Panther Blues

[Blake Noble]

Um...GTI, Prelude...Cooper S...Cobalt SS...Focus SVT...Acura Integra GSR or Type R...RSX..Neon SRT-4...Neon ACR...Older Civic SI...Lots of good driving, good handling FWD cars.

Just sayin...because I graduated from high school...

Nice list, but like an idiot I guess, I have reservations about each car.

GTi = can't find one cheap, a little too small.

Prelude = can't find one that's not ragged out or riced out.

Cooper S = too expensive at the moment, too small.

Cobalt SS = well ... I can't really complain about much here at all except it's really out of my budget.

Focus SVT = can't find one.

Integra = see Prelude.

RSX = see Prelude and Cobalt SS.

Neon SRT-4 = see Prelude.

Civic Si = see Prelude.

I guess I shouldn't exclude all front-drivers. I would rock a '66 Toronado or an Aurora.

Actually, speaking of Auroras, this one would make a nice beater: http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/1887908206.html

However, they can be a PITA on maintenance, so I'm by no means set on one.

Going back to the GMT-400 option discussed earlier, I'd actually love to have a nice 2-door Tahoe. You can usually pick one up cheaper and in better condition than you can a Silverado of similar vintage. The issue is tracking one down and tracking one down with a owner who wouldn't mind having a Camaro MP at that.

EDIT: speak of the devil: http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/1871945375.html

Edited August 12, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

I hate to go on a Sixty-Eight style rant here, but I hate the way a front-wheel drive car, such as an Accord, handles and drives. I'm used to rear-wheel drive small trucks and coupes. That's what I started out driving.

For example, I really find that my parents' Aura is pretty awkward for me to drive anymore. Don't get me wrong, it's a really nice car, and it's perfect for a family sedan. If I were a married dude, I'd probably even break down and put one in my driveway. But, for a personal car, it's not for me.

It's preference, and realistically an impracticable one, but that's just the way I've been when it comes to buying DDs. I don't intend on changing that.

Then you've got a lot of heartache in front of you... or better have cubic dollars.

I've already been down this road... and I'm losing the battle. Every year, there are less and less cars, but more rust, faded paint, clapped out engines and broken plastic.

Thats why I finally got the Bonne... but I'm still not happy with it... but I don't know where to go from here... aside from some GTOs and G8s before they disappear into history...

Um...GTI, Prelude...Cooper S...Cobalt SS...Focus SVT...Acura Integra GSR or Type R...RSX..Neon SRT-4...Neon ACR...Older Civic SI...Lots of good driving, good handling FWD cars.

I've driven much of that list and consider then all to be crap... and most require serious pain for egress and exgress.

I guess I shouldn't exclude all front-drivers. I would rock a '66 Toronado or an Aurora.

I tried to own a '66 Toro... I'm glad I passed, it would have been a money pit disaster...

I would suggest a nice, big GM front driver... for now. Something supercharged. There are some nice hop-up parts for the Grand Prix GTPs. Sure, there still FWD, but can be made to be fast as hell. I was surprised how many Grand Prix GTP coupes were floating around.

[Intrepidation]

I hate to go on a Sixty-Eight style rant here, but I hate the way a front-wheel drive car, such as an Accord, handles and drives. I'm used to rear-wheel drive small trucks and coupes. That's what I started out driving.

It's worth comparing what you're looking another big FWD car. It's not exactly apples to apples, but it is worth comparing the specs of the larger, heavier FWD car.

1985 Monte Carlo SS:

0-60 mph in 8.4 seconds,

Quarter mile: 16.1 seconds

Skidpad: .82g

Slalom: 59.02 mph

2001 Dodge Intrepid R/T

0-60 mph in 7.7 seconds,

Quarter mile: 15.9 seconds

Skidpad: .85g

Slalom: 65.00 mph

So if you can live with the performance of a Monte from the that era, then you shouldn't be disappointed from something newer, and better taken care of than many of these F-Bodies you seem to have in your area.

Now, I don't drive my car on the ragged edge (I'd dare not do that from anything out of the 80's mind you), but I do drive it spiritedly on the back roads not far from once in a while, and not only have I never once wished it was RWD, I've always been impressed with the way it handles, and mine isn't even the R/T or Special suspension.

Just something to consider about evil FWD cars.

Also they can cruise at highway speed without issue.

I'm sure I could did up figured for another FWD car if I wanted but you know, I have this sort of thing memorized pretty good. You get the idea.

[Blake Noble]

It's worth comparing what you're looking another big FWD car. It's not exactly apples to apples, but it is worth comparing the specs of the larger, heavier FWD car.

1985 Monte Carlo SS:

0-60 mph in 8.4 seconds,

Quarter mile: 16.1 seconds

Skidpad: .82g

Slalom: 59.02 mph

2001 Dodge Intrepid R/T

0-60 mph in 7.7 seconds,

Quarter mile: 15.9 seconds

Skidpad: .85g

Slalom: 65.00 mph

So if you can live with the performance of a Monte from the that era, then you shouldn't be disappointed from something newer, and better taken care of than many of these F-Bodies you seem to have in your area.

