Panther Blues

[ocnblu]

Just a guess based on experience, but if the driver's door is the only panel that has peeling clearcoat, I'd guess it was at some point at least repainted, if not replaced.

[Blake Noble]

Well, the salesman (men?) pretty much lied to me. When it came time to talk out a trade, he handed me off to some other guy (not the sales manager) who insisted that they give me only $2,500 for my car and me pay a $5,000 difference. I showed them there wasn't much of a difference in value whatsoever between the two vehicles (gotta love having an iPhone). It just dumbfounded the salesman who continued to think of other ways to make his case hold water. I told them if they ever wanted to move the truck off of the lot, my even-trade offer would still stand if I still had the car, to give me a call, and walked away.

I'm disappointed but a small part of me expected that to happen.

Just a guess based on experience, but if the driver's door is the only panel that has peeling clearcoat, I'd guess it was at some point at least repainted, if not replaced.

It's more so the clear coat whitewashing/eroding from sitting in the sun and the elements. Typical for most DamilerChryCo cars and trucks but really premature for a vehicle with low mileage like that.

EDIT: Like this ...

Edited August 20, 2010 by whiteknight

[z28luvr01]

Ah, used car salesman. Gotta love 'em. Just make it known to them that they need you more than you need them, and they'll either buckle, or you'll find something else somewhere.

In the case of the paint, mileage doesn't matter. It's still an eleven year old paint job. ocn does bring up a good point. It's odd that the door is the only place where the clear is breaking down. This typically occurs on the surface(s) where the sun beats on most of the time. I'd half expect it to also be on the front fender and bed as well, if this truck is still sporting the original paint. You might want to search for evidence of accident damage, either via carfax or by searching for things like mismatched paint, misaligned body panels, bodywork reflecting in the paint surface, etc. Not that it really matters as long as the truck is structurally and mechanically OK, but it could give you ammo to get them to drop the price.

[ocnblu]

Yes, z understands what I'm referring to.

[Blake Noble]

Huh. My dad's last Dakota did the same thing and the current one is beginning to. I just attributed it to being cheap clear coat.

[Blake Noble]

Well, I guess I'll give it one last shot: http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/1913068561.html

[Satty]

http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/1915301881.html

Its a sign

[z28luvr01]

In all seriousness, how about something like this: http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/1909027233.html

Not necessarily this example, but for what you're looking to spend on a Dakota, you can get a GMT400 or even GMT800 with similar mileage with little to no reliability questions. Also try the Ram and the F-150.

[Blake Noble]

I guess the guy with the R/T wasn't interested in the Camaro. Oh well then.

http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/1915301881.html

Its a sign

Ahye dunt geddit. Speak sum Anglish.

In all seriousness, how about something like this: http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/1909027233.html

Not necessarily this example, but for what you're looking to spend on a Dakota, you can get a GMT400 or even GMT800 with similar mileage with little to no reliability questions. Also try the Ram and the F-150.

I hit a snag when I started looking at full-sized trucks: the mileage and the condition of the truck. Everything under $4500 has a lot of mileage, is in relatively poor condition, or both.

Three-grand for this? Uh, I don't think so. http://louisville.craigslist.org/ctd/1914462993.html

This really ties in with the other thread on used car prices. This is absolute insanity.

The Silverado you found actually seems quite nice, though. It would be even nicer if it had low mileage (120K and under). It may be worth looking into, but I would rather buy it with cash and not try to work out a trade on it.

On that note, I really do want to sell it but that presents some issues. How do I sell the car at a fair price where I won't completely loose my money and still let the buyer know what issues it does have? Is $4,000 too much? I know I won't see most of the $1,200 that I've dumped in it, but if I could make the purchase price back, I'd be more than happy to see it go.

Edited August 24, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

$4,000 is too much for a car that can't be driven. If you get the clutch and whatever major issues it has sorted, then yes. Otherwise a car that can't be driven is worth $1,000 or less in my book.

Friend of mine just bought a late model Eldorado for $1,000. It runs excellent, shifts nice, and is in really good shape inside and out. All it needs is a corner lens. There are deals to be had. That Chevy truck is worth maybe half that, assuming it can be driven on the road legally. If not it's worth about $500 or less.

[Blake Noble]

$4,000 is too much for a car that can't be driven. If you get the clutch and whatever major issues it has sorted, then yes. Otherwise a car that can't be driven is worth $1,000 or less in my book.

