Panther Blues

[Blake Noble]

KBB is only an estimate... real world numbers are totally different. I've never paid KBB.

Looking at ONLY '98 Camaros on my CL, there are 3 over your price... all are SS/Z28 or seriously modded. 3 are below your price... $3800 for a V6 5spd with half your mileage... $2100 V6 5 spd... and $1500 for a convertible V6 with a tap. Also a '99 V6 with 66K for $3900!

... I overpaid for that POS of mine. Great ...

Anyone sent bobo my memo?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in its current condition, its worth about $1400, because the money you dumped into it has little bearing on its current value if the engine needs major repair. Sure, you might unload it on a sucker for much more, but you have to find the sucker.

I'm not against unloading it on a lot, but I am against being the con-artist who sells junk to a private buyer.

ANY milkiness in the oil is a bad sign.

And yes, you do have a nightmare on your hands because the buyer can see the other car was totaled. For the current sale, you are aware of a problem and are hoping someone buys the car at nearly KBB. If the engine fails and they learn you knew this beforehand, its fraud.

... Bobo really needs that memo, guys.

A mechanic will give you $500 bucks for it, tops. They can get stuff like this all day. He'll spend a day fixing it with $50 in parts and will turn around and sell it for $3000. Not a bad days work.

Its the law of supply and demand. In this society were 99% of the people can't CHECK their oil, let alone change it, NOBODY wants a broken car.

... Bobo. Memo. Send it.

Well you could change the intake gasket, and then the oil. It may take time, but just ask on the Camaro forums for help. That,a long with the FSM is how I changed my valve springs...and that's a far scarier project.

I could attempt to, but I'm certain I would only do more harm than good. I popped the hood today, had the steps I linked to earlier printed out, and started walking through everything in my head ... whatever doubts I had before, well, they weren't put to rest. That's for sure.

Edited August 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

... There isn't much point in discussing it further is there? As much as I want to be right on how I'm trying to do this, I'm not. I can't sell the car for the minimum I need and I really can't pay to fix it. I guess I'm stuck driving it until it hits critical mass.

No... the solution is to fix the problem. Its not that hard. You had a year of Auto Tech? That more than I ever had. I have 20 years of having to fix it by the size of the road in the pouring rain... with only two tools... and no money. You ONLY build self confidence and learn how to fix cars be getting your hands dirty.

Driving it until it goes critical mass don't make sense. You're going to find another $4K for another car 3 months from now? So you'll be out a drivable car for either a couple days now... or a few months later. A stitch in time saves nine. But if you fix it now, its worth more if you come across a good trade or buyer.

DF and all are trying to help because we all have learned from our mistakes... and we feel you are making a mistake rejecting the best solution.

Oh yeah, I bought a 12 year-old Camaro ...

1000s of 12 year old Camaros will be sold this year to happy buyers. Mostly irrelevant.

who's previous owner was the youngest church lady out of the crowd ...

She drove stick... so she's already ahead of the bulk of the driving public. Irrelevant.

who didn't know how to properly maintenance it ...

Like everyone else. Irrelevant.

from a small used car lot ...

Could be relevant... used car lots are good at hiding mechanical issues. "Look! It has fresh oil!"

with over 100,000 miles ...

So it still have half its usable life. Mostly irrelevant.

because I don't like certain cars ...

Relevant... you like somewhat rare cars typically beat to death by their owners.

That's the price of uniqueness.

What if you only liked driving the Oscar Meyer Weinermobile... but it turns out all the Weinermobiles on the market have literally a million miles on them and are severely clapped out. Well, you better have lots of money or good mechanical skills to drive a Weinermobile.

[SAmadei]

Anyone sent bobo my memo?

Honestly, we're not trying to rub it in.

[Intrepidation]

I'm assuming it goes something like this:

• Remove the air intake
  
• Label and disconnect any sensors and vacuum lines connected to the upper intake
  
• Unbolt the upper intake and remove
  
• Relieve pressure from the fuel system
  
• Unplug the injector wires
  
• Unbolt the fuel rails
  
• Remove the fuel rails
  
• Drain the coolant via the radiator
  
• Unbolt the lower intake
  
• Clean off the gasket mating surfaces
  
• Position new gaskets and use a little rtv to hold them in place
  
• Bolt the lower intake back down, following the manufacturer;s tightening sequence and torque to spec
  
• Install the fuel rails and injectors, probably a good idea to get new o-rings for the injectors
  
• Reconnect injector wires
  
• Make sure mating surfaces for upper intake are clean, use new gasket (or if the gasket is reusable and in good shape, reuse it, I don't know if they are for 3.8s)
  
• Install upper intake, follow tightening sequence and torque to spec
  
• Reconnect sensors and vacuum lines
  
• Install intake
  
• Refill the cooling system and bleed according to manufacturer's instructions.
  
