The Teardown Artists

[BigPontiac]

The Teardown Artists

First, buy the hottest new car on the lot. Then rip it to pieces. Inside GM's chop shop, they take (apart) the competition very seriously.

By Carl Hoffman

A silver Lexus RX 400h hybrid SUV is suspended on a lift in a room the size of a soccer field at the General Motors Technical Center in Warren, Michigan. It was purchased off the lot just a few days ago for $49,000, loaded, which seems a waste, since it's already a carcass. Mechanic John Klucka has removed its tires and engine and doors and seats and dashboard and, well, just about everything but a few wires and the windshield. "This is a complicated vehicle," he says, unbolting the engine from its frame, "and I've got no manual, so I'm taking it apart blind."

Within a few weeks, GM engineers will unravel the Lexus' every secret - down to the weight and production cost of each nut and bolt - just as they've done with every other Toyota hybrid model. The latest Prius lies in on a table in the corner, gutted, tagged, and spread out like a frog in a high school biology lab.

Article continued

Full URL: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html

[bowtie_dude]

Awesome! Didn't Toyota do the same with the first Taurus?

[Guest Josh]

That is an awesome article. Sorry, but I'm a dork when it comes to things like this.

GM also does off-site teardowns of their pre-production vehicles and some vehicles first produced off the assembly line to make sure everything is as fit, snug, and in the right place.

[Newbiewar]

cool article...

GM ought to tear down their own cars from time to time, to see if they could improve upon them when its already finished...

[Flybrian]

This is a fantastic article I read in the library a week or so ago. The part about Toyota's intentions with the Prius is interesting, too.

[evok]

http://www.decaturdailydemocrat.com/articl...editorial03.txt

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_astec_leads_delphi

Tear down used to be called the Mona Lisa. It was started in the 1980s by Alex Meir(sp).

Edited February 4, 2006 by evok

[Petra]

Neat stuff, but it leads me to question: Is GM learning from these chops how to build cars as good as the competiton, or are they learning to build cars better than the competiton?

[ocnblu]

Excellent article.

[Newbiewar]

Neat stuff, but it leads me to question: Is GM learning from these chops how to build cars as good as the competiton, or are they learning to build cars better than the competiton?

this is a good question...

JD power an associats seems to think they are starting to make em better...

but thats only the premium brands... we need cadillac's quality in Chevrolet and we'll be in great shape...

[milleramerican]

I love how the critics say GM should try to go with hybrids, instead of pursue fuel cells. DONT WANT GM TO GET TOO ADVANCED AND BE BETTER THAN TOYOTA!!!

[pow]

Good... shows that GM is taking the competition seriously.

[BuickEight]

I think GM should buy some of their own products that are 5-10 years old, and then do a teardown.

[razoredge]

The earliest teardowns I know of were a Jaguar and Mercedes SL during the developement of various early Corvettes.

[BigPontiac]

I think GM should buy some of their own products that are 5-10 years old, and then do a teardown.

There was a piece on GM's Fastlane blog last year about them tearing down a couple year old Silverado with 460,000mi on it...so, they may to a limited extent.

Fastlane article

Full URL: http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/...w_miles_on.html

[zbad1]

I love how the critics say GM should try to go with hybrids, instead of pursue fuel cells. DONT WANT GM TO GET TOO ADVANCED AND BE BETTER THAN TOYOTA!!!

I agree. These hybrids seem like a pretty pathetic bandaids for the real problem. Fuel cell technology should really change the world. I hope GM gets the big score with this technology.

Edited February 5, 2006 by zbad1

[Guest Josh]

Yea that's it. Not that there is little to no infrastructure to support fuel cell cars. 

Definitely a cool article. I met a guy at NAIAS who does tear downs for one of the big 3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just like nobody knew of hybrids some 4 years ago, just look at them now. You don't need infastructure if you know what you're doing, and by the time you need it for repairs you can put a battery pack twice as long in the vehicles.

[Robert Hall]

Awesome!  Didn't Toyota do the same with the first Taurus?

Could be..the mid '90s ('92-96?) 4dr Camry looked quite a bit like the original Taurus, IMHO..

[Robert Hall]

I agree. These hybrids seem like a pretty pathetic bandaids for the real problem. Fuel cell technology should really change the world. I hope GM gets the big score with this technology.

