Detroit's Pony Car Dilemma

[evok]

LOL... Yep, because that's ALL they sell... And, after all Toyota doesn't sell ANY cars to fleets now do they?

Less than 15% for the Camry compared to over 50% for the Impala and GP.

I do not think it is a matter IF they sell to fleet but how much!

Edited February 10, 2006 by evok

[turbo200]

Less than 15% for the Camry compared to over 50% for the Impala and GP.

I do not think it is a matter IF they sell to fleet but how much!

yes, the fact that Impala and Malibu only sell just over 100k to the public means they are not accepting and buying it on thier own as much as Chevy would have us believe....which means there is a big problem with both.

Camry sells something like 65k units to fleet, but at least 360k PEOPLE buy them per year.

[RBB]

Less than 15% for the Camry compared to over 50% for the Impala and GP.

I do not think it is a matter IF they sell to fleet but how much!

Is there a place to find fleet sales numbers, either for fleet and total retail sales separately, or for fleet as a percentage of total sales?

-RBB

[evok]

Is there a place to find fleet sales numbers, either for fleet and total retail sales separately, or for fleet as a percentage of total sales?

-RBB

Turbo posted this link a few days ago.

http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2005/cars_web.pdf

[Sixty8panther]

Some good points are being thrown around i this thead but there's also a mountain of B.S. A sale is a sale, pure and simple. There's plenty of peolpe who buy cars like Camrys and Civics based on some Kumquat's recomendation in C.R. and NOTHING else.... that's just as much of a "fleet" sale as Enterprise buying an Impala LS.

I never said taht you're nit alowed ot criticize GM here, I do it all the effin time. I do however think that ceratin people never have ANY-THING good to say fior the General... which to me means they are on the wrong forum.

[toyoguy]

Toyota doesnt know muscle...

my parents toyota camary v6 with 194 hp seems as sluggish as a 142 hp HHR... or cobalt...

Toyota's transmissions suck all the power out of their engines... either that or thier engines are over rated.

#1

your comparing an engine and tranny that have been around for ~15yrs now.

#2

your parents obviously are pumping 87 octane

#3

Toyota just replaced the V6 and 5spd auto w/completely new pieces, so your argument is meaningless in today's context

The Lexus tranny is now an all new 8spd.

Edited February 11, 2006 by toyoguy

[toyoguy]

when did a GTO ever have 425 hp ?

Widely-accepted actual output of the RA IV.

yeah and the GTO traps 115 through the 1/4mi

[Satty]

68, not all sales are created equal. Do you really think Enterprise pays sticker for each Impala? Nope, just like how they dont pay sticker for each Camry. The difference is that far fewer Camrys are sold to fleets, or at huge discounts, so they make more profit overall.

[PontiacTechNJ]

#1

your comparing an engine and tranny that have been around for ~15yrs now.

#2

your parents obviously are pumping 87 octane

#3

Toyota just replaced the V6 and 5spd auto w/completely new pieces, so your argument is meaningless in today's context

The Lexus tranny is now an all new 8spd.

Toyota BUYS their trannys from Aisyn , Nissan engines always feel stronget than Toyota across the board and I am currently enjoying the Pics of Toyotas latest , laughable effort of a full size truck Tundra 2 .

Did the Tundra sell any better than the T100 ?

[enzl]

Toyota BUYS their trannys from Aisyn , Nissan engines always feel stronget than Toyota across the board and I am currently enjoying the Pics of Toyotas latest , laughable effort of a full size truck Tundra 2 .

Did the Tundra sell any better than the T100 ?

We'll see about the new Tundra...however, they just sold the most ever last year, IIRC, about 125k, and an average of 100k yr....

[Drew Dowdell]

These are all tough decisions. Detroit needs excitement to meet the foreign challenge. Toyota, for example, doesn't sell special muscle cars but put lots of muscle in its ordinary cars. That new Camry family sedan coming this spring, for example, will offer a 268 horsepower, six-cylinder engine.

Whoopdie flippin do!

Pontiac and Buick have been offering 240-260hp in family cars for years now.

The 268hp Camry is only the top model. Get a top model Impala and you get a 303hp V8.

Chevy and Olds had a DOHC 215hp V6 in 1994 while Toyota was rockin it with 188hp and Accord could only be had with a 4 cylinder, 145hp Max.

