AZ Wrong on immigration

[ocnblu]

You carry your passport with you all the time? I don't. Oh look, (you have a tail light out on the Colorado)/(where going 57 in a 55)/(weren't wearing your seatbelt)/(pulled up to a DUI checkpoint)/(looked suspicious walking around the neighborhood)/(vehicle inspection is one day overdue)/(your exhaust system doesn't sound legal)/(your right front tire is low).... we'll have to take you down to the station while we figure out your immigration status.

You know as well as I do that cops can make up ANYTHING or even NOTHING AT ALL as an excuse to stop you.

Don't be paranoid.

[Robert Hall]

Don't be paranoid.

In AZ it's referred to as 'driving while Hispanic'...the police will pull over anyone that looks Hispanic w/o a reason..

Edited November 19, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[ocnblu]

Hype. Link please.

[Robert Hall]

Hype. Link please.

Racial profiling has been a standard police technique for years, albeit controversial..

Article

[ocnblu]

Laughably meaningless link... really. He's a lawyer. He's trying to make money. And six men pulled over since 2005... WOW.

[Robert Hall]

Laughably meaningless link... really. He's a lawyer. He's trying to make money. And six men pulled over since 2005... WOW.

Actually, that article didn't originate at that site..that article is on several sites, that was the first hit on a search..many articles out there if you look...racial profiling has been in the news for years.

Besides, you are out in the sticks in PA, you don't have the issues they have a big SW city like Phoenix...so obviously, you wouldn't be aware of what's going on..

[ocnblu]

Excuse me? Check your Google maps. I do not live in "the sticks". Lancaster has a huge Hispanic problem.

[Robert Hall]

Excuse me? Check your Google maps. I do not live in "the sticks". Lancaster has a huge Hispanic problem.

I thought Lancaster was in rural Amish country...

[EMan]

Excuse me? Check your Google maps. I do not live in "the sticks". Lancaster has a huge Hispanic problem.

So now Hispanics in general are a problem... maybe we should just put them in consentration... I mean internment camps.

[ocnblu]

When people lie to get public assistance and when they make no effort to learn the language of the country they are in, it is a problem. It's very refreshing to be able to help a Latin customer who understands and speaks good English.

Don't try to put me somewhere I'm not, EMan.

[CSpec]

Don't be paranoid.

I think you need to meet America's favorite sheriff, Joe Arpaio:

http://reason.com/archives/2010/07/20/arrest-everybody

“I wish that the Phoenix police would arrest everybody,” he said, “even if they’re not sure [if they're illegal immigrants].”

[Robert Hall]

I think you need to meet America's favorite sheriff, Joe Arpaio:

http://reason.com/ar...rrest-everybody

He's nothing but an armed thug with a sherriff's department of armed, racist thugs... the morons here vote him into office every election...

Edited November 19, 2010 by Oldsmoboi
little too political....

[balthazar]

In AZ it's referred to as 'driving while Hispanic'...the police will pull over anyone that looks Hispanic w/o a reason..

In AZ, it's referred to as 'doing the federal government's job because they won't.'

[CSpec]

I don't understand why everyone assumes that illegal immigrants should be illegal--there is little to no discussion about why their legal admission is blocked to begin with! When confronted about their own family histories, most anti-immigrant zealots stammer and say that their grandparents came here legally. But the immigration regime was completely different back then! All you had to do was show up at Ellis Island and they made sure you didn't have some horrible disease and you weren't a wanted criminal. There were no arbitrary numerical restrictions. The fact that people risk their lives to terrible border crossing conditions and ruthless human traffickers for the chance to work in the United States should maybe be a clue that the current system makes no sense and it's totally insane to accept a military state to enforce a law that doesn't make sense, and can't actually be enforced on any large scale without turning the country into East Germany.

[Drew Dowdell]

good god! The second time in a week that I agree with CSpec on something political.....

I need to go lie down.