The car can be driven, DF. The clutch is no longer an issue. I actually drove it yesterday from to London and back and then to Richmond and I'm going out of town with it this weekend, maybe have a family friend and mechanic give me a second opinion while I'm there.

The Camaro now has one small issue I see turning into a big problem eventually: the intake gasket. I think it's just started to go bad. I haven't noticed coolant mixing in with other fluids yet (this weekend's trip will also serve as a test). And it's not that the parts to fix it are expensive, it's the labor that will rape you. From what I've gathered, this is about a 2 to 5 day job; 2 days for a pro, 5 for a shade-tree mechanic.

As I've said, I don't completely trust myself enough to do the job and from what I've been reading up on, I don't even have the proper place to do it. People have said, in order to make this job less of a bitch to do, it's better if you can get the car up on a lift to remove the spark plugs and exhaust manifolds. And still, it's a pissy job because there is very little room around the back of the engine to work.

I only see one way I would be keeping this car: if I could transplant a low-mileage LS1 and a six-speed in it. I would personally rather find a way to hold out until I get out of college and buy something that will treat me right. That means I have to find something that will last me two years that I'll enjoy owning.

Friend of mine just bought a late model Eldorado for $1,000. It runs excellent, shifts nice, and is in really good shape inside and out. All it needs is a corner lens. There are deals to be had.

Not down here.

That Chevy truck is worth maybe half that, assuming it can be driven on the road legally. If not it's worth about $500 or less.

Agreed.

Edited August 24, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

The Camaro now has one small issue I see turning into a big problem eventually: the intake gasket. I think it's just started to go bad. I haven't noticed coolant mixing in with other fluids yet (this weekend's trip will also serve as a test). And it's not that the parts to fix it are expensive, it's the labor that will rape you. From what I've gathered, this is about a 2 to 5 day job; 2 days for a pro, 5 for a shade-tree mechanic.

Five days for an intake gasket on a 3.8? Thats crazy... unless your turning the bolts with your bare hands.

If a shade-tree puts his mind to it, its a 1 day job at the worse 1.5 if you need to parts chase. I realize the F-body 3.8 is slightly different to cope with than a FWD application, being tucked up underneath of the windshield... but thats a wash concerning the issues of having the coolant elbows jammed between the belts and too close to the wheelwell.

Drain the coolant. Unpressurize the fuel system. Unplug and label your electrical/vacuum. Pull the TB off... Pull the fuel rail. Pull the upper intake. Pull the lower intake. Clean up surfaces and reverse to put it back together.

Now some mods may slow you down... While your at it you should block the coolant to the TB. Eliminates heating the TB too much and some leak possibilities. Also get the good aluminum gaskets. Finally, the EGR cooks the plastic intake gasket... The F-body set up might be different, bu tin any case, there are repairs you can do to fix that problem, by using a newer replacement intake or by getting a different EGR stovepipe.

My top half repairs took about 10 days to do... but I was replacing a lot more... water pump, wires, spark plugs, oil, tranny fluid and filter, etc. I started one day... got 7 days of rain before I finished, so I consider that a 2.5 day job overall of actual work.

[Intrepidation]

That long for an intake gasket? I can see it taking me a day to do a 3.5 at most, and I've never done the lower.

[Blake Noble]

I'm going by what I've read and I can see why it would take so long and why labor is so expensive.

Some threads I've read:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/general-maintenance-repairs/368558-intake-gasket-replacement.html

http://camaroforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49527

http://www.fbodyonline.com/forum/f15/intake-gasket-20414/

EDIT: Found out the reason why the 3.8 is prone to leaking intake gaskets; upper: EGR placement, lower: residual Dex-Cool turning into acidic sludge.

Wow. Thanks, Dex-Cool.

I've also been reading that, when one gasket starts to go, its best to just replace them all.

I would really hate to kill a car, but I'm so tempted to drive the Camaro until the gasket breaks down to the point where it would leak so much it would hydrolock the damn engine.

If I ever own another F-Body car, and knowing me I will, I'll make damn sure it has an LS1 and under 35,000 miles. No more 3.8L 100k+ bullshit.

Like this T/A: http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/1909106451.html

If a car like that is out there in two-years time, I'll gladly buy it as gift to myself.

Edited August 24, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

I'm going by what I've read and I can see why it would take so long and why labor is so expensive.