One thing HonYota has never done is out HP GM in a given class.

[Drew Dowdell]

#1

your comparing an engine and tranny that have been around for ~15yrs now.

#2

your parents obviously are pumping 87 octane

#3

Toyota just replaced the V6 and 5spd auto w/completely new pieces, so your argument is meaningless in today's context

The Lexus tranny is now an all new 8spd.

#1. As people frequently like to point out, GM's engines and transmissions have been around for a long time now. No complaints about sluggishness.

#2. Except for the S/C 3800, GMs generally require 87 to get their advertised horsepower.

#3 So the jury is still out on those..... and great, the car shift 4 times before I make it to 25 MPH....smooth. Lexus's new 8-speed is only for the highest end model.

The number of gears race is getting a bit rediculous. GM should just trump them all and start sourcing 16-speeds from allison for all their vehicles. Would that shut you up Toyoguy? A good 5-speed, 6-speed, or CVT is all any car needs.

[Hudson]

Toyota BUYS their trannys from Aisyn , Nissan engines always feel stronget than Toyota across the board and I am currently enjoying the Pics of Toyotas latest , laughable effort of a full size truck Tundra 2 .

Did the Tundra sell any better than the T100 ?

And I'd bet that Toyota owns part of Aisin. GM buys transmissions from Getrag, Honda, ZF, etc...wholly independent companies from GM.

The Tundra just about tripled the sales of the T100. And Toyota will most likely double (if not triple) sales again with the new model.

[The O.C.]

Call me stupid but I could have sworn that I just saw a Chevrolet ad saying they're the No. 1 in car sales in the No. American market. WTF else do they need to do to be considered "competative"?

Next question.

How about far less reliance on fleet sales to hit that "#1" bragging right?

(62% fleet sales for Impala, anyone?)

[The O.C.]

If you don't want the big V-6 in the Camry, you are stuck with the anemic 4 cyl.  At least with GM, the base engine doesn't suck.

Camry's L4 is FAR from anemic.....when have YOU driven one?

[The O.C.]

*Sigh* always a loophole with you...    Why are you so hell bent on snowballing Toyotas products while raggin' on GM constantly? 

He's not.....he's only stating a simple fact....

[The O.C.]

Umm... Okay... Heard of the 303 hp Impala SS and Grand Prix GXP by chance there Flint?

What total percentage of Impala and GP sales are made up of SS and GXP models?

Toyota offers a 268hp V6 model in a moderately-equipped (and moderately-priced) LE and SE versions....not JUST the top XLE.....

[The O.C.]

Yeah, because I'VE never been critical of GM or anything... And most of the one-liner-criticism pushed at GM here ISN'T constructive, it's just said to piss people like me and 68 off because we're actually individuals who don't chant along with the rest of the crowd.

I think they pegged the 3 series fine wth the CTS and GTO.

Actually, IMHO, most of the people on this site are open-minded about not JUST GM....but about their competition in general.

MOST of the people on this site DON'T seem to be blinded by their loyalty or enthusiasm for GM.

AND neither the CTS (as good as it is) nor the GTO are anywhere CLOSE to the level of product that the BMW 3-series is.

[The O.C.]

LOL... Yep, because that's ALL they sell... And, after all Toyota doesn't sell ANY cars to fleets now do they?

You ask for competitive mid sizers.

Impala (Probably the best)

Lacrosse (Not a bad car)

Grand Prix GXP

G6 (Plenty of people seem to like it, especially YOUNG people)

Aura ('nuff said)

Toyota DOES sell it's share of fleet cars....but it's a FRACTION of what GM does.

Impala, LaCrosse, Grand Prix GXP? OLD cars based upon the original W-body from 1988 with basically new skins inside and out. BIG on the outside....cramped on the inside....4-speed automatic transmissions and pushrod V6s (except the LaCrosse 3.6L.)

G6? After my rental experience with a GXP just this last week, it's an attractively styled car with one of GM's best interiors.....but with absolutely unforgiveable body rigidity and structure stiffness. (My rental creaked, groaned, and rattled going over bumps. You could hear the doors creaking in their housings when traversing ridges in the road.) It had only 13K miles on it but was a complete mess.....ugh. Plus, it had lots of body roll and didn't feel all that athletic (just like C&D felt in the recent comparo.)

