Panther Blues

[Blake Noble]

lol funny title.

Anyway, the Camaro's gas gauge has its head up its ass. Went out of town, filled it up to a half-tank. It was about a 100 mile trip there and back. My car will go for 400 miles on a full-tank, which a full Camaro gas tank holds 15.5 gallons. That equals up to around 25 mpg in mixed conditions. That's about average gas mileage for a V6 Camaro with a 5-speed.

So if this is true, my car could have made this trip on about 1/4 of a tank, right? I've done it before, so it did it again, right?

No.

Apparently, it took the whole damn half-tank to do it.

It also somehow managed to go about 50 miles reading flat empty.

So today, I put five bucks in it. It obviously had more gas than it was reading.

The gas gauge went to a 1/4 tank.

Drove a total of 40 miles today. The car runs out of gas and I have to make a call to get a gallon of gas to me.

Now I'm likely going to be out for a faulty sender and I still have no clue where the hell this insane rattling and squeaking from the back of the car is coming from.

[Intrepidation]

This is not about 68 nor is it about a Ford product. I am disappoint.

Hope you get it fixed though. When the GM's tank is full the needle swings off the edge of the gauge. Works normally after you use some gas, fun little quirk.

[Satty]

Considering I have a high school diploma, I think your car has a slight mechanical issue.

[Blake Noble]

This is not about 68 nor is it about a Ford product. I am disappoint.

This is about my car which is, by certain standards, a Ninety8Panther.

Hope you get it fixed though. When the GM's tank is full the needle swings off the edge of the gauge. Works normally after you use some gas, fun little quirk.

I'd be happy to have a quirk like that versus this pain in the ass problem I have now.

I'm too lazy to drive based on known fuel range. I sometimes drive like an asshole, so my range varies by as much as 20 miles. I want to drive, not do basic subtraction every time I pass Grandpa bring_Buick_back in his Landau Park Avenue.

[vonVeezelsnider]

The gas gauge went to a 1/4 tank.

My Cavalier was of similar vintage to your Camaro and I bet it had a similar fuel pump too. Towards the end the gas gauge wasn't working very well at all... it was doing all sorts of weird $h! including that. Eventually it just stopped working altogether- got in the car after school and started driving home one day- Gas gauge went to full when I started the car (tank was 3/4 full) and over the next five minutes the gas gauge cruised from "F" right over to "E" then back from "E" to "F", back and forth back and forth until I got home. Turned off the car, turned it back on again and the thing was pegged at "F" where it remained for the duration of the time I owned the car.

[ocnblu]

Uh... buy a gas can, put two gallons in it and carry it around in the back of the car until and if you decide to fix it. I graduated, too.

[!!!TED!!!]

LOL!

On Good Friday, and for the first time in my life, I ran out of gas too!

It was because of my own miserly stupidity as my guage works correctly.

The sad part of it all was that the car stopped in the middle of a busy intersection, uphill, and a block from the gas station (I could see it at the next lights!). I don't carry a gas canister either. Lots of embarrassment followed.

I hope you get it all sorted out Mr. Knight.

[daves87rs]

OW.....

[A Horse With No Name]

Hope you get it sorted out, sir...

[Camino LS6]

The wagon guage is permanently on "F", and yes, I've run out.

Very annoying.

I'm not even sure I can find the sending unit for it.

[Delta Force79]

My '85 Fifth Avenue's gas gauge stopped working one day about a mile down the road after I topped it off. The gauge went to full, I left and started driving next thing I noticed as I looked down at the gauges I saw my fuel light on and the gauge was on E. I never bothered fixing it as I had a fairly good indication of when to fill up. But I ran out of gas about 20 times in the time I drove it that way. Especially once my fuel tank began leaking. Leaking fuel and not having a gas gauge really makes for an interesting commute. I didn't bother fixing the leak either which I know was stupid on my part, I just got tired of spending money on that pos. I ended up getting my Oldsmobile registered again and junked the Chrysler.

[Blake Noble]

Well, now the SES light is back again and the car is sputtering badly in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear.

I'm betting on the fuel filter, which is a job I can't do (I don't have the means to fix the sender, either).

The clutch is also getting ready to go. The return after letting off of it is very delayed and I think it's slow about engaging and disengaging completely in first gear.