Some threads I've read:

http://www.ls1tech.c...eplacement.html

http://camaroforums....ead.php?t=49527

http://www.fbodyonli...e-gasket-20414/

Well, again, I acknowledge there are differences between the RWD and FWD 3800s... but its mostly about how the accessories are put and the RWD intake puts the TB at the front of the engine where it belongs... and that the rear of the engine is hard to work on... but there is nothing in those links that radically different then when I did the job.

I still maintain that it can be done by a shade tree mechanic in a day to a day and a half.

EDIT: Found out the reason why the 3.8 is prone to leaking intake gaskets; upper: EGR placement, lower: residual Dex-Cool turning into acidic sludge.

Wow. Thanks, Dex-Cool.

Yeah, and that's why Dex-Cool gets removed and the Prestone any-color gets put in to my cars.

I thought you knew about the coolant leakage issues.

Again, I recommend blocking the coolant to the upper intake and TB... it helps warmup emissions a tiny bit... but screws performance. Plus blocking the coolant at the lower intake eliminates the coolant problems at the EGR stovepipe.

I've also been reading that, when one gasket starts to go, its best to just replace them all.

The intake gasket is one big gasket that spreads across to both heads. There really is no 'all' to worry about.

Also, you WILL break the coolant elbows, so buy two new ones.

I would really hate to kill a car, but I'm so tempted to drive the Camaro until the gasket breaks down to the point where it would leak so much it would hydrolock the damn engine.

Its fairly unlikely to hydrolock the engine. In general, the coolant leaks into the oil and destroys the bearings.

Then you would be on the hook for a LS1 engine swap... $$$

If I ever own another F-Body car, and knowing me I will, I'll make damn sure it has an LS1 and under 35,000 miles. No more 3.8L 100k+ bull$h!.

So you're not buying any more F-bodies. Cue Honda Accord photo.

Seriously, the 3.8 is _VERY_ reliable. If it wasn't seeping, I'd say change out the Dex-Cool and forget it.

On my 3800, I found a small amount of coolant in the intake at 130K... at 196K I decided to fix it... turns out my intake gaskets were not bad... and the EGR stovepipe area was weak, but holding. The slight leak turned out to be the gasket between the TB and upper. I still had to do all the work, as the intake and TB was caked in oil from the PVC valve. 229K and counting now.

[Blake Noble]

Well, again, I acknowledge there are differences between the RWD and FWD 3800s... but its mostly about how the accessories are put and the RWD intake puts the TB at the front of the engine where it belongs... and that the rear of the engine is hard to work on... but there is nothing in those links that radically different then when I did the job.

I still maintain that it can be done by a shade tree mechanic in a day to a day and a half.

Perhaps, but I know I couldn't do it that quick.

Yeah, and that's why Dex-Cool gets removed and the Prestone any-color gets put in to my cars.

That's the thing, the car has had a flush-and-fill at some point during its life, how well that job was performed, I don't know. It currently does have Prestone in it. But, I can see some places were some of the old Dex-Cool has hung around; on the radiator cap, some crud in the overfill bottle, small places like that.

I thought you knew about the coolant leakage issues.

I've actually been ignorant to them this entire time. I'm very frustrated with myself over that. I'm also annoyed that GM just had to find a way to destroy a perfectly good V6 engine by using cheap frigging gaskets. I can see why it used to be hip to hate GM, they really made some dumb ass decisions.

Its fairly unlikely to hydrolock the engine. In general, the coolant leaks into the oil and destroys the bearings.

Then you would be on the hook for a LS1 engine swap... $$$

The cheapest I can find a low-mileage LS1, with the transmission intact, to swap into the Camaro looks to run about $3,000. That idea is out.

So you're not buying any more F-bodies. Cue Honda Accord photo.

Well, I'm not going to buy another 3.8L (or 3.4L) F-Body car. When I graduate from college, I'll seek out a nice 2002 Trans Am with under 35,000 miles. If I can't secure a loan for that, then I'll move on to something else, like a used Challenger or F5 Camaro and just wash my hands of this preference of mine for good.

3.8L F-Bodies typically aren't treated very well. I can see that now. And finding a decent one is a.) difficult and b.) too damn expensive for what you're getting.

Also, I'll never own another "lady-driven" car. My Camaro was driven by the wife of a local preacher. While she may not have ragged the car out cosmetically, I now know for sure she beat the hell out of it mechanically, probably by declining to maintain the car when it really needed it or failing to understand how to keep the car on a tight maintenance schedule. That might sound chauvinistic, but screw it: it's true that a lot of women do not understand how to maintain a damn car.

