota was in talks with diesel-engine maker Cummins about producing a V8 diesel engine.

Variance’s Verdict

So will the new Tundra set the full-size pickup world on fire? Well, I certainly think it will take a larger piece of the pie than the previous Tundra did but the next Silverado and Sierra are around the corner and judging by the newest spyshots (and the already unveiled Avalanche), Toyota can expect GM won’t be giving up it’s market share without a bloody, knock-down, drag-out, boisterous, violent fight. (Have you seen the new HD GM trucks? Damn, those are some big-ass trucks...) Also in 2007, Nissan’s and Ford’s full-sizers, the Titan and F-150, are due to be refreshed and they both will likely see (at least) power upgrades.

Grab some popcorn, guys. This’ll be a good one.

[mystik]

Nice read. You pointed out a good X-factor that that really helps put things into perspective about this truck. Toyota's climb to the top of the automotive pantheon came at a time where its #1 competitor was going through a transition phase. Toyota gained market share because GM had nothing on the horizon, nothing going for it, and had the interiors of early 90's trucks and cars. So if the new Tundra was going up against the 06 Silverado, then yes, it is a better truck, and would have gained market share. Only now its different. Its not the same GM that Toyota grew accustomed to taking market share from. This one is different now. America has obviously fallen in love with the new Tahoe. The idea of getting a beautiful truck or SUV with a Chevy badge is something that hasn't really happened before. Toyota has gotten accustomed to getting to the market first. This way they are assured of stealing sales. But it's just not the case this time. When the new Silverado comes out, the Toyota team will look befuddled again and say "Now what?" Which is exactly what they should be asking. Because unlike before, the Silverado and Tundra are coming out at the same time. And one is breaking the previous incarnations downfalls, even though it remained the best selling vehicle for God knows how many years. So what stands to break more ground? A truck that barely sold getting signifcantly improved, or a domestic icon getting obscenely improved? This isn't a Toyota bash, just a realization. I'll eat my words if this new Tundra turns out to be a market hit, though there is a much higher chance that it will not. Why would it? It's not like its a 300C, a VW Beetle or a Toyota Prius. It's not something a biased market desperately needs. People have a different image of trucks than of cars. And in that stance, Toyota is setting themselves up for dissapointment again. Again, I bring up the Nissan Titan. The truck that was supposed to steal sales from the domestics and climb up the truck ladder. Initial sales pointed that way, only to bottom out and flatten. And it has stayed there. Similar to the bias that a good luxury car is made from a foreign brand, a good truck is made by domestics. This Tundra, even though better than the original, does not even begin to try to change that. It is not THAT much better. It's just better.

[buyacargetacheck]

Nice read. You pointed out a good X-factor that that really helps put things into perspective about this truck. Toyota's climb to the top of the automotive pantheon came at a time where its #1 competitor was going through a transition phase. Toyota gained market share because GM had nothing on the horizon, nothing going for it, and had the interiors of early 90's trucks and cars. So if the new Tundra was going up against the 06 Silverado, then yes, it is a better truck, and would have gained market share. Only now its different. Its not the same GM that Toyota grew accustomed to taking market share from. This one is different now. America has obviously fallen in love with the new Tahoe. The idea of getting a beautiful truck or SUV with a Chevy badge is something that hasn't really happened before. Toyota has gotten accustomed to getting to the market first. This way they are assured of stealing sales. But it's just not the case this time. When the new Silverado comes out, the Toyota team will look befuddled again and say "Now what?" Which is exactly what they should be asking. Because unlike before, the Silverado and Tundra are coming out at the same time. And one is breaking the previous incarnations downfalls, even though it remained the best selling vehicle for God knows how many years. So what stands to break more ground? A truck that barely sold getting signifcantly improved, or a domestic icon getting obscenely improved? This isn't a Toyota bash, just a realization. I'll eat my words if this new Tundra turns out to be a market hit, though there is a much higher chance that it will not. Why would it? It's not like its a 300C, a VW Beetle or a Toyota Prius. It's not something a biased market desperately needs. People have a different image of trucks than of cars. And in that stance, Toyota is setting themselves up for dissapointment again. Again, I bring up the Nissan Titan. The truck that was supposed to steal sales from the domestics and climb up the truck ladder. Initial sales pointed that way, only to bottom out and flatten. And it has stayed there. Similar to the bias that a good luxury car is made from a foreign brand, a good truck is made by domestics. This Tundra, even though better than the original, does not even begin to try to change that. It is not THAT much better. It's just better.

For GM to dismiss Toyota would be at its own peril. Toyota will sell every single Tundra they pump out - at a profit and with few incentives. GM will not be able to say the same thing even with the new and, presumably, excellent Silverado/Sierra design.

[mjd1001]

I like the looks of the new Tundra, except for one thing....the hood seems to be too short with respect to the rest of the vehicle.

It'll probably stack up very well with its tech specs though, so it should do well.

[mrmonte]

Looks like an F-150

[usa1]

I would like nothing more than see the new Tundra to bomb in the marketplace. It would be great to see GM and Ford come out with best in class products that put Toyota to shame. I would love to see Toyota's new plant in Texas scaled back over time because lack of demand for the Tundra. If this does not happen, then the truck market will slowly become like the car market is today and GM and Ford will continue to shrink.

Mark

[Variance]

Toyota gained market share because GM had nothing on the horizon, nothing going for it, and had the interiors of early 90's trucks and cars. So if the new Tundra was going up against the 06 Silverado, then yes, it is a better truck, and would have gained market share. Only now its different. Its not the same GM that Toyota grew accustomed to taking market share from. This one is different now. America has obviously fallen in love with the new Tahoe. The idea of getting a beautiful truck or SUV with a Chevy badge is something that hasn't really happened before.