Aura? GM has a real chance there.....let's hope the execution is as good as the exterior and interior styling.

[The O.C.]

yes, the fact that Impala and Malibu only sell just over 100k to the public means they are not accepting and buying it on thier own as much as Chevy would have us believe....which means there is a big problem with both.

Camry sells something like 65k units to fleet, but at least 360k PEOPLE buy them per year.

Absolutely a beautiful point and something EVERYONE should remember.

The REAL question is HOW MANY people are choosing their mode of transportation with their OWN money?

[The O.C.]

Some good points are being thrown around i this thead but there's also a mountain of B.S. A sale is a sale, pure and simple. There's plenty of peolpe who buy cars like Camrys and Civics based on some Kumquat's recomendation in C.R. and NOTHING else.... that's just as much of a "fleet" sale as Enterprise buying an Impala LS.

I never said taht you're nit alowed ot criticize GM here, I do it all the effin time. I do however think that ceratin people never have ANY-THING good to say fior the General... which to me means they are on the wrong forum.

Dude you are totally missing the point.

The question is....how PROFITABLE is GM on the sales they make?

How PROFITABLE are the GM dealers when they sell a new GM car?

The answer is on fleet sales, GM actually loses money (but they keep plants running.) We've all seen the reports on how GM is continually losing money in their N.A. vehicle group...despite any of their sales accomplishments. Other (import) mfgrs aren't in nearly as dire of a situation (comparing sales versus profiability.)

Dealers don't make money selling new GM cars when they have to discount them so drastically. Dealers make money selling pre-owned cars and by increasing their dealership absorption rate (how much service and parts revenue contributes to profitability and covering dealership expenses.)

[Drew Dowdell]

Dude you are totally missing the point.

The question is....how PROFITABLE is GM on the sales they make?

How PROFITABLE are the GM dealers when they sell a new GM car?

The answer is on fleet sales, GM actually loses money (but they keep plants running.)  We've all seen the reports on how GM is continually losing money in their N.A. vehicle group...despite any of their sales accomplishments.  Other (import) mfgrs aren't in nearly as dire of a situation (comparing sales versus profiability.)

Dealers don't make money selling new GM cars when they have to discount them so drastically.  Dealers make money selling pre-owned cars and by increasing their dealership absorption rate (how much service and parts revenue contributes to profitability and covering dealership expenses.)

1. Profits are affected by overhead costs. GM's are $1500 more expensive regarless of the car they build.

2. GM has to keep the mills cranking and selling to fleet simply because of these overhead costs.

3. GM has to try and cheap out on the designs simply because if they didn't they couldn't be price competitive and make money due to their over head costs.

Could GM build a car that would kill the Camry? Sure... and they'd sell every one. Except to remain price competitive they'd have to sell them all at a lose OR bump up the price to where a comparible Camry is 3k cheaper then an equal quality Malibu.

[razoredge]

Actually, IMHO, most of the people on this site are open-minded about not JUST GM....but about their competition in general. 

MOST of the people on this site DON'T seem to be blinded by their loyalty or enthusiasm for GM.

AND neither the CTS (as good as it is) nor the GTO are anywhere CLOSE to the level of product that the BMW 3-series is.

Wonder why Cobalt SS is smokin the RWD 3 series BMW's in Grand Am ?

Perhaps that cheap dash plastic is giving them a weight advantage ?

[razoredge]

Toyota DOES sell it's share of fleet cars....but it's a FRACTION of what GM does.

Impala, LaCrosse, Grand Prix GXP?  OLD cars based upon the original W-body from 1988 with basically new skins inside and out.  BIG on the outside....cramped on the inside....4-speed automatic transmissions and pushrod V6s (except the LaCrosse 3.6L.)

all BS, much has been changed, about the only thing that stems back to 88 is the floor pan.....period. Not cramped on the inside...go pack yourself in the back of a Honda....and stay there ! 4 sp auto......BFD !.......OHV engines........BFD !

G6?  After my rental experience with a GXP just this last week, it's an attractively styled car with one of GM's best interiors.....but with absolutely unforgiveable body rigidity and structure stiffness.  (My rental creaked, groaned, and rattled going over bumps.  You could hear the doors creaking in their housings when traversing ridges in the road.)  It had only 13K miles on it but was a complete mess.....ugh.  Plus, it had lots of body roll and didn't feel all that athletic (just like C&D felt in the recent comparo.)