I haven't checked the progress of the fluids today ... I think I'll go do that, just to see how far along this has gotten. The car is now starting to run at 210 degrees, and that's pretty hot for a 3.8. Before the intake gasket started to go, the needle wouldn't go above 160.

Edited August 24, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

Well if nothing else it's a learning experience to check the little things for signs of larger problems on your next purchase.

[Blake Noble]

The oil is beginning to lighten in color. It's just about due for a oil change, and it isn't the typical dark brown/black color. It's about the color of coffee with a bit of milk or cream added to it. It looks nothing like clean oil, either.

Edited August 25, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

Well, I'm not going to buy another 3.8L (or 3.4L) F-Body car. When I graduate from college, I'll seek out a nice 2002 Trans Am with under 35,000 miles. If I can't secure a loan for that, then I'll move on to something else, like a used Challenger or F5 Camaro and just wash my hands of this preference of mine for good.

I'm sure that market is drying up REAL quick. They only made 30K a year of those, and that included all the 3.8 ones. The few with low mileage like that are going to demand good money. Better start looking at the F5 Camaro.

3.8L F-Bodies typically aren't treated very well. I can see that now. And finding a decent one is a.) difficult and b.) too damn expensive for what you're getting.

Also, I'll never own another "lady-driven" car. My Camaro was driven by the wife of a local preacher. While she may not have ragged the car out cosmetically, I now know for sure she beat the hell out of it mechanically, probably by declining to maintain the car when it really needed it or failing to understand how to keep the car on a tight maintenance schedule. That might sound chauvinistic, but screw it: it's true that a lot of women do not understand how to maintain a damn car.

People talk a good game about maintenance, but I don't know hardly anyone nowadays that follows it that closely. Many people who regularly buy new don't give a crap... they know its the next person's problem. And replacing the DexCool with more DexCool doesn't really fix this problem, anyway. Changing you oil regularly doesn't solve the intake problem. Personally, I feel some of the maintenance items are put in the book to help the OEM fight warranty issues. Changing your oil every 3000 miles only helps the oil companies make more money.

The problems you've mentioned are typical problems... for a 3.8 Camaro or a 3.8 Monte Carlo. I've heard 10x the number of stories from the 3.4, where the intake gaskets fail disastrously, at low mileage... 35K and lower.

You've already made your decision on this car. Turn the page and get something else so we can 'told ya so' and post Honda Accord pictures on that thread. ;-)

I haven't checked the progress of the fluids today ... I think I'll go do that, just to see how far along this has gotten. The car is now starting to run at 210 degrees, and that's pretty hot for a 3.8. Before the intake gasket started to go, the needle wouldn't go above 160.

Not in my experience. Sounds like your coolant might be a bit low. It should have stayed around 180... 160 sounds like it has a colder thermostat.

The oil is beginning to lighten in color. It's just about due for a oil change, and it isn't the typical dark brown/black color. It's about the color of coffee with a bit of milk or cream added to it. It looks nothing like clean oil, either.

Thats not a good sign. Especially coupled with coolant loss.

The clock is ticking on this, even if the car is not driven. You either fix the intake gaskets immediately and flush the oil or the engine will be a write off in short order. Its rare for a 3.8 to have head gaskets issues, but you might want to get the head gaskets checked for leakage, as well. It would doubly suck to change the intake gaskets to find the head gaskets were the problem.

Pulling an engine out of a Camaro will make changing the intake gaskets look like changing a light bulb.

[Blake Noble]

I'm sure that market is drying up REAL quick. They only made 30K a year of those, and that included all the 3.8 ones. The few with low mileage like that are going to demand good money. Better start looking at the F5 Camaro.

Oh, it is. Finding a low mileage F4 Firebird/Camaro is quite uncommon. It's not rare to find a Trans Am like I mentioned earlier (there's two cars that fit the guidelines on Craigslist right now) but it isn't easy. I don't see that changing in two years, either.

There will be decent newer model vehicles I can buy used with decent mileage in two years. Chargers, 300s, Challengers, Camaros, Mustangs, and a handful of trucks mostly. I can find something I can live with, so either way, I'm not worried about it. What I am worried about is what I'm going to do in the short-term here. I need to find something that will make it the next two years without nickeling and diming me to hell and back, that I like, and that can still give me some service after I replace it. I think a truck really is the way to go here.

I also have an ATV that isn't getting any use. I'd like to have something to haul that around in that won't absolutely kill me getting it to where I want to take it (another reason why the two S-Series trucks I had were useless, a payload like that would bog the truck down in traffic and it was beyond grueling).