• Start the car and check for leaks.
  

That's basically the procedure to the 3.5. I have no idea how a 3.8 is set up but I can't image it being totally different.

Oh and change the oil.

Everything I know about cars I've learned via the FSM/Haynes manuals, friends, online, and giving it a shot. I never had any class time at all to teach me. Do you have any idea how nervous I was working on the inside of the engine, knowing that if a bolt or keeper or tool fell into the oil channels it would mean either removing the oil pan or the heads? I just took my time and was extra, extra careful. It took me 3 weeks and some frustration, but I persevered. Nothing feels better than firing up the engine for the first time and everything going right. I saved over $400, learned new things, got to see what the inside of my engine looked like, and had the satisfaction and pride in knowing I did this complex job myself, and did it right. So if I can do a valve spring job, you can do this if you put your mind to it and take your time. Don't be afraid to stop and ask questions along the way.

[Cory Wolfe]

I could attempt to, but I'm certain I would only do more harm than good. I popped the hood today, had the steps I linked to earlier printed out, and started walking through everything in my head ... whatever doubts I had before, well, they weren't put to rest. That's for sure.

It's work. You just have to try. Alot of the stuff I've had to do with my Golf, I put off, fretting about how I didn't think I'd be able to do it correctly. Then, I finally did it and it seemed like child's play after that. As long as you have the tools you need and a good tear-down sheet to go by, you shouldn't have any issues. The most important thing I've become aware of is to make sure every bolt is torqued correctly. Just be patient, make a day of it.... and perhaps turn your stereo on and be calm. Have a beer if you must.

Edited August 28, 2010 by blackviper8891

[Intrepidation]

I also recommend bagging and labeling various groups of bolts and parts. That was such a life saver when it came time to put the engine back together!

Also 131,00 miles isn't even broken in yet.

[Cory Wolfe]

Also 131,00 miles isn't even broken in yet.

For real. It won't be in its prime til 200k. Atleast.

[Blake Noble]

Honestly, we're not trying to rub it in.

I know you guys aren't. I was just taking a moment to kick my own ass.

[Blake Noble]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D1cap6yETA

Good news: V-6 5-speed Dakota, two-wheel drive, blue. Somewhere in the '97 - '00 model year range in great condition. No idea on price yet. It's on a car lot. We'll see what the week brings. If I get the truck, I'll blow most of my loan refunds on fender flares, a stereo, and a lowering kit.
Bad news: Oil pressure gauge likes to spasm a lot now (Camaro).
Good news: Found a '69 F-85 for $1,700 bucks with a four-speed.
Bad news: It's in worse shape than the '72 Cutlass when I first got it. It runs decent and I could actually drive it home, but it would need: floorpans, right rear quarter panel, paint, a new motor (a Chevy 350 in an Olds? I don't think so), and interior trim. I could blow my loan refunds on that but ... what would be the point? Edited August 30, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

Forgot to elaborate further on the Camaro: so far, things are looking terminal.

To recap:

-The oil is just beginning to mix, it takes a discerning eye to tell.

-The car will run as hot as 210 in stop-and-go traffic.

-Oil pressure wildly fluctuates. Sometimes as high as 80, sometimes as low as 35 - 40, sometimes stays at a healthy 60, and the gauge will sometimes spasm at random intervals.

-Car smells like burning oil at times after the car has been shut off.

-Check engine light illuminates at random intervals.

I don't see dumping my refund dough (thank god some temporary cash is coming in from somewhere) into a high-mileage 3800 V6 engine. At this point, the only way I could see myself keeping the car would be if I could find a low mileage LS1, complete with a six-speed transmission, PCM and other necessary wiring, and a new differential for a transplant. Near impossible for that sort of $$$.

I'm going to seek a third opinion before I drive the Dakota I found.

Edited August 30, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

Well, if you were curious, forget the blue Dakota. It had 197,000 miles on it. Looking at it and driving it, you couldn't tell it had so many miles on it, but that's way too many for me to want to bother with it.

I found another Dakota today, though. Another 3.9L, black. Only 115,000 this time (more than what I want to deal with, but it beats the hell out of 197,000). Truck books less than the Camaro. I'll drive it, see how that goes, see if it's clapped out or good to go, then see if they can give me the title and maybe one of those chintzy 3,000 mile warranties to boot. If not, whatever.

So far, the biggest thing I have to worry about with the 3.9 is running into one that pings. Come to think of it, dad's old '98 used to do that, but it would only do it when you ran the truck on 87 octane gas. If you used 89 octane, it would stop. More than likely the choice of spark plugs Chrysler put in the 3.9s stock.