[balthazar]

>>"There were no arbitrary numerical restrictions. "<<

We went over this before. There WERE restrictions (no chinese allowed), then there were more with the Immigration Act of 1917, more still with the 1921 Emergency Quota Act, more still with the Immigration Restriction Act of 1921, and more still with the Immigration Act of 1924. You are seemingly trying to paint a picture that EVERY SINGLE PERSON was welcomed in until Ellis Island closed, and only NOW is the "evil racist White man" trying to keep ILLEGAL immigrants out (yet at the same time, ERWM has not made a single peep about legal immigrants).

[Nick]

I don't understand why everyone assumes that illegal immigrants should be illegal--there is little to no discussion about why their legal admission is blocked to begin with!

Last time I checked, much like many other nations, there is a legal way of entering into the country. They didn't enter into the country legally. That means they entered into the country illegally. It seems pretty clear to me. Their legal admission isn't blocked. They want to be here legally? Great! Ship them back and let them go through the process that every other legal immigrant has to go through.

Let's put it this way...say I want to go see a movie, but I don't want to wait in line and buy a ticket, so instead I go in through the back door and sneak into a theater. If I get caught why should I get thrown out? There is no reason it shouldn't have been free to begin with!

When confronted about their own family histories, most anti-immigrant zealots stammer and say that their grandparents came here legally.

Who are you referring to as an anti-immigration zealot? I'd be willing to bet pretty much everyone is for immigration...LEGAL immigration.

But the immigration regime was completely different back then! All you had to do was show up at Ellis Island and they made sure you didn't have some horrible disease and you weren't a wanted criminal. There were no arbitrary numerical restrictions.

Are you seriously comparing immigration policies from over 100 years ago to those today? You need to brush up on your history over the years if you can't plainly see why regulation and deliberate numerical restrictions are indeed necessary. Hell, you don't even need a history book to figure that out.

The fact that people risk their lives to terrible border crossing conditions and ruthless human traffickers for the chance to work in the United States should maybe be a clue that the current system makes no sense and it's totally insane to accept a military state to enforce a law that doesn't make sense, and can't actually be enforced on any large scale without turning the country into East Germany.

The current system makes no sense because it forces people to risk their lives if they choose to come here illegally? Where is the logic in that? They don't have to risk their lives to come here if they go through the legal immigration process. Many have participated in the process and many are now legal citizens who did not risk their lives. I work with a Persian, a Filipino, two Chinese, and a French Canadian. All of them are highly successful individuals who came to America in their lifetime by going through the legal immigration process; not illegally hopping the border.

Believe it or not, there are many legal citizens in this country who want to work (you'd think the unemployment rate would do a good enough job of explaining that one). And before you say these people do jobs that citizens don't want to do, that is not only ignorant, but completely and utterly false. But no, let's not support the American citizens, let's support the "poor Mexicans who risked their lives to come here and just want to work" (and send their money back across the border, and leech off our welfare systems, and not make any attempt to assimilate). How is it not obvious that these people, for the most part do not give a rats ass about becoming legal citizens? Why should they when they can so easily take such great advantage of our current system?

Edited November 20, 2010 by Nick

[Drew Dowdell]

The system makes no sense because it takes years to a decade to come here legally.

[ocnblu]

Well then, we'll know they'll be productive new citizens. It should not be an overnight process to decide to come here. It should take study and considerable thought to repatriate oneself. Let those who don't want to bother with the process stay in their own country instead of dragging us down to their level.

Edited November 20, 2010 by ocnblu

[Drew Dowdell]

Well then, we'll know they'll be productive new citizens. It should not be an overnight process to decide to come here. It should take study and considerable thought to repatriate oneself. Let those who don't want to bother with the process stay in their own country instead of dragging us down to their level.

Don't disagree, however most of that time is not from "process" but from insufficient staffing by the government. If all paperwork is in order, it shouldn't take much more than a year. I can be repatriated to Germany in about 6 months assuming everything is in order.

10 years is a bit much don't you think?