People talk a good game about maintenance, but I don't know hardly anyone nowadays that follows it that closely. Many people who regularly buy new don't give a crap... they know its the next person's problem.

You're exactly right.

And that brings me into one of my big pet-peeves with American society: the disposable, apathetic attitude we have toward major purchases, like cars. (That's a different topic, though.)

I know I may be guilty of that to some degree, but I try my damn hardest to keep my stuff in top shape. I want to keep whatever car I have running good. It's just that, out of the six cars I've owned (Cutlass doesn't count; that was a project, also one I recently started sharing with my dad, and I don't drive it daily and probably never will), financial sense kicked in and sort of shown me the bigger picture.

However, I like spending money on cosmetic mods and audio upgrades. They're projects. I can do them myself. Of course, I don't mind spending money on maintenance ... if it doesn't hit me all at one time. If I have to replace a serpentine belt on my next oil change, fine. That's okay. I can deal with that. I don't like it when, just 10 or 20 miles later after I replaced that belt something else starts to fail and that pattern keeps repeating until I've essentially repaired most of the damn car. That's when a car becomes a money pit and there's only so much of that I can spend on and tolerate.

And replacing the DexCool with more DexCool doesn't really fix this problem, anyway. Changing you oil regularly doesn't solve the intake problem. Personally, I feel some of the maintenance items are put in the book to help the OEM fight warranty issues. Changing your oil every 3000 miles only helps the oil companies make more money.

Again, no argument here.

I guess the dudes who own Pennzoil must really love me then. I run nothing but synthetic oil through everything that I get behind the wheel of.

The problems you've mentioned are typical problems... for a 3.8 Camaro or a 3.8 Monte Carlo. I've heard 10x the number of stories from the 3.4, where the intake gaskets fail disastrously, at low mileage... 35K and lower.

Now, I was aware of the 3.4L cars doing that. One reason why I haven't owned or bought one.

You've already made your decision on this car. Turn the page and get something else so we can 'told ya so' and post Honda Accord pictures on that thread. ;-)

I hate that picture, so that means I gotta do this right this one last time, 100 percent, no stone left unturned, etc., etc.

Not in my experience. Sounds like your coolant might be a bit low. It should have stayed around 180... 160 sounds like it has a colder thermostat.

Hmmm ... strange.

Thats not a good sign. Especially coupled with coolant loss.

The clock is ticking on this, even if the car is not driven. You either fix the intake gaskets immediately and flush the oil or the engine will be a write off in short order. Its rare for a 3.8 to have head gaskets issues, but you might want to get the head gaskets checked for leakage, as well. It would doubly suck to change the intake gaskets to find the head gaskets were the problem.

Sort of what I'm thinking. I know the writing is on the wall for the car, and I see the engine failing in a matter of a few short months. I honestly don't have the cash to pay someone to do this job as soon as it should be done.

I have an $800 dollar credit card bill to pay for Adobe CS5 and my textbooks. College has to come first for the next two years. That's another reason why keeping a money pit for a daily driver just doesn't make sense for me.

Like I said, I'll be heading out of town on a short trip this weekend, and I plan on continuously monitoring the degradation of the engine oil, seeing if it gets milkier.

Ultimately, I know I have to find a way to unload this car, I just don't know how to go about doing that. A dealer won't be reasonable and trade even for what I would like to have, and I don't want to pawn it off on some unsuspecting buyer, that completely runs against my sense of right and wrong.

Pulling an engine out of a Camaro will make changing the intake gaskets look like changing a light bulb.

[insert how many does it take joke here]

Edited August 25, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

You definitely have coolant mixing with the oil. Afraid to tell you but unless that's fixed , it's not worth $4,000.

[Blake Noble]

You definitely have coolant mixing with the oil. Afraid to tell you but unless that's fixed , it's not worth $4,000.

I know that, DF.

I'm going to have to find a dealer to unload this car on.

[z28luvr01]

Just as a point of reference, my dealer quoted someone $5xx to replace an oil pan gasket on a 2008 Malibu (she hit something). No way an intake gasket (parts+labor) would cost that much at an independent repair shop. Have you gotten quotes? You might be better off just fixing the gasket and flipping the car. You'll definitely get more for it.