That's what I was alluding to near the end of the article. If there's one thing GM doesn't mess around with, it's their pickup trucks.

The reason for my opening paragraph about the Camry was to make a point that I believe Toyota expected too much leverage from their brand name. That is to say, when the average American buys a Camry (or any Toyota car) they (not always but) often sell with the help of the "Toyota" name. Toyota used a simple recipe:

-Good reliability

-Inoffensive styling

-"Toyota" name

Blend together and serve to public for good sales.

The problem though, is that this recipe doesn't work well for trucks. It's like using a cookie recipe thinking it'll make a good cake. Sure, some people might like it but it's not really the appropriate thing to do. Truck buyers are more demanding than car buyers. They need more assurances that the vehicle they buy is going to be able to do what they ask of it. The fact that the previous Tundra and T-100 were "Toyotas" only helped them so much but the name wasn't enough to outweigh their glaring deficinies.

Toyota was able to take it relatively easy with the Camry in the past because quite frankly GM (and the other domestics) dicked around to some extent with their midsize cars (though today, they are improving on that front). But GM knows how important trucks are to them, so they pull vitrually no punches with them.

[andy82471]

If they offer enough configaration plus a heavy duty version, I think they can easily sell between 200 to 300K a year. I am sort of surprised that GM plans to stick with the 4 speed auto for the 5.3L engine and only offering the 6 speed with the 6.0 and the 6.2L engine. But I guess that is understandable given GM's financial situation.

[mystik]

For GM to dismiss Toyota would be at its own peril.  Toyota will sell every single Tundra they pump out - at a profit and with few incentives.  GM will not be able to say the same thing even with the new and, presumably, excellent Silverado/Sierra design.

How do you figure? Oh thats right...because the new Tahoes are not moving at all without incentives and at a profit. Right? Everyone, especially Toyota, needs to realize that GM has changed. And every single car coming out is aimed at Toyota's throat. The Enclave is a straight shot at one of their biggest cash cows, the RX. The Tahoe is a much worthier SUV than the Sequoia or 4 Runner. The Saturn Aura looks to be a great Camry/Corolla fighter...but all of these market segments are not dominated by any one make or model. They arent. Except for trucks, which are dominated by Chevy and Ford. Nissan released the Titan a few years back, into the heart of the GMT-800 Silverado's campaign. Did they lose sales? No. They did not lose sales against a superior truck, with a better interior and "more reliability". Why is that? Because Americans love American trucks. And Americans like the idea of imported cars. GM wasnt going to stand still and tread mud forever. So people think that his new Tundra is going to give the Silver-freaking-rado, GM's cash cow, GM's flagship, the single vehicle line that has kept the Chevy name at the top of the charts for God knows how many years now, a run for its money? Please. Not going to happen until GM itself caves. Because unlike the car industry, it doesnt matter what magazines or editors say, or anyone else. In the full size truck market, Toyota is bottom of the barrel. And has a long way to go before they even begin trying to climb to the top.

[thatoneguy]

Ok so we have a lot of opinionated people over here at C&G but over at Toyota Nation, its insane the amount of bias. I'm trying to rally the troops, lets go over there and show them.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t121001.html

[ChevyNovs99]

To me it looks like it has the front of a Ram, the roofline of a Titan, and the overall proportions of an F-150. The interior is hideous as well.

[mjd1001]

How do you figure? Oh thats right...because the new Tahoes are not moving at all without incentives and at a profit. Right? Everyone, especially Toyota, needs to realize that GM has changed. And every single car coming out is aimed at Toyota's throat. The Enclave is a straight shot at one of their biggest cash cows, the RX. The Tahoe is a much worthier SUV than the Sequoia or 4 Runner. The Saturn Aura looks to be a great Camry/Corolla fighter...but all of these market segments are not dominated by any one make or model. They arent. Except for trucks, which are dominated by Chevy and Ford. Nissan released the Titan a few years back, into the heart of the GMT-800 Silverado's campaign. Did they lose sales? No. They did not lose sales against a superior truck, with a better interior and "more reliability". Why is that? Because Americans love American trucks. And Americans like the idea of imported cars. GM wasnt going to stand still and tread mud forever. So people think that his new Tundra is going to give the Silver-freaking-rado, GM's cash cow, GM's flagship, the single vehicle line that has kept the Chevy name at the top of the charts for God knows how many years now, a run for its money? Please. Not going to happen until GM itself caves. Because unlike the car industry, it doesnt matter what magazines or editors say, or anyone else. In the full size truck market, Toyota is bottom of the barrel. And has a long way to go before they even begin trying to climb to the top.

I don't know...If the power and fuel economy are on par with the domestics, I think this may steal some sales from them.

I know some people through work. Some of them currently drive Import cars and domestic trucks, and from talking to them they would have no problem buying an Import truck. The only reason they have not is some of them are in construction and contracting, and the Toyota was always a bit smaller and less powerful than the domestics. If that changes (and it looks like it may), Toyota may attract truck buyers who already own Import cars.

I won't buy one. I don't really need a full size truck, and while I like the looks of this new truck I think the hood is too short, but I think others will.

One thing is for sure, I dont' think Toyota will lose any current Tundra owners because they don't like this new one as much as the old one.

[FAPTurbo]

Ok so we have a lot of opinionated people over here at C&G but over at Toyota Nation, its insane the amount of bias. I'm trying to rally the troops, lets go over there and show them.