Those performance figures for the Monte are easy to improve on, though, simply because of all of the aftermarket performance parts you can buy for a SBC. That's why I'm not really worried about stock performance here.

Now, I don't drive my car on the ragged edge (I'd dare not do that from anything out of the 80's mind you), but I do drive it spiritedly on the back roads not far from once in a while, and not only have I never once wished it was RWD, I've always been impressed with the way it handles, and mine isn't even the R/T or Special suspension.

Just something to consider about evil FWD cars.

I haven't driven an Intrepid, so I'll trust your word on this. You are, after all, the Intrepid guru.

I personally haven't driven a front-drive car that made me go, "Yeah! I can own just this and not have something rear-drive alongside it."

Also they can cruise at highway speed without issue.

The Regal couldn't because a.) it had a 307 and b.) it had 3.73 gears. That's a real match made in heaven.

A 305 or mild 350 would do excellent with 2.73s and upwards, but not much farther up. So not all '80s model rear-drivers would act the same as my Regal, topping out at 60 mph, provided I could find a cheap, decent one that's been left unmolested or set up right.

I'm sure I could did up figured for another FWD car if I wanted but you know, I have this sort of thing memorized pretty good. You get the idea.

Noted.

[Blake Noble]

Then you've got a lot of heartache in front of you... or better have cubic dollars.

I've already been down this road... and I'm losing the battle. Every year, there are less and less cars, but more rust, faded paint, clapped out engines and broken plastic.

Thats why I finally got the Bonne... but I'm still not happy with it... but I don't know where to go from here... aside from some GTOs and G8s before they disappear into history...

Oh, I know I'm in for a hell of a lot of heartache. The criteria I look for in a car is hardly matched by anything anymore and I just refuse to compromise. A owner/buyer like me, especially one as young as I am, is pretty much a novelty.

I've driven much of that list and consider then all to be crap... and most require serious pain for egress and exgress

I tried to own a '66 Toro... I'm glad I passed, it would have been a money pit disaster...

I don't think they're all complete crap, but I do know I can nitpick about them easily, and by that I mean I don't own a pair of rose colored glasses to put on when I see one.

A '66 Toro would just be a nice resto project, nothing more.

I would suggest a nice, big GM front driver... for now. Something supercharged. There are some nice hop-up parts for the Grand Prix GTPs. Sure, there still FWD, but can be made to be fast as hell. I was surprised how many Grand Prix GTP coupes were floating around.

That's a good suggestion, and I would probably buy one, but doing so would mean I would be keeping the Camaro and using it as a beater. And if I have the same luck I do with buying DD as I would buying a beater, then that would just be money ill spent.

[SAmadei]

That's a good suggestion, and I would probably buy one, but doing so would mean I would be keeping the Camaro and using it as a beater. And if I have the same luck I do with buying DD as I would buying a beater, then that would just be money ill spent.

I don't see why you'd keep the Camaro as a beater... seems to me beater=DD. Something that don't need to be perfect that you can put 300K miles on.

The Grand Prixs and Rivs are good DDs...

The problem here is the cars you are attracted to. My father always urged me to stay away from Camaros, Firebirds, muscle cars in general. The problem is not the cars, but the people who owned them first. Camaros, Firebirds, Monte Carlo SS's, 442s... these were beat to death by their owners... so the trick used to be to buy the less desirable cars... the Malibu or Cutlass with low mileage, but good engine. Trouble is... in 2010, those old A- and G-bodies are in short supply, as well.

Looking at ONLY '90s cars... You've got Camaros and Firebirds... both pre-beat to death. You have Caprices... most of whats out there are ex-police cars and ex-taxis... i.e., beat to death. Nothing else is RWD. In a few years, STSes, GTOs and G8's will become affordable... but they are already being abused... and will make the F-bodies look downright common.

The prime DD-type cars are the big GM FWD cars now. Bonnevilles, Park Avenues, LeSabres, Rivieras, Auroras, LSSes, 88s... these cars were owned and taken care of by mature drivers. Then you have the Grand Prix, Impala, Monte Carlo, Intregues, Centuries, Regals... also mostly mature owned... but somewhat abused. Nowhere near as abused as the F-bodies, though...

Thats why the Oldsmobile in the 'Thoughts' thread is so sweet. It appears to be a car well taken care of... it has a ton of life left in it.

I fear the DD situation in the next 10 years. Looking forward, I'm outta options. Big GM cars are on the decline... A few Chrysler options... which I doubt I'd switch to. I guess I'll be driving virtually the same cars I have now indefinitely. Honestly, about 2020, I'll be cutting up pickup trucks to stretch and convert 2009 G6s to RWD. Its just bleak. Another reason, I have to start building my own cars from scratch.

[Blake Noble]

I don't see why you'd keep the Camaro as a beater... seems to me beater=DD. Something that don't need to be perfect that you can put 300K miles on.