Riiight...fuel cells are still a pipe dream...at least 25 years or more away from being practical, both as far as the cars and the infrastructure.

[razoredge]

If you want to sell hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, you need to have hydrogen filling stations. That's the infastructure that HAS to be in place. So far there are a few dozen hydrogen fueling stations in the WHOLE nation. Half of them in California.

If you want fuel cell cars (from ANY auto maker) to sell on the level that hybrids are now, you're going to need a ton more hydrogen fueling stations. Home fueling stations would be a good start, but that would cost more for the consumer....and, of course, people travel. Filling stations at dealers might work too, Im not sure how hard it would be to convince the dealers to spend the money on it. Youd still have the travel problem though. You're going to need to be able to drive down I-75 and see "Hydrogen fueling station," every so often on those exit signs.

Until they bust a move and begin to get this infrastructure in place its a stalemate. I dont think every corner had a seven11 before they decided to release the gasoline automobile.

In the mean time to me it seems foolish to spend fortunes on "hybrid" R&D. A gasoline engine to generate electricity to power an electric motor, that uses more fuel per mile than a VW diesel did 25 years ago. That is not progress.

This word "hybrid" is appearing to be little more than a publicity stunt.

[zbad1]

Riiight...fuel cells are still a pipe dream...at least 25 years or more away from being practical, both as far as the cars and the infrastructure.

The interenet was a 'pipe dream' 25 years ago. That doesn't change the fact that the net and fuel cell technology has/will change the world.

[Robert Hall]

The interenet was a 'pipe dream' 25 years ago. That doesn't change the fact that the net and fuel cell technology has/will change the world.

Actually, the internet was around 25 years ago..actually, 35 years ago. It was only used by government agencies, defence contractors, and universities. No WWW then...just ftp, telnet, etc.

[BuickEight]

Screw the hybrid and fuel cell. Why not just make a car that runs on dog poop and banana peels? Where's the Doc?

[Robert Hall]

The hybrid seems like a reasonable approach for now as it can be built with existing technology and doesn't require changes in usage patterns or infrastructure. There is a gas mileage increase, but more importantly (the point which everyone seems to miss) is that they are cleaner..

[Jamie]

I just read the article in Wired, and found it to be fascinating.

Screw the hybrid and fuel cell.  Why not just make a car that runs on dog poop and banana peels?  Where's the Doc?

OK, after you get the DeLorean, you'll need to find a Krups 'Coffina' Model 223 Coffee Grinder ...

[Angry Dad]

The hybrid seems like a reasonable approach for now as it can be built with existing technology and doesn't require changes in usage patterns or infrastructure. There is a gas mileage increase, but more importantly (the point which everyone seems to miss) is that they are cleaner..

There are trade offs. Starting and stopping any internal combustion engine requires lighting the converter. Or retaining a lot of heat in the converter. Sure there are no emissions while the engine is off but the start of the cycle in any converter equipped engine is where the "dirty" emissions lay.

There is a future for this style of drive system. It requires a lot of changes to te entire vehicle. But if the goal is to reduce oil consumption, it is by no means the best way to do so quickly. E85 vehicles are in production, on the roads in very large numbers and it has been done at a reasonable cost. I've heard that going E85 costs less than $200 to build. On the other hand, going hybrid is very expensive. I cannot see how Toyota builds a Prius system for less than $3000. It is probally a great deal more and service costs are still excessive with built in obsolesence. I totally agree with Carlos Goshen when he says that the hype behind hybrid is doing more damage than good. And I fully understand why Nissan makes no effort to build any of these vehicles. He's simply expoiting the advantage of being the smaller corporation. He knows he had none of the market for hybrid and he isn't losing anything. Let the big companies play the PR game and engineer the first batch of failures. Then learn from their mistakes.

But back to saving an economy from manipulation from foriegn producers of oil. I do not understand why a concerted intelligent effort has not been implemented to "get on the schine" about building ethanol production facilities. It must go back to who we vote for. They don't really care about what's good for us, they just care about what keeps them elected.

[zbad1]

Actually, the internet was around 25 years ago..actually, 35 years ago.  It was only used by government agencies, defence contractors, and universities. No WWW then...just ftp, telnet, etc. 