WOW  all rattly and all like that after only 13K.......woo,hoo......one of the first GMs to be so CRAPPY !.......Hey, I believe you !    Funny how that non athletic car had top lateral G's and second fastest in the slalom......taint it ! Just like the GP GXP and GTO did........I want me some of that there non athletisizm. Ill have to write a letter to C&D first though.......to get their permission and all 

Aura?  GM has a real chance there.....let's hope the execution is as good as the exterior and interior styling.

Aura......aura.......aura.... .... wonder why you rice humpers arent all over this one.......its a Aurora 6 years late to the party    Only the styling is looking a bit unrefined and knotchy......then its got that saturin thing going on in the grill..........its just such a ...........hoot !

[razoredge]

Dude you are totally missing the point.

The question is....how PROFITABLE is GM on the sales they make?

How PROFITABLE are the GM dealers when they sell a new GM car?

The answer is on fleet sales, GM actually loses money (but they keep plants running.)  We've all seen the reports on how GM is continually losing money in their N.A. vehicle group...despite any of their sales accomplishments.  Other (import) mfgrs aren't in nearly as dire of a situation (comparing sales versus profiability.)

Dealers don't make money selling new GM cars when they have to discount them so drastically.  Dealers make money selling pre-owned cars and by increasing their dealership absorption rate (how much service and parts revenue contributes to profitability and covering dealership expenses.)

We've been through this before. All your "fleet" sales are not rental agencies. There is a vast amount of government owned Impala and who knows what else. Also anyone knows a great place to do business is our government. Its time to turn out the lights the day our governments start sending American payed employees out on the road in Toyotas and Hondas, Kias and Hyundias...though Im sure thats something someone like OC and gang would love. More ammunition to get more people to hate GM's.

Then your all (you know.....the gang) clamping on the "fleet sales" like a piece of driftwood in a flood when the truth is they are no more discounted than any sale that has incentives, blowout sales, price reductions, or sells after much haggling........and after all, what were total W body sales last year ?

clamping on to fleet sales would be like clamping on to cheap Korean sales when we all know there are extreme economic problems within this country today that is destroying a vast share of the American workforces way of life.........yet they arent affecting you are the OC ? Cant see it from your house can you OC ?..... So you turn a blind eye to the reality because its far to hard for you..........except....... you did have that little problem with some poor richy perhaps having to move to Tenn and loosing status amounst you OCers......but thats a whole nother picture...right ?

[zhawk]

If a new Camaro shares a platform with a couple of other cars, then the business case gets so much stronger.

But even alone, I can easily be a car to bring potential customers into to the dealerships, especially if it is affordable. The Vette draws a lot of attention from the people I work with but an affordable high performance couple has got some of these Airmen excited.

[Mr Plow 2500HD]

If Toyota, Honda and Nissan are so great then why is it a sign of wealth and status in Japan to own a Lincoln or Caddy? The most popular car to customize is the Friggin Astro van!!! Sales are sales stop bickering about fleet versus retail, when fleets are done with cars the sell them to actual people. IF they were able to resell certain models then they wouldnt buy them. Its what you get for your money plain and simple

Edited February 12, 2006 by Mr Plow 2500HD

[pow]

Toyota DOES sell it's share of fleet cars....but it's a FRACTION of what GM does.

Impala, LaCrosse, Grand Prix GXP?  OLD cars based upon the original W-body from 1988 with basically new skins inside and out.  BIG on the outside....cramped on the inside....4-speed automatic transmissions and pushrod V6s (except the LaCrosse 3.6L.)

G6?  After my rental experience with a GXP just this last week, it's an attractively styled car with one of GM's best interiors.....but with absolutely unforgiveable body rigidity and structure stiffness.  (My rental creaked, groaned, and rattled going over bumps.  You could hear the doors creaking in their housings when traversing ridges in the road.)  It had only 13K miles on it but was a complete mess.....ugh.  Plus, it had lots of body roll and didn't feel all that athletic (just like C&D felt in the recent comparo.)

Clearly that's irrelevant, OC. What matters most is how fast it can circumnavigate a 300-ft circle.

