AZ Wrong on immigration

[Drew Dowdell]

Why do you have the assumption that only people not born here are going to be pulled over? I'm also white and speak very well good english.

The assumption for this law is; if you are brown and speak spanglish, you are assumed to be here illegally. That is where the racist element comes in. I'm sure there are a great many people who fit that description who are natural born or naturalized citizens.

To give you an example of how this law is unfair. My boss is Canadian, but lives in Texas. Has a Texas driver's license. He is not a U.S. citizen. He speaks perfect American English except for a couple words. He is as white as the freshly fallen snow. He is required under that law to carry his papers. Do you really think, if he were caught speeding in AZ while missing his papers, that he would be hauled into jail while his immigration status gets checked out?

As long as my boss doesn't say the words "about", "project", or "process", the cop would be none the wiser, give him his ticket, and send him on his way.

....but if he's brown and speaks spanglish, he goes direct to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200, even if he was born in Corpus Christi.

[balthazar]

>>"The assumption for this law is; if you are brown and speak spanglish, you are assumed to be here illegally. "<<

This is your assumption, correct? It's certainly not mine. There is nothing in the law that addresses race, EXCEPT to state that race cannot be the sole factor in pulling a motorist over.

OK, since we've established the law itself is not racist; as soon as you dismiss the language of the law and assume the future actions of the police, you are assigning behavior to people you have no knowledge of, people who have been trained to follow publicaly-available protocol... and you are assuming racial motivation on their part.

There are FAR more criteria and details involved in assessing a person than just skin color, and police are specifically & exhaustively trained in these ways.

>>"Do you really think, if he were caught speeding in AZ while missing his papers, that he would be hauled into jail while his immigration status gets checked out?"<<

I'm not willing to project any personal assumptions or impressions on police officers I have zero knowledge of. But technically speaking, if it came up that your boss was a Canadian citizen and was without papers, yes; the law allows him to be detained until his immigration status is verified. If he was without required papers, he is subject to a penalty. That's the law and therefore that's what should be done (if we are nationally who we claim we are). Do you advocate him being let go in said hypothetical without being verified & fined ??

There are 6.5M residents of AZ and 31% are Hispanic (LEGAL citizens). That's 2,015,000, plus an estimated 750,000 illegals. So REAL CLOSE to HALF of the state's people are hispanic/latino.

Do you believe police are suddenly going to pull over HALF the states' population and demand papers because they are simply 'brown' ? The sheer volume of 'browns' in AZ forces the police to rely on far more than just skin color. But to assume the cops enforcing this are judgementally simplistic & outright racist is ridiculously unfair.

Remember, just as is the case with the federal law, the touchstone is at the point of enforcement. The Fed does NOTHING, tho they have these same laws on their books.

SB1070 has been completely neutered at this point, but what will happen at the point of contact still remains to be seen... not assumed.

Since there is no evidence as to what will happen & the law has yet to be enacted in full, the reaction here is directed at the law itself... which is a restatement of federal law.

It is still within the realm of possibilities that the State will effectively do what the Fed does: NOTHING.

[A Horse With No Name]

Remember, just as is the case with the federal law, the touchstone is at the point of enforcement. The Fed does NOTHING, tho they have these same laws on their books.

SB1070 has been completely neutered at this point, but what will happen at the point of contact still remains to be seen... not assumed.

Since there is no evidence as to what will happen & the law has yet to be enacted in full, the reaction here is directed at the law itself... which is a restatement of federal law.

It is still within the realm of possibilities that the State will effectively do what the Fed does: NOTHING.

This is exactly why we need legal reform in this country...our legal code is a joke, and largely unenforceable.

simplify the legal code, as well as the tax code, and get everyone on board, and we are in bidness....

Edited November 21, 2010 by 66Stang

[balthazar]

That ^ I would completely agree with. I don't think there's a single micro-entity in Gov that could not use a thorough going-over & streamlining.

Also, a great quantity of Gov entities just need to be flushed.

There was an analysis done a few years ago, and the result was that 22% (<-this I remember explicitly) of all federal programs either no longer have a reason to exist, or have no measurable effect either way.

