Detroit's Pony Car Dilemma

[PontiacTechNJ]

Disposing of myths that hurt my take home pay is not being an apologist !

I should run GM marketing !

[turbo200]

GM only invented the automatic trans

GM just started buying Aysin crap with the equinox and now the solstice , big deal , I am sure we will have big problems on the torrent like we did on the RAV 4 back in 2000 when I worked on Toyotas

GM s 6 speed is the most advanced auto overdrive in the world with some of the highest torque capacities anywhere

Benz and BMW buy lots of GM Hydramatic transmissions

Lots of Toyotas use GM Harrison Radiators ,and condensers , Delco radios Alternators , batteries

one of the reasons the General spun off Delphi was all of the outside car companies buying GM components 

Does Toyota build or ever build a 505 hp , naturally aspirated engine ?

Does Toyota Build or ever built a 469 hp 4.4 litre engine ?

Does Toyota build or ever built a 400 hp engine ?

Does Toyota really think they can take over the full size truck market the way they may have sold some camries ?

How come every V6 pickup and 4 runner built between 90-99 needed their head gaskets replaced (toyota gleefully covered those under warranty - must have been fearful of a congressional investigation !!) 2 and 4 cam. Yet they went to the mat to avoid covering sludged up camry and solara and minivan and avalon V6s , causing much damage to their consumer friendley reputation

you'll have to face the facts sooner than later that this is an objective board full of objective GM fans who are willing to dissect the real problems going on at our favorite automaker. GM may make all these world class parts, but a car is the sum of the whole parts, and in too many cases the results of those parts have come far short of what Toyota and others are building. The market has responded by forgetting GM---the problem today is too many people have placed GM on the "$h!" list. GM must get off this list through compelling design and compelling quality and consistently offering the best of what it can offer to all customers who are within reach. This is not the '90's or the '80's or the '70's when GM was an automatic choice for many. This is 2006 and GM is the automatic choice to cross off the list.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Can I just say something here? I'd like to bet that a little less than half of the comments a few pages back (and a few other threads) relate to F_O_G and the content of his posts (much of it personal attacks, the same faded message, and the occasional random junk).

Anyhow, a few pages back, people listed a bunch of cars with a V8 that can't register under $30,000 on the wallet version of the Fujita scale. Well, the Mustang GT with a V8, the target of the upcoming V8 camaro and Challenger, goes for $24,000. I think that some of the cars listed were a - huh? - Magnum and 300C? Well, last time I checked, a Camaro was not a full-size wagon and sedan. I think that plays a role in cost, right?

And as to the statement that went something like "Toyota doesn't sell muscle cars, so why should GM?", well GM is not Toyota. GM actually has a very storied history full of great cars, and that history can be pulled to make great cars, regardless to if it competes with Toyota or not. Actually, not giving an honest damn and a nickel about Toyota and focusing on what should be done can only help GM.

However, there are kinks to work out to get things going again. The big General is still having those '90s-era rebadge blues - which sounds to me like the automotive industry's cocaine - and it's finding it hard to kick the habit. Just look at the upcoming G5/Pursuit and you'll get it. And management still has to shape up a bit, too.

Edited February 15, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[Chicagoland]

Toyota Supra was a fast car, but still.

No question, all 3 "Pony cars'' should be made, to amke $$ and to bring in lookers. Then some may look at a newer sedan and realize they are not as bad as 15 year old models.

[Hudson]

GM only invented the automatic trans

And this means nothing. They invented the fluid-drive type of automatic...there were automatics before that, and GM didn't invent them. Try again.

GM just started buying Aysin crap with the equinox and now the solstice , big deal , I am sure we will have big problems on the torrent like we did on the RAV 4 back in 2000 when I worked on Toyotas

It's "Aisin" and it's a different unit from the transmission used in the Rav4. Try again.

GM s 6 speed is the most advanced auto overdrive in the world with some of the highest torque capacities anywhere

Oh...wait. The Bugatti Veyron has a 7-speed handling torque that would shred any GM transmission. Try again.

Benz and BMW buy lots of GM Hydramatic transmissions

Not in years. Try again.

