GM sales chief says automaker needs all brands

[buyacargetacheck]

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/060210/autos_gm.html?.v=1

[buyacargetacheck]

LaNeve's statement is understandable but it's also disingenuous. He knows that it's unlikely they have any product or plan in the pipe that's going to stem the loss of market share. The market share loss over the last 20 years averages something like a point a year. So what GM has been doing and is doing isn't working. At the rate this is going Pontiac, Buick and GMC are toast within 10 years, and all the marketing and engineering dollars that are going to PBG in that 10 year period would be better served at Chevrolet and Cadillac. Saab and Saturn should go too because they aren't making money, but they're peanuts compared the the PBG albatross.

Maybe what GM should do is begin duplicating what's unique at Buick and Pontiac (Lucerne and Solstace) and give it to Chevy as the Caprice and "Chevy Whatever." That keeps Hamtramck going in the short-term. Then, stop making future Pontiacs and Buicks unique and start making them straight rebadges of Chevys much the same way GMC trucks are rebadges of Chevy trucks. Eliminate Buick and Pontiac advertising entirely. Let the dealers do with this what they can - straight personal selling and local advertising on the part of the dealer. The upside? GM would save a ton of money and plant the seeds for the future by focusing on new, leading edge Chevy and Cadillac products.

Yes, market share would suffer, but it's going to anyway. At least this way GM can get ahead of the curve without damaging Chevy and Cadillac in the process. Unfortunately, this would mean the ultimate end of Buick, GMC, and Pontiac but without the costly franchise lawsuits.

[ellives]

The brand count issue is debatable (clearly Toyota is successful with a lot less) and having less brands allows you to focus and nurture the ones that remain.

To me LaNeve's comments raise what is more important: what brands can be saved and what do they stand for? This all goes to market perception. Clearly Saab hasn't been marketed with a particular pitch in mind (other than the company was founded by aerospace engineers. Who cares about that?)

Many of the GM brands have been damaged and I'm not convinced they can be repaired in time. Buick can't because only old people drive them and they'll evenutally die off and Pontiac less so but their issue is all about product (if you buy the theme that "Pontiac is excitement.") Other than the Solstice (which people aren't familiar with) what product do they have? A Torrent? How is a mini-van "excitement?"

I fear the "death by a thousand cuts" that has been bandied about a lot. Being in the hi-tech business for so long I've see it lots of times. DEC comes immediately to mind. Management would rather make minor recipe changes than the wholesale restructuring required to save the ship from sinking. The problem becomes one of "avoiding the stench of death." The quality employees flee to other companies in fear of losing their jobs, leaving behind the less capable and less desirable employees. The quality customers flee to other companies for fear of losing their warranty cover and ability to resell the product. Don't forget how dealers sold against Oldsmobile: "They're going out of business and you won't be able to an Olds serviced so you should buy my product."

LaNeve's statement is understandable but it's also disingenuous.  He knows that it's unlikely they have any product or plan in the pipe that's going to stem the loss of market share.  The market share loss over the last 20 years averages something like a point a year.  So what GM has been doing and is doing isn't working.  At the rate this is going Pontiac, Buick and GMC are toast within 10 years, and all the marketing and engineering dollars that are going to PBG in that 10 year period would be better served at Chevrolet and Cadillac.  Saab and Saturn should go too because they aren't making money, but they're peanuts compared the the PBG albatross.

Maybe what GM should do is begin duplicating what's unique at Buick and Pontiac (Lucerne and Solstace) and give it to Chevy as the Caprice and "Chevy Whatever."  That keeps Hamtramck going in the short-term.  Then, stop making future Pontiacs and Buicks unique and start making them straight rebadges of Chevys much the same way GMC trucks are rebadges of Chevy trucks.  Eliminate Buick and Pontiac advertising entirely.  Let the dealers do with this what they can - straight personal selling and local advertising on the part of the dealer.  The upside?  GM would save a ton of money and plant the seeds for the future by focusing on new, leading edge Chevy and Cadillac products.

Yes, market share would suffer, but it's going to anyway.  At least this way GM can get ahead of the curve without damaging Chevy and Cadillac in the process.  Unfortunately, this would mean the ultimate end of Buick, GMC, and Pontiac but without the costly franchise lawsuits.

[Drew Dowdell]

The brand count issue is debatable (clearly Toyota is successful with a lot less) and having less brands allows you to focus and nurture the ones that remain.

Toyota isn't sucessful becauseit has less brands, it's sucessful in spite of having less brands.

GM's brands <including Olds>, managed properly, would be very sucessful.

The difference is this. For the 300k Camrys Toyota sells, 10 people are actually excited to be purchasing one. For the 50k Grand Prixs that Pontiac sells retail, 30k of them are actually excited to be buying one.

People buy Toyotas the way they buy refridgerators.... reliable, efficient, unobtrusive.

People buy Pontiacs the way they pick out a wife.... fun, great to be around, and dances well.

Right now, the perception is you can't be fun and reliable/high quaility at the same time.

[balthazar]

>>"Pontiac, Buick and GMC are toast within 10 years, and all the marketing and engineering dollars that are going to PBG in that 10 year period would be better served at Chevrolet and Cadillac."<<

Tho it pains me to say so and I do not advocate it in the most minute sense, I can see an argument for Pontiac & Buick... but to lump GMC in with that is idiotic. Minimal development funds for a wildly profitable & high volume marque is dream-come-true business case. Absolute dumbfounding stupidity for GM to consider discontinuing GMC- no basis for it whatsoever. Case closed- stop bringing it up.