Personally, I'm starting to get annoyed ... and usually that means ...

EDIT: And this is tempting as well. But it has issues of it's own: http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/1711829164.html

EDIT AGAIN: I also know of two F4 Firebirds for sale or trade ...

Edited April 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[Justin Bimmer]

My fuel gauge in the 2000 Grand Prix is always on full too. My mechanic told me to leave it be. I have and I just use my mileage as a guide.

[Blake Noble]

I've realized this car has turned out to be a bigger money pit than anything I've owned thus far.

I've been out:

$115 for exhaust issues/upgrades (that still didn't address/fix the main problem)

$375 for plugs, wires, and a coil pack I didn't need (how I let myself get taken for a ride ... I'll never know)

$325 for a new ICM + labor

$125 for a new catalytic converter

That's just about a grand total of one grand.

Adding in whatever it's going to cost to fix these fuel delivery issues, it's going to push well beyond that mark.

It only cost a mere $500 to get the Regal back on the road.

The Firebird gave me great service after fixing a few cheap odds and ends before ... well I don't like talking about it.

The Sonoma was starting to develop a few issues, but nothing that would have turned out to be like this.

While I loved the Monte, it would have turned out to be just as bad of a money pit. I'm actually thankful now, though, that I couldn't find many parts for it, so that sort of saved us from each other in a way coupled with my own outrage and aggravation over the expense of new parts.

I don't count the Cutlass because that's different in my opinion.

Well ... you know, if I didn't buy it and spent so much on it, I probably could have had a better car by now. So yeah. It does count, never mind.

I have college in the fall. And I don't need to be worrying about a damn car all of the time.

Something is going to have to give here.

Edited April 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[ocnblu]

Maybe the clutch problem is hydraulic, not mechanical. Is the fluid level good?

[Camino LS6]

Probably needs a fuel pump/sending unit, that could be setting the SES.

Common problem with in-tank pumps on injected cars.

Not fun, not cheap, but worth doing.

[Intrepidation]

Fuel pump = not fun. One first gen LH cars, there was an access panel under the back seat that allowed you to remove the fuel pump without dropping the tank. Second gens don't have this panel, requiring you to drop the tank to remove the pump. That is not a job I would be willing to do myself.

[SAmadei]

Fuel pump = not fun. One first gen LH cars, there was an access panel under the back seat that allowed you to remove the fuel pump without dropping the tank. Second gens don't have this panel, requiring you to drop the tank to remove the pump. That is not a job I would be willing to do myself.

Meh... did it on the '99 Bonne, which is not a particularly easy car to do it with. Later cars have an access panel.

In my case, the hardest part was getting the rubber hoses for the filler and vapor recovery off. They were really fused on, and there was little room to get some muscle on it.

To tell the truth, the Bonne had a bunch of stuff in the way, yet, that stuff helped the situation... as it acted as a shelf to rest the tank on. The job was harder looking than it turned out to be.

When I did the '91 Firebird or '89 fullsize van, it was actually MUCH harder.

In any case, the most important thing is jacking the car _VERY_ high. 3-4 feet minimum... this is tricky, as some cars will put the nose on the ground... or want to teeter back and forth... so one must be careful. Next important thing is to get as much gas out as possible.

[Robert Hall]

Fuel pump = not fun. One first gen LH cars, there was an access panel under the back seat that allowed you to remove the fuel pump without dropping the tank. Second gens don't have this panel, requiring you to drop the tank to remove the pump. That is not a job I would be willing to do myself.

Fox Mustangs are like that...the shop had to drop the tank in my '87 GT to replace the pump a few years ago..

[Blake Noble]

The number coil pack for cylinders 2 and 5, if I remember correctly, were the cause for the engine to set off the "oh shit" light the last time.

It hasn't come back so far but the fuel gauge continues to lose function, as is the clutch at the moment. Pressure on the pedal now sporadically ranges from awful to great. The hydraulic fluid level is fine. I'm fully expecting the last remaining unchanged coil pack to go bad anytime now as well; the throttle response is starting to get lumpy in the mid-range gears like it did the last time.

I don't mind routine maintenance but ...

Edited May 20, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

The clutch bit the dust tonight, out of the blue, no warning, no provocation. Very disappointing.

[ocnblu]

Maybe something simple broke in the linkage.