Lots of Toyotas use GM Harrison Radiators ,and condensers , Delco radios Alternators , batteries

Lots of GM products use Denso parts too...partially owned by Toyota. Try again.

one of the reasons the General spun off Delphi was all of the outside car companies buying GM components

Delphi was relyiing on GM for over 80% of their business. Try again.

Does Toyota build or ever build a 505 hp , naturally aspirated engine ?

And how many will GM sell? And why should Toyota care? Try again.

Does Toyota Build or ever built a 469 hp 4.4 litre engine ?

See above. Try again.

Does Toyota build or ever built a 400 hp engine ?

See above. Try again.

Does Toyota really think they can take over the full size truck market the way they may have sold some camries ?

Not in the next few years, but in time, perhaps. What's your point?

How come every V6 pickup and 4 runner built between 90-99 needed their head gaskets replaced (toyota gleefully covered those under warranty - must have been fearful of a congressional investigation !!) 2 and 4 cam. Yet they went to the mat to avoid covering sludged up camry and solara and minivan and avalon V6s , causing much damage to their consumer friendley reputation

And yet Toyota's Camry outsells EVERY GM car in the US, Toyota's Sienna outsells all GM minivans combined, and the Tacoma outsells the best-selling GM small pickup in the US. Your point? Try again.

Do you expect the members of this site to just cower to your (lack of) knowledge? C'mon!

Start a debate, not an argument. Try a discussion.

[regfootball]

Can I just say something here? I'd like to bet that a little less than half of the comments a few pages back (and a few other threads) relate to F_O_G and the content of his posts (much of it personal attacks, the same faded message, and the occasional random junk).

Anyhow, a few pages back, people listed a bunch of cars with a V8 that can't register under $30,000 on the wallet version of the Fujita scale. Well, the Mustang GT with a V8, the target of the upcoming V8 camaro and Challenger, goes for $24,000. I think that some of the cars listed were a - huh? - Magnum and 300C? Well, last time I checked, a Camaro was not a full-size wagon and sedan. I think that plays a role in cost, right?

And as to the statement that went something like "Toyota doesn't sell muscle cars, so why should GM?", well GM is not Toyota. GM actually has a very storied history full of great cars, and that history can be pulled to make great cars, regardless to if it competes with Toyota or not. Actually, not giving an honest damn and a nickel about Toyota and focusing on what should be done can only help GM.

However, there are kinks to work out to get things going again. The big General is still having those '90s-era rebadge blues - which sounds to me like the automotive industry's cocaine - and it's finding it hard to kick the habit. Just look at the upcoming G5/Pursuit and you'll get it. And management still has to shape up a bit, too.

per carsdirect.com, the cheapest mustang v8 config (if you can find one) is 25,860.

that's with painted 17" wheels and stock stereo etc. add an automatic and you are at almost 27 grand. the Mustang GT premium is another 1500 or so on top of that. Ford has been using way low MSRP's lately.

add three years of price increases and also the fact that GM's list prices are typically extremely high, much higher than Ford. Again, no way that car comes to market with a v8 for less than 30 grand. All you folks who plan on saving your pennies for 6 years to buy a three year old used camaro had better get that second job because you need to be saving 20's from the cash machine, not the change left from the 12 pack of miller high life after a beer run.

If GM does come to market with a sub 30k v8 camaro, it will be an extreme stripper model.

Hell, the 02 Camaros and Firebirds exceeded 30 grand frequently.

two words...PIPE DREAM

I just wanna know, will the new Camaro get T-TOPS?????

Edited February 15, 2006 by regfootball

[Sixty8panther]

T-tops went out of style with Leg-warmers, Blue Blocker Sunglasses and Bleached jeans. :AH-HA_wink:

T-tops were only really a lame attempt to bring back the oepn air feel of a hardtop. I'll take a hardtop body style over T-tops anyday. T-tops would look horrible on the Camaro concept, they only work well on Grand Nationals & 2nd/3rd/4th gen F-bodys because the C-pillar is flush with the side door glass.

[razoredge]

When did the G6 get a GXP version?

Dude, you don't even know what you're talking about! Just relentlessly bashing, that's what I see.