Exactly, just as fuel cell vehicles exist today, just in very limited use.

[regfootball]

The interenet was a 'pipe dream' 25 years ago. That doesn't change the fact that the net and fuel cell technology has/will change the world.

I am sure Al Gore will invent a way to make that work also.

[regfootball]

Screw the hybrid and fuel cell.  Why not just make a car that runs on dog poop and banana peels?  Where's the Doc?

I hope GM can perfect the flux capacitor.

[Robert Hall]

I am sure Al Gore will invent a way to make that work also.

As well as the Internet and pants, Al Gore invented the fuel cell.

[regfootball]

one comment, its too bad GM has to tear down other's cars to learn stuff. The other manuf's should be tearing down GM's cars to see what makes them so great. I would love to have a job tearing down cars and analyzing what makes them good and bad etc. That would be a hoot.

Edited February 5, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

"The Lexus hybrid is performance without guilt. It's a premium product. Nine-tenths of the people who buy it will never do the math; it's one big high tech image statement."

he's right, 9/10 WILL NEVER do the math. They have enough money to blow without needing to ever worry about counting it.

[Robert Hall]

"The Lexus hybrid is performance without guilt. It's a premium product. Nine-tenths of the people who buy it will never do the math; it's one big high tech image statement."

he's right, 9/10 WILL NEVER do the math.  They have enough money to blow without needing to ever worry about counting it.

Like a majority of car buyers & leasees- they probably never consider the TCO but are only looking at monthly payments...

Edited February 5, 2006 by moltar

[balthazar]

Mercedes used to tear down Pontiacs, I don't see why lexus wouldn't be tearing down Chevrolets.

[Robert Hall]

Mercedes used to tear down Pontiacs, I don't see why lexus wouldn't be tearing down Chevrolets.

So they can figure out how to build better 4-spd automatics and pushrod V6s?

[Flybrian]

So they can figure out how to build better 4-spd automatics and pushrod V6s? 

I think what they learned from Pontiac in the mid 1980s shows in the quality and reliability of today's new Mercedes

[Robert Hall]

I think what they learned from Pontiac in the mid 1980s shows in the quality and reliability of today's new Mercedes

Mercedes needs to take apart '80s Mercedes to learn about quality and reliablity again.

[balthazar]

So they can figure out how to build better 4-spd automatics and pushrod V6s?

No- this was in the '60s- to figure out how to make real power, undoubtedly.

And yes- I'm sure mercedes has learned much about building automatics from GM- many have tried to better them in the past and failed.

[Robert Hall]

So they can figure out how to build better 4-spd automatics and pushrod V6s?

No- this was in the '60s- to figure out how to make real power, undoubtedly.

And yes- I'm sure mercedes has learned much about building automatics from GM- many have tried to better them in the past and failed.

I was referring to Lexus..2006.

[Newbiewar]

Exactly, just as fuel cell vehicles exist today, just in very limited use.

we've got a chevron hydrogen around here right next to Hyundai head quarters...

[ToniCipriani]

I wonder if they did teardowns for an TSX and a Mazda 6 when they designed the G6.

And at some point, I heard they did a Jetta and a Civic when making the Cobalt.

[Sixty8panther]

Awesome!  Didn't Toyota do the same with the first Taurus?

Umm... I think they did it for several decades before the Taurus existed.

[Snate]

This is an old practice that is done in most business. "Reverse engineering" is what its called if I remember correctly.

Hybrids are still a stopgap...not the long term solution. If the long term solution is fuel cells or something else I do not know.

I still think people who buy hybrids thinking they are going to save money on fuel are idiots.

[Newbiewar]

This is an old practice that is done in most business.  "Reverse engineering" is what its called if I remember correctly.

Hybrids are still a stopgap...not the long term solution.  If the long term solution is fuel cells or something else I do not know. 

I still think people who buy hybrids thinking they are going to save money on fuel are idiots.

no matter the product, hybrid technology should be applied...

what is the point of letting energy leave the vehicle without trying to retain some of it?

example... while the engine is idling its not doing anything but wasting fuel, while the car is stopping all that inertia should be converted into energy, yet for 100 years it was just allowed to dissapate into heat.

cars could be a lot more efficent and ecconomical, just strides like hybrid technology need to be taken... not saying the prius is a good design... but the idea is good...

even if GM went to E85, hybrid technology could still be used in that as well..