>>"Many of the GM brands have been damaged and I'm not convinced they can be repaired in time. Buick can't because only old people drive them and they'll evenutally die off and Pontiac less so but their issue is all about product (if you buy the theme that "Pontiac is excitement.") Other than the Solstice (which people aren't familiar with) what product do they have? A Torrent? How is a mini-van "excitement?""<<

Do you know how long the media has been saying 'Buick's buyer base is dying off'??? Try 30 years. Do you know what the fastest increasing consumer demographic is? Senior citizens.

Once you factor in reduced model offerings, Buick has remained fairly consistant, esp in the face of ever-increasing competition. Keep offering very high quality, well-engineered, conservative product and you maintain that. Offer increased style & performance (Enclave, Lucerne) and you increase that- it's really quite simple.

Why would you omit mention of the GTO at the very least when claiming 'what other product do they have'???? What of the upcoming G6 GTP or the GP GTP? GP Comp G was mopping up it competition in independant performance testing- there's no excitement there? Is a slower, sloppier maxima exciting then?

If your going to make a point, for crap's sake make an accurate one as opposed to a broad sweeping generalization that undermines your own theory.

[Northstar]

I think HUMMER is okay to keep around because it's profitable most likely, but Saab has done nothing but bleed red ink.

[Flybrian]

Do you know how long the media has been saying 'Buick's buyer base is dying off'??? Try 30 years. Do you know what the fastest increasing consumer demographic is? Senior citizens.

Once you factor in reduced model offerings, Buick has remained fairly consistant, esp in the face of ever-increasing competition. Keep offering very high quality, well-engineered, conservative product and you maintain that. Offer increased style & performance (Enclave, Lucerne) and you increase that- it's really quite simple.

Also consider the fact that for a few years, the entire Buick lineup consisted of two platforms spawning four sedans, one of which being overpriced and two of the others being virtually the same vehicle with drivetrain and minor cosmetic differences.

If it didn't die then, why would it die now?

This is almost like a bad SNL skit. Top story tonight: Buick Motor Division is still...not dead.

[PontiacTechNJ]

GMC - the only truck with 2 sets of engineers - Chevy does the truck - GMC does the emblems and hubcaps .

Smokey Yunick 1970

[enzl]

>>"Pontiac, Buick and GMC are toast within 10 years, and all the marketing and engineering dollars that are going to PBG in that 10 year period would be better served at Chevrolet and Cadillac."<<

Tho it pains me to say so and I do not advocate it in the most minute sense, I can see an argument for Pontiac & Buick... but to lump GMC in with that is idiotic. Minimal development funds for a wildly profitable & high volume marque is dream-come-true business case. Absolute dumbfounding stupidity for GM to consider discontinuing GMC- no basis for it whatsoever. Case closed- stop bringing it up.

>>"Many of the GM brands have been damaged and I'm not convinced they can be repaired in time. Buick can't because only old people drive them and they'll evenutally die off and Pontiac less so but their issue is all about product (if you buy the theme that "Pontiac is excitement.") Other than the Solstice (which people aren't familiar with) what product do they have? A Torrent? How is a mini-van "excitement?""<<

Do you know how long the media has been saying 'Buick's buyer base is dying off'??? Try 30 years. Do you know what the fastest increasing consumer demographic is? Senior citizens.

Once you factor in reduced model offerings, Buick has remained fairly consistant, esp in the face of ever-increasing competition. Keep offering very high quality, well-engineered, conservative product and you maintain that. Offer increased style & performance (Enclave, Lucerne) and you increase that- it's really quite simple.

Why would you omit mention of the GTO at the very least when claiming 'what other product do they have'???? What of the upcoming G6 GTP or the GP GTP? GP Comp G was mopping up it competition in independant performance testing- there's no excitement there? Is a slower, sloppier maxima exciting then?

If your going to make a point, for crap's sake make an accurate one as opposed to a broad sweeping generalization that undermines your own theory.

You had me agreeing 100%, until the last two paragraphs.....

1.The GTO, while a great product, has not been a 'success' by most accounts.

2. Who's anxiously waiting for a G6 GTP? It'll have a rebate on the hood upon arrival to dealerships...

3. The GP won what? Can you reference or link a comparo test the GP has won...its a fleet car with a number of loyal fans outside of Enterprise...

4. Friendly Suggestion-If you're going to make a point of someone else making a point...you should be accurate...or at least realistic...

[Drew Dowdell]

3. The GP won what? Can you reference or link a comparo test the GP has won...its a fleet car with a number of loyal fans outside of Enterprise...

There were a pair of reviewers that panned the handling of the GP Comp-G. It apparently pissed off Lutz enough that he invited the reviewers to race him. They could pick any car in the GP's segmant they wanted, while he drove a Comp-G. One of the reviewers picked a Maxima.

Lutz wiped the floor with it.

[ellives]

There were a pair of reviewers that panned the handling of the GP Comp-G. It apparently pissed off Lutz enough that he invited the reviewers to race him. They could pick any car in the GP's segmant they wanted, while he drove a Comp-G. One of the reviewers picked a Maxima.