Good call, Im sure you and I are not the only ones that see this relentless bashing by the gang

[razoredge]

I assume you mean GTP. What is it with the Epsilon cars that they just don't seem as sporting as the class leaders? G6 can't seem to keep up with Altima, Accord, Mazda6, all major contenders, because it has an "unathletic feel"--translation: not nimble and rolls a lot, even though it may grip well and hold the road well. 9-3 also loses comparisons thanks to this and an underpowered engine for the class. Malibu gets away with it since its basic mission is not to be more on the sporting side. The issue is G6 has a sporty flair to it as part of its mission, raison d'etre, and it fails to succeed. Your opinion gives weight to my belief that more work needs to be done on the platform, especially if it is to underpin a Cadillac in Europe and future, hopefully better Saabs and Pontiacs and Chevys.

Being how I've read your Mr objectivity I figure its safe to point out the fact to you that cars that are not nimble or have "rolls a lot" do NOT give class standard results in transitional handling tests........nor do they set class standard or class leading track lap time results........Im sure you are aware of this........with all your driving experience and knowledge.......so please, how about showing that objectivity

[Hudson]

T-tops went out of style with Leg-warmers, Blue Blocker Sunglasses and Bleached jeans.  :AH-HA_wink:

Were you digging through my closet again?

[razoredge]

you'll have to face the facts sooner than later that this is an objective board full of objective GM fans

you might better accept the fact that this is a GM board that has REAL GM owners/dirver members that are sick and tired of all the relentless bashing and sobbing up each and every post

who are willing to dissect the real problems going on

everyones a critic......some of us have more face than to be seen bitchin and moanin, nit picking, degradeing, generalizing, and exagerating all the while acting like they are special for it.

at our favorite automaker.

Please explain how this is again ? Im not seeing this GM fan thing, Im seeing a college business project or some kind of personal agenda, I simply have not seen one shred of evidence that ties you in with General Motors.......hows that for objectivity ?

GM may make all these world class parts, but a car is the sum of the whole parts, and in too many cases the results of those parts have come far short of what Toyota and others are building. The market has responded by forgetting GM---the problem today is too many people have placed GM on the "$h!" list. GM must get off this list through compelling design and compelling quality and consistently offering the best of what it can offer to all customers who are within reach. This is not the '90's or the '80's or the '70's when GM was an automatic choice for many. This is 2006 and GM is the automatic choice to cross off the list.

jut more highly predictable garbage that you have typed into each and every thred on this site, spreading the dark cloud. I could tear this paragraph "apart with my hands" but why bother.

[razoredge]

And this means nothing. They invented the fluid-drive type of automatic...there were automatics before that, and GM didn't invent them. Try again.

It's "Aisin" and it's a different unit from the transmission used in the Rav4. Try again.

Oh...wait. The Bugatti Veyron has a 7-speed handling torque that would shred any GM transmission. Try again.

Not in years. Try again.

Lots of GM products use Denso parts too...partially owned by Toyota. Try again.

Delphi was relyiing on GM for over 80% of their business. Try again.

And how many will GM sell? And why should Toyota care? Try again.

See above. Try again.

See above. Try again.

Not in the next few years, but in time, perhaps. What's your point?

And yet Toyota's Camry outsells EVERY GM car in the US, Toyota's Sienna outsells all GM minivans combined, and the Tacoma outsells the best-selling GM small pickup in the US. Your point? Try again.

Do you expect the members of this site to just cower to your (lack of) knowledge? C'mon!

Start a debate, not an argument. Try a discussion.

No !..........what was your point ?

Whos doing the arguement here ? Might be a big surprise to you gang members but alot of us dont come here looking for an arguement........we come here because we actually own and drive and LIKE General Motors automobiles...............HELLFRIGGINO !

Do you expect owners, drivers and REAL GM fans to cower to you?

rather than cowering to what ever your problem was here, how about this? " GM s 6 speed is the most advanced auto overdrive in the world with some of the highest torque capacities anywhere" first please notice the word SOME ! Then realize you just shoved a million dollar car in a guys face that was only thinking about production cars for people to drive.

Now Id like to be cute and say "try again" but I'm not into "cute" so I'll be more realistic and honest.......why dont you find a Toyota dealers web site and hang out there ?

[razoredge]

Topic title : Detroit's Pony Car Dilemma

Yes GM should develope and finish the platform for the Camaro and a Buick and Pontiac flagship as well as Holden. While at the same time developing a better midsize conventional car platform......which Im sure they are ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! and tightening up on the exisiting product that is currently on the market.