[Sixty8panther]

I've driven plenty of 4-cyl Camrys... everything from 1988-ealry 2000s. They're all just-barelly-adequate for a car costing $18,000 nevermind $23,000 or whatever the high end of a Camry LE is these days.

[regfootball]

Wonder why Cobalt SS is smokin the RWD 3 series BMW's in Grand Am ?

Perhaps that cheap dash plastic is giving them a weight advantage ?

RWD is no longer God's choice so apparently the second coming of Jesus Christ is on his way this week then.........

WWJD

WHAT WOULD JESUS DRIVE?

Edited February 13, 2006 by regfootball

[razoredge]

WJWDAB

but of course!

[Robert Hall]

WWJD

WHAT WOULD JESUS DRIVE?

A Prius? Or a bicycle?

[Snate]

Camry's L4 is FAR from anemic.....when have YOU driven one?

Duh...its the number one selling car in the country...who hasn't driven one would be more appropriate...and yes it is anemic....at best merely adequate.

[Sixty8panther]

A Prius?    Or a bicycle?

Neither. Jesus was, if you study his philosophy and teachings, more of a hippie than anything. He was all about peace, love and understanding.

Therefore I say Jesus would have definatelly driven a RWD car. Specifically one of the following three:

and yes, before you ask I'm being 100% serious. The guy studied in the far east, although the vatican has erased all of that out of the bible. WTF, one second we hear about Jesus at 8 years old next thing you know he's 32. What about all the stuff in between?

[Flybrian]

I think its been a little more than "seven or so times" for ol' Sixty8...

[Chicagoland]

when did a GTO ever have 425 hp ?

Widely-accepted actual output of the RA IV.

That is old Gross HP measurement, which is NOT camparable to Net HP, used for 33 years. Gross HP is taken with no accesories attached, Net is with and more realistic.

People have been forgetting this since 1972, when makers started doing this. When will this end?

[Sixty8panther]

I think its been a little more than "seven or so times" for ol' Sixty8...

I'm either too stupid to ppick up on this or there's an inside joke I dont know about... Which is it?

[Hudson]

"What would Jesus drive?"

Wasn't he a carpenter? Would he, most likely, drive an F150 or Silverado? Maybe a Ram Truck.

[RBB]

And I'd bet that Toyota owns part of Aisin. GM buys transmissions from Getrag, Honda, ZF, etc...wholly independent companies from GM.

You'd be correct:

Aisin (pronounced "eye-sheen") is an archetypal supplier in Toyota's group. Founded during World War II to make aircraft engines, it is based in Kariya, an industrial warren occupied by many other big Toyota suppliers. Toyota holds 23% of Aisin's stock. Aisin's president is Kanshiro Toyoda, scion of the Toyoda family that founded the auto maker.

GM also buys parts from Aisin:

Transmission: Aisin® 5-speed manual close-ratio

Aisin Seiki Co., Ltd. (President: Kanshiro Toyoda; Headquarters: Kariya-city, Aichi, Japan) received orders for the first time from General Motors (GM) for engine related parts, Variable Valve Timing (VVT) and Oil Control Valve (OCV), which hydraulically controls VVT, and began supplying these products at the end of March.

-RBB

[razoredge]

he was the lazy son of a carpenter, like 6t8 said he was a hippy, he rode a jackass

that means in recent times when there were no more micro buses left to wear out and he compromised his principles like all good hippies have done, he would have been the first to drive a toyota then a Hyundia then a Kia

however Im convinced if in todays world he was a good American boy he would drive a Buick.......if he did not, I would never believe a word he said..........

[evok]

LOL... Yep, because that's ALL they sell... And, after all Toyota doesn't sell ANY cars to fleets now do they?

I posted this earlier. Typical, duck and run.

Less than 15% for the Camry compared to over 50% for the Impala and GP.

I do not think it is a matter IF they sell to fleet but how much!

[regfootball]

Neither. Jesus was, if you study his philosophy and teachings, more of a hippie than anything. He was all about peace, love and understanding.

Therefore I say Jesus would have definatelly driven a RWD car. Specifically one of the following three:

and yes, before you ask I'm being 100% serious. The guy studied in the far east, although the vatican has erased all of that out of the bible. WTF, one second we hear about Jesus at 8 years old next thing you know he's 32. What about all the stuff in between? 