Lutz wiped the floor with it.

Good for him!

[ellives]

1. You can sell just as many ADDITIONAL Chevy trucks instead of the GMC "version" and get even more good brand exposure for Chevy so why spend any more "minimal development funds?" This would be an easy and benign transition. Your theory goes to the idea of not telling the consumer that GMC is the same thing as Chevy because they're too stupid to figure it out themselves. Pure rubbish. Truck buyers ain't that dumb.

2. They've also been saying Cadillac buyers are dying off too for 30 years. Guess what? They are! Look at how many are buying Lexus now. Haven't you noticed that the Toyota Avalon has become the new Buick? The baby boomers are now hitting "old people" status so they're just buying bigger Toyotas.

Surely you jest when you ask about the GTO? When I say "they have" I mean "something they have that sells in volume." Volume is what pays the overhead and we know GM is all about overhead. I don't see something that's overpriced and sells 10K units a year as anything to get excited about. This said, I think the GTO is a decent car but I'm not going to plunk down the kind of money they want for it.

>>"Pontiac, Buick and GMC are toast within 10 years, and all the marketing and engineering dollars that are going to PBG in that 10 year period would be better served at Chevrolet and Cadillac."<<

Tho it pains me to say so and I do not advocate it in the most minute sense, I can see an argument for Pontiac & Buick... but to lump GMC in with that is idiotic. Minimal development funds for a wildly profitable & high volume marque is dream-come-true business case. Absolute dumbfounding stupidity for GM to consider discontinuing GMC- no basis for it whatsoever. Case closed- stop bringing it up.

>>"Many of the GM brands have been damaged and I'm not convinced they can be repaired in time. Buick can't because only old people drive them and they'll evenutally die off and Pontiac less so but their issue is all about product (if you buy the theme that "Pontiac is excitement.") Other than the Solstice (which people aren't familiar with) what product do they have? A Torrent? How is a mini-van "excitement?""<<

Do you know how long the media has been saying 'Buick's buyer base is dying off'??? Try 30 years. Do you know what the fastest increasing consumer demographic is? Senior citizens.

Once you factor in reduced model offerings, Buick has remained fairly consistant, esp in the face of ever-increasing competition. Keep offering very high quality, well-engineered, conservative product and you maintain that. Offer increased style & performance (Enclave, Lucerne) and you increase that- it's really quite simple.

Why would you omit mention of the GTO at the very least when claiming 'what other product do they have'???? What of the upcoming G6 GTP or the GP GTP? GP Comp G was mopping up it competition in independant performance testing- there's no excitement there? Is a slower, sloppier maxima exciting then?

If your going to make a point, for crap's sake make an accurate one as opposed to a broad sweeping generalization that undermines your own theory.

[buyacargetacheck]

LaNeve goes on to say that GM plans to have a new 9-5, 9-3, and 2 crossovers based on each one. Sounds good. But how many extra sales are you gonna get? 30,000 maybe? For the money spent, they should sell of the damn thing (and other things like uniqueness for Pontiac and Buick) and start getting Chevrolet and Cadillac on a 3 or 4 year model cycle.

[balthazar]

enzl= >>"1.The GTO, while a great product, has not been a 'success' by most accounts.

Are you talking about sales? Because we were talking about 'excitement'. No one can criticize the GTO's overall performance or specs. So here you do agree: 'it's a great product'.

2. Who's anxiously waiting for a G6 GTP? It'll have a rebate on the hood upon arrival to dealerships...

Maybe, maybe not. Have to see 'what it does' first.

3. The GP won what? Can you reference or link a comparo test the GP has won...its a fleet car with a number of loyal fans outside of Enterprise...

GP is a "fleet car" eh? Wonder when my wife should've returned hers; we've been 'renting' it for about 14 months.....

Independant testing orchestrated by Pro Formance (under the sanction of the SCCA) tested an '04 GP CompG against 12 other FWD 'performance' sedans, where the GP scored the highest points in the Performance & Handling Index.

It beat out the audi a6 in 5 tests, beat the Jag S-type in 4 out of 5. Also beat the bmw 330i in both acceleration and road course lap time, posting .872g figures. Comp G finished overall second (barely) only to the bmw 330i, besting the other 11 competitors.

I cannot find a direct link to anything, in the past actual comparison charts were online. Here's a biased-against source talking about it, tho:

http://www.bimmerwerkz.com/forum/bimmer-ta...SCCA+Grand+Prix

Here's TCC referencing it:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Re...S180.A5833.html

BTW-I don't think any rental cars come with MagnaSteer II, StabiliTrack Sport, superchargers or TAPshift features.

4. Friendly Suggestion-If you're going to make a point of someone else making a point...you should be accurate...or at least realistic...

Thanks; I was.

Edited February 11, 2006 by balthazar

[balthazar]

ellives= >>"1. You can sell just as many ADDITIONAL Chevy trucks instead of the GMC "version" and get even more good brand exposure for Chevy so why spend any more "minimal development funds?" This would be an easy and benign transition. Your theory goes to the idea of not telling the consumer that GMC is the same thing as Chevy because they're too stupid to figure it out themselves. Pure rubbish. Truck buyers ain't that dumb.