[Sixty8panther]

Were you digging through my closet again?

Nope, just the part of my memory banks where the yellow Dodge Shadow is parked.

[Flybrian]

So, are we going to talk about that article or pony cars or the GTO or the Mustang or what?

[Hudson]

Now Id like to be cute and say "try again" but I'm not into "cute" so I'll be more realistic and honest.......why dont you find a Toyota dealers web site and hang out there ?

Being an enthusiast is one thing...being blindly faithful is another. Did you read that original post? It was blowing smoke without the facts. What's wrong with wanting a DISCUSSION or a DEBATE instead of listing half-truths as "facts."

[Hudson]

Nope, just the part of my memory banks where the yellow Dodge Shadow is parked.

And you're in my garage?

[regfootball]

T-tops went out of style with Leg-warmers, Blue Blocker Sunglasses and Bleached jeans.  :AH-HA_wink:

T-tops were only really a lame attempt to bring back the oepn air feel of a hardtop. I'll take a hardtop body style over T-tops anyday. T-tops would look horrible on the Camaro concept, they only work well on Grand Nationals & 2nd/3rd/4th gen F-bodys because the C-pillar is flush with the side door glass.

a hot female friend of mine, whose sister own a hair salon, said that MULLETS are on the way back in, believe it or not....SOOOOO....maybe that means T-Tops would become trendy again too! I'm sad because its been too long since we had SWIVEL BUCKET SEATS.......

if the mullet actually does become style again, then things REALLY bode well for a new Camaro release!!!!!!!!

Edited February 15, 2006 by regfootball

[turbo200]

what's your personal agenda? settling a score with me?.......

[turbo200]

No !..........what was your point ?

Whos doing the arguement here ? Might be a big surprise to you gang members but alot of us dont come here looking for an arguement........we come here because we actually own and drive and LIKE General Motors automobiles...............HELLFRIGGINO !

Do you expect owners, drivers and REAL GM fans to cower to you?

rather than cowering to what ever your problem was here, how about this? " GM s 6 speed is the most advanced auto overdrive in the world with some of the highest torque capacities anywhere" first please notice the word SOME ! Then realize you just shoved a million dollar car in a guys face that was only thinking about production cars for people to drive.

Now Id like to be cute and say "try again" but I'm not into "cute" so I'll be more realistic and honest.......why dont you find a Toyota dealers web site and hang out there ?

try adding something of value next time.

[turbo200]

Being an enthusiast is one thing...being blindly faithful is another. Did you read that original post? It was blowing smoke without the facts. What's wrong with wanting a DISCUSSION or a DEBATE instead of listing half-truths as "facts."

agreed. original poster was not listening to the REAL discussion and instead listed a whole bunch of half-truths that were not relevant here.

[carman21]

Ok, why I need to even point this out I don't know.

Modern Pony cars are compact RWD coupes with a choice of usually two engines a powerful I-4 and a powerful V-6. Say a 2.4L 180hp I-4 and a 3.6L 270hp V-6

Modern Muscle Cars are midsize RWD coupes with a choice usually of either a powerful V-6 or a powerful V-8. Say a 3.6L 270hp V-6 & a 4.8L 360hp V-8. The numbers matter little just the engines. The V-8 hp rating may be closer to 400hp.

Toyota will never do this anytime in the next decade.

The Camaro doesn't target the youth market as much as it targets the former owners of 1960s and 1970s muscle & pony cars. Remember that even in the 60s. Dads bought the GTO sons bought the Firebird.

A new youth oriented pony car should be swamped with demand by 16-24 year old guys and girls. Despite the absence of a V-8 these cars would sell like hotcakes and they could be Zeta-based.GM would be wise to build pony cars. The 64 & 1/2 mustang was popular for a reason.

Nobody gets it yet. I do & I hope u do too.

[PontiacTechNJ]

And this means nothing. They invented the fluid-drive type of automatic...there were automatics before that, and GM didn't invent them. Try again.

It's "Aisin" and it's a different unit from the transmission used in the Rav4. Try again.

Oh...wait. The Bugatti Veyron has a 7-speed handling torque that would shred any GM transmission. Try again.