I misphrased that a bit ... I meant buying a GM front-driver would mean I would be using that car as a beater and keeping the Camaro around to sort out.

The Grand Prixs and Rivs are good DDs...

You know, I could see myself giving a W-Body Monte a chance. Maybe a Riv, like I said, or an Aurora. But it would have to be an addition to my fleet, not a really a replacement.

I actually discovered something while eliminating some things: the solenoid is pouring fluid into the driver's side footwell, so that may just be my problem after all. Damnest thing, I've never noticed it leaking like this until now. It's really gushing the stuff.

Edited August 13, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

I actually discovered something while eliminating some things: the solenoid is pouring fluid into the driver's side footwell, so that may just be my problem after all. Damnest thing, I've never noticed it leaking like this until now. It's really gushing the stuff.

Doh! ;-) We are on the way to our relatively simple fix. ;-)

Wait... solenoid?!? You mean clutch master cylinder, right?

[Blake Noble]

Doh! ;-) We are on the way to our relatively simple fix. ;-)

Wait... solenoid?!? You mean clutch master cylinder, right?

Yep. Actually, I'm beginning to suspect a bad line. I checked for any external leaks and noticed some of the gravel in the driveway under the driver's side of the car were saturated with fresh fluid.

So I have a leak inside the car and probably outside as well. I don't know what else it could be but a punctured/leaking line.

[Blake Noble]

Update: The clutch master cylinder was the root of my problem, but that's going to be the least of my worries.

In addition to a bad clutch master cylinder, Burford Chevrolet also found the following issues during one of their courtesy checks:

-Cooling issues*

-A bad tie rod end

-Oil pan leak**

*Apparantly, my Camaro was half way low on coolant. Jack Burford ran a $20 dollar pressure test and found out the lower intake gasket is going bad and they'd want $800 bucks to fix it.

**This is strange because I've haven't seen any significant oil leaks in my driveway.

So what am I going to do? Shell out the $300 bucks to pay for work done to the clutch master cylinder and the cooling system pressure test. Then I'm going car shopping. Again.

[z28luvr01]

The intake gasket you should be able to do yourself for a few bucks. They're not terrible - you could probably accomplish it in an afternoon.

As for the oil pan, Start by making sure the pan bolts are tight and wiping any residue off the bottom of the pan, engine cradle, etc. If it does it again, it's probably the gasket (assuming the pan isn't cracked and there's no issue with the drain plug). You *might* be able to lift the engine with a hoist high enough to wiggle the pan out and replace the gasket.

Of course, if it's not noticeable to you and you're checking the dipstick and the level doesn't appear to be dropping, just leave it. It's not worth the effort.

[Robert Hall]

Maybe try and use lots of high temp duct tape to seal the oil pan to the block?

[FAPTurbo]

1. Sell Car

2. Buy Fixie

3. ??????

4. Get Hipster Campus Chicks (Profit!)

It'll only cost you your self-esteem and respect!

But you could rock one of these babies! For only a quarter of the cost of an intake gasket repair, you too can look totally anti-corporate and indie! With the 'Ring-O-Star' coffee cup holder for your fixie, you can bring your double shot mocha 'expresso' (only corporate suburb losers say espresso) along with you to Arts School! Need to take your brew to the concert of your favorite band before they sell out?! 'Ring-O-Star' guarantees you can go up to 20MPH without getting your coffee onto your $200 skinny jeans that show off your emaciated, starving ass!

Heading down a hill and missing the brakes you removed yesterday!? No worries! Our patented technology means that when you smash your head into the brick wall of a Williamsburg apartment bloodying up your ironically cool hoodie, your coffee will stay totally hot and in its place so you can quickly grab a sip, and look like you only had an accident for ironic effect! It's THAT cool!

Don't keep a French press in your bag! That's what everyone else does, and it was only cool when you did it. Thanks to the 'Ring-O-Star' you can stash up to three more intellectual novels making you three times more mysterious! Don't delay, put more Dostoevsky in your swag bag today!

Our rubber grips are strategically located to conceal the logos on the coffee cups! No longer will you have to cover up the Starbucks logo for fear of enduring insults from your peers!

Walk, don't run! In fact, don't care! Because caring is for the unenlightened! So don't care and not buy a 'Ring-O-Star.' Because that would be like, the opposite of Ironic. It's like... 'Ronic!' So don't buy one!

[Intrepidation]

Update: The clutch master cylinder was the root of my problem, but that's going to be the least of my worries.

In addition to a bad clutch master cylinder, Burford Chevrolet also found the following issues during one of their courtesy checks:

-Cooling issues*

-A bad tie rod end

-Oil pan leak**

*Apparantly, my Camaro was half way low on coolant. Jack Burford ran a $20 dollar pressure test and found out the lower intake gasket is going bad and they'd want $800 bucks to fix it.