[CSpec]

The Economist

Suppose your parents moved to America from Mexico without legal permission when you were five years old. You grow up in America. You graduate from high school in America. You're an American in every sense except the legal one. You want to go to college, but because your parents came into the country illicitly, you don't qualify for government financial aid, and you can't get legal work. If caught by immigration authorities, you face the possibility of detention or deportation, even though this is, in every sense, your home. That doesn't seem fair. Every year, over 60,000 kids like you graduate high school in the United States. And unless something like the DREAM Act becomes law, you and they will become part of a growing class of marginalised and unprotected Americans without papers.

[CSpec]

Excuse me? No way in hell a rational person would choose to sneak through the desert? Uh, last time I checked, we are flooded with millions of illegal aliens in just California alone, and hundreds of thousands make the trek every year, many of which get through.

The Economist

One of the things that's so attractive to you about America is it's sound institutions, including its sturdy rule of law. You would very much like to migrate to the United States legally. So what are your options? Zip. Zilch. Zero.

You have no options! There is no way to "get in line" and "wait your turn" because there is no line for you to stand in that leads to the legal right to live and work in the United States.

So you pack up one day, take a hair-raising hike through the desert with your young daughter, meet up with your friends in Tucson, and get to work on the American dream. What were you supposed to do? Consign yourself and your daughter to a life on the edge of poverty out of respect for the American rule of law? Please.

[balthazar]

The Economist -

So who's going to be the judge of "good moral character" requirement that's in this proposed 'Dream Act' - Harry Reid ???

What about the circumstances of their upbringing- should they really be held responsible for the effects of the atmosphere they were raised in?

That's frequently a mitigating circumstance WRT Americans accused of crimes- it should be extended to foreign lawbreakers, too.

And what's with the 'certain' illegals being eligible- for EX: why are those who crept under barbed wire @ age 16 'discriminated' against ??? Aren't they just as much 'American' as those who crept in @ 15 ???

I think that even if you are a newborn rolled under the fence you should be included.

In fact, just let EVERYBODY in, and make it so the moment they touch toe to U.S. soil they're handed a SS check so it's "fair".

[CSpec]

In fact, just let EVERYBODY in, and make it so the moment they touch toe to U.S. soil they're handed a SS check so it's "fair".

That's how it worked for many years in this country. If it hadn't been for that, we would be Australia. Nice country, no people.

[balthazar]

>>"That's how it worked for many years in this country."<<

See post #116.

[CSpec]

>>"That's how it worked for many years in this country."<<

See post #116.

You refer to specific xenophobic acts of Congress in the 20s. You need to look before that--the proportion of foreign born residents in the US was much higher in the 1890s than it is today.

[A Horse With No Name]

You refer to specific xenophobic acts of Congress in the 20s. You need to look before that--the proportion of foreign born residents in the US was much higher in the 1890s than it is today.

I agree with you here...

I would let a lot MORE people into this country, actually....

[balthazar]

>>"You need to look before that--the proportion of foreign born residents in the US was much higher in the 1890s than it is today."<<

It was; 14.7% in '90, with a total population of 62 million. So what of it? Crunch the numbers: if 14.7% of 350 million moved in, that'd be 51 million people.

But to what end ?? For what purpose or goal ?? And how to provide for them ???

What dictates maintaining a immigrant percentage figure from 120 years ago to today ????

Makes no sense on any level.

[Nick]

The Economist

One of the things that's so attractive to you about America is it's sound institutions, including its sturdy rule of law. You would very much like to migrate to the United States legally. So what are your options? Zip. Zilch. Zero.

You have no options! There is no way to "get in line" and "wait your turn" because there is no line for you to stand in that leads to the legal right to live and work in the United States.

So you pack up one day, take a hair-raising hike through the desert with your young daughter, meet up with your friends in Tucson, and get to work on the American dream. What were you supposed to do? Consign yourself and your daughter to a life on the edge of poverty out of respect for the American rule of law? Please.

I really liked your little story.

You refer to specific xenophobic acts of Congress in the 20s. You need to look before that--the proportion of foreign born residents in the US was much higher in the 1890s than it is today.

Uh...pardon my French, but...no $h!? That's a completely asinine comment which means absolutely nothing in regards what you are trying to argue. (Also, I love how everything that doesn't support your agenda is considered xenophobic.)

The country (at that time a much younger and far less populated country) was going through an influx of immigration. Significant growth could easily be supported. This country was founded on immigration, but a constant stream cannot be sustained...not unless there are just as many people leaving as there are coming. We can't even provide enough opportunities to our current population. Another massive influx of immigrants would turn America into a 3rd world country, but it sounds like that is what you want.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Nick

[balthazar]

^ The MASSIVE disconnect between ideology & reality....