[A Horse With No Name]

Fox Mustangs are like that...the shop had to drop the tank in my '87 GT to replace the pump a few years ago..

Once you've done it a few times, it is pretty easy...I've done it.

The clutch bit the dust tonight, out of the blue, no warning, no provocation. Very disappointing.

You might try to buy a heavy duty clutch, one from a company that sells racing products. Not every heavy duty clutch is super stiff.

Considering I have a high school diploma, I think your car has a slight mechanical issue.

Considering I can fix darn near anything, I would agree.

[Blake Noble]

1st Order of Buisness: Fix that clutch.

2nd Order of Buisness: Maybe, just maybe, buy an '83 Cutlass (with T-Tops no less) for $500 bucks for a decent beater if it isn't a total rust bucket. Maybe restore eventually it since the '72 is just about there? I don't know. I'm going to check it out Monday.

[Blake Noble]

Outlook: plans shelved.

I called for an estimate (since I obviously can't drive this car anywhere for a full diagnosis) on what it's going to take to fix the clutch: $1,500 bucks. While I know I could get $500 bucks together for a Cutlass beater, $1,500 bucks is a whole 'nother story.

I also played my trump card: having my dad's friend who helped me out on the Regal 307 swap help me out on the clutch.

Either way, it still would be too much for me to bother investing in. I already have around $1,000 invested in the car as far as what I've replaced on it. Adding on another $1,000 plus would make this Camaro the biggest money pit I've owned when you also consider that would be $2,000 bucks plus I would never see again should I get into a situation where I really have to sell the car.

I should have never sold the Monte Carlo. If I had waited just one more week, I would have invested $1,500 bucks into a car that would have returned my money. Something-something what should have, could have, would have been, whatever.

So, this is what I'm possibly going to try to do first: replace the fluid, get the clutch acting temporarily right, then take it to an unsuspecting dealer. I'd feel far more guilty if I unloaded it on a private buyer than I would some shit-spot on the side of the road car lot. I'm also starting to think that's what someone did to the car before they unloaded it on the lot I bought it from.

As for what I'll get next, I don't have the slightest idea in hell. I wouldn't mind trading the Camaro in on a '04 GTO and financing the difference on an 8 year loan if I could, but it would put the biggest financial strain on me I've ever had so far.

[Satty]

Good to see Congress is still in session

[Blake Noble]

Good to see Congress is still in session

My DDs = always the opposite of progress, so you get a cookie sir. What'll you have?

[z28luvr01]

Once you get the situation with the Camaro sorted out, would you consider a regular cab short bed Silverado - either GMT800, GMT400, or even earlier? Consider:

RWD

V8

reliable

economical for their size

Plenty of room to work on

readily available

can be had for cheap

low insurance

Even though it might not be your best choice, it does have many of the attributes you're looking for, and should get you to a point where you can afford what you want, without being too much of a PITA for you to maintain.

[Blake Noble]

A clean GMT-800 or GMT-400 with reasonable mileage is actually something I've seriously been thinking about recently, Z. I'd actually really love to have a regular cab GMT-400 GMT-800 Silverado or Sierra with either the 4.8L or 5.3L V8, 4wd, and with a step-side bed in black. If I could find that truck (preferably with no more mileage than my car) somewhere that would be willing to trade with me dead even to the Camaro, it would be a miracle.

However, buying/trading to something like that would more than likely have to come with a sacrifice. It's not cheap to buy a truck in the South, obviously.

For example, $4,000 will get you this in my neck of the woods: http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/1878977159.html

Nothing exceptional, and, not meaning to judge a book by its cover, that truck honestly doesn't seem rock solid to me.

Again, I could go the route I was considering if I wanted a late model GTO to buy a nice Silverado/Sierra, but, for me, that would be like walking around with a loaded gun to my head every day. It's not prudent and that would have to be a last resort option.

I'd have a better chance of getting a good deal on a decent Silverado at an auction, but I don't want to dump my dud of a car off on someone, therefore I really don't have any money to attempt this in the first place.

I can't stand an S-10 or a small truck other than a V-8 Dodge Dakota, so that's out.

I'm sounding very pessimistic, I know, but I guess my hard-nosed way about buying only what I like to drive at a cheap price has pushed me into a six-foot deep hole and it's finally about to bury me.