They sure biased... but I'd just leave them alone. If we all go there and fill up the boards, what's to stop them from coming here and doing the same, filling it up with their heavily opinionated verbal diharraea.

Nah, I'd just wait for some head to head tests, (Silverado or Sierra vs. Tundra) and let the results speak for themselves. Japan has not made a truly successful domestic-beater truck yet, (T-100, Tacoma, Ridgeline) and honestly, the Tundra is going to have such a huge, expensive price gap between the Domestic's, that it'll barely make a dent, just like the others.

(If you do decide to storm the Toyota page, maybe you oughta get the Dodge/Mopar and Ford dudes to help out... I'd bet they'd love to give us a hand :AH-HA_wink: )

[Brandon Lutz]

Looks like this time, they copied the Dodge Ram front end and flipped the headlights upside down.

The way Toyota shaped the rear of the cab as well reminds me of Dodges Quad Cab models.

Overall, bigger truck, still ugly as sin IMHO.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Brandon Lutz

[daves87rs]

Ok so we have a lot of opinionated people over here at C&G but over at Toyota Nation, its insane the amount of bias. I'm trying to rally the troops, lets go over there and show them.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t121001.html

I wouldn't waste your time. They would kill you. No joke.

that would be like J-body or Neon owners bashing Hondas on their website...

[daves87rs]

Nice read. You pointed out a good X-factor that that really helps put things into perspective about this truck. Toyota's climb to the top of the automotive pantheon came at a time where its #1 competitor was going through a transition phase. Toyota gained market share because GM had nothing on the horizon, nothing going for it, and had the interiors of early 90's trucks and cars. So if the new Tundra was going up against the 06 Silverado, then yes, it is a better truck, and would have gained market share. Only now its different. Its not the same GM that Toyota grew accustomed to taking market share from. This one is different now. America has obviously fallen in love with the new Tahoe. The idea of getting a beautiful truck or SUV with a Chevy badge is something that hasn't really happened before. Toyota has gotten accustomed to getting to the market first. This way they are assured of stealing sales. But it's just not the case this time. When the new Silverado comes out, the Toyota team will look befuddled again and say "Now what?" Which is exactly what they should be asking. Because unlike before, the Silverado and Tundra are coming out at the same time. And one is breaking the previous incarnations downfalls, even though it remained the best selling vehicle for God knows how many years. So what stands to break more ground? A truck that barely sold getting signifcantly improved, or a domestic icon getting obscenely improved? This isn't a Toyota bash, just a realization. I'll eat my words if this new Tundra turns out to be a market hit, though there is a much higher chance that it will not. Why would it? It's not like its a 300C, a VW Beetle or a Toyota Prius. It's not something a biased market desperately needs. People have a different image of trucks than of cars. And in that stance, Toyota is setting themselves up for dissapointment again. Again, I bring up the Nissan Titan. The truck that was supposed to steal sales from the domestics and climb up the truck ladder. Initial sales pointed that way, only to bottom out and flatten. And it has stayed there. Similar to the bias that a good luxury car is made from a foreign brand, a good truck is made by domestics. This Tundra, even though better than the original, does not even begin to try to change that. It is not THAT much better. It's just better.

You make some good points my friend...But things are different now.

The new Silverado will be much better. That I know.

But the Tundra will still steal sales...if in the fact it is nothing more than the tundra

just being different...

And the truck market is changing, right before your eyes. Loyalties are not as important as they used to be. That, gas prices, along with other issues are

making things much different than just a few years ago.

You bring up the Titan...but it was way too hyped...even though it wasn't a bad truck. Nissian was very unprepared..they did their own thing, and well, you see where that went.

Before you say the Tundra is not much better, you may want to drive it first.

That's how I plan to decide.

Well, almost anyways/

You know what they say about looks....

*me running from tundra*

THough I would still like to drive it first..to see how it stacks up.......

[daves87rs]

Looks like this time, they copied the Dodge Ram front end and flipped the headlights upside down.

The way Toyota shaped the rear of the cab as well reminds me of Dodges Quad Cab models.

Overall, bigger truck, still ugly as sin IMHO.

From the back, it looks good.

The front, well...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Yes gas prices might change things, but GM already had the most efficient truck, and they just set the bar higher. Even though the Tundra was smaller, with a less powerful engine, it was still less efficient than the Silverado. I wonder how the new bigger Tundra with bigger engines, will fare with gas mileage.

GM will also have the hybrid model available in a year.

[thedriver]

i don't think it will steal sales in any significant manner from ford or chevy, but it will bring a few new sales of people who might not have thought of buying a truck, same as the honda ridgeline. it will continue at the pace it has until now, being barely profitable, but toyota will never exit the market.

[Robert Hall]

I would think the Tundra would get some Tacoma sales also..toyota small trucks have had a loyal following for a long time..I could see some Tacoma owners and intenders stepping up to the Tundra..

[regfootball]

I would like nothing more than see the new Tundra to bomb in the marketplace.  It would be great to see GM and Ford come out with best in class products that put Toyota to shame.    I would love to see Toyota's new plant in Texas scaled back over time because lack of demand for the Tundra.  If this does not happen, then the truck market will slowly become like the car market is today and GM and Ford will continue to shrink.

Mark

one nice thing for toyota is if they do need to scale back production, they don't have the albatross of handicapping labor contracts to work around. they can cut cut cut all they want.

[mystik]

You make some good points my friend...But things are different now.

The new Silverado will be much better. That I know.

But the Tundra will still steal sales...if in the fact it is nothing more than the tundra

just being different...