But they are that particular. Such a move might gain Chevy 50% of GMC's customers- truck buyers are a loyal lot and a great quantity prefer one over the other to the point of refusal. But how can you justify shutting down a division that sells over 550,00 units annually all at a profit? Lemmee guess; you would advocate putting the money into saab instead- selling less than 40K units all at a loss. GMC makes near class-leading product... sabb never has.

2. They've also been saying Cadillac buyers are dying off too for 30 years. Guess what? They are! Look at how many are buying Lexus now. Haven't you noticed that the Toyota Avalon has become the new Buick? The baby boomers are now hitting "old people" status so they're just buying bigger Toyotas.

Sorry- I've very seldom if ever encountered that sentiment as applied to Cadillac- it's always been the hallmark of Buick criticism. WRT sales- go look up Cadillac's sales since '98- you will be shocked. They're not.

BTW- the avalon has repeatedly failed to conquer it's prime rival in sales after numerous years and generations: the better-built Buick LeSabre. By all accounts the Lucerne is many times what the LeSabre was. Will the gap narrow..... or widen?

Surely you jest when you ask about the GTO? When I say "they have" I mean "something they have that sells in volume." Volume is what pays the overhead and we know GM is all about overhead. I don't see something that's overpriced and sells 10K units a year as anything to get excited about. This said, I think the GTO is a decent car but I'm not going to plunk down the kind of money they want for it.

You may not care for it, but many many more than merely 10K buyers have signed the bottom line for a GTO.

As for sales- make up your mind: you were talking about "excitement"... only a beancounter gets excited about sales numbers. Sales volumes are another discussion. Stand still and debate.

[Drew Dowdell]

1. You can sell just as many ADDITIONAL Chevy trucks instead of the GMC "version" and get even more good brand exposure for Chevy so why spend any more "minimal development funds?" This would be an easy and benign transition. Your theory goes to the idea of not telling the consumer that GMC is the same thing as Chevy because they're too stupid to figure it out themselves.  Pure rubbish. Truck buyers ain't that dumb.

If that were the case, why hasn't GMC withered away and died yet?

2. They've also been saying Cadillac buyers are dying off too for 30 years. Guess what? They are! Look at how many are buying Lexus now. Haven't you noticed that the Toyota Avalon has become the new Buick? The baby boomers are now hitting "old people" status so they're just buying bigger Toyotas.

Strangely enough, Cadillac is one of the few brands that has completely changed their buyer demographic sucessfully. In 1996 Cadillac was totally for the 70's set. Today it's younger, wealthier people. Rappers and underweight white actresses love the Escalade. I'm 27 and got my CTS when I was 25.

This is something Toyota HASN'T been able to do... hence the existence of Scion.

Surely you jest when you ask about the GTO? When I say "they have" I mean "something they have that sells in volume." Volume is what pays the overhead and we know GM is all about overhead. I don't see something that's overpriced and sells 10K units a year as anything to get excited about. This said, I think the GTO is a decent car but I'm not going to plunk down the kind of money they want for it.

You forget that this *was* a volume vehicle for GM. It cost extremely little for GM to tool up for this because it's just a Holden Monaro. They just had to swap a few badges, swap the driver side, and ship it over. Even at the low sales numbers of the GTO, they probably still made money on it because the more plebian models were sold with reasonable sucess in Australia.

[enzl]

enzl= >>"1.The GTO, while a great product, has not been a 'success' by most accounts.

Are you talking about sales? Because we were talking about 'excitement'. No one can criticize the GTO's overall performance or specs. So here you do agree: 'it's a great product'.

2. Who's anxiously waiting for a G6 GTP? It'll have a rebate on the hood upon arrival to dealerships...

Maybe, maybe not. Have to see 'what it does' first.

3. The GP won what? Can you reference or link a comparo test the GP has won...its a fleet car with a number of loyal fans outside of Enterprise...

GP is a "fleet car" eh? Wonder when my wife should've returned hers; we've been 'renting' it for about 14 months.....

Independant testing orchestrated by Pro Formance (under the sanction of the SCCA) tested an '04 GP CompG against 12 other FWD 'performance' sedans, where the GP scored the highest points in the Performance & Handling Index.

It beat out the audi a6 in 5 tests, beat the Jag S-type in 4 out of 5. Also beat the bmw 330i in both acceleration and road course lap time, posting .872g figures. Comp G finished overall second (barely) only to the bmw 330i, besting the other 11 competitors.

I cannot find a direct link to anything, in the past actual comparison charts were online. Here's a biased-against source talking about it, tho:

http://www.bimmerwerkz.com/forum/bimmer-ta...SCCA+Grand+Prix

Here's TCC referencing it:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Re...S180.A5833.html

BTW-I don't think any rental cars come with MagnaSteer II, StabiliTrack Sport, superchargers or TAPshift features.

4. Friendly Suggestion-If you're going to make a point of someone else making a point...you should be accurate...or at least realistic...

Thanks; I was.

For the GTO, I think it was a marketplace failure & didn't really provide alot of 'excitement' despite its overall excellence. I believe it was mispriced and mismarketed, but that's my take.

The g6 GTP is not going to set the market afire at 26-30k....it needs a $2k haircut off the top, IMO.

A huge portion of GP sales are fleet...the Comp G & its successor couldn't be more than 10% of total sales...I just hope you don't have to trade-in that badboy...they lose 50% in about 18 months...thats scary stuff.