**This is strange because I've haven't seen any significant oil leaks in my driveway.

So what am I going to do? Shell out the $300 bucks to pay for work done to the clutch master cylinder and the cooling system pressure test. Then I'm going car shopping. Again.

Replace the lower intake manifold gasket yourself. It can't be that much harder than on a 3.5. Gaskets will probably run you $20-$30. Can be done in afternoon.

Tie rod end: again, replace it yourself or if you can't be bothered have a shop do that (only takes an hour for them) and then have it aligned.

Oil pan gasket: Depends on the extent of the leak. If it's not gushing oil I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep an eye on the oil and top off as needed. You can fix that yourself if you want. gasket's is probably $20-$30. It's the labor that could be a PITA. The Grand Marquis has a leak from the oil pan gasket, but it's such a PITA and such a slow leak it's not worth the trouble or cost of paying someone to do it.

It makes a lot more sense to just fix what you have, since you know it's faults, then sell it off just to buy another car that will end up needing work and repeat the process all over again. This is like, the third installment of this sort of thing. With the cars you're looking at you're going to keep running into this, so you might as well end teh cycle and fix this Camaro's problems, and then you'll be good to go.

[Cory Wolfe]

I haven't driven an Intrepid, so I'll trust your word on this. You are, after all, the Intrepid guru.

I personally haven't driven a front-drive car that made me go, "Yeah! I can own just this and not have something rear-drive alongside it."

Mk6 VW GTI. It's easily the best handling FWD car I've personally driven and the aftermarket for VW's is pretty immense. Granted, it is a hatchback and I never pegged you as a hatchback sort of guy.

Update: The clutch master cylinder was the root of my problem, but that's going to be the least of my worries.

In addition to a bad clutch master cylinder, Burford Chevrolet also found the following issues during one of their courtesy checks:

-Cooling issues*

-A bad tie rod end

-Oil pan leak**

*Apparantly, my Camaro was half way low on coolant. Jack Burford ran a $20 dollar pressure test and found out the lower intake gasket is going bad and they'd want $800 bucks to fix it.

**This is strange because I've haven't seen any significant oil leaks in my driveway.

So what am I going to do? Shell out the $300 bucks to pay for work done to the clutch master cylinder and the cooling system pressure test. Then I'm going car shopping. Again.

The oil pan and intake gasket should be a relatively easy fix. Gaskets are cheap and its not like you're replacing a head gasket, so you don't have to tear much of the motor apart, everything is pretty much on top (or bottom) without many parts in the way. Same with the tie rod. That one, you just want to make sure to get it aligned afterwords.

[Blake Noble]

It makes a lot more sense to just fix what you have, since you know it's faults, then sell it off just to buy another car that will end up needing work and repeat the process all over again. This is like, the third installment of this sort of thing. With the cars you're looking at you're going to keep running into this, so you might as well end teh cycle and fix this Camaro's problems, and then you'll be good to go.

While you do make a good point, I'm just sick of having to spend, spend, spend on a daily driver. The whole point of a daily driver is to own a car that you can drive everyday and not worry about small things going wrong all the time constantly.

The only car I've really been able to enjoy has been, of course, the Cutlass. I haven't been able to enjoy, well, nothing I've bought as a daily driver.

You're a prime example of someone who's really been able to get the most out and really of their car, upgrading things on your car just for the fun of it and upgrading and making the stuff that needed to be replaced better.

That's how I'm seeing things.

[Intrepidation]

While you do make a good point, I'm just sick of having to spend, spend, spend on a daily driver. The whole point of a daily driver is to own a car that you can drive everyday and not worry about small things going wrong all the time constantly.

Well, they way to look at it is this: You're very unlikely to find a car you want that won't be without issues. Your best choice is to either fix what you have, and then you won't get caught in this scenario again, or get something you won't like but will be have a better chance of being problem free for a while from the moment you purchase it. Considering how strongly you feel about what car you want as a daily driver, I think fixing what you have will be your best bet. The problems you mentioned aren't too expensive to fix yourself.

The only car I've really been able to enjoy has been, of course, the Cutlass. I haven't been able to enjoy, well, nothing I've bought as a daily driver.

That seems to be a consequence of what type of car you want in your budget and the age of the car. Of course your could pay a lot more and get one that will have been well cared for(at least better odds of it), but then you'll have spent more than you would just taking care of this one's issues.

You're a prime example of someone who's really been able to get the most out and really of their car, upgrading things on your car just for the fun of it and upgrading and making the stuff that needed to be replaced better.

A big thing there is that I genuinely fell in love with the car, and I'm the sort of person who never plans to get rid of car. Has it given me a few trouble occasionally? Sure, but those experiences have allowed me to learn more about the car and how to work on cars (I would never have imagined replacing valve springs and seals before). It's my car, I know it's faults and acknowledge that. It's 10 years old and has over 200k on it. But I'm ok with that.

I also take great pride (and I'm very anal) about how well the cars run. I can't stand it when there's a foreign noise and will want to find the solution ASAP.