And the truck market is changing, right before your eyes. Loyalties are not as important as they used to be. That, gas prices, along with other issues are

making things much different than just a few years ago.

You bring up the Titan...but it was way too hyped...even though it wasn't a bad truck. Nissian was very unprepared..they did their own thing, and well, you see where that went.

Before you say the Tundra is not much better, you may want to drive it first.

That's how I plan to decide.

Well, almost anyways/

You know what they say about looks....

*me running from tundra*

THough I would still like to drive it first..to see how it stacks up.......

I understand, and yes its hard to have a sensible opinion without driving both. Hell, I havent even seen the new Silverado. But this is one segment where GM and Ford are king. And no one else is even remotely close. So it's going to be hard pressed to say the this new Tundra will steal market share. Whats not to say that the new Silverado will not REGAIN market share from the Tundra, Titan, F-150 and Ram? Lets face it, the Silverado was snubbed by a lot of buyers for its lower stance and crummy interior. So when the new one comes out, wouldn't it be safe to assume that it will once again be considered with the upper level of the truck stratosphere? Or maybe we will see when the TOTY competitions are held, and see which one comes out on top. Because even that makes me nervous. The Silverado could be incredible but the magazines would not hesitate to pull the trigger on the opportunity to make a Toyota beat a flagship GM vehicle at its own game. And what kind of publicity would THAT be for GM. I think loyalties are not as strong as they used to be in the car segment (look at Cadillac. Standard of the world before, now its trying to regain its former glory). But I still think brand loyalty in trucks is as strong as ever. Trucks, unlike cars, are more "Tried and true". We'll see later on in the year though, and am still waiting to figure out when the Silverado will debut? If they're making us wait this long...it has to be good.

[99camaroSS]

it looks like someone did that to the front of this thing and then went muy loco the green house is horrid, and is anyone else noticing how wide that b pillar is

oh and please dont even get me started on the interior!

i actually liked the old double cab tundras but my god the f ed this up

when the new silverados and tundras hit the streets the toyotas will be

[Clownzilla]

To me it looks like it has the front of a Ram, the roofline of a Titan, and the overall proportions of an F-150.  The interior is hideous as well.

I agree, the outside does tend to rip off of some other trucks, but that isn't as offensive as the inside. I am REALLY starting to dislike Toyota and Nissan designs. They are all starting to look like the cars of the "future". Which isn't a good thing. Honda is starting to show this in their new Civic too. The big 2.5 are starting to show some MAJORLY superior styling to these "trend setters".

[-Camaro-]

It'll steal some sales, that's expected from anything new to the market. Even if a new truck comes out by some brand that no one's ever heard of and it sucks, it'll still steal some sales. I think the truck market will soon be overly saturated like the car market is today...

[camaro]

i don't think it will steal sales in any significant manner from ford or chevy, but it will bring a few new sales of people who might not have thought of buying a truck, same as the honda ridgeline. it will continue at the pace it has until now, being barely profitable, but toyota will never exit the market.

Where are the Honda Ridgelines? I live in the NJ and I've seen TWO. That's right. TWO. Toytoa Tundras are hard to come buy here as well. All I see is Chevy, Ford, and Dodge. No matter how hard Japan tries, trucks are the sole property of the Big 3. You can put all the bells and whistles (including hybrid technology) you want on a Japanese truck and it will still not sell (except for tree-hugging & ignorant Americans).

Just look at the spyshots of the GMT900 dualie floating around out there. The f thing is HUGE! I will definitely be saving my pennies for a new Silverado.

So people think that his new Tundra is going to give the Silver-freaking-rado, GM's cash cow, GM's flagship, the single vehicle line that has kept the Chevy name at the top of the charts for God knows how many years now, a run for its money? Please. Not going to happen until GM itself caves. Because unlike the car industry, it doesnt matter what magazines or editors say, or anyone else. In the full size truck market, Toyota is bottom of the barrel. And has a long way to go before they even begin trying to climb to the top.

This guy deserves a medal.

Edited February 13, 2006 by camaro

[daves87rs]

I understand, and yes its hard to have a sensible opinion without driving both. Hell, I havent even seen the new Silverado. But this is one segment where GM and Ford are king. And no one else is even remotely close. So it's going to be hard pressed to say the this new Tundra will steal market share. Whats not to say that the new Silverado will not REGAIN market share from the Tundra, Titan, F-150 and Ram? Lets face it, the Silverado was snubbed by a lot of buyers for its lower stance and crummy interior. So when the new one comes out, wouldn't it be safe to assume that it will once again be considered with the upper level of the truck stratosphere? Or maybe we will see when the TOTY competitions are held, and see which one comes out on top. Because even that makes me nervous. The Silverado could be incredible but the magazines would not hesitate to pull the trigger on the opportunity to make a Toyota beat a flagship GM vehicle at its own game. And what kind of publicity would THAT be for GM. I think loyalties are not as strong as they used to be in the car segment (look at Cadillac. Standard of the world before, now its trying to regain its former glory). But I still think brand loyalty in trucks is as strong as ever. Trucks, unlike cars, are more "Tried and true". We'll see later on in the year though, and am still waiting to figure out when the Silverado will debut? If they're making us wait this long...it has to be good.

Hmmm...getting market share back? Could be very true...I like that point...

Yeah, that's what I hoping too..you would think it would have been first...

I'm hoping for some good surprises....

[Hudson]

The New Tundra: Success or Strike 3?