As a daily driver, I'm sure its great (I've driven mostly the rental grade GP's, so I can't fully comment), but Pontiac's hopes of the GP as a BMW/Audi fighter are hopeful at best (a fully loaded GP V8's gotta be $32-35, right? Hand me the 325/a4 keys, please.

I'll give you that the raw numbers are impressive for the GP....I'm just not sure its an example of 'best effort' from the General.

(I honestly didn't know you owned one...I wasn't trying to insult you...(this time : )

[Drew Dowdell]

For the GTO, I think it was a marketplace failure & didn't really provide alot of 'excitement' despite its overall excellence. I believe it was mispriced and mismarketed, but that's my take.

The g6 GTP is not going to set the market afire at 26-30k....it needs a $2k haircut off the top, IMO.

A huge portion of GP sales are fleet...the Comp G & its successor couldn't be more than 10% of total sales...I just hope you don't have to trade-in that badboy...they lose 50% in about 18 months...thats scary stuff.

As a daily driver, I'm sure its great (I've driven mostly the rental grade GP's, so I can't fully comment), but Pontiac's hopes of the GP as a BMW/Audi fighter are hopeful at best (a fully loaded GP V8's gotta be $32-35, right? Hand me the 325/a4 keys, please.

I'll give you that the raw numbers are impressive for the GP....I'm just not sure its an example of 'best effort' from the General.

(I honestly didn't know you owned one...I wasn't trying to insult you...(this time : )

Absolutely fully loaded GPV8... including engine block heater is 29,951 on CarsDirect.com. Add in potential GM card rebate <you only have to have *some* points to be eligable for the $2000 "top off" rebate> and you're in a loaded V8 GP for 27k. An absolute BASE 325 is 30,928 on CarsDirect.... try finding one on the lot. An absolute base A4 is 28k, but then you're saddled with an un-fun 4-cylinder in a heavy car... and you don't even get Quattro...

So yeah... the GP V8 seems like a pretty sweet deal.

[enzl]

Absolutely fully loaded GPV8... including engine block heater is 29,951 on CarsDirect.com. Add in potential GM card rebate <you only have to have *some* points to be eligable for the $2000 "top off" rebate> and you're in a loaded V8 GP for 27k.  An absolute BASE 325 is 30,928 on CarsDirect.... try finding one on the lot. An absolute base A4 is 28k, but then you're saddled with an un-fun 4-cylinder in a heavy car... and you don't even get Quattro...

So yeah... the GP V8 seems like a pretty sweet deal.

A GXP, with most options, is over $32,500 on Pontiac.com...leasing (how a majority of BMW/A4 get sold) evens the playing field, since the residual value is, conservatively, 15 points higher after 3 years...which, on a $30K vehicle, means a comprably equipped 3 or A4 could be about the same price via lease...)

I wouldn't use the possibility of $5k in incentives (a 20% discount!) as a selling/bragging point....that's not what puts fannies in the seats...

[buyacargetacheck]

>>"Pontiac, Buick and GMC are toast within 10 years, and all the marketing and engineering dollars that are going to PBG in that 10 year period would be better served at Chevrolet and Cadillac."<<

Tho it pains me to say so and I do not advocate it in the most minute sense, I can see an argument for Pontiac & Buick... but to lump GMC in with that is idiotic. Minimal development funds for a wildly profitable & high volume marque is dream-come-true business case. Absolute dumbfounding stupidity for GM to consider discontinuing GMC- no basis for it whatsoever. Case closed- stop bringing it up.

No, you're correct regarding GMC - in the short-term. But the only reason GMC exists is to historically give Pontiac and Buick dealers a truck to sell. The raison d'etre for GMC will vanish once Buick and Pontiac are gone. Within 10 years GMC will also be under pressure itself as Toyota WILL do well in the full-sized truck market. You can bank on it.

So, yes keep GMC around as long as there is a market for it and the dollars flow in. After that, finis. In the meantime, start badge-engineering Pontiacs and Buicks until the public gets sick of them.

Edited February 12, 2006 by buyacargetacheck

[Petra]

I think GM's brands could all do a lot better if they were given more freedom, like they used to be back in the '60's, and how Saturn used to be at the start. In my theory, each brand would be given a few basic, common parts (e.g: chassis, engine block) and some simple objectives (e.g: Pontiac would be instructed to focus on horsepower, Buick would be told to devote time to the interior), then leave the rest up for the brands to figure out on their own. This would inspire creativity and and competition, resulting in a better product for the consumer. Also, no brand could be accused of badge engineering another.

Unfortunately, the prospects of this happening are slim to none.

[The O.C.]

Right now, the perception is you can't be fun and reliable/high quaility at the same time.

TOTALLY disagree......you can't make an unjustifiable claim like yours that only "10% of people that buy a Camry aren't excited to buy it."

In any event, I drove a 2003 Mazda6 V6/5-speed for over 50K miles as a company car and had only one problem (recall on the clutch) and other than that, it was reliable, tight, rattle-free, and FUN to drive even at it's 50K mile mark.

[CaddyXLR-V]

No, you're correct regarding GMC - in the short-term.  But the only reason GMC exists is to historically give Pontiac and Buick dealers a truck to sell.  The raison d'etre for GMC will vanish once Buick and Pontiac are gone.  Within 10 years GMC will also be under pressure itself as Toyota WILL do well in the full-sized truck market.  You can bank on it.