Speaking of which, now that the valve spring project is done, time to tackle the rear brakes!

And yes, I got bitten by the mod bug.

[Robert Hall]

While you do make a good point, I'm just sick of having to spend, spend, spend on a daily driver. The whole point of a daily driver is to own a car that you can drive everyday and not worry about small things going wrong all the time constantly.

That's why old high mileage used cars make bad daily drivers. Old cars will break, break your wallet, let you down. Living w/ an old car as a DD can be a world of pain and misery.

[Intrepidation]

That's why old high mileage used cars make bad daily drivers. Old cars will break, break your wallet, let you down. Living w/ an old car as a DD can be a world of pain and misery.

I beg to differ.

[Blake Noble]

Well, they way to look at it is this: You're very unlikely to find a car you want that won't be without issues. Your best choice is to either fix what you have, and then you won't get caught in this scenario again, or get something you won't like but will be have a better chance of being problem free for a while from the moment you purchase it. Considering how strongly you feel about what car you want as a daily driver, I think fixing what you have will be your best bet. The problems you mentioned aren't too expensive to fix yourself.

While I didn't have any hang ups working on what the Cutlass needed mechanically, I'll admit I'm a little doubtful to trust myself to work on the Camaro.

A big thing there is that I genuinely fell in love with the car, and I'm the sort of person who never plans to get rid of car.

Neither am I. In a way, I wish like hell I saved my Firebird, but everyone kept saying, it's totalled, you can't fix it for under 5k, etc., etc. That car was excellent mechanically and it probably would have kept running all the way to 200,000 miles without any major issues. If I still had it, I could have made quite a few modifications to it by now and it would have been a brilliant car. Hindsight is always 20/20.

And yes, I got bitten by the mod bug.

There's a lot of mods I've been wanting to do to the Camaro. Someone was going to sell me a set of great C6 5-spokes for $350 and I was going to do it, but you know how the rest of the story goes.

Edited August 14, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

Mk6 VW GTI. It's easily the best handling FWD car I've personally driven and the aftermarket for VW's is pretty immense. Granted, it is a hatchback and I never pegged you as a hatchback sort of guy.

Actually, you only pegged me half-way right there. I'm not a 5-door hatchback sort of guy.

The oil pan and intake gasket should be a relatively easy fix. Gaskets are cheap and its not like you're replacing a head gasket, so you don't have to tear much of the motor apart, everything is pretty much on top (or bottom) without many parts in the way. Same with the tie rod. That one, you just want to make sure to get it aligned afterwords.

I don't really doubt I can fix the tie rod and whatever is up with the oil pan if I had better place where I could work underneath a car. I highly doubt I could tackle the lower intake gasket.

Another issue with fixing the lower intake gasket is that there is very little room to work on the engine near the back of the engine bay on a 3.8 Camaro. The back of the engine is basically setting underneath the dashboard.

[Z-06]

**This is strange because I've haven't seen any significant oil leaks in my driveway.

So what am I going to do? Shell out the $300 bucks to pay for work done to the clutch master cylinder and the cooling system pressure test. Then I'm going car shopping. Again.

May be it is connected with the blinker fluid reservoir, which is being replenished.

Fix it and keep for a while before deciding to get rid of it, unless you get all money's worth back.

[Robert Hall]

Actually, you only pegged me half-way right there. I'm not a 5-door hatchback sort of guy.

My first car was a FWD diesel 5dr hatchback...but since then, I've only had RWD cars and RWD/4WD SUVs.

[daves87rs]

Buy an escort? Cheap, and they run...

[Intrepidation]

Neither am I. In a way, I wish like hell I saved my Firebird, but everyone kept saying, it's totalled, you can't fix it for under 5k, etc.,

Well I wasn't one of them.

Buy an escort? Cheap, and they run...

I'd rather own a Civic...or a Prizm.

[Satty]

[Blake Noble]

I'll be long gone by the time Burreuh has a public transit system. You'd think a town that built an So-Many-Odd Thousand "eco-village" a few years ago would really frown upon cars. No; in fact, there are a lot of Subarus here, which should tell you what makes up a good percentage of the town's population.

[Blake Noble]

Well I wasn't one of them.

... Indeed you weren't.

I'd rather own a Civic...or a Prizm.

I'd rather use Satty's bus pass.

[Intrepidation]

I wouldn't. I hate buses with an undying passion.

[Blake Noble]

I wouldn't. I hate buses with an undying passion.

See the post above that one.

[SAmadei]

Well, they way to look at it is this: You're very unlikely to find a car you want that won't be without issues. Your best choice is to either fix what you have, and then you won't get caught in this scenario again, or get something you won't like but will be have a better chance of being problem free for a while from the moment you purchase it. Considering how strongly you feel about what car you want as a daily driver, I think fixing what you have will be your best bet. The problems you mentioned aren't too expensive to fix yourself.

Everything DF is talking about is part of what I'm trying to help convince you about.

Cars cost money. If you got a "steal" you will put money into it. If you buy something CPO, yeah, you won't put much money in it for a long time.