[balthazar]

It is, but that is NO EXCUSE to 'sneak in the back door of the theatre to avoid the wait/ticket price' (per Nick's analogy).

[Nick]

Don't disagree, however most of that time is not from "process" but from insufficient staffing by the government. If all paperwork is in order, it shouldn't take much more than a year. I can be repatriated to Germany in about 6 months assuming everything is in order.

10 years is a bit much don't you think?

I definitely agree that the process takes quite a bit more time than it should. No question about it. I used to go to an Egyptian hair stylist for a long time and I remember she would talk about how her family was going through the immigration process. I remember it taking at least a decade, if not more, and the process could be quite grueling at times. I was very happy for her when they finally arrived.

I think more resources should be delegated to increasing the efficiency of the immigration process, including staffing and procedures. That being said, unfortunately what we have right now is what we get until the people (i.e. the legal American citizens) truly yell out for immigration reform. Whatever inefficiencies the current process may have is no excuse to circumvent the system and undermine the rule of law. The AZ policy, whether it is liked or not, may be the straw that finally breaks the current immigration policy's back. It may just push the envelope enough to warrant some significant consideration for change.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Nick

[Z-06]

I definitely agree that the process takes quite a bit more time than it should. No question about it. I used to go to an Egyptian hair stylist for a long time and I remember she would talk about how her family was going through the immigration process. I remember it taking at least a decade, if not more, and the process could be quite grueling at times. I was very happy for her when they finally arrived.

I think more resources should be delegated to increasing the efficiency of the immigration process, including staffing and procedures. That being said, unfortunately what we have right now is what we get until the people (i.e. the legal American citizens) truly yell out for immigration reform. Whatever inefficiencies the current process may have is no excuse to circumvent the system and undermine the rule of law. The AZ policy, whether it is liked or not, may be the straw that finally breaks the current immigration policy's back. It may just push the envelope enough to warrant some significant consideration for change.

The efficiency has definitely increased. My green card took only 65 days since filed. Previously the interview itself used to be arranged no less than 6 months if you were lucky.

H1 visas take less than 72 hours through e-filing if your sponsor company has all ducks lined.

As much as we blame government, some giant strides are being made in immigration dept.

[CSpec]

Well then, we'll know they'll be productive new citizens. It should not be an overnight process to decide to come here. It should take study and considerable thought to repatriate oneself. Let those who don't want to bother with the process stay in their own country instead of dragging us down to their level.

This is blatantly xenophobic.

The current system makes no sense because it forces people to risk their lives if they choose to come here illegally? Where is the logic in that? They don't have to risk their lives to come here if they go through the legal immigration process. Many have participated in the process and many are now legal citizens who did not risk their lives. I work with a Persian, a Filipino, two Chinese, and a French Canadian. All of them are highly successful individuals who came to America in their lifetime by going through the legal immigration process; not illegally hopping the border.

Believe it or not, there are many legal citizens in this country who want to work (you'd think the unemployment rate would do a good enough job of explaining that one). And before you say these people do jobs that citizens don't want to do, that is not only ignorant, but completely and utterly false. But no, let's not support the American citizens, let's support the "poor Mexicans who risked their lives to come here and just want to work" (and send their money back across the border, and leech off our welfare systems, and not make any attempt to assimilate). How is it not obvious that these people, for the most part do not give a rats ass about becoming legal citizens? Why should they when they can so easily take such great advantage of our current system?

If being a legal is so wonderful, why do so many risk their lives to come in illegally? For fun?

[Nick]

This is blatantly xenophobic.

If being a legal is so wonderful, why do so many risk their lives to come in illegally? For fun?

Because they know by simply bypassing the tough, lengthy immigration process they can skip across the border in a fraction of the time and cost, take full advantage of our system, and not be held accountable. I don't blame them one bit. I'd probably do the same thing in their shoes. There is no accountability, and that is the problem.

[Robert Hall]

Of the hard working Canadian immigrants I know, it took them about 7-10 years of full time work here before they got their green cards...and these are well educated six-figure income professionals.