Edited August 10, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

Backing up a step here... what is actually wrong with the clutch? As Ocnblu mentions, it sounds like a linkage issue. $1500 estimate sounds pretty crazy.

Knowing these have a hydraulic clutch, a easily fixed leak would leave you with no clutch.

[Blake Noble]

I'm fairly certain it's not a linkage issue. The clutch pedal has little to no return and doesn't seem like it's engaging at all. The car is almost impossible to completely impossible to get into any forward gear. It will go in reverse, but that's preceded by the horrible sound of metal grinding against metal.

If I'm wrong it could be the synchronizer or slave cylinder, but at this point, my doubts are high. Again, I know I sound pessimistic, but I'm just looking at the reality of the situation, which isn't looking good at all. My dad's friend also seemed to back my placing the blame on the clutch, so ...

The $1,500 dollar estimate came from the sole Chevrolet dealership in the county. $800 dollars of that estimate was just for labor alone.

Edited August 10, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

I'm fairly certain it's not a linkage issue. The clutch pedal has little to no return and doesn't seem like it's engaging at all. The car is almost impossible to completely impossible to get into any forward gear. It will go in reverse, but that's preceded by the horrible sound of metal grinding against metal.

If I'm wrong it could be the synchronizer or slave cylinder, but at this point, my doubts are high. Again, I know I sound pessimistic, but I'm just looking at the reality of the situation, which isn't looking good at all. My dad's friend also seemed to back my placing the blame on the clutch, so ...

Well, I agree that the problem sounds like the clutch. Trouble is that most clutch issues don't usually come out of the blue, unless it has been abused. Same goes for the transmission, itself... so I doubt its the synchos or anything internal.

Unfortunately, I've had few stick cars... so I'm not as clutch knowledgeable as I wish I was.

I've had clutch engagement issues which sound just like your problem when the hydraulic clutch fluid was low and let in air... similar to spongy brakes, if you can't engage the clutch all the way, you're not going to have fun getting the car in gear. In my situation, I just had to top it off and bleed it. IIRC, that involved mashing the clutch pedal 20 times or so...

I've also had the bolts holding the slave cylinder come loose or fall out. With the slave cylinder dangling there, your ability to engage the clutch is severely reduced.

In either case, jacking the car up and poking around could turn out to be a cheap solution. Otherwise, even a new performance clutch plate kit and flywheel is only something like $300-$400 bucks... and could be done in an afternoon. I'm sure OEM replacement would be a lot cheaper, as it is a wear item.

I'd rather fix a clutch on a F-body than replace the transaxle that my Bonneville will eventually need.

[ocnblu]

I agree with SAmadei, Jacket. It could be something easy to fix. Don't be so easily discouraged.

[A Horse With No Name]

I', with Blue and SA. this should be an easy fix and part of owning the car...

[Blake Noble]

Well, the Camaro has just about sat in the driveway since Saturday. Now the clutch engages to where, if I put all of my 160 pounds of body weight behind it, I can shift the car into first. I'm going to attempt taking it somewhere and have the hydraulic fluid drained and replaced.

[Blake Noble]

Okay, so the Camaro decided that it wasn't much in the mood to leave the driveway.

This couldn't have happened at a better time. I have college orientation tomorrow ...

[ocnblu]

We still like you. Your orientation doesn't matter to us, Jacket.

[SAmadei]

Okay, so the Camaro decided that it wasn't much in the mood to leave the driveway.

It think its self-preservation. I wouldn't risk driving it if its so marginal... you might damage it worse and end having to tow it anyway.

The only way I'd drive it... I'd disable the neutral starting switch (If necessary) and start it in 1st gear and drive it that way. Thats how I got my Eagle home when the clutch slave cylinder came off. Road-side repair tip... when something falls off your car... you can tell what parts are yours because they are usually somewhat warm.

[Intrepidation]

I remember when the slave cylinder went on the Prizm. I could pick a gear while it was off but when the car was running it wouldn't go into another gear. Ended up driving 20 miles home in 3rd. Fun times.

[Blake Noble]

It think its self-preservation.