In my case, I like to keep a log of repairs I have done... and I overdo jobs... like suspension... I overhauled the Van's entire front suspension because I wanted to be sure it would be good for the next 200K, even though I didn't need everything. Unless I am destitute, I can't imagine selling my father's Van. Its too useful and I've never get enough $$ for its useful value. It may look like a faded, 20 year old Chevy Van... but its a 1 ton... and I now know what items are a problem... and I will get to them. Once done, the Van will be pretty bullet proof for a long time.

Also, by doing the work yourself, you can do 5x as much at a time. You might not have been able to definitely diagnose the clunk in the suspension... but since I was able to replace it all, I definitely eliminated it. It's also a learning process.

You're uncompromising ideas WILL be compromised... as I've alluded to... I know. When I read your posts, you sound like me 20 years ago. I was unable to remain uncompromised... and I had the benefit of cars that were 20 years younger and much more common.

The question will be... how will you compromise? Newer, boring cars, requiring little effort? Older cars that require a given amount of work done by oneself? ;-)

That seems to be a consequence of what type of car you want in your budget and the age of the car. Of course your could pay a lot more and get one that will have been well cared for(at least better odds of it), but then you'll have spent more than you would just taking care of this one's issues.

Same bit I was touching on, as well. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

A few other comments... The dealership is going to flag a lot of stuff that is passable... hoping for a big job. I took my Tempest to get brakes and Sears felt the need to write up everything that was wrong... which was quite a bit... came up with something like a $5K bill. Well, I ended up replacing my own brakes (as usual) and had no problem getting lots of mileage outta the other "broken" things. I'm sure if the "Thoughts" 88 was brought to a dealer, he would have a field day, as well.

As for the Firebird, I feel its disposal was premature... as you are clearly interested in similar cars... it would have been a source of a lot of parts at a minimum. But, of course, I understand that when at the whim of others, storing a parts car can be a problem.

[Intrepidation]

[Blake Noble]

Well, I know I'm at a definite crossroads here: keep the car and deal with something new breaking every other week? Or sell it and try getting this right one last time?

I've thrown together a list of what I've been out on the Camaro so far:

$115 for exhaust issues/upgrades (that still didn't address/fix the main problem)

$375 for plugs, wires, and a coil pack I didn't need (how I let myself get taken for a ride ... I'll never know)

$325 for a new ICM + labor

$125 for a new catalytic converter

$225 for a new clutch master cylinder

$20 dollar pressure test

That totals up to $1,185. Add that on top of the $3,800 I paid for it and it totals up to almost $5,000 dollars, which is a little extreme for a V6 Camaro. $5,000 would have bought me a reasonable-mileage Z/28.

Then there's the list of what it still needs:

New pads and rotors at all four corners

New O2 sensors

New lower intake gasket

New oil pan gasket and drain plug

New tie rod

An alignment

Not to mention the clear coat is starting bubble in a few small places, so I'd have to have a new coat of that sometime soon.

So a rough estimate of what I would have had dumped in the car rises somewhere between $1,800 to $2,000.

I suppose my main reason of wanting to get rid of it is because all of these little issues are adding up and that I haven't been able to really enjoy my daily driver. I bought it thinking I would finally have a car that I could just dig right into with upgrades and whatever, but that hasn't been the case. I just have a very sour relationship with the car and, because of that, I'm sick and bored with it. I'm also frustrated that I don't trust myself enough to work on it nor do I have the proper space to even attempt some of this stuff in the first place.

Edited August 14, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

New pads and rotors at all four corners

New O2 sensors

New lower intake gasket

New oil pan gasket and drain plug

New tie rod

An alignment

Of those only two of them are items that aren't normal wear parts, you'll end up having to do with any car that isn't new, or used, like-new and of the two only the intake gasket would need to be done.

You're going to run into little issues that add up with any car you buy in your price range that you want. Like I said, you could either spend thousands more and get something that will have more of the maintenance done already, or buy something cheaper that you don't like but wouldn't need much, or work on what you have.

[Blake Noble]

I'm just going to leave it up to fate to decide what happens to the car. If the car sells in a few weeks after I get it back, it sells. If it doesn't, I'll keep it and tough it out.

[A Horse With No Name]

Aren't you glad you didn't buy that trashed red 79 "redbird" Firebird and dump sixty grand into it and still have a pile of dog crap?

[SAmadei]

That totals up to $1,185. Add that on top of the $3,800 I paid for it and it totals up to almost $5,000 dollars, which is a little extreme for a V6 Camaro. $5,000 would have bought me a reasonable-mileage Z/28.

Alright... lets compare to the recently purchased Grand Prix GTP. We found a wide variety of GPs out there... Could have paid as low as $1200... but we got one at $3200... it was lower in mileage than I could find elsewhere, one owner and the owner was mechanically inclined. The car was bought to prep for a 3 year trip... Yeah, I will not see it for three years, so I was tasked with doing a low budget Overhaulin' in 7 days. Final bill... $1000, not counting that the car will need tires in about 1.5 years. Yeah, I could have found better GPs at $4200~4500... but then I would STILL be putting upwards of $1000 in them... brakes, suspension, tune up, tires, etc.