[ocnblu]

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLlFd5KVoqQ?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLlFd5KVoqQ?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLlFd5KVoqQ?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Drew Dowdell]

Of the hard working Canadian immigrants I know, it took them about 7-10 years of full time work here before they got their green cards...and these are well educated six-figure income professionals.

Again.... illustrating the problem. But if a Canadian is here after their visa expired, they're not going to get random traffic stopped because "their left blinker fluid looked a bit low" and then hauled to jail while the authorities figure out their immigration status.

[EMan]

When people lie to get public assistance and when they make no effort to learn the language of the country they are in, it is a problem. It's very refreshing to be able to help a Latin customer who understands and speaks good English.

Don't try to put me somewhere I'm not, EMan.

I'm not "putting" you anywhere you don't put your self in. When you say hispanics and just leave it at that, is not thing different from some one saying that all white people are crak addits, marry their cousins, live in trailer parks, hate outsiders and love NASCAR.

To take on one of your points: My wife worked for Medical, and let me tell you it wasn't only Hispanics people that lie to get public assistance. As a ratio you had the same amount of whites lying to get public assistance. People driving new cars, with housese valued closed to $500 milion. When I asked her how they got away with it, she said it was simple once they knew how to work the system. Towards the end she just couldn't take it... she couldn't take people working the system and having to denie people that really needed it. So I don't buy this argument that people lying and taking avantage of the system is an isolated Hispanic problem.

I agree with the poster that stated you sound xenophobic. I don't know if you are, but they way you communicate sure does make you sound like one.

You need to read this and tell me what you think.

My link

[CSpec]

Because they know by simply bypassing the tough, lengthy immigration process they can skip across the border in a fraction of the time and cost, take full advantage of our system, and not be held accountable. I don't blame them one bit. I'd probably do the same thing in their shoes. There is no accountability, and that is the problem.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how people get here from Latin America. It's extremely dangerous, and there's no way in hell a rational person would choose to sneak through the desert for weeks when they could just fill out a simple form and arrive like a human being. And why is the immigration process so tough and lengthy anyway? What's the rationale?

[balthazar]

I have to believe in it's primarily a reflection of the general efficiency of the Fed, or obvious lack thereof.

[EMan]

Sorry about getting off topic...

In regards to "AZ Wrong on immigration". I think that not only is AZ wrong on immigration but the nation as a whole is wrong on immigration; AZ is just taking a worse path. I believe, as some one already mentioned it, the real focus should be on the companies hiring undocumented immigrants. People come to the US because they can get a job plain and simple. There is this big incentive for people making 5 dollars a day in their original country to risk their life to cross the boarder, because they know they can get work. So in my opinion we need to stop this incentive. We need to stop blaming undocumented immigrants and take a close look at our companies that hire them. If US companies don't hire these people, the rate at which they come will drop dramatically. Why would some one risk their life, spending days in the desert, with little or no food and water, if they can't get work once they get here? They simply won't.

[CSpec]

Sorry about getting off topic...

In regards to "AZ Wrong on immigration". I think that not only is AZ wrong on immigration but the nation as a whole is wrong on immigration; AZ is just taking a worse path. I believe, as some one already mentioned it, the real focus should be on the companies hiring undocumented immigrants. People come to the US because they can get a job plain and simple. There is this big incentive for people making 5 dollars a day in their original country to risk their life to cross the boarder, because they know they can get work. So in my opinion we need to stop this incentive. We need to stop blaming undocumented immigrants and take a close look at our companies that hire them. If US companies don't hire these people, the rate at which they come will drop dramatically. Why would some one risk their life, spending days in the desert, with little or no food and water, if they can't get work once they get here? They simply won't.

This is entirely entirely entirely backwards. Why would this be a good thing? Jobs aren't something that just appear because people are charitable: companies are willing to pay people to do those jobs because they get value out of it. Why would you ban companies from filling those positions? How is that good for anyone? Again, why are the current illegal immigrants a bad thing, ignoring the fact that they're nominally illegal?