So, yes keep GMC around as long as there is a market for it and the dollars flow in.  After that, finis.  In the meantime, start badge-engineering Pontiacs and Buicks until the public gets sick of them.

Thats why GM is in the mess it is in now. The cars should have never been badge engineered. If GM turned into Toyota, which would happen if it were only Chevy Saturn and Cadillac, I would have to start buying from somewhere else. Toyota cant have a sporty large car because of the Avalon. GM can have the Avalon competitor, and a sporty large car, the G8, under Pontiac. You can only fit so many models in one dealership, and Chevy already has alot of models. One size does not fit all. Not everyone is a Camcord buyer. GM's brands, if positioned correctly, would be an asset, not a liability.

[El Scorcho]

No, you're correct regarding GMC - in the short-term.  But the only reason GMC exists is to historically give Pontiac and Buick dealers a truck to sell.  The raison d'etre for GMC will vanish once Buick and Pontiac are gone.  Within 10 years GMC will also be under pressure itself as Toyota WILL do well in the full-sized truck market.  You can bank on it.

Considering how long GMC has been around in its current incarnation (50+ years) and recent surveys indicating that people do in fact look upon GMC as more "professional grade" than Chevy (and that people of greater wealth purchase GMC trucks over even Cadillacs), I'd venture to say GMC does, in fact have a more than short term purpose. (Since when has 50 years been short term, anyway?)

[El Scorcho]

TOTALLY disagree......you can't make an unjustifiable claim like yours that only "10% of people that buy a Camry aren't excited to buy it."

In any event, I drove a 2003 Mazda6 V6/5-speed for over 50K miles as a company car and had only one problem (recall on the clutch) and other than that, it was reliable, tight, rattle-free, and FUN to drive even at it's 50K mile mark.

I agree, but she was speaking on public perception, not reality. Edited February 12, 2006 by El Scorcho

[Drew Dowdell]

TOTALLY disagree......you can't make an unjustifiable claim like yours that only "10% of people that buy a Camry aren't excited to buy it."

In any event, I drove a 2003 Mazda6 V6/5-speed for over 50K miles as a company car and had only one problem (recall on the clutch) and other than that, it was reliable, tight, rattle-free, and FUN to drive even at it's 50K mile mark.

my numbers were made up of course.... but the sentiment is the same. The majority of Camry owners are not passionate about cars. A much higher percentage of Grand Prix owners are. Heck, if the Grand Prix sells only to the Nascar set, my point still stands.

[buyacargetacheck]

Thats why GM is in the mess it is in now. The cars should have never been badge engineered. If GM turned into Toyota, which would happen if it were only Chevy Saturn and Cadillac, I would have to start buying from somewhere else. Toyota cant have a sporty large car because of the Avalon. GM can have the Avalon competitor, and a sporty large car, the G8, under Pontiac. You can only fit so many models in one dealership, and Chevy already has alot of models. One size does not fit all. Not everyone is a Camcord buyer. GM's brands, if positioned correctly, would be an asset, not a liability.

If there was a market for a "sporty large car" Toyota would have one. It would be called the Toyota Avalon SE. Unfortunately, the experience of the Bonneville GXP and Mercury Maurauder tell us there is likely no such market.

This brand religion (Pontiac for the sporty import-intender under 25 with a tatoo, etc) is a fantasy now, but it might have worked had GM gotten serious 25 years ago. Now, the future of Cadillac and Chevrolet are at hand. I want GM to be around a long while. This means ditching the side shows and taking care of the crown jewels. Speaking of crown jewels look at the possible sale of GMAC. Good God folks forget about your fantasy RWD Grand Prix fighting the Camry. Toyota has and is showing the way - one mass brand and one luxury brand with fewer, more efficient number of dealers does the job.

[Flybrian]

If there was a market for a "sporty large car" Toyota would have one.  It would be called the Toyota Avalon SE.  Unfortunately, the experience of the Bonneville GXP and Mercury Maurauder tell us there is likely no such market.

300C and Charger for two. There are others on the large-midsize end of the spectrum that would qualify as well. The Bonneville GXP was a great car at the wrong time and suffered for coming along at the end of the model run. The Maurauder was a tuned-up Crown Vic LX Sport with a trio of extra gauges and lackluster performance. Saying those two cars didn't sell well and using Toyota as a qualifier for the viability of a market isn't an accurate portrayal.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

*** I swear, these people just won't quit until they see a little more of GM destroyed will they?***

"In spite of all the great advice we have been getting and I am sure we will continue to get until we turn our finances around, this is where we stand on the issue," he said.

Great advice.... MY ASS. Everybody has an opinion, and they're all like the girls on the corner. THEY SUCK!

LaNeve said Saab had badly underperformed Ford Motor Co.'s (NYSE:F - News) Volvo division, another Scandinavian brand, because Volvo has maintained a sharper consumer identification with safety, while the Saab message was more muddled.

Better yet, I don't think Saab ever HAD a message.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

LaNeve's statement is understandable but it's also disingenuous. He knows that it's unlikely they have any product or plan in the pipe that's going to stem the loss of market share. The market share loss over the last 20 years averages something like a point a year. So what GM has been doing and is doing isn't working. At the rate this is going Pontiac, Buick and GMC are toast within 10 years, and all the marketing and engineering dollars that are going to PBG in that 10 year period would be better served at Chevrolet and Cadillac. Saab and Saturn should go too because they aren't making money, but they're peanuts compared the the PBG albatross.