Yeah the GP has some disappointments... The exhaust is not as perfect as I'd like... but that judged to be "good enough". Same with tie rod ends. But overall, I'm confidant the car will last... its already gone about 4K in miles.

Then there's the list of what it still needs:

New pads and rotors at all four corners

New O2 sensors

New lower intake gasket

New oil pan gasket and drain plug

New tie rod

An alignment

DF is right that the hypothetical $5K Camaro Z28 would also need a bunch of stuff fixed... also, I imagine a Z28 would have a more worn out drivetrain, from numerous burnouts, high speed chases and other showing off.

I suppose my main reason of wanting to get rid of it is because all of these little issues are adding up and that I haven't been able to really enjoy my daily driver. I bought it thinking I would finally have a car that I could just dig right into with upgrades and whatever, but that hasn't been the case. I just have a very sour relationship with the car and, because of that, I'm sick and bored with it. I'm also frustrated that I don't trust myself enough to work on it nor do I have the proper space to even attempt some of this stuff in the first place.

This is where you sound like my old roommate from college. He got bored with a car as soon as the first or second thing broke. In fact, he would take out his anger on the car... and more would break.

As for trusting yourself or having the proper space... Well, I've learned that any space one gets is still not "proper"... it can be an easy excuse to not get greasy and sweaty. Anymore, I just pray that my days of fixing a car in a lane of traffic during a downpour are over.

And for trusting yourself... well, it sounds like you are elevating those doing the work on your car to a higher level. Its not the case. Mechanics make mistakes. Sometimes serious mistakes... and you have to live with them. Between the internet and some common sense, you can work your trust up.

Trust me, between the internet and Harbor Freight, its easier to fix cars not than ever. Plus, the OBD2 and the machining and metallurgy on the cars make it somewhat easier to figure out whats going on, as well.

[Blake Noble]

Aren't you glad you didn't buy that trashed red 79 "redbird" Firebird and dump sixty grand into it and still have a pile of dog crap?

Ha, yeah. Considering that particular car was out of "gotta have a 2nd-gen Firebird" desperation. It would have made a neat project, but it would have been a horrible DD.

[Intrepidation]

I'm also frustrated that I don't trust myself enough to work on it nor do I have the proper space to even attempt some of this stuff in the first place.

Just have a little confidence, do lots of research, and as plenty of questions. That's how I got through replacing the valve springs and seals, the tie rod bushings, the first time I took off the intake plenum, etc.

[Blake Noble]

I've found one car to trade the Camaro to that might hold some promise. I'll know more about it tomorrow.

[Blake Noble]

Well, this is what I went and checked out: http://lexington.craigslist.org/ctd/1900779419.html

'99 5.9 R/T with 72,000 miles.

It may be highly irrational, but I'm considering borrowing a extra few thousand bucks in student loans to pay for the difference. It will be a 2-year deferred loan and it is a "school-related expense" so what the hell?*

*(on this thought, should the truck not work out, I may just do this to pay for some repairs to the Camaro, idklol)

Edited August 16, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

Well it does look like a nice truck (in photos at least), but it might be a good idea go for one that's maybe not an R/T and therefore less expensive, so you don't need to pay for it with loans.

It's worth noting that retail value for a 72k `99 R/T is $6,510

[Blake Noble]

Well it does look like a nice truck (in photos at least), but it might be a good idea go for one that's maybe not an R/T and therefore less expensive, so you don't need to pay for it with loans.

It's worth noting that retail value for a 72k `99 R/T is $6,510

It's a very clean truck in person. Very clean. Ran great as far as I could tell and a visual inspection of all the fluids seemed to be okay.

Actually, in my area, the truck's suggested retail value is $6,110 according to KBB.com, $400 bucks cheaper. Most dealers would price that truck a full $1,000 under that price in order to ensure a quick sell, so I'm thinking a good offer on that truck would be something like $4800 to $5100 bucks. Very reasonable and realistic I think.

Actually, I'd say I may be able to walk away with that truck with very little to extra, if nothing at all, to pay in boot if I present all of the facts to the dealer. It will take a hell of a lot of negotiation. The dealer mentioned the truck was local trade, so I know they don't have more than $3,000 in it, if you can believe the KBB trade-in value.

I have a little extra time to kill this week since it's going to be a while for Adobe to ship Creative Suite 5 to me and I can't complete my assignments without it anyway. The truck's also conveniently located right down the road from where I'm attending classes so ... we'll see.

Edited August 17, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

The exhaust note on this 5.9 R/T is one of the best I've ever heard, right up there with the Pontiac 400 and LS1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmRDirm_SlA&feature=related

Someone performed a six-speed conversion on that one. (EDIT: Just found out it was done by a company based out of TN. Damn. Now I really love the idea of that truck and that means I'll probably never get it.)