Funny, you're not the only person to sort of mention that Camaro has a Christine-esque personality. No, I'm not trying to be funny. Family members have noticed how things like rattling speakers stop rattling in a few days time and check engine lights seem to go off as soon as they come on (recent check engine light came on for faulty O2 sensors; stayed on for about a day, went off the next, and repeated this process two separate times). I think that car likes fucking itself up and fixing itself. Too bad it doesn't feel like completely fixing its own clutch this time.

I wouldn't risk driving it if its so marginal... you might damage it worse and end having to tow it anyway.

I'm tempted to just let it sit in solitary indefinitely until someone else decides they want to tame this problem child of mine.

I also managed to persuade the car to move again soon after I tried and gave up earlier so I ran it up and down the street. It does get easier to shift from gear to gear when you reach speeds of 25 mph and up. Shifting into 5th at 50 to 55 mph, it's hard to tell too much is wrong.

I started to pursue the beater option today too and looked at that '83 Cutlass I mentioned. A $500 Cutlass is exactly that, a $500 Cutlass. It had a pretty decent body, but I'd hate to see the nightmare under its Brougham Landau top. Like I said, it has T-Tops and I noticed rust had finally started to bubble on the header panel.

I'm going to pass on that one.

I put the Camaro on Craigslist earlier, ad fully explaining the one problem it really seems to have at the moment, as well and got a nice text message from some asshole offering me $1,200, stating that: "You're going to learn soon enough [that your car isn't worth your asking price]." I should have kept that message on my phone instead of deleting it. I didn't like the tone the guy was using.

I don't understand his reasoning at all. If my POS would go into gear easier, I'd be selling the SOB for $4,000. $1,200 would be logical if the quarter panels were full of rust and the engine sounded like a hand-cranked vibrator.

And, continuing on that subject, I've had retards offering me as low as $700 bucks for the car, so I guess that asshole is just as big as the rest of them I've dealt with. I've promptly told them what to kiss.

The problem is, I have no idea what in the hell is a decent asking price for the Camaro should I want to sell it.

I did, however, get offered a '00 CV and a V-8 S-10. Didn't dig the CV because it wasn't an ex-Buford car and I didn't dig the S-10 because it was an S-10. At least those two offers were remotely realistic.

The only way I'd drive it... I'd disable the neutral starting switch (If necessary) and start it in 1st gear and drive it that way. Thats how I got my Eagle home when the clutch slave cylinder came off. Road-side repair tip... when something falls off your car... you can tell what parts are yours because they are usually somewhat warm.

The car will start in any gear so long as you have the clutch or what's left of the clutch engaged.

Edited August 11, 2010 by whiteknight

[Blake Noble]

:/

http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/1892144307.html

If I only had a nice car to offer for trade.

[SAmadei]

I think that car likes f@#king itself up and fixing itself. Too bad it doesn't feel like completely fixing its own clutch this time.

Unfortunately, I feel part of this is what comes with a 10 year old car with so much electrical stuff that can get flakey. Corrosion, leaky caps, dirt causing voltage leakage... I'm convinced that 30 years from now, there will only be restored classics from before 1980 or 1987 at the latest... and newer will have much of the OEM stuff replaced with aftermarket replacements... restification, if you will.

I started to pursue the beater option today too and looked at that '83 Cutlass I mentioned. A $500 Cutlass is exactly that, a $500 Cutlass. It had a pretty decent body, but I'd hate to see the nightmare under its Brougham Landau top. Like I said, it has T-Tops and I noticed rust had finally started to bubble on the header panel.

I've tried the 1983ish beater, too... and its seems just about everything is a money pit unless you are willing to do the work yourself and replace a bunch of major parts to get reliability. Of course, I look at every part I replace as being one I won't have to cope with again for 100K.

I'll leave it as an exercise for someone else to post the picture of the Honda Accord... ;-)

I put the Camaro on Craigslist earlier, ad fully explaining the one problem it really seems to have at the moment, as well and got a nice text message from some asshole offering me $1,200, stating that: "You're going to learn soon enough [that your car isn't worth your asking price]." I should have kept that message on my phone instead of deleting it. I didn't like the tone the guy was using.

I don't understand his reasoning at all. If my POS would go into gear easier, I'd be selling the SOB for $4,000. $1,200 would be logical if the quarter panels were full of rust and the engine sounded like a hand-cranked vibrator.