-Variance

Toyota took a 1999 model year hiatus to try to get it right the second time. The result was a brand-new truck with a brand-new name: the Tundra. Toyota took this one a bit more seriously. The 3.4 V6 made a return appearance but it didn’t come alone. The Tundra’s full power came in the form of a 4.7-liter V8 engine that brought 245hp and 315lb-ft to the table. The power was on par with the domestics but as with the T-100, the sizing wasn’t. It was still somewhat undersized compared to its competitors and it wouldn’t be until the 2004 model year (with the introduction of the Double Cab) that the Tundra would be truly full-sized. It also didn’t help that Nissan, with the introduction of the Titan featuring a powerful 5.6L V8, overshadowed Toyota in being known as the producer of the first true Japanese full-size truck.

It would seem if Toyota’s designer were to ever get this full-size truck thing right, they would need a swift kick in the ass.

While the Toyota T100 was smaller than the Big3 full-sized trucks, it was still a full-sized pickup in its own right. Because it's the smallest of the bunch doesn't mean it's in another class. And the extended cab T100 came later, which was missed.

One of the buff books discussed the T100 as a market that GM and Ford were missing. Dodge introduced the mid-sized pickup back in the 1980s and Toyota followed it with the larger T100. Ford discussed a smaller pickup in between the Ranger and the F150 in the 1990s, but it was ultimately dropped. Toyota (and Dodge) had this market to themselves. Not a bad place to be.

As for the Tundra, it's far from a failure or even "strike 2" (and I see the T100 as a "foul tip" anyway). The Tundra is full-sized, even before the addition of the Double Cab. Toyota was "the first true" Japanese branded full-sized pickup in the US.

Toyota's made a few missteps along the way (adding the four-cylinder to the T100 when it obviously needed MORE power), but each step worked well to prepare the American market for a Toyota full-sized pickup. Where the first generation Tundra was a solid single (using your baseball metaphor), the new Tundra is a solid extra base hit.

[corvettekidc6]

The New Tundra: Success or Strike 3?

-Variance

February 11, 2006

Image: Toyota/Lexus/Scion Pressroom

The Toyota Camry is the best-selling car in America. It has been thanks to its reputation for being impeccably reliable, styling that’s not unpleasing to the eye (but not particularly thrilling to look at) and being basically just a good Average Joe car. The 2007 Camry with its (slightly) bolder styling, increased power and available hybrid powertrain will likely allow the Camry to keep its best-seller crown.

But I’m not here to talk about the Camry. I’m writing this to reflect on Toyota’s full-size pickup, the Tundra, which has been everything but a best-seller.

A Forgettable Past

Toyota first foray into the big pickup market was the 1993 T-100. The effort put into the truck seemed to have been as much as VW’s effort in bringing the Mark V Golf/GTI to the States in a timely manner. It was smaller than its domestic competitors, sized between a Dodge Dakota and “full” full-sizers. The truck also only came in a regular cab configuration. Also, the T-100 initially only came with a 3.0L V6 with a tire-smoking 150hp. Realizing their slip-up in offering this as their only engine, Toyota set themselves straight and offered another engine for 1994 model year: a 2.7L inline-4 with that same 150hp and 177 lb-ft of torque (which – by the way – is only3 lb-ft less than the V6 managed to muster). Fortunately, this could only be had in the stripper 2WD T-100s. For ’95, the T upgraded to a DOHC 3.4L V6 that pushed out a less embarrassing 190 horses and 220 pound-feet. But the damage of the first two years had been done. Even with a respectable payload of 2480lb payload capacity offered by its “One Ton” model, the T-100 did not win over a great amount of truck buyers.

The Second Time Around

Toyota took a 1999 model year hiatus to try to get it right the second time. The result was a brand-new truck with a brand-new name: the Tundra. Toyota took this one a bit more seriously. The 3.4 V6 made a return appearance but it didn’t come alone. The Tundra’s full power came in the form of a 4.7-liter V8 engine that brought 245hp and 315lb-ft to the table. The power was on par with the domestics but as with the T-100, the sizing wasn’t. It was still somewhat undersized compared to its competitors and it wouldn’t be until the 2004 model year (with the introduction of the Double Cab) that the Tundra would be truly full-sized. It also didn’t help that Nissan, with the introduction of the Titan featuring a powerful 5.6L V8, overshadowed Toyota in being known as the producer of the first true Japanese full-size truck.

It would seem if Toyota’s designer were to ever get this full-size truck thing right, they would need a swift kick in the ass.

Third Time a Charm?

Well, it would seem with the new 2007 Tundra, they received two swift kicks in the ass with spiked-toed boots....coated in hot sauce.

The Tundra was officially unveiled this week at the Chicago Auto Show and it looks like Toyota is dead set on making this truck a contender. The new Tundra is able to be called truly full-sized (not just the crew cab version). The premiered extended cab model meets or exceeds the domestic and Nissan full-size trucks in most dimensions. It also offers more engine choice than ever. In addition to a 4.0L V6 and old top engine, the 4.7L i-Force V8; the Tundra packs a brand-new 5.7L V8. Specific numbers are not known but Toyota has states it will exceed 300hp that will be mated with a 6-speed transmission.

Another problem that plagued the previous trucks was that many felt that they had the styling of older Fords. The previous Tundra’s interior was criticized by some of having the interior of the previous generation F-150. You’d be hard pressed to find a copied styling element with the new Tundra. The “yin-and-yang” interior especially is very unique. In fact, Toyota tried so hard and to make the Tundra look original, that it borders on looking cartoonish, quite frankly. At it stands, though I think they pulled it off decently.