Not in years. Try again.

Lots of GM products use Denso parts too...partially owned by Toyota. Try again.

Delphi was relyiing on GM for over 80% of their business. Try again.

And how many will GM sell? And why should Toyota care? Try again.

See above. Try again.

See above. Try again.

Not in the next few years, but in time, perhaps. What's your point?

And yet Toyota's Camry outsells EVERY GM car in the US, Toyota's Sienna outsells all GM minivans combined, and the Tacoma outsells the best-selling GM small pickup in the US. Your point? Try again.

Do you expect the members of this site to just cower to your (lack of) knowledge? C'mon!

Start a debate, not an argument. Try a discussion.

Debate : Bugatti Veyron ? Get real , F1 cars have trannies that handle loads of torque too hahaha turd

Just bringing up technical points that lots of people including don't seem to understand .

Hydros were the original no clutch pedal automatic

Edited February 15, 2006 by PontiacTechNJ

[PontiacTechNJ]

And this means nothing. They invented the fluid-drive type of automatic...there were automatics before that, and GM didn't invent them. Try again.

It's "Aisin" and it's a different unit from the transmission used in the Rav4. Try again.

Oh...wait. The Bugatti Veyron has a 7-speed handling torque that would shred any GM transmission. Try again.

Not in years. Try again.

Lots of GM products use Denso parts too...partially owned by Toyota. Try again.

Delphi was relyiing on GM for over 80% of their business. Try again.

And how many will GM sell? And why should Toyota care? Try again.

See above. Try again.

See above. Try again.

Not in the next few years, but in time, perhaps. What's your point?

And yet Toyota's Camry outsells EVERY GM car in the US, Toyota's Sienna outsells all GM minivans combined, and the Tacoma outsells the best-selling GM small pickup in the US. Your point? Try again.

Do you expect the members of this site to just cower to your (lack of) knowledge? C'mon!

Start a debate, not an argument. Try a discussion.

So you are saying GM should not innovate but just use the same shopping cart that Toyota and all of these half assed car makers use and buy from the guy you claim as inferior ?

Back to the subject - CAMAROS RULE !

Edited February 15, 2006 by PontiacTechNJ

[Flybrian]

And I really must reiterate. The focus of this ARTICLE is about muscle cars and their market potential, not whatever the past 4 pages were about.

[razoredge]

And I really must reiterate. The focus of this ARTICLE is about muscle cars and their market potential, not whatever the past 4 pages were about.

now there was something of value........thank you !

[razoredge]

a hot female friend of mine, whose sister own a hair salon, said that MULLETS are on the way back in, believe it or not....SOOOOO....maybe that means T-Tops would become trendy again too!  I'm sad because its been too long since we had SWIVEL BUCKET SEATS.......

if the mullet actually does become style again, then things REALLY bode well for a new Camaro release!!!!!!!!

Hey Reg, ya never know, swivel bucket seats would be "class leading"

I gotta admit, as time goes on Im really finding myself quite interested in a G2 T/top TransAm........Id even grow my hair back..............if it would grow now it just looks more like Taxi Jim when Im over due........

Seriously I would think this Camaro would be convertable ized, though it might suffer torsional rigidity as well as the usual weight gains.

[Hudson]

Hydros were the original no clutch  pedal automatic

No. Check your facts.

GM is credited for developing their particular type of automatic, but these transmissions were hardly the first "no clutch pedal automatics."

So you are saying GM should not innovate but just use the same shopping cart that Toyota and all of these half assed car makers use and buy from the guy you claim as inferior ?

Where did I say that? Anyone thinking GM is the market leader in ANYTHING but market share needs to open their eyes. I'm not saying that they couldn't be, but they're currently not. Toyota (and many other REAL car companies) spend REAL amounts of money on R&D. GM should be spending MORE not less in tough times.

[razoredge]

No. Check your facts.

GM is credited for developing their particular type of automatic, but these transmissions were hardly the first "no clutch pedal automatics."

Where did I say that? Anyone thinking GM is the market leader in ANYTHING but market share needs to open their eyes. I'm not saying that they couldn't be, but they're currently not. Toyota (and many other REAL car companies) spend REAL amounts of money on R&D. GM should be spending MORE not less in tough times.

now theres an example of "not getting it"

[enzl]

If we're getting back to the original topic....