Hybrid technology shouldnt be going anywhere...

even with the fuel cell... hybrid technology should still exist...

[Snate]

no matter the product, hybrid technology should be applied...

what is the point of letting energy leave the vehicle without trying to retain some of it?

example... while the engine is idling its not doing anything but wasting fuel, while the car is stopping all that inertia should be converted into energy, yet for 100 years it was just allowed to dissapate into heat.

cars could be a lot more efficent and ecconomical, just strides like hybrid technology need to be taken... not saying the prius is a good design... but the idea is good...

even if GM went to E85, hybrid technology could still be used in that as well..

Hybrid technology shouldnt be going anywhere...

even with the fuel cell... hybrid technology should still exist...

Whats the added cost of the extra materials in a hybrid powertrain?

Whats the environmental impact of the electric components? Can the battery be recycled...and if so what is the monetary and energy costs to accomplish this?

For a consumer, there is no added benefit to a hybrid car. Maybe the "feel good" feeling of the slightly reduced emissions. From a money standpoint..you fully pay for the miniscule gas savings and then a significant amount more up front.

The small amount of energy you might save from less gas is probably zeroed out by the increase in energy to create and maintain the hybrid system.

[regfootball]

a huge part of the reason toyota is gaining sales so much is the direct and indirect result of their hybrid offerings and the image it represents.

so obviously they have struck a chord with consumers. and each and every day GM is caught with its pants down on that puts them deeper in the hole.

[prinzSD]

That is an awesome article. Sorry, but I'm a dork when it comes to things like this.

GM also does off-site teardowns of their pre-production vehicles and some vehicles first produced off the assembly line to make sure everything is as fit, snug, and in the right place.

boy do I agree. I bought my 93 TA back in 1993 after reading the special issue Road and Track put out ( I have 5 or 6 copies) entirely devoted to the fourth gen Firebird and Camaro highlighting development, design, various proposed design themes, testing, etc. In it, one chapter mentioned some of the pilot cars running to 200,000 miles after which they were tore down and inspected. It mentioned how well the parts held up. Well, after reading that, I thought that the fourth gens were way better then my third gen so I bought one. Currently my 93 has about 164,000 miles and while it has held up well, the article WAS a little misleading. Still I love my 'birds and won't give them up when I get my Vette this summer.

edit:spelling

Edited February 7, 2006 by prinzSD

[Snate]

a huge part of the reason toyota is gaining sales so much is the direct and indirect result of their hybrid offerings and the image it represents.

so obviously they have struck a chord with consumers.  and each and every day GM is caught with its pants down on that puts them deeper in the hole.

Definitely...Toyota certainly knows how to get positive PR. Luckily for them, most of the consumers either don't care or are too ignorant to realize that hybrids are incredibly overhyped and that Toyota is no less "green" that any other manufacturer.

[pow]

Definitely...Toyota certainly knows how to get positive PR.  Luckily for them, most of the consumers either don't care or are too ignorant to realize that hybrids are incredibly overhyped and that Toyota is no less "green" that any other manufacturer.

Hydrogen is also incredibly overhyped when you consider that hydrolysis of hydrogen creates more CO2 than running an equivalent gas-powered vehicle.

[Flybrian]

Hydrogen is also incredibly overhyped when you consider that hydrolysis of hydrogen creates more CO2 than running an equivalent gas-powered vehicle.

There are other ways to get hydrogen that are being explored.

[Newbiewar]

Whats the added cost of the extra materials in a hybrid powertrain? 

Whats the environmental impact of the electric components?  Can the battery be recycled...and if so what is the monetary and energy costs to accomplish this? 

For a consumer, there is no added benefit to a hybrid car.  Maybe the "feel good" feeling of the slightly reduced emissions.  From a money standpoint..you fully pay for the miniscule gas savings and then a significant amount more up front.

The small amount of energy you might save from less gas is probably zeroed out by the increase in energy to create and maintain the hybrid system.

probably the same was the first said about the fuel injection system.... hybrids dont need to work off of batterys... i didnt say Toyota had the best idea... GM's hybrids have less dependancy on the inefficenent battery