The Next Level

If there’s any real indication that Toyota isn’t messing about with the new Tundra, it would be the new San Antonio, Texas plant built for the new Tundra in which they invested $800 million. Also, it has become common knowledge that Toyota (as well as Nissan) plans on building a heavy-duty version of the Tundra. It was reported a little while back that Toyota was in talks with diesel-engine maker Cummins about producing a V8 diesel engine.

Variance’s Verdict

So will the new Tundra set the full-size pickup world on fire? Well, I certainly think it will take a larger piece of the pie than the previous Tundra did but the next Silverado and Sierra are around the corner and judging by the newest spyshots (and the already unveiled Avalanche), Toyota can expect GM won’t be giving up it’s market share without a bloody, knock-down, drag-out, boisterous, violent fight. (Have you seen the new HD GM trucks? Damn, those are some big-ass trucks...) Also in 2007, Nissan’s and Ford’s full-sizers, the Titan and F-150, are due to be refreshed and they both will likely see (at least) power upgrades.

Grab some popcorn, guys. This’ll be a good one.

Looks like strike three!!

[Shantanu]

I think it will be competetive but not class leading. It will probably eat the Nissan Titan alive. I just don't know if there is room on the market for two Japanese full size trucks.

[Coach]

I'm old enough to remember many of these same arguments in the 60's when Toyota & Nissan (Datsun) first came to America. There was just no way these cummy Japanese imports were ever going to make it here. But look where we are now in the automotive industry. Toyota has a strong possibility to be the #1 auto manufacturer in the world knocking off GM's 70 year reign.

As far as I can see, & I'm no expert (go ahead & flame me), the two major areas that got their foothold was reliability & economical to operate. Throw in a major gas crisis in the 70's and, well, you know pretty much the rest of the story.

The perception of reliability is still very strong for Japanese vehicles & that will carry over into their trucks. Don't think Americans won't buy these because...."you fill in the blank". Toyota & Nissan will continue to build a slow but strong following for these new segment pick ups so you'd better take them seriously.

The good news for consumers is the quality of all pick ups will improve $ the pricing will come down. And that is good news for us all.

[ellives]

So am I old enough to remember "YoYo's" (as one of my college buddies used to call Toyotas) coming in. The reason the Japs got a foothold was because Detroit was willing to cede the bottom of the marketplace to those 'lost cost' providers. True the gas crisis helped push things along and the quality issues didn't help but in the end it all added up to not paying attention to the marketplace. All of a sudden when gas was expensive the whole marketplace moved to smaller cars (the market Detroit abandoned) and the Japs had the foothold they needed. (Does this scenario sound familiar? Ahem... gas prices spiking up... ahem... everybody moving to more efficient vehicles.)

From there the Japs have eaten Detroit from the bottom up. They've also used a simple rule: (strikingly similar to another American corporation - GE) Be #1 or #2 in a segment or don't bother. They've waited patiently making money on a very small number of products and then making the leap up to the next product line when the time is right, slowly and steadily with decent, reliable products.

The thing I find amusing when I visited toyotanation.com earlier tonight (my first time over there) is how ignorant most posters are over there. Most indicate they're from somewhere in the US - I saw locations all over the US - and most just aren't acknowledging the fact that if GM and Ford were to fail, the ripples throughout the US economy would plunge the country into a depression (yes I said depression) that would rival the 1929 stock crash. Unemployment would shoot through the roof and a good percentage of them would be out of work too because the number of Americans capable of buying their Toyotas would plunge.

Personally I don't give a $h! what happens to Detroit because if and when the perfect storm of the failure of the US auto industry and the default of the US government on their debts happens I'll leave the country and watch these same fools cry about the jobs they had. I have enough assets in enough places that I'll survive nicely in Europe some place. They'll have their Tundras to live in anyways right?

I'm old enough to remember many of these same arguments in the 60's when Toyota & Nissan (Datsun) first came to America. There was just no way these cummy Japanese imports were ever going to make it here. But look where we are now in the automotive industry. Toyota has a strong possibility to be the #1 auto manufacturer in the world knocking off GM's 70 year reign.

As far as I can see, & I'm no expert (go ahead & flame me), the two major areas that got their foothold was reliability & economical to operate. Throw in a major gas crisis in the 70's and, well, you know pretty much the rest of the story.

The perception of reliability is still very strong for Japanese vehicles & that will carry over into their trucks. Don't think Americans won't buy these because...."you fill in the blank". Toyota & Nissan will continue to build a slow but strong following for these new segment pick ups so you'd better take them seriously.

The good news for consumers is the quality of all pick ups will improve $ the pricing will come down. And that is good news for us all.

[Variance]

As for the Tundra, it's far from a failure or even "strike 2" (and I see the T100 as a "foul tip" anyway). The Tundra is full-sized, even before the addition of the Double Cab. Toyota was "the first true" Japanese branded full-sized pickup in the US.

Toyota's made a few missteps along the way (adding the four-cylinder to the T100 when it obviously needed MORE power), but each step worked well to prepare the American market for a Toyota full-sized pickup. Where the first generation Tundra was a solid single (using your baseball metaphor), the new Tundra is a solid extra base hit.

I see the current Tundra as a "Strike 2" as far as it not being taken seriously as a full-size by many truck guys. Compared to it's domestic competitiors, it is smaller and slightly less capable in most aspects. I will give it that it does have good payload and standard towing numbers but I just have a feeling Toyota could've tried harder than they did with the first Tundra.

The new Tundra will likely be a solid entry but I'm still confident GM isn't going the take it lightly and will equally impress with the new Silverado and Sierra.