I dunno... I forget the specs for your Camaro, but in looking for the Grand Prix for my sister, I came across a lot of very nice Camaros and Firebirds for cheap. Unfortunately, they weren't nice enough for me to recommend for my sister. I didn't see alot of the Camaros full of rust or junked engines... but higher mileage and wasted paint was generally keeping the prices down.

Right now there is a 2002 V6 Camaro for $3K with 68K on it... and a 2000 Z28 going to $4500... that sounds crazy, to me.

In any case, the problem here is that the car can't be driven... any car that has a problem keeping it from moving (beyond a dead battery), is going to be worth only 1/3 or 1/2 its normal value. And most people selling cars like that are frustrated and can be chewed down faster. So I'm not real surprised you're getting lowballers.

The car will start in any gear so long as you have the clutch or what's left of the clutch engaged.

Yeah, thats right... I forgot there is no neutral safety switch... again, I don't have enough stick shift cars at my access. ;-)

[FAPTurbo]

[Blake Noble]

lolololo it never fails.

Well, thankfully, most of my first semester classes are online, so I don't exactly have to worry about this situation for a few months. I do know this car will not be in my possession for much longer. I found a '95 T/A with 91,000 miles I'm going to look into. Just for good measure, I'll bring along someone to give me a second mechanical opinion on it.

[Intrepidation]

In all seriousness , something like an Accord might be a good idea. Obviously you're not having much luck with old G Bodies and F Bodies. You need something reliable to drive daily, you're on a budget, and you have the Cutlass for the "real car".

[Blake Noble]

I hate to go on a Sixty-Eight style rant here, but I hate the way a front-wheel drive car, such as an Accord, handles and drives. I'm used to rear-wheel drive small trucks and coupes. That's what I started out driving.

For example, I really find that my parents' Aura is pretty awkward for me to drive anymore. Don't get me wrong, it's a really nice car, and it's perfect for a family sedan. If I were a married dude, I'd probably even break down and put one in my driveway. But, for a personal car, it's not for me.

It's preference, and realistically an impracticable one, but that's just the way I've been when it comes to buying DDs. I don't intend on changing that.

Anyway, I finally got a third, real offer. Someone just offered me this: http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/1866269969.html

It wouldn't take much to visually turn it into something like this:

You can buy the nose cone and front fender extensions easier than you can the interior pieces. As a matter of fact, the junkyard down the road from me had an '86 LS that someone started an SS conversion on if they haven't crushed it yet.

But, if something else should go bust, then I would have the same headaches I had with the '84 SS I had.

Highly tempting. I will most definitely sleep on it, though.

[FAPTurbo]

I hate to go on a Sixty-Eight style rant here, but I hate the way a front-wheel drive car, such as an Accord, handles and drives.

Yeah, but at least it'll drive.

[Blake Noble]

Yeah, but at least it'll drive.

"I walked right into that one."

[Blake Noble]

Offered another Monte, this time an '86 SS. I'm waiting to have some photos e-mailed to me.

[A Horse With No Name]

I hate to go on a Sixty-Eight style rant here, but I hate the way a front-wheel drive car, such as an Accord, handles and drives. I'm used to rear-wheel drive small trucks and coupes. That's what I started out driving.

For example, I really find that my parents' Aura is pretty awkward for me to drive anymore. Don't get me wrong, it's a really nice car, and it's perfect for a family sedan. If I were a married dude, I'd probably even break down and put one in my driveway. But, for a personal car, it's not for me.

It's preference, and realistically an impracticable one, but that's just the way I've been when it comes to buying DDs. I don't intend on changing that.

Anyway, I finally got a third, real offer. Someone just offered me this: http://lexington.cra...1866269969.html

It wouldn't take much to visually turn it into something like this:

You can buy the nose cone and front fender extensions easier than you can the interior pieces. As a matter of fact, the junkyard down the road from me had an '86 LS that someone started an SS conversion on if they haven't crushed it yet.

But, if something else should go bust, then I would have the same headaches I had with the '84 SS I had.

Highly tempting. I will most definitely sleep on it, though.

Um...GTI, Prelude...Cooper S...Cobalt SS...Focus SVT...Acura Integra GSR or Type R...RSX..Neon SRT-4...Neon ACR...Older Civic SI...Lots of good driving, good handling FWD cars.

Just sayin...because I graduated from high school...