[EMan]

This is entirely entirely entirely backwards. Why would this be a good thing? Jobs aren't something that just appear because people are charitable: companies are willing to pay people to do those jobs because they get value out of it. Why would you ban companies from filling those positions? How is that good for anyone? Again, why are the current illegal immigrants a bad thing, ignoring the fact that they're nominally illegal?

I don't think you understand me... maybe I just didn't state my point properly. What I'm saying stop giving jobs to undocumented immigrants. As you say, jobs are not just given out of charity, they are given because the company gets value from it. By hiring undocumented immigrants the companies only have to pay the worker, the company won't pay, unemployment, social security, insurance or any other indirect. That is one incentive to hire someone undocumented over a documented one, or citizen. What I am saying is that by stopping companies from hiring undocumented immigrants we will reduce the number of people crossing illegally. That is step one.

The next step would be, what to do with the ones already in the US? I think there should be a path to citizenship. Why would we spend Billions of dollars tracking and deporting them? I mean there are people arguing for government to spend less and less money, but fail to see that if we where to track and deport, it would cost billions if not trillions of dollars. Now if you were to give them a path to citizenship involving but not limited to criminal checks (other than being here illegally), and pay a "fine", we would be a lot better off; even if one half take advantage of it.

[CSpec]

By hiring undocumented immigrants the companies only have to pay the worker, the company won't pay, unemployment, social security, insurance or any other indirect.

That's just incorrect: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

[EMan]

That's just incorrect: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

I agree, but may point has to do more with the company having less responsability when they take on an undocumented working where one who is. If a company asks for a SSN yes they will be contribuiting to Social Security, and the undocumented worker won't see the benefit from it. Now, not all copanies will ask for SSN and these workers become ghost I see it in my line of work all the time.

I think both of us are in agreement with the big picture but just have a few minor items we dissagree and don't see eye to eye.

[Nick]

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how people get here from Latin America. It's extremely dangerous, and there's no way in hell a rational person would choose to sneak through the desert for weeks when they could just fill out a simple form and arrive like a human being. And why is the immigration process so tough and lengthy anyway? What's the rationale?

Excuse me? No way in hell a rational person would choose to sneak through the desert? Uh, last time I checked, we are flooded with millions of illegal aliens in just California alone, and hundreds of thousands make the trek every year, many of which get through.

Sorry about getting off topic...

In regards to "AZ Wrong on immigration". I think that not only is AZ wrong on immigration but the nation as a whole is wrong on immigration; AZ is just taking a worse path. I believe, as some one already mentioned it, the real focus should be on the companies hiring undocumented immigrants. People come to the US because they can get a job plain and simple. There is this big incentive for people making 5 dollars a day in their original country to risk their life to cross the boarder, because they know they can get work. So in my opinion we need to stop this incentive. We need to stop blaming undocumented immigrants and take a close look at our companies that hire them. If US companies don't hire these people, the rate at which they come will drop dramatically. Why would some one risk their life, spending days in the desert, with little or no food and water, if they can't get work once they get here? They simply won't.

This is exactly right. I don't blame the illegal aliens at all (on a side note, I am so tired of the PC bull&#036;h&#33;. They are illegal aliens. Criminals. Enough with this sugarcoated "undocumented immigrant" crap). The ones at blame are the businesses because they are the ones who enable these illegals to continue pouring into this country. Put a stop to hiring of illegals by doing thorough background checks and guess what? You have successfully eliminated much of the illegal immigration problem! If illegals can't get jobs, then they won't come here looking for work.

This is entirely entirely entirely backwards. Why would this be a good thing? Jobs aren't something that just appear because people are charitable: companies are willing to pay people to do those jobs because they get value out of it. Why would you ban companies from filling those positions? How is that good for anyone? Again, why are the current illegal immigrants a bad thing, ignoring the fact that they're nominally illegal?