Maybe what GM should do is begin duplicating what's unique at Buick and Pontiac (Lucerne and Solstace) and give it to Chevy as the Caprice and "Chevy Whatever." That keeps Hamtramck going in the short-term. Then, stop making future Pontiacs and Buicks unique and start making them straight rebadges of Chevys much the same way GMC trucks are rebadges of Chevy trucks. Eliminate Buick and Pontiac advertising entirely. Let the dealers do with this what they can - straight personal selling and local advertising on the part of the dealer. The upside? GM would save a ton of money and plant the seeds for the future by focusing on new, leading edge Chevy and Cadillac products.

Yes, market share would suffer, but it's going to anyway. At least this way GM can get ahead of the curve without damaging Chevy and Cadillac in the process. Unfortunately, this would mean the ultimate end of Buick, GMC, and Pontiac but without the costly franchise lawsuits.

NO WAY!

The brand count issue is debatable (clearly Toyota is successful with a lot less) and having less brands allows you to focus and nurture the ones that remain.

Toyoat does better for more reasons than this... Brand count is not important when you have the kind of money they do.

Clearly Saab hasn't been marketed with a particular pitch in mind (other than the company was founded by aerospace engineers. Who cares about that?)

I agree, if a brand were to go... I'd vote Saab.

Many of the GM brands have been damaged and I'm not convinced they can be repaired in time. Buick can't because only old people drive them and they'll evenutally die off

I don't believe that for a minute... With the right product ANY of GM's brands can be saved. Buick is global anyway...

and Pontiac less so but their issue is all about product (if you buy the theme that "Pontiac is excitement.") Other than the Solstice (which people aren't familiar with) what product do they have? A Torrent? How is a mini-van "excitement?"

GP GXP.... GTO... G6 coupe/convertible

2. They've also been saying Cadillac buyers are dying off too for 30 years. Guess what? They are!

Yeah, lemme tell ya.... Cadillac is really going down the sh*tter sales wise.

Look at how many are buying Lexus now. Haven't you noticed that the Toyota Avalon has become the new Buick? The baby boomers are now hitting "old people" status so they're just buying bigger Toyotas.

EXACTLY! Which is a HUGE story AND problem in and of itself (Which Toyota knows about and acknowledges) YET not a single damn story has been PITCHED on it.... No, all we ever hear is "Buick is dieing"

Surely you jest when you ask about the GTO? When I say "they have" I mean "something they have that sells in volume." Volume is what pays the overhead and we know GM is all about overhead. I don't see something that's overpriced and sells 10K units a year as anything to get excited about. This said, I think the GTO is a decent car but I'm not going to plunk down the kind of money they want for it.

Now, now... Lets not TWIST the argument here... The POINT of your post was image. And the GTO delivers (Without the retro styling)

Independant testing orchestrated by Pro Formance (under the sanction of the SCCA) tested an '04 GP CompG against 12 other FWD 'performance' sedans, where the GP scored the highest points in the Performance & Handling Index.

It beat out the audi a6 in 5 tests, beat the Jag S-type in 4 out of 5. Also beat the bmw 330i in both acceleration and road course lap time, posting .872g figures. Comp G finished overall second (barely) only to the bmw 330i, besting the other 11 competitors.

I cannot find a direct link to anything, in the past actual comparison charts were online. Here's a biased-against source talking about it, tho:

Too bad that never got massive media exposure... OH WAIT!!! That would go against the LIE. Nevermind.

GM's brands, if positioned correctly, would be an asset, not a liability.

BINGO!!!!!!

If GM would use the POTENTIAL of it's entire portfolio to it's fullest extent; they'd OWN the market. End of story.

This brand religion (Pontiac for the sporty import-intender under 25 with a tatoo, etc) is a fantasy now,

Ummm, okay... Then why did Toyota start Scion????????? Better yet; if branding doesn't matter, why did Toyota start Lexus??????

Now, the future of Cadillac and Chevrolet are at hand.

Both of which are fine... That's beside the point.

I want GM to be around a long while. This means ditching the side shows and taking care of the crown jewels.

If GM were reduced to Saturns, Cadillacs and Chevrolets. Then I would have NO reason to buy GM. And neither would the hundredes of thousands of other customers. Killing divisions is SERIOUS nd BAD business.

one mass brand and one luxury brand with fewer, more efficient number of dealers does the job.

yeah, okay... First of all, your talking about TOYOTA. Not some NORMAL brand. Secondly, we ALL know how Toyota dealers are regarded so I wont even go there.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If there was a market for a "sporty large car" Toyota would have one.  It would be called the Toyota Avalon SE.  Unfortunately, the experience of the Bonneville GXP and Mercury Maurauder tell us there is likely no such market.

This brand religion (Pontiac for the sporty import-intender under 25 with a tatoo, etc) is a fantasy now, but it might have worked had GM gotten serious 25 years ago.  Now, the future of Cadillac and Chevrolet are at hand.  I want GM to be around a long while.  This means ditching the side shows and taking care of the crown jewels.  Speaking of crown jewels look at the possible sale of GMAC.  Good God folks forget about your fantasy RWD Grand Prix fighting the Camry.  Toyota has and is showing the way - one mass brand and one luxury brand with fewer, more efficient number of dealers does the job.