I'm really loving the idea of that truck. There are still two huge issues to be addressed: 1.) is it as good as it seems to be in person and on paper and 2.) can I convince the dealer to be far more reasonable on what they're asking?

Edited August 17, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

Make sure to check the condition of the fluids. Check for white flakes around the oil cap/neck for signs of coolant, check the condition of the coolant, what color it is, etc. Oh and go for as long a test drive as they will allow. Check the whatever bushings you can and isolators too.

[Blake Noble]

Make sure to check the condition of the fluids. Check for white flakes around the oil cap/neck for signs of coolant, check the condition of the coolant, what color it is, etc. Oh and go for as long a test drive as they will allow. Check the whatever bushings you can and isolators too.

I'll be sure double check the condition fluids again when I go back and check the truck out again on Thursday and give it thorough test drive. When I checked the truck out today, I checked the level of the coolant and it was full, the color was a healthy Prestone green. The oil didn't seem milky, maybe just a little dirty.

I'm planning to bring my dad along this time as well. He's owned three different second-gen Dakotas, one '98 3.9L, one '99 5.2L (he came close to giving it to me, but I got a S-10 instead and the rest is history), and his current truck is a '02 Dakota Quad Cab with the 5.9L. He should be able to give me a good second opinion on it.

My main concern is the transmission really. I know it can sometimes be a problem area on these trucks.

The engines generally are pretty bulletproof.

... I will say, though that the 5.2L in the old man's second Dakota starting going through 2 quarts of oil every other day before he traded it to the '02 5.9L. The '99 5.2L only had 92,000 miles on it. It was strange, too. You could drive that truck, say, on a 50 mile round trip, get out and check the oil and see it was very low after knowing you had just topped it off or completely changed it. As far as we could tell, there wasn't a bad gasket causing the oil loss. You couldn't smell oil burning and there wasn't smoke gushing out of the exhaust. I thought it might have been a bad oil pump. Even still, if you didn't know the truck was using oil like it was, you would swear it was just as sturdy as a brick. Sort of frightening in way, but remarkable in another.

Edited August 17, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

More crap to back my side of the case when I talk bidness with the dealer:

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/1902686894.html (<-- ace in the hole)

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/1889112699.html (<-- ace in the hole #2)

http://louisville.craigslist.org/ctd/1885378044.html (<-- just adding fuel to the fire, I hate huge rims on a 2wd truck, but hey it can sometimes justify a higher sale price, the truck I want just has stockers)

There's also all of these:

http://delaware.craigslist.org/cto/1891526326.html

http://nh.craigslist.org/ctd/1899781675.html

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/cto/1895965686.html

http://lincoln.craigslist.org/cto/1900104202.html

If anyone has any negotiation tips, drop me a line in here. I'm determined to be their worst nightmare: the determined, informed buyer.

[Blake Noble]

Drove the Dakota today. Excellent pickup. Mechanically, it's been taken care of. It will, however, need two things: 1.) new speaker grilles for the door panels and 2.) the "Magnum V8" badge for the right front fender. Oh, and it has the typical shotty DaimlerChrysler clear coat fading away on the driver's side door, but it isn't too bad yet. Overall, it seems to be a pretty solid truck.

As for trading even, the dealer said he would want me to pay the difference between my car and the truck. Well, as it turns out, there isn't any difference in value. You can see where this is headed ...

[z28luvr01]

Which one is this - the black one you originally poated? This should be good for you if you get it. If you're worried about the tranny, do yourself a favor and install an auxiliary transmission cooler as soon as you get it. They're very cheap and pretty simple to install yourself. That should lengthen its life significantly. Check the fluid before you buy it, and make sure it's a clear red and doesn't smell burnt. Regardless of how it looks on the dipstick, change the fluid anyway and replace the filter.

Good luck, and hopefully this ends your car troubles once and for all.

[Blake Noble]

Which one is this - the black one you originally poated?

Yep, it's the black 5.9 R/T.

I was actually a little surprised when I finally noticed the clear coat on the driver's door. I can, however, overlook it because it's not exactly terrible to the point that it really makes the whole truck look bad. Not only that, it just works in my favor.

I do wonder exactly who was Chrysler's supplier of clear coat during the '97 to '02 time frame? The clear coat on dad's 02 is starting to do that whole weird fading out thing. His '99 5.2 also did it. In fact, I have rarely seen a Damiler-era ChryCo product without this issue.

This should be good for you if you get it. If you're worried about the tranny, do yourself a favor and install an auxiliary transmission cooler as soon as you get it. They're very cheap and pretty simple to install yourself. That should lengthen its life significantly. Check the fluid before you buy it, and make sure it's a clear red and doesn't smell burnt. Regardless of how it looks on the dipstick, change the fluid anyway and replace the filter.

Good luck, and hopefully this ends your car troubles once and for all.

Excellent suggestions Z and thanks.