[CSpec]

Another massive influx of immigrants would turn America into a 3rd world country, but it sounds like that is what you want.

This is just completely incorrect. Besides, we're mainly talking about immigrants who are already here and working away, making your life better.

[A Horse With No Name]

This is just completely incorrect. Besides, we're mainly talking about immigrants who are already here and working away, making your life better.

Sorry to both Nick and Balthazar...who i greatly respect...but I'm with CSPEC on this one!

[ocnblu]

AMNESTY

[A Horse With No Name]

AMNESTY

Why? Do you really want to send working families back to Mexico or elsewhere to live in gang violence and poverty?

[ocnblu]

It is not our fault Mexico is a horrible country to live in. Mexico needs to clean up their act and build their country on the rule of law. They need to create opportunities for their citizens to live in prosperity and peace. They need to crush the drug cartels that are ruling their country. We need to stop being a crutch for Mexico to lean on. They are draining money and other resources from us and we need to stop letting them. We are not infinitely rich. At some point we need to take care of our own.

Edited November 23, 2010 by ocnblu

[A Horse With No Name]

I can really, really agree on taking care of our own. Seriously...

There is a lot of foreign aid that needs to stop. But I',m still not seeing most immigrants as being that much of a problem once they are here.

And I am also not so sure that Mexico is going to clean up it's own drug war mess....I'm wondering if we've just brought the troops home from Iraq to send them south of the border...and that's if this crap with Korea doesn't heat up....

[CSpec]

They need to crush the drug cartels that are ruling their country.

You know those drug cartels only exist because they supply the American drug market, right? It's American policy that creates them.

[balthazar]

Mexico is a hot mess, but it's NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. It is NOT our country and it's people are NOT our citizens.

Our country is swirling in the bowl- we MUST take care of our citizens first. Resources are strained and the economy is also swirling in the bowl.

And those illegal immigrants (you really MUST learn that there is a difference) aren't "making my life better", they're competing with me for work.

You are advocating anarchy.

[CSpec]

And those illegal immigrants (you really MUST learn that there is a difference) aren't "making my life better", they're competing with me for work.

You are advocating anarchy.

If they aren't illegal for any particular reason, it doesn't make sense to freak out that they're entering the country illegally to work. Just change the law. And I don't think you're a migrant worker picking berries in Florida--you go to the store and pay low prices for those berries.

[SAmadei]

Mexico is a hot mess, but it's NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. It is NOT our country and it's people are NOT our citizens.

I agree... and I'd never advocate getting directly involved with Mexico, but as CSpec noted, a LOT of Mexico's lawlessness is created by the huge amounts of money the drug cartels are getting because of our ineffective drug war.

This all creates a perfect storm between the two countries and the overall effect would certainly be considered hostile if not for our official "friendly" status.

Thinking about the two problems together... I suppose the eventual solution will be that our drug war will continue to fund Mexico's warlords... and eventually they will amass a military big enough to simply annex Arizona. Then the AZ immigration problem is moot.

[balthazar]

Yes, because ALL illegal immigrants do is pick berries.

No way they're involved in nearly every blue-collar industry out there; no way.

This dovetails perfectly with your rosy sunshiny view of the issue.

>>"If they aren't illegal for any particular reason, it doesn't make sense to freak out that they're entering the country illegally to work."<<

Spock would slap you.

[CSpec]

>>"If they aren't illegal for any particular reason, it doesn't make sense to freak out that they're entering the country illegally to work."<<

Spock would slap you.

You're making a classic mistake, assuming that the economy is a fixed pie and that immigrants must directly replace a native-born on the assembly line. That is not true. Illegal immigrants come here to work, which means there is a large market that would like to hire them in order to sell their products and increase wealth. Note that illegal immigration has slowed substantially in the downturn because of fewer work opportunities. Did your ancestors not escape the Old World in order to work their way up in the the US?

[Drew Dowdell]

You're making a classic mistake, assuming that the economy is a fixed pie and that immigrants must directly replace a native-born on the assembly line. That is not true. Illegal immigrants come here to work, which means there is a large market that would like to hire them in order to sell their products and increase wealth. Note that illegal immigration has slowed substantially in the downturn because of fewer work opportunities. Did your ancestors not escape the Old World in order to work their way up in the the US?