[Blake Noble]

Just as a point of reference, my dealer quoted someone $5xx to replace an oil pan gasket on a 2008 Malibu (she hit something). No way an intake gasket (parts+labor) would cost that much at an independent repair shop. Have you gotten quotes? You might be better off just fixing the gasket and flipping the car. You'll definitely get more for it.

I've gotten a few quotes. I don't have them handy, but I think one placed quoted me something like $650.

There are, of course, two shops that I refuse to take anything to. One is known for poor service, the other has actually ripped me off in the past, replacing and charging me for parts that I didn't need.

[z28luvr01]

So, look at it this way: $650 plus being able to sell the car for $4000 free and clear, or selling it as is for whatever they feel like giving you, and potentially having a small claims court case on your hands.

[Cory Wolfe]

This is perfect for you: Clicky.

[Blake Noble]

This is perfect for you: Clicky.

Oooh. I approve.

A useful convertible truck. You think GM would have tried to match that with the SSR, but nope.

Sad, though, because when I was on You Tube recently checking out Dakota vids, a perfect example of one of those trucks (with the 5.2L V8 no less) had been handed over to Cash for Clunkers. Someone seemed to think the truck had been rescued, but no one could confirm it.

[z28luvr01]

This is what you need

RWD

Low mileage

unmolested

Indestructible

affordable

[Intrepidation]

What you need is a Panther car. They can do everything.

[SAmadei]

Its time for someone to buy the infamous white Honda Accord and start trolling WK's Craigslist ads. Then when he shows up for that mint $1000 Monte Carlo with 33K miles, do a bait and switch.

Bring us the video... let him keep the car.

[Camino LS6]

This is what you need

RWD

Low mileage

unmolested

Indestructible

affordable

This.

[Blake Noble]

Its time for someone to buy the infamous white Honda Accord and start trolling WK's Craigslist ads. Then when he shows up for that mint $1000 Monte Carlo with 33K miles, do a bait and switch.

Bring us the video... let him keep the car.

Which car do I get to keep? The Monte? I'll take the Accord only if I get the Monte too.

[Robert Hall]

Which car do I get to keep? The Monte? I'll take the Accord only if I get the Monte too.

I'd keep whatever is running and reliable and get rid of the broken stuff.

[Blake Noble]

This is what you need

RWD

Low mileage

unmolested

Indestructible

affordable

Like I said in the other thread, I definitely approve.

I've been seeing what's out there locally. Sadly, this is all I could find: http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/1913870158.html

On the truck hunt, I found this: http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/1909044977.html

Low mileage, affordable, five-speed, maybe not a V8 but I think most SXTs had at least a V6 but ... drum roll, please ... it has a rebuilt title.

[SAmadei]

Which car do I get to keep? The Monte? I'll take the Accord only if I get the Monte too.

Bait.... and Switch... there is no Monte.

[Blake Noble]

Bait.... and Switch... there is no Monte.

Awww ... :/

[Blake Noble]

Well, I put the Camaro up for sale as-is. Someone wants to trade a 5.2L Dakota Sport to it.

[Blake Noble]

I'm going to pussy out of the offer. I mean, the guy knows, but still.

[Cory Wolfe]

Clicky. This one's got a little surprise.

[Blake Noble]

Clicky. This one's got a little surprise.

Holy shit. That would make a nice toy.

[Blake Noble]

http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/1922787764.html

If you wish to criticize, do it now.

[FAPTurbo]

Your luck with sub-5000 dollar cars is pretty much 0-9001.

[Intrepidation]

Good luck selling it. Undercutting excellent condition by a mere $370 when it's got chocolate milk in the engine probably won't land you the price you're looking for, and the longer it gets used unfixed, the more damage it will do to the engine internals.

You should make it clear in your ad that oil and coolant are mixing.

I want to be honest with anyone who's interested. I don't like surprises and I know you don't either.

[FAPTurbo]

Oh wait it's yours? My bad, you've had so many I kinda got lost for a moment.

And you didn't specify the coolant/oil mixture problem? Yeah, if the buyer finds out about it, it won't just be Adobe Photoshop bills you'll be worrying about.

[Blake Noble]

Your luck with sub-5000 dollar cars is pretty much 0-9001.

I see what you did there.

Good luck selling it. Undercutting excellent condition by a mere $370 when it's got chocolate milk in the engine probably won't land you the price you're looking for, and the longer it gets used unfixed, the more damage it will do to the engine internals.

Well, I'm going by KBB values here. Click the link in the ad, note each price, and read each description on the various conditions.