Maybe Jesus had a stint in band camp, or military school, or basketball camp.

[Satty]

Hmm.....now that I think about it, Jesus and Dubya do have something in common......wonder what happened during the times we dont have information about, or whose records have been largely blacked out.

[Sixty8panther]

Satty:

Let's not get political.... Jesus never re-wrote the Bible to suit his needs.

[ToniCipriani]

Toyota DOES sell it's share of fleet cars....but it's a FRACTION of what GM does.

Impala, LaCrosse, Grand Prix GXP?  OLD cars based upon the original W-body from 1988 with basically new skins inside and out.  BIG on the outside....cramped on the inside....4-speed automatic transmissions and pushrod V6s (except the LaCrosse 3.6L.)

G6?  After my rental experience with a GXP just this last week, it's an attractively styled car with one of GM's best interiors.....but with absolutely unforgiveable body rigidity and structure stiffness.  (My rental creaked, groaned, and rattled going over bumps.  You could hear the doors creaking in their housings when traversing ridges in the road.)  It had only 13K miles on it but was a complete mess.....ugh.  Plus, it had lots of body roll and didn't feel all that athletic (just like C&D felt in the recent comparo.)

Aura?  GM has a real chance there.....let's hope the execution is as good as the exterior and interior styling.

When did the G6 get a GXP version?

Dude, you don't even know what you're talking about! Just relentlessly bashing, that's what I see.

[turbo200]

G6?  After my rental experience with a GXP just this last week, it's an attractively styled car with one of GM's best interiors.....but with absolutely unforgiveable body rigidity and structure stiffness.  (My rental creaked, groaned, and rattled going over bumps.  You could hear the doors creaking in their housings when traversing ridges in the road.)  It had only 13K miles on it but was a complete mess.....ugh.  Plus, it had lots of body roll and didn't feel all that athletic (just like C&D felt in the recent comparo.)

Aura?  GM has a real chance there.....let's hope the execution is as good as the exterior and interior styling.

I assume you mean GTP. What is it with the Epsilon cars that they just don't seem as sporting as the class leaders? G6 can't seem to keep up with Altima, Accord, Mazda6, all major contenders, because it has an "unathletic feel"--translation: not nimble and rolls a lot, even though it may grip well and hold the road well. 9-3 also loses comparisons thanks to this and an underpowered engine for the class. Malibu gets away with it since its basic mission is not to be more on the sporting side. The issue is G6 has a sporty flair to it as part of its mission, raison d'etre, and it fails to succeed. Your opinion gives weight to my belief that more work needs to be done on the platform, especially if it is to underpin a Cadillac in Europe and future, hopefully better Saabs and Pontiacs and Chevys.

[enzl]

I assume you mean GTP. What is it with the Epsilon cars that they just don't seem as sporting as the class leaders? G6 can't seem to keep up with Altima, Accord, Mazda6, all major contenders, because it has an "unathletic feel"--translation: not nimble and rolls a lot, even though it may grip well and hold the road well. 9-3 also loses comparisons thanks to this and an underpowered engine for the class. Malibu gets away with it since its basic mission is not to be more on the sporting side. The issue is G6 has a sporty flair to it as part of its mission, raison d'etre, and it fails to succeed. Your opinion gives weight to my belief that more work needs to be done on the platform, especially if it is to underpin a Cadillac in Europe and future, hopefully better Saabs and Pontiacs and Chevys.

It gets back to the question of "Good Enough" not being good enough...although the competition is by no means perfect (in different respects each), they each bring something to the table: Toyota= flawless reliability, Mazda= sporty economy, etc...what does the Epsilon family bring to the table??? Remember, these are cars to 'change minds' about GM products...but are they converting customers back to GM? The answer, unfortunately, is no.

This doesn't make them bottom feeders or inadequate, it just goes to show how far the perception of GM products has fallen...you've got to turn heads and surprise and delight customers with Unique Selling Points. All of the Epsilons fail to do that in any meaningful way...

[turbo200]

It gets back to the question of "Good Enough" not being good enough...although the competition is by no means perfect (in different respects each), they each bring something to the table: Toyota= flawless reliability, Mazda= sporty economy, etc...what does the Epsilon family bring to the table??? Remember, these are cars to 'change minds' about GM products...but are they converting customers back to GM? The answer, unfortunately, is no. 