[Hudson]

I think it will be competetive but not class leading.  It will probably eat the Nissan Titan alive.  I just don't know if there is room on the market for two Japanese full size trucks.

There once was room enough for more than five domestics (1970s had Chevy, GMC, Ford, Dodge, Jeep, and International, for example), so why can't five full-sized pickups (Japanese-brand or not) survive in this (larger) market?

[Hudson]

I see the current Tundra as a "Strike 2" as far as it not being taken seriously as a full-size by many truck guys. Compared to it's domestic competitiors, it is smaller and slightly less capable in most aspects. I will give it that it does have good payload and standard towing numbers but I just have a feeling Toyota could've tried harder than they did with the first Tundra.

The new Tundra will likely be a solid entry but I'm still confident GM isn't going the take it lightly and will equally impress with the new Silverado and Sierra.

Okay...so it's your VIEW of the full-sized pickup market that makes it a strike. Viewing the full-sized market as being only for commercial uses is too narrow. When you sell over 3 million full-sized pickups in the US a year, the market is more diversified than just being for "truck guys." There are fragments that open up niches for "urban cowboys" and suburban guys who "think" they need a big pickup (mostly for image). I've seen Tundras and Titans used in commercial applications, but they're not aiming at it.

Toyota has found a nice, fairly large (and growing) niche for its trucks. I can't find an honest way to count the Tundra as anything but a success. It sells...it makes money...it's being built at the plant's capacity. Sounds like a winner to me.

The new model will continue and improve upon the success of the Tundra.

[turbo200]

Okay...so it's your VIEW of the full-sized pickup market that makes it a strike. Viewing the full-sized market as being only for commercial uses is too narrow. When you sell over 3 million full-sized pickups in the US a year, the market is more diversified than just being for "truck guys." There are fragments that open up niches for "urban cowboys" and suburban guys who "think" they need a big pickup (mostly for image). I've seen Tundras and Titans used in commercial applications, but they're not aiming at it.

Toyota has found a nice, fairly large (and growing) niche for its trucks. I can't find an honest way to count the Tundra as anything but a success. It sells...it makes money...it's being built at the plant's capacity. Sounds like a winner to me.

The new model will continue and improve upon the success of the Tundra.

when it's selling at 150k units, has excellent resale value, and a loyal fanbase, it can mean only one thing, it will continue to expand that base as word of mouth spreads. It's a great success even with those sales figures, and the new model will improve upon it. The Tundra is definitely a suburban truck for those seeking a bit more refinement and elegance [muted, subdued, classy exterior design]...

[Variance]

Okay...so it's your VIEW of the full-sized pickup market that makes it a strike.

Well, this is an editorial. :AH-HA_wink:

Viewing the full-sized market as being only for commercial uses is too narrow. When you sell over 3 million full-sized pickups in the US a year, the market is more diversified than just being for "truck guys." There are fragments that open up niches for "urban cowboys" and suburban guys who "think" they need a big pickup (mostly for image). I've seen Tundras and Titans used in commercial applications, but they're not aiming at it.

I'm aware the market dosen't consist of purely "truck guys" but I believe the majority of truck buyers buy them with the intent to do actual work from time to time (and I wasn't referring to commercial work in particular).

Nissan and Toyota most certainly are aiming for some of the commercial market, though. Every Titan commercial showcases the truck's hauling and towing ability as well as its ulitarian accessories and I can remember the Tundra's commercials set in construction zones very clearly. That may not be the core market to them but they certainly aren't ignoring it.

Toyota has found a nice, fairly large (and growing) niche for its trucks. I can't find an honest way to count the Tundra as anything but a success. It sells...it makes money...it's being built at the plant's capacity. Sounds like a winner to me.

Well, when you put it like that, I can't say I disagree. However, I still think the current Tundra is slightly lacking in comparison to its competition.

The new model will continue and improve upon the success of the Tundra.

That may be but the question is how will it compare to future competition (with GM being the immediate concern)?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, this is an editorial. :AH-HA_wink:

I'm aware the market dosen't consist of purely "truck guys" but I believe the majority of truck buyers buy them with the intent to do actual work from time to time (and I wasn't referring to commercial work in particular).

And trucks need to have a strong do anything image, even if they will never be used that way. Hummers are rarely used offroad, but I doubt they would be as hot as they are if they were soft, melted, and incapable.

[ponchoman49]

Strike 3 in my book. Toyota just can't seem to style anything the way I like and the dash is just peculiar. The grille is just a garish cartoonish huge rip off of what Dodge is doing with it's larger than life look and the rear rips off the current Silverado. However the North American buying public probably won't see it that way. Becuase it has the word Toyota on it people will buy it in droves.

[intrigued]

I see the tundra taking some titan sales and maybe some dodge sales as they are the least competitve domestics, I see GMS gmt900 taking sales to and I dont think gm will lose any market share in pickups.

[sciguy_0504]

LOL.

[Hudson]

I'm aware the market dosen't consist of purely "truck guys" but I believe the majority of truck buyers buy them with the intent to do actual work from time to time (and I wasn't referring to commercial work in particular).

Nissan and Toyota most certainly are aiming for some of the commercial market, though. Every Titan commercial showcases the truck's hauling and towing ability as well as its ulitarian accessories and I can remember the Tundra's commercials set in construction zones very clearly. That may not be the core market to them but they certainly aren't ignoring it.

No, they're not ignoring it. But the commercials aren't necessarily aiming at it either. You need that rugged IMAGE to sell trucks like this. By showing these trucks in that setting, it helps promote the image. Would there be as large of a demand for these trucks if they showed them how they're actually used...commuting to the office...driving to the grocery store....picking up a bag or two of mulch for the flower bed? I doubt it.