It's hard to say if the main issue the car has would be classified as a major mechanical problem. It does run and drive ok at the moment, but for how long I don't know. It's hard to make a judgment on that. It's almost like giving someone with cancer so many months to live; that can sometimes be wrong.

Worse case scenario, the car is still worth $3,100. At this point, to get this out of my hair for good, I would more than happy to accept that price, what money I've thrown away fixing it be damned.

You should make it clear in your ad that oil and coolant are mixing.

At this moment, the degree as to how pertinent that information could be is debatable as what I'm thinking might be going on is little more than reasonable suspicion and there is no guarantee that's correct.

A year of Auto-Tech classes doesn't necessarily make me a mechanic and it's obvious my mechanical skills are somewhat limited at best. I could very well be wrong about that. Although my suspicions are quite strong, I haven't had them confirmed 100 percent. When a mechanic confirms what I think, then I'll put it up in the ad and work with a buyer accordingly.

I am currently seeking a second opinion to mine on weather or not the oil is definitely mixing and how fast it's degrading to the point where it becomes whole milk, so don't assume I'm trying to scam someone. As I've said before, my sense of right and wrong is stronger than that.

I'm doing this as I go because I don't have the slightest idea in hell how to handle this. I've sold a totaled vehicle, but not one with a problem like this. This is honestly a nightmare.

I've disclosed the major issue in the ad. If whoever wants to buy it wants a mechanic to tell them to what degree this has progressed, then I'll gladly drive the car to a shop.

Like I said in the ad, I'm trying to be as honest as I can. I'd like for a mechanic to buy it, actually. He'd know what the hell to do and would know what to expect. I know it won't turn out that way, though.

Edited August 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

Again, if there's anything in that post you can criticize, let me hear it. If there is a flaw anywhere in my logic on this, point it out. I may be making this more complicated than what it is.

[Intrepidation]

I see what you did there.

Well, I'm going by KBB values here. Click the link in the ad, note each price, and read each description on the various conditions.

It's hard to say if the main issue the car has would be classified as a major mechanical problem. It does run and drive ok at the moment, but for how long I don't know. It's hard to make a judgment on that. It's almost like giving someone with cancer so many months to live; that can sometimes be wrong.

Worse case scenario, the car is still worth $3,100. At this point, to get this out of my hair for good, I would more than happy to accept that price, what money I've thrown away fixing it be damned.

At this moment, the degree as to how pertinent that information could be is debatable as what I'm thinking might be going on is little more than reasonable suspicion and there is no guarantee that's correct.

A year of Auto-Tech classes doesn't necessarily make me a mechanic and it's obvious my mechanical skills are somewhat limited at best. I could very well be wrong about that. Although my suspicions are quite strong, I haven't had them confirmed 100 percent. When a mechanic confirms what I think, then I'll put it up in the ad and work with a buyer accordingly.

I am currently seeking a second opinion to mine on weather or not the oil is definitely mixing and how fast it's degrading to the point where it becomes whole milk, so don't assume I'm trying to scam someone. As I've said before, my sense of right and wrong is stronger than that.

The oil is beginning to lighten in color. It's just about due for a oil change, and it isn't the typical dark brown/black color. It's about the color of coffee with a bit of milk or cream added to it. It looks nothing like clean oil, either.

That is a classic sign that there is without a doubt coolant mixing with your oil. You should most definitely mention this, even if you just say "the oil is milky".

When antifreeze mixes with oil it begins to break the oil down, and the stuff will sludge over time. The longer it goes unfixed, the worse it gets until the engine internals fail to get proper lubrication, and then you have a real nightmare on your hands.

That the car is running hot is also a sign the cooling system is not working properly.

Odds are good your lower intake gaskets are causing this, since you know it needs to be replaced. However there's also the chance, especially if it continues to be driven (while getting hot) that the head gaskets could go or have gone. A compression test would confirm their condition.

You might have better luck getting what you want for the car if you have the lower intake gasket replaced, do a compression test, and change the oil.

If you don't feel like doing that, be aware that the issues mentioned don't qualify the car as a Clean valued vehicle. So don't be surprised to get lower offers. Just giving you a heads up.

If nothing else you should mention that the oil looks milky.

[Blake Noble]

That is a classic sign that there is without a doubt coolant mixing with your oil. You should most definitely mention this, even if you just say "the oil is milky".

When antifreeze mixes with oil it begins to break the oil down, and the stuff will sludge over time. The longer it goes unfixed, the worse it gets until the engine internals fail to get proper lubrication, and then you have a real nightmare on your hands.