In your world the pie only grows..... what happens when the pie shrinks?

[Robert Hall]

In your world the pie only grows..... what happens when the pie shrinks?

Or crumbles into fragments.

[Drew Dowdell]

or even just stays the same..... (as .0001 % GDP growth sounds like)

[CSpec]

In your world the pie only grows..... what happens when the pie shrinks?

Then immigrant workers tend to go home (either to Guatemala or to India with their American PhD). There were lots of stories last year about immigrants sneaking back the other way. But the economy is growing at the moment.

[Drew Dowdell]

Then immigrant workers tend to go home (either to Guatemala or to India with their American PhD). There were lots of stories last year about immigrants sneaking back the other way. But the economy is growing at the moment.

by what measure and by how much?

[CSpec]

by what measure and by how much?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-gdp-revised-higher-to-25-in-third-quarter-2010-11-23?reflink=MW_news_stmp

[Drew Dowdell]

ugh.

[Robert Hall]

Then immigrant workers tend to go home (either to Guatemala or to India with their American PhD). There were lots of stories last year about immigrants sneaking back the other way. But the economy is growing at the moment.

LoL..the Indian workers I've worked with over the last decade or so come here on an H1-B visa, buy Toyotas, houses, and raise families..they rarely go back..

[Drew Dowdell]

all of the growth cited by CSpec is corporate profits....... so basically it's the rich getting richer again....

yet..

Still, most economists say the current growth rate is far too slow to recover the considerable ground lost during the recession.

“The economy is not growing fast enough to reduce significantly the unemployment rate or to prevent a slide into deflation,” Paul Dales, a United States economist for Capital Economics, wrote in a note to clients. “This is unlikely to change in 2011 or 2012.”

[Robert Hall]

all of the growth cited by CSpec is corporate profits....... so basically it's the rich getting richer again....

Yes..the corrupt corporations that would outsource 99% of US jobs if they could.

[CSpec]

Alright, ignoring the stupid populist Bolshevism, here's some more data:

Mall traffic for November 2010 has shown a steep rise recently, according to a report released today by Thomson Reuters.

Using satellite images the firm is able to measure parking lot traffic, which correlates well with same-store sales.

“Based on this relationship, we may be seeing an early sign that stronger November 2010 mall traffic is pointing to stronger same-store sales,” wrote Thomson Reuters analyst Jharonne Martis-Olivo in the report.

At 3.5%, the Thomson Reuters Same-Store Sales Index for November is significantly stronger than the 0.5% in November 2009 and the -7.8% for November 2008.

[Drew Dowdell]

Neato... so new unemployment claims is only just under 450k per week average. that's on top of the 100k plus a month that are added to the job pool from population growth. So we're still falling behind on employment.

And rail car loads are up from 2009... which is good since the bottom was in 2008 I believe. What were carloads in say... 2005 or 2006?

still, I don't see the growth yet.... we haven't even made up the lost ground to get us back to pre-crash levels.

[CSpec]

still, I don't see the growth yet.... we haven't even made up the lost ground to get us back to pre-crash levels.

What? A positive derivative is growth. It takes time to rebuild after a speculative bubble--resources that were mistakenly poured into non-real assets need to be reallocated to productive sectors. Shopping, profits, and employment are all improving.

[Drew Dowdell]

What? A positive derivative is growth. It takes time to rebuild after a speculative bubble--resources that were mistakenly poured into non-real assets need to be reallocated to productive sectors. Shopping, profits, and employment are all improving.

uh... check that employment improving statement.

[CSpec]

uh... check that employment improving statement.

[Nick]

This is just completely incorrect. Besides, we're mainly talking about immigrants who are already here and working away, making your life better.

You're full of it. It was in response to your comment which directly addressed immigration...You know, that thing when a person moves from one country to another?

If they aren't illegal for any particular reason, it doesn't make sense to freak out that they're entering the country illegally to work. Just change the law. And I don't think you're a migrant worker picking berries in Florida--you go to the store and pay low prices for those berries.

Except that they are illegal for a particular reason. They bypassed the LEGAL immigration process! What is so hard to understand? How is this at all difficult to comprehend? That is why we have immigration control. There are not enough jobs for every working American citizen. The absolute only reason illegals can get jobs is because companies can get away with compensating them on a far lesser scale, and even then, the barriers to entry for any true citizen to obtain a job that an illegal alien works is far too significant with how entrenched the illegal populous has become in certain job sectors.