Well, when you put it like that, I can't say I disagree. However, I still think the current Tundra is slightly lacking in comparison to its competition.

That may be but the question is how will it compare to future competition (with GM being the immediate concern)?

I understand your editorialized perspective. But the fact remains that the Tundra (and to a lesser extent the Titan) are aimed at full-sized truck intenders who don't necessarily need a truck. It's like a Silverado or F150 with leather seats...are these aimed at people who use these trucks for work? If the full-sized truck market were so homogenous that all of them were used strictly for work, there'd be more trucks offered with three-seat benches...vinyl covered with no carpeting for easier cleanout. Instead, these trucks are offered with nearly every luxury option you can find on a Cadillac or Lincoln (even without the Cadillac and Lincoln pickups).

The new Silverado will not expand its market significantly and will, at best, hold its own. Toyota and Nissan, on the other hand, will grow in their next versions....both in market share and sales. That, to me, makes them hits not strikes.

[avro206]

I would like nothing more than see the new Tundra to bomb in the marketplace.  It would be great to see GM and Ford come out with best in class products that put Toyota to shame.    I would love to see Toyota's new plant in Texas scaled back over time because lack of demand for the Tundra.  If this does not happen, then the truck market will slowly become like the car market is today and GM and Ford will continue to shrink.

Mark

My thoughts exactly. Full sized trucks are the last refuge from Japan INC.

While they have done very well over the past 20-30 years, they don't understand the fullsized truck market. Fullsized truck owners are very loyal too.

[Hudson]

...they don't understand the fullsized truck market. Fullsized truck owners are very loyal too.

A misconception I got caugh in as well. Full-sized truck buyers are not homogenous. With the growth in the marketplace over the past 10 years or more, many of these buyers came from owning Toyota and Honda and Nissan CARS, not trucks. These buyers are not that brand loyal.

Proof of this is the fact that Toyota and Nissan sold 200,000 full-sized pickups last year. In 2007, this number should reach closer to 400,000. Anyone not giving the Japanese credit for understanding the full-sized truck market risks being run over. Let's hope that the Big3 aren't as complacent.

[evok]

Being objective, the only thing that is a certain is that the 08 Tundra is a leap ahead of the vehicle it is replacing. It will in the end take on the big three head on in most of the fullsize truck segments with a competent vehicle based upon size mix configurations, powertrain offerings, and specifications.

Does that guarantee that the Toyota will increase market share in the segment. No. Just because Toyota has the capacity to produce 300k vehicles a year, does not mean there is a demand for the product at or above current sales rates.

The current Tundra buyers might not migrate to the new Tundra because it is such a quatum leap from the previous tweeny. That is a big unanswered question without a answer.

The Camry, Accord built a loyal following at a time in the US market where the big three did not have vehicles that competed directly with the Japanese offereings. That is not the case in the fullsize truck market.

In the fullsize pu market, the big three do have a loyal following and a strong reputation for reliability and durability as well as image.

With uncertain fuel prices and instability in the the mid east, the decretionary fullsize pu purchase might be questionable.

So with that, the success of the Tundra is not a certainty. Does it take on the big three head on, yes, but that does not mean success. Even from Toyota.

[Flybrian]

You know what I mean. Words well spoken.

[razoredge]

I'd be worried, GMC/Chevy, Ford and Dodge.....now they have to stay ahead of this thing and once again we have the American economy versus the rest of the world economy so its going to be near impossible to out wit the Japs and the endless hoard of money we have provided for them.........but thats right.......their American now anyhow.........so its OK

Someone locally has one of those new Titans is it ? Nissan, great big chrome grill, I must confess looks really good but it hurts like hell....this is the land of GM, Ford and Dodge trucks, now everything is changed. We now, as of this week, have our first foreign owned gas station/convieniant store.........in a two station town..........damn ! This location was a privately owned business up to about 5 years ago, then it went "chain", now the chain changed and ......well ? I now go elsewhere, time to burn that check cashing card.

Yep, Id be worried alright

tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc

[AmericanMuscle]

This makes me absolutely sick All this truck says to me is Dodge Ram, looks just like it. If I ever come to see one on the road I'm just going to take a bat to it. Couldn't they think of something else? It looks like they just combined an F150 and a Dodge Ram and slapped their stupid name onto it. What a Frankenstein truck piece of garbage, Toyota is still gonna be the bottom rung of the truck market. Think about it, when you think Toyota, does the word POWER ever come to mind? They just made a replica of some of the bigger American trucks and are trying to sell it with their name.

[mkaresh]

In the end the styling will not matter much and the size will only matter a bit. After all, the current Double Cab, which shares little other than powertrains with the regular Tundra, is as large as the domestics. It's about half a foot wider than the regular Tundra, not just longer. (Perceptions haven't quite caught up to this fact.)

The big variable that hardly anyone has mentioned is PRICE. Currently a Tundra costs thousands more than a domestic truck once incentives and discounts are factored in. Toyota has a history of significantly cutting prices when they want to grow sales. This is a major reason the Camry does so well--Toyota has been much more aggressive than Honda with pricing and incentives.

If Toyota follows its Camry pricing strategy with the new Tundra--and investing in the new plant suggests they will--then it will hit 300,000 easily. Contractors are running a business. If they think the Toyota will cost them less in the long run--price and depreciation--then many will eventually go Toyota's way.

[prontostar]

if there's one truck that's in trouble...i think it's the f-150...

gm is turning the corner

ford is getting lost in the crowd