That the car is running hot is also a sign the cooling system is not working properly.

Odds are good your lower intake gaskets are causing this, since you know it needs to be replaced. However there's also the chance, especially if it continues to be driven (while getting hot) that the head gaskets could go or have gone. A compression test would confirm their condition.

You might have better luck getting what you want for the car if you have the lower intake gasket replaced, do a compression test, and change the oil.

If you don't feel like doing that, be aware that the issues mentioned don't qualify the car as a Clean valued vehicle. So don't be surprised to get lower offers. Just giving you a heads up.

If nothing else you should mention that the oil looks milky.

Damn ... I don't even know how to counter here. You're right, DF. Bottom line, you're right.

... There isn't much point in discussing it further is there? As much as I want to be right on how I'm trying to do this, I'm not. I can't sell the car for the minimum I need and I really can't pay to fix it. I guess I'm stuck driving it until it hits critical mass.

Well, I tried.

Holy shit ... how did I get in this mess?

Oh yeah, I bought a 12 year-old Camaro ... who's previous owner was the youngest church lady out of the crowd ... who didn't know how to properly maintenance it ... from a small used car lot ... with over 100,000 miles ... because I don't like certain cars ... that's how. Ha. What a perfect storm.

For Cheers and Jeers in January, tell Bobo to put me under Jeers for "member with worst buying sense" or something.

Edited August 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

Well, I'm going by KBB values here. Click the link in the ad, note each price, and read each description on the various conditions.

It's hard to say if the main issue the car has would be classified as a major mechanical problem. It does run and drive ok at the moment, but for how long I don't know. It's hard to make a judgment on that. It's almost like giving someone with cancer so many months to live; that can sometimes be wrong.

Worse case scenario, the car is still worth $3,100. At this point, to get this out of my hair for good, I would more than happy to accept that price, what money I've thrown away fixing it be damned.

KBB is only an estimate... real world numbers are totally different. I've never paid KBB.

Looking at ONLY '98 Camaros on my CL, there are 3 over your price... all are SS/Z28 or seriously modded. 3 are below your price... $3800 for a V6 5spd with half your mileage... $2100 V6 5 spd... and $1500 for a convertible V6 with a tap. Also a '99 V6 with 66K for $3900!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in its current condition, its worth about $1400, because the money you dumped into it has little bearing on its current value if the engine needs major repair. Sure, you might unload it on a sucker for much more, but you have to find the sucker.

At this moment, the degree as to how pertinent that information could be is debatable as what I'm thinking might be going on is little more than reasonable suspicion and there is no guarantee that's correct.

A year of Auto-Tech classes doesn't necessarily make me a mechanic and it's obvious my mechanical skills are somewhat limited at best. I could very well be wrong about that. Although my suspicions are quite strong, I haven't had them confirmed 100 percent. When a mechanic confirms what I think, then I'll put it up in the ad and work with a buyer accordingly.

I am currently seeking a second opinion to mine on weather or not the oil is definitely mixing and how fast it's degrading to the point where it becomes whole milk, so don't assume I'm trying to scam someone. As I've said before, my sense of right and wrong is stronger than that.

I'm doing this as I go because I don't have the slightest idea in hell how to handle this. I've sold a totaled vehicle, but not one with a problem like this. This is honestly a nightmare.

I've disclosed the major issue in the ad. If whoever wants to buy it wants a mechanic to tell them to what degree this has progressed, then I'll gladly drive the car to a shop.

ANY milkiness in the oil is a bad sign.

And yes, you do have a nightmare on your hands because the buyer can see the other car was totaled. For the current sale, you are aware of a problem and are hoping someone buys the car at nearly KBB. If the engine fails and they learn you knew this beforehand, its fraud.

Like I said in the ad, I'm trying to be as honest as I can. I'd like for a mechanic to buy it, actually. He'd know what the hell to do and would know what to expect. I know it won't turn out that way, though.

A mechanic will give you $500 bucks for it, tops. They can get stuff like this all day. He'll spend a day fixing it with $50 in parts and will turn around and sell it for $3000. Not a bad days work.

Its the law of supply and demand. In this society were 99% of the people can't CHECK their oil, let alone change it, NOBODY wants a broken car.

[Intrepidation]

Well you could change the intake gasket, and then the oil. It may take time, but just ask on the Camaro forums for help. That,a long with the FSM is how I changed my valve springs...and that's a far scarier project.