I suppose there is no truck market either, as evidenced by the current tundra and titan? The Grand Prix wouldn't be fighting the Camry, or the Avalon for that matter. I would be more correct comparing it to a less luxurious and cheaper BMW 5 series, than to the Camry. And their is a market for a large sporty RWD car, which is why Dodge didn't stop after the 300 and Magnum. They originally weren't even going to build the Charger, but after seeing what a hit the 300 was, how could they not? And if you want to hold Toyota up on a pedestal like they are perfect, you would be on the wrong site. Toyota doesn't have one single car that I would want to own. They don't cover the enthusiast market. They dont compete with the Solstice, the GTO, the Corvette, and they wont compete with the G8, or the Camaro. They build cars that provide excellent transportation, but little else. If GM turns into Toyota, they would lose more sales than they would gain. If GM is going to come out of it's slump, they will need to return to their American roots, while offering high quality at the right price.

Why buy the copy cat Toyota, when you can already have the real Toyota? And it's already been said GM isn't the default brand anymore, so copying Toyota wont fix that.

[razoredge]

Now lets see Cadillac and Chevy were the "brands" that produced some serious quality inpaired cars during the 80's & 90's..........so now they are the divisions we need to SAVE ? Yarite !

Well Caddy is doing better, it now has the sales Oldsmobile did............the year before they killed it

"OH my god, hurry we need to save Cadillac and Chevy from the damage they did to themselves"

Get rid of saturin and there is the money thats needed for further development of great Buicks and Pontiacs.

saturin is and has been the problem on these shores, then theres the money wasted abroad but here, saturin is the problem.

[The O.C.]

my numbers were made up of course.... but the sentiment is the same. The majority of Camry owners are not passionate about cars.  A much higher percentage of Grand Prix owners are. Heck, if the Grand Prix sells only to the Nascar set, my point still stands.

How can you EVEN justify or support your comment?

C'mon....I KNOW what you are TRYING to say....but there's not any evidence out there to support that. You are ASSUMING that people buy a Grand Prix over a Camry because they are more "excited" about driving a Grand Prix?

What makes you think people that buy (retail) Grand Prixs are any more passionate about cars than people buying Camrys? (outside of the usual GM/C&G/Pontiac fans such as yourself....)

(I just read in Automobile Mag that there's a fan website for Siennas, for goodness sakes....)

I'd say within reason most cars will have their representative "fanbase."

[Drew Dowdell]

300C and Charger for two. There are others on the large-midsize end of the spectrum that would qualify as well. The Bonneville GXP was a great car at the wrong time and suffered for coming along at the end of the model run. The Maurauder was a tuned-up Crown Vic LX Sport with a trio of extra gauges and lackluster performance. Saying those two cars didn't sell well and using Toyota as a qualifier for the viability of a market isn't an accurate portrayal.

Agreed. The Maurader was a great idea poorly executed.

The thing couldn't even beat a 1996 Caprice.... much less even burn rear rubber.

Note to Ford since you're watching. If your "performance model" of a carline can get dusted by an Accord V6, it isn't a performance model.

The Bonneville GXP was released when it was already obvious the Bonneville line was coming to an end. To fault the car for that isn't exactly fair.

I think the current Impala SS, Charger SRT, 300 SRT-8, and even the SHO when it was good, are proof that high performance largish sedans can sell.

[Drew Dowdell]

How can you EVEN justify or support your comment?

C'mon....I KNOW what you are TRYING to say....but there's not any evidence out there to support that.  You are ASSUMING that people buy a Grand Prix over a Camry because they are more "excited" about driving a Grand Prix?

What makes you think people that buy (retail) Grand Prixs are any more passionate about cars than people buying Camrys?  (outside of the usual GM/C&G/Pontiac fans such as yourself....)

(I just read in Automobile Mag that there's a fan website for Siennas, for goodness sakes....)

I'd say within reason most cars will have their representative "fanbase."

People who are passionate about their car buy Grand Prix, CTS's, BMWs... heck even Civics.

People who want an appliance buy Camrys, Corollas, base Malibus... and sometimes Civics.

Civic is one of the few that's good for both.

[Petra]

People who are passionate about their car buy Grand Prix, CTS's, BMWs... heck even Civics.

People who want an appliance buy Camrys, Corollas, base Malibus... and sometimes Civics.

Can you conclusively prove either one of those statements to be true? I think that is what O.C was getting at.

[pow]

People who are passionate about their car buy Grand Prix, CTS's, BMWs... heck even Civics.

People who want an appliance buy Camrys, Corollas, base Malibus... and sometimes Civics.

Civic is one of the few that's good for both.

People who are passionate about a car aren't passionate only because it's sporty or high-performing. I know people (our neighbor) who've driven the roadsters (Boxster), the sport sedans (330i), and the coupes (911) who are equally proud of and enthusiastic about their "appliance" (Pilot).

[Robert Hall]

People who are passionate about a car aren't passionate only because it's sporty or high-performing. I know people (our neighbor) who've driven the roadsters (Boxster), the sport sedans (330i), and the coupes (911) who are equally proud of and enthusiastic about their "appliance" (Pilot).

I know people that are enthusiastic about their 12 yr old, 175k mile Corollas because they have been so cheap to own and so reliable. Different strokes for different folks...