Apparently, spark plugs, wires, even the cap and rotor only cost $60 bucks to buy should I need to eventually replace all of that and the 3.9 doesn't look like a complete bitch to work on. Actually, I really like the way the LA Magnum engines were set up. It really reminds me of an older V6 or V8 engine: intake manifold sets on top of the block and the injectors screw into the sides of it and the throttle body sets on top of it like a carb. Nice. And inexpensive bolt-on mods (cold air intake, computer flash, exhaust, '92 exhaust manifolds) can bump power up to around the 200 horsepower mark without much hassle and give the 3.9 a bump in torque too (it has 225 to start with, which is what the Camaro has, so this will be a torquey motor). Very nice. I could live with this for the next two years and keep it around after I'm able to buy something newer/low mileage.

[Blake Noble]

Breaking news: I have a complete 2001 Z/28 on the line for $1,900 bucks. The car was rear-ended. Everything is there for me to swap the engine, transmission (it's an automatic), ECM, and rear-end over. The engine has 105,000 miles on it. The car also has the Z/28/SS hood (will need to be painted) that I did plan on putting on my car as well as a full leather interior (goodbye cloth).

I can dump the old 3.8/5-speed into the Z's body and scrap that for a few hundred bucks and use that money to rid myself of the glitchy old Theftlock/Monsoon stereo.

My loan refunds are about here. Maybe if I can get to the Z/28 soon, I'll keep my car. If not, then that's it.

Edited September 2, 2010 by whiteknight

[FAPTurbo]

I better slam Mr. Orville Redenbacher into the microwave.

[Blake Noble]

It's been a hell of a show. But wait until you see the ending.

[spoiler!](!hoped you liked inception!)[/spoiler!]

Anyway, I've been reading this thread: http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums/showthread.php?56976-99-L36-V6-to-01-LS1-V8-swap-%28w-PICS!%29

No cake walk by any means whatsoever, but then again, not a total nightmare. The donor car's K-member basically just unbolts, rolls over to the car undergoing surgery, and gets bolted back in.

It'll be an ass changing all of the linkage over, though, and I don't know what to do about the damn hole in the floor (lol duct tape?).

So, assessing the overall situation here, it's really a lot of time and work if you can get the extra help. There were three guys working over the course of three days putting in about 10 hours each day for the swap I linked to. I can get the help, but this is going to require me hauling not only my Camaro out of town but arranging to get the donor car there as well (I no longer have any local contacts that could help me with this).

Basically, do I want to spend $1,900 bucks converting a clapped out Camaro into a Z/28 with a patched up hole in the trans tunnel? Or do I want to take that same amount of cash and use it as boot to trade my clapped out Camaro off to something else?

Decisions, decisions ...

Did you get extra butter on that popcorn, CaptainFAP?

Edited September 2, 2010 by whiteknight

[FAPTurbo]

No, because I near choked to death after seeing the engine swap process. You're actually serious? Dude, you didn't want to repair your V6's problems, and you want to attempt this?! It'd be a complete circus.

Repair your Camaro, sell it, and buy the proverbial white Accord.

[Blake Noble]

No, because I near choked to death after seeing the engine swap process. You're actually serious? Dude, you didn't want to repair your V6's problems, and you want to attempt this?! It'd be a complete circus.

I really did stumble across the actual donor car I mentioned earlier this evening, but it's too much time and money. I wasn't being serious about it from the start. I'm too worried about spending $880 bucks to replace an intake gasket to spend $1,900 on a project like that. I have the Cutlass if I need something to tinker with.

You don't need the popcorn, btw.

Edited September 2, 2010 by whiteknight

[ocnblu]

Jacket, fix your Camaro before you blow up the engine. Then keep it for a while.

[A Horse With No Name]

• News flash for ya...

Save your money, drive the Camaro into the ground, and buy an LS1 powered Z28 in really good shape....in the future....you will be a happy boy...

[Blake Noble]

You guys may want to have your white Honda Accords on stand by.

I've found the exact truck I want.

Also, could anyone give me some quick pros and cons of the 4.7L PowerTech V8? To know what I'm dealing with, anyway?

[z28luvr01]

Well, I know it was (and still is) used in the Dakota, Ram, and Grand Cherokee from the turn of the decade until now. I can't find much in the way off issues/complaints with it.

[Blake Noble]

Sounds good then, Z.

I'll drive it next, check it out top to bottom. I also have some relatives in the area where I found the truck, so I'll also see what I might could do about a "discounted inspection".

My car is worth more than the truck is, even if the truck has less mileage than my car.