I find it absolutely insane that you believe the simple solution is to literally open up our borders. You believe that by allowing immigrants to just walk right in they will be greeted with a job. Have you seen the unemployment figures recently? How truly jaded are you?

Oh, and maybe you'd like to explain why one would "pay low prices for berries".

You're making a classic mistake, assuming that the economy is a fixed pie and that immigrants must directly replace a native-born on the assembly line. That is not true. Illegal immigrants come here to work, which means there is a large market that would like to hire them in order to sell their products and increase wealth. Note that illegal immigration has slowed substantially in the downturn because of fewer work opportunities. Did your ancestors not escape the Old World in order to work their way up in the the US?

Guess what American citizens (both legal immigrants and native-born...you always seemingly overlook the glaring difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL) like to do? They like TO WORK! Guess what happens when unemployment rises? THEY CAN'T WORK! I'm sure many would love to work again, despite the type of work, but a huge amount of jobs are being worked by illegal aliens; illegal aliens who are hired based on the fact that companies can get away with compensating them far less than an American citizen. You mean to tell me there is a large market for cheap labor? WHO KNEW?!

Edited November 23, 2010 by Nick

[ocnblu]

I've been under the mistaken impression that a good portion of people come here to have babies and get on public assistance. Or maybe that's just around here. It cannot be anywhere else.

[CSpec]

You're full of it. It was in response to your comment which directly addressed immigration...You know, that thing when a person moves from one country to another?

Are you one of those people who completely dodges the question of what to do about the millions of undocumented residents that are already here?

Except that they are illegal for a particular reason. They bypassed the LEGAL immigration process! What is so hard to understand? How is this at all difficult to comprehend? That is why we have immigration control.

Have you heard of status quo bias? Just because a law is what it is doesn't mean it should be that way. The legal immigration process is insane, much like the drug war. Notice how the fact that pot is illegal doesn't really stop people from smoking it?

I find it absolutely insane that you believe the simple solution is to literally open up our borders. You believe that by allowing immigrants to just walk right in they will be greeted with a job. Have you seen the unemployment figures recently? How truly jaded are you?

Your thinking is backwards. Immigration numbers are very highly correlated with employment opportunities--immigration is down significantly in the past few years, and in fact many immigrants have gone back the other way (both skilled and unskilled alike). Immigrants don't just show up and suckle at the teat of the taxpayer; there is only a stream of immigrants if there are jobs for them to fill. Market forces take care of it.

Guess what American citizens (both legal immigrants and native-born...you always seemingly overlook the glaring difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL) like to do? They like TO WORK! Guess what happens when unemployment rises? THEY CAN'T WORK!

Get back to me when the laid off IT guy wants to work at a meat-packing plant.

[Drew Dowdell]

There are middle management people out there who can't even get jobs as secretaries. Computer programmers who can't get work mowing lawns. Landscapers who... can't get work.

[CSpec]

There are middle management people out there who can't even get jobs as secretaries. Computer programmers who can't get work mowing lawns. Landscapers who... can't get work.

What's your point?

[Drew Dowdell]

That people are already trying to slum way below their pay grade and still not able to find work

[CSpec]

That people are already trying to slum way below their pay grade and still not able to find work

And? Are you going to say we should ban all immigrants and imports?

[balthazar]

If they are here illegally AND they're taking up a job that an American citizen could otherwise take, that's 2 reasons they need to be gone.

But for the eleventy-millionth time, no one is advocating a ban on immigration, just a ban on illegal immigration.

All companies that import should pay a sliding scale business license fee in order to tap into the richest, most lucrative market in the world, yes. They're certainly not going to pull out over it; 5 years ago toyoyo was making 75% of its global profit in the U.S. alone.

[A Horse With No Name]

I've been under the mistaken impression that a good portion of people come here to have babies and get on public assistance. Or maybe that's just around here. It cannot be anywhere else.

Around here....we see Hispanics working at seven O'Clock on a Saturday night as construction workers, working odd shifts in rester-aunt kitchens, doing house cleaning, doing masonry, doing all kinds of other work....

Get back to me when the laid off IT guy wants to work at a meat-packing plant.

Lots of them are...it's called under employment.

Guys in the VW TDI club I am part of are largely workers in the IT field. A very talented friend of mine was unemployed for well over a year...

His job went to India....