These cars HAVE to get made. The market is fracturing into smaller, more specialized runs of vehicles anyway. I'm assuming the the planned run of 100k produced (or less) will become the norm...I can't imagine a situation where a series of differentiated RWD products are a bad idea....If GM can do with the Zeta what DCX has done with the Caliber plant, there's plenty of room for a great mix of Chevy & Buick sedans, a GTO & the Camaro at one plant...

The columnist is dead wrong. The 400k seller is a dying breed....

[turbo200]

Where did I say that? Anyone thinking GM is the market leader in ANYTHING but market share needs to open their eyes. I'm not saying that they couldn't be, but they're currently not. Toyota (and many other REAL car companies) spend REAL amounts of money on R&D. GM should be spending MORE not less in tough times.

I couldn't agree more with what you say....yes we're straying to this topic again.....remember, this is c&g?.......

This is something most disparate with GM and other companies, and it's troubling to see you emphasize this as much as you do, knowing as much as you do.

[Sixty8panther]

FlyBrian: "So, are we going to talk about that article or pony cars or the GTO or the Mustang or what?"

That's the beauty of C&G, we go on tangents about T-tops, the 1980s, and forgetable Mopars.

I'm loving the Mr.T smiley. Now listen Sucka, I pity the fool who don't stay in school.

Reg:

There is one very interesting use for T-tops, thouhg personally I never had a chance to try out this feature on my '83 Firebird.

You know it involves "driving" your girlfriend with the tops off and her on top, yet there is no gas being burned.

Hudson:

Hold on to that yellow Shadow, look at all these Hemi cudas going for $200,000-$1mill. these days, perhaps some day your Shadow will be worth $200,000.

You know like after inflation, when a Big Mac costs $40,000. :wink:

[Hudson]

Hold on to that yellow Shadow, look at all these Hemi cudas going for $200,000-$1mill. these days, perhaps some day your Shadow will be worth $200,000.

You know like after inflation, when a Big Mac costs $40,000. :wink:

I only wish the Mopar muscle car I used to own (1982 Dodge Aries) would appreciate in value as much as these 1960s-1970s era Hemis have. But first, I'd have to buy back my old car.

The great thing about inflation is that one day, we'll all be millionaires.

[PontiacTechNJ]

I only wish the Mopar muscle car I used to own (1982 Dodge Aries) would appreciate in value as much as these 1960s-1970s era Hemis have. But first, I'd have to buy back my old car.

The great thing about inflation is that one day, we'll all be millionaires.

In 1938, General Motors developed the first line of cars to sport automatic transmission -- Oldsmobiles that offered "Hydra-Matic drive." The cars were introduced to the public in 1940. In 1941, Chrysler followed suit and introduced three different cars that offered their version of automatic drive, "Vacamatic" (later called "Fluid Drive"). Automatic transmission was a fairly common option on most American cars by 1948.

We steered over to the official Oldsmobile site to learn more about the innovative line of cars. In the History section of the site, we found an interactive timeline that offered a bit more information about Hydra-Matic drive:

It provided true clutchless driving with four forward speeds. Its fluid coupling between engine and transmission eliminated the clutch and its associated foot work. Olds made the breakthrough Hydra-Matic available on all models for only an extra $57.

Not only was GM the first to market with automatic transmission, according to Chrysler's site, Vacamatic was really only semi-automatic. It featured four speeds and would switch automatically between the two lower or two higher gears, but the driver needed to use the clutch to switch from a lower gear to a higher gear or vice versa.

So there you have it -- in this race, Oldsmobile was the clear winner.

[Hudson]

So there you have it -- in this race, Oldsmobile was the clear winner.

I know that story...and I don't argue the timing. But there were "automatic" and "clutch-pedal less" transmissions before Oldsmobile. Your race winner is not as clear as you would have others think.

[PontiacTechNJ]

I know that story...and I don't argue the timing. But there were "automatic" and "clutch-pedal less" transmissions before Oldsmobile. Your race winner is not as clear as you would have others think.

for the most part that is all GM knows - Winning Races --brother Edited February 16, 2006 by PontiacTechNJ