This doesn't make them bottom feeders or inadequate, it just goes to show how far the perception of GM products has fallen...you've got to turn heads and surprise and delight customers with Unique Selling Points. All of the Epsilons fail to do that in any meaningful way...

That's right, I've been saying this for some time. The only way GM is going to win back customers is through surprise and delighting the customer. Fleet sales are a big, meaningful percentage of GM sales these days, and this underscores the fact that less and less of the buying public are choosing GM. GM needs to try much harder than the current batch of Epsilon cars, 9-3 included, to win back market share.

EDIT: Aura, being late to the game, is not part of the current batch. Hopefully it will meet the bar and exceed it greatly enough to win over lots and lots of import shoppers. I'm hoping for over 200k sales, by the second year.

Edited February 14, 2006 by turbo200

[PontiacTechNJ]

You'd be correct: 

Aisin (pronounced "eye-sheen") is an archetypal supplier in Toyota's group. Founded during World War II to make aircraft engines, it is based in Kariya, an industrial warren occupied by many other big Toyota suppliers. Toyota holds 23% of Aisin's stock. Aisin's president is Kanshiro Toyoda, scion of the Toyoda family that founded the auto maker.

GM also buys parts from Aisin:

Transmission: Aisin® 5-speed manual close-ratio

Aisin Seiki Co., Ltd. (President: Kanshiro Toyoda; Headquarters: Kariya-city, Aichi, Japan) received orders for the first time from General Motors (GM) for engine related parts, Variable Valve Timing (VVT) and Oil Control Valve (OCV), which hydraulically controls VVT, and began supplying these products at the end of March.

-RBB

GM only invented the automatic trans

GM just started buying Aysin crap with the equinox and now the solstice , big deal , I am sure we will have big problems on the torrent like we did on the RAV 4 back in 2000 when I worked on Toyotas

GM s 6 speed is the most advanced auto overdrive in the world with some of the highest torque capacities anywhere

Benz and BMW buy lots of GM Hydramatic transmissions

Lots of Toyotas use GM Harrison Radiators ,and condensers , Delco radios Alternators , batteries

one of the reasons the General spun off Delphi was all of the outside car companies buying GM components

Does Toyota build or ever build a 505 hp , naturally aspirated engine ?

Does Toyota Build or ever built a 469 hp 4.4 litre engine ?

Does Toyota build or ever built a 400 hp engine ?

Does Toyota really think they can take over the full size truck market the way they may have sold some camries ?

How come every V6 pickup and 4 runner built between 90-99 needed their head gaskets replaced (toyota gleefully covered those under warranty - must have been fearful of a congressional investigation !!) 2 and 4 cam. Yet they went to the mat to avoid covering sludged up camry and solara and minivan and avalon V6s , causing much damage to their consumer friendley reputation

Edited February 14, 2006 by PontiacTechNJ

[enzl]

GM only invented the automatic trans

GM just started buying Aysin crap with the equinox and now the solstice , big deal , I am sure we will have big problems on the torrent like we did on the RAV 4 back in 2000 when I worked on Toyotas

GM s 6 speed is the most advanced auto overdrive in the world with some of the highest torque capacities anywhere

Benz and BMW buy lots of GM Hydramatic transmissions

Lots of Toyotas use GM Harrison Radiators ,and condensers , Delco radios Alternators , batteries

one of the reasons the General spun off Delphi was all of the outside car companies buying GM components 

Does Toyota build or ever build a 505 hp , naturally aspirated engine ?

Does Toyota Build or ever built a 469 hp 4.4 litre engine ?

Does Toyota build or ever built a 400 hp engine ?

Does Toyota really think they can take over the full size truck market the way they may have sold some camries ?

How come every V6 pickup and 4 runner built between 90-99 needed their head gaskets replaced (toyota gleefully covered those under warranty - must have been fearful of a congressional investigation !!) 2 and 4 cam. Yet they went to the mat to avoid covering sludged up camry and solara and minivan and avalon V6s , causing much damage to their consumer friendley reputation

Another apologist...just what this board needs!

There's no doubt that GM does alot of things well...unfortunately, a vehicle is made up of more than its transmission, A/C or engine....