How is what he said at all backwards? Where did he say anything about banning companies from filling positions? How about filling positions with the many unemployed legal citizens? How is it good to give jobs away to illegals? You are literally outsourcing your work to another country on your home turf. It is absurd.

That's just incorrect: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

It even says in that article that these people are obtaining jobs by acquiring false identification. That identification could merely be fake, or it could be yours. Do they pay some taxes? Yes, there is a portion that may pay some taxes, but don't be so naive to think that the same could be said for the majority. Now, take away the illegals and put true citizens in their place. Now you have citizens who didn't obtain the job through false identification, who will be held to the fullest extent of government compensation and taxation standards, and who you know won't simply wire the money back across the border.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just in case it wasn't clear that there might, just might, be a racial element to the AZ law...... some more FAIL from Arizona.

[balthazar]

So.... the ENTIRE STATE of Arizona is racist ?? Wow, wonder how none of us have heard of that 'fact' up until a few years ago at best, and AZ being a state for just about 100 years now, too.

[CSpec]

How is what he said at all backwards? Where did he say anything about banning companies from filling positions? How about filling positions with the many unemployed legal citizens? How is it good to give jobs away to illegals? You are literally outsourcing your work to another country on your home turf. It is absurd.

This is why I say you're anti-immigration in general, not anti-illegal immigration.

[A Horse With No Name]

So.... the ENTIRE STATE of Arizona is racist ?? Wow, wonder how none of us have heard of that 'fact' up until a few years ago at best, and AZ being a state for just about 100 years now, too.

He's saying there is a racist element in Arizona and Arizona law.

You could say the same thing about Ohio. Was washing my truck at a car wash...guy comes up and explains that there is a detail shop down the street, that my hands are white, and that they shouldn't be doing "nigger work."

Nigger work is for nigger hands....your hands aren't black....give that work to a nigger..."

All I wanted was a clean truck...hmmm.

Ohio is an astonishingly racist place sometimes.

[balthazar]

^ You two (Nick, CSpec) aren't having the same discussion... or at least not on the same terms.

'unemployed legal citizens' are quite frequently also immigrants. Advocating jobs for legal citizens isn't specifically nor remotely 'against immigration in general'.

[Drew Dowdell]

So.... the ENTIRE STATE of Arizona is racist ?? Wow, wonder how none of us have heard of that 'fact' up until a few years ago at best, and AZ being a state for just about 100 years now, too.

uhm... no, just a very vocal, bat &#036;h&#33; crazy segment of the AZ population is racist..... it's true everywhere, but more true in AZ apparently.

[balthazar]

He's saying there is a racist element in Arizona and Arizona law.

There is a racist element in every single state of the U.S. and from every ethnicity in the U.S.. This, no one denies (well... some will deny that). BTW- AZ is very nearly one-third hispanic/latino (legal citizens).

SB1070 however, has zero elements of racism in it- it is the fearmongers & illegal immigrant activists that are 'predicting' the way the law could be used that could be classified as 'racist'.

We have elected & appointed officials coming out against the bill, then admitting under oath they haven't read it. Assuming they've subsequently read it, one wonders why they are not then advocating the repeal of the federal laws that SB1070 upholds, and declaring those laws as 'racist'... but they aren't. Because for them, it's not about the law at all- it's about power & politics.

[CSpec]

There is a racist element in every single state of the U.S. and from every ethnicity in the U.S.. This, no one denies (well... some will deny that). BTW- AZ is very nearly one-third hispanic/latino (legal citizens).

SB1070 however, has zero elements of racism in it- it is the fearmongers & illegal immigrant activists that are 'predicting' the way the law could be used that could be classified as 'racist'.

We have elected & appointed officials coming out against the bill, then admitting under oath they haven't read it. Assuming they've subsequently read it, one wonders why they are not then advocating the repeal of the federal laws that SB1070 upholds, and declaring those laws as 'racist'... but they aren't. Because for them, it's not about the law at all- it's about power & politics.

Again, you're ignoring our friend Sheriff Joe.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is a racist element in every single state of the U.S. and from every ethnicity in the U.S.. This, no one denies (well... some will deny that). BTW- AZ is very nearly one-third hispanic/latino (legal citizens).

SB1070 however, has zero elements of racism in it- it is the fearmongers & illegal immigrant activists that are 'predicting' the way the law could be used that could be classified as 'racist'.

We have elected & appointed officials coming out against the bill, then admitting under oath they haven't read it. Assuming they've subsequently read it, one wonders why they are not then advocating the repeal of the federal laws that SB1070 upholds, and declaring those laws as 'racist'... but they aren't. Because for them, it's not about the law at all- it's about power & politics.

And again you're ignoring that cops can pull you over for a seat-belt check if they want.

[balthazar]

Sheriff Joe didn't write the law. I was addressing the claim that the law is 'racist'.

Sheriff Joe may or may not be, I've not made him a case study, therefore I'm not going to 'not read the bill yet come out against him anyway'.

Cops pull people over in every state every day for a seat belt check if they want to. Drivers are required to produce their paperwork or be detained until said paperwork is verified.

Non-citizen immigrants are still required by federal law to carry their passports at all times. IMO, this is also not racist, because in neither federal nor AZ law does it single out a specific ethnicity, only on a basis of citizenry.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ok... how about we state it this way; The law itself is not racist, however it was written with racist motivation in order to enable racism.

Remember, the poll tax wasn't racist, neither were literacy tests for voting.....it just happened to disproportionally effect "colored" people.... which was the intent behind those laws in the first place.

THERE IS NO LAW IN THE U.S. THAT SAYS I MUST CARRY PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP WITH ME AT ALL TIMES!

And since that law hasn't been written, how can I possibly get locked up for 3 days in jail while my birth certificate is attempted to be located 3 timezones away? It's wrongful imprisonment. If I get pulled over in PA for speeding, I have to produce a driver's license, registration, and proof of insurance. A driver's license is not proof of citizenship. My passport is kept in a safe.... you're not getting to it if I'm in jail.

[A Horse With No Name]

Ok... how about we state it this way; The law itself is not racist, however it was written with racist motivation in order to enable racism.

Remember, the poll tax wasn't racist, neither were literacy tests for voting.....it just happened to disproportionally effect "colored" people.... which was the intent behind those laws in the first place.

THERE IS NO LAW IN THE U.S. THAT SAYS I MUST CARRY PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP WITH ME AT ALL TIMES!

And since that law hasn't been written, how can I possibly get locked up for 3 days in jail while my birth certificate is attempted to be located 3 timezones away? It's wrongful imprisonment. If I get pulled over in PA for speeding, I have to produce a driver's license, registration, and proof of insurance. A driver's license is not proof of citizenship. My passport is kept in a safe.... you're not getting to it if I'm in jail.

meh...details....

[balthazar]

Oldsmoboi ~ >>"Ok... how about we state it this way; The law itself is not racist, however it was written with racist motivation in order to enable racism."<<

Go ahead and detail that by how the law is exactly written.

Better yet, prove the motivation of those who wrote it.

Do not overlook any other bills/laws that the same people that were behind SB1070 have been involved with, since motivation there has likely legitimized & legalized racism in those areas of law enforcement, too.

Since all AZ's law does is enforce federal law, it is the federal law that has to be 'racially motivated to allow racism'.

Why is NO ONE protesting that law, ESP including those in government who are so against the AZ re-statement ????

>>"THERE IS NO LAW IN THE U.S. THAT SAYS I MUST CARRY PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP WITH ME AT ALL TIMES! "<<

^ The above is correct, but allow me to remind you; you are a U.S. citizen.

Non-citizen immigrants are mandated by federal law to carry proof of being legally permitted to be in the U.S. 24/7 :

>>Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal

possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant

to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall

be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be

imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.<<

Read it HERE, section (e).

24/7 proof of ID for non-citizens is ALREADY FEDERAL LAW. This is inarguable.

Meh... details, indeed.