“I would never say we would never talk about Pontiac again,” - Mark Reuss

[daves87rs]

Long term goal? Think again! Watch and see what happens when the loans are paid off! Things will happen so fast it will make your head spin ...

That I assumed. BUT, they gotta work the image first. It's still battered here in the Motor City....

Prove to me why I need that Aveo or Cruze....

[daves87rs]

And I still fail to see the business side of this. You gotta have more than 10 buyers for a car......

[regfootball]

i am guessing the public has moved on from pontiac, olds, and saturn etc.

we probably should just let things go with buick chevy and cadillac for awhile.....

[hyperv6]

And I still fail to see the business side of this. You gotta have more than 10 buyers for a car......

The business side is it would give Buick some higer end performance cars. There will not be many Pontiac's and they would be shared with other divisions as a true golbal product.

Since GMC and Olds would have a hard time sharing globally they would not be considered.

I think Hummer died because of image here and so few sold overseas.

Any car GM sells has to be strong in more than one market going forward. Only a few will be limited to one market. In the states the Trucks and SUV's sell well enought to make it in one market.

In th end the Pontiacs would be Buicks AMG.

[daves87rs]

The business side is it would give Buick some higer end performance cars. There will not be many Pontiac's and they would be shared with other divisions as a true golbal product.

Since GMC and Olds would have a hard time sharing globally they would not be considered.

I think Hummer died because of image here and so few sold overseas.

Any car GM sells has to be strong in more than one market going forward. Only a few will be limited to one market. In the states the Trucks and SUV's sell well enought to make it in one market.

In th end the Pontiacs would be Buicks AMG.

While I agree, does buick really need performance cars? Granted, they could do GN type cars....but in that case, it better be all balls out.

Another question is how does one bring back Pontiac? Vintage? Muscle? Trendy? Race types?

[Drew Dowdell]

The only way I could see Olds coming back is through the green movement. Olds was always GM's 'techie' brand, right? So why not design a completely environmentally friendly car from the ground up (recycled materials, Voltec, butterfly farts for exhaust, the whole mess) and market it to a very specific crowd as "the automobile of the future" My thinking behind this even involves completely factory controlled stores (THINK: Apple stores, for example) in major urban markets (Maybe one city per state) "America's first automobile brand in the 20th century is now it's first automobile brand for the 21st century" (Cheezy, I know, but you get the picture)

Most advertising is cheezy.... .but that line is GREAT

[hyperv6]

While I agree, does buick really need performance cars? Granted, they could do GN type cars....but in that case, it better be all balls out.

Another question is how does one bring back Pontiac? Vintage? Muscle? Trendy? Race types?

I would like to see Buick focus on the more Luxury side. Now I don't mean floating boats of the past but the kind of cars Lexus and other have made a killing on.

Then use the Pontiac name on a new GXP RWD and a AWD Torana. Then once Alpha arrives do a Pontiac version of the Holden that is based on it. The key is to keep Holden, Vauxhall and Pontiac tied together as a global unit.

People will also have to accpet the fact the Pontiac will cost more and be in fewer numbers than in the past. There will only be performance cars. Pontiac in no way should try to make a car for everyone.

The key will be to make Pontiac people will be willing to pay more than $30,000 for. To this point there has only been one worthy of this price and it was the G8 GXP.

[daves87rs]

I would like to see Buick focus on the more Luxury side. Now I don't mean floating boats of the past but the kind of cars Lexus and other have made a killing on.

Then use the Pontiac name on a new GXP RWD and a AWD Torana. Then once Alpha arrives do a Pontiac version of the Holden that is based on it. The key is to keep Holden, Vauxhall and Pontiac tied together as a global unit.

People will also have to accpet the fact the Pontiac will cost more and be in fewer numbers than in the past. There will only be performance cars. Pontiac in no way should try to make a car for everyone.

The key will be to make Pontiac people will be willing to pay more than $30,000 for. To this point there has only been one worthy of this price and it was the G8 GXP.

Agreed.

[regfootball]

I've been thinking about this. I think Pontiac is in hiding.

They pulled Pontiac because the task force told them they needed to. But also, it gives Pontiac time away from the market to get all the inexpensive G3 / G5 / G6 / Chevy and Saturn clones out of people's minds. Pontiac if it exists in the future will need to have high transaction prices.

We all know that Zeta down under is likely to undergo revisions, lose weight, more refinement. I personally think all wheel drive needs to be added. I think it may be a 2012 or 2013 when the Commodore sees a revision if it doesn't go Epsilon (and I don't think the Aussies will allow it to).

We also know the ATS in under development. We also know the Torana or a concept of it is too good to die on the vine.

I think at some point when the GM financial picture clears up and the IPO happens and the government gets out of it.....I think we may just very well see Pontiac resume as a niche brand here in the US, as a complement to GMC and Buick again. I don't think we'll ever see Pontiac try to dupe on Chevy's turf again (sorry, no Trans Am) and I think maybe this is why the Impala is not being changed to a rebadged G8.

I think we'll see Pontiac return from hiding at some point but I do think the offering will be simple. Most likely just the new G8 / Commodore, and a version of the ATS.....in sedan and hopefully coupe.

I wouldn't see Pontiac ever expanding from that again, nor should they. Two RWD / AWD platforms and new revised G8 and whatever vehicles they spin off the ATS platform. I really don't think GM can justify a whole platform for the ATS alone, and I have my doubts that the next Camaro will happen sooner rather than later. I see the Camaro getting a complete new interior by about 2012 or 2013, so therefore I see GM prolonging the life of their best styling job. Its so iconic, I don't see them moving off it for a long time, so I don't see a new Camaro on the ATS platform till maybe 2015 myself. GM will want to amortize the current Camaro as much as possible and fix the interior in the meantime. The next Camaro may ride the ATS platform, but by then they will be able to charge a lot of the development money off Cadillac, and to wait means having access to the ATS platform when it is cheaper later on down the line.

The question I have for fans is, would that satisfy a return of the marque with only 2 platforms and what is basically the G8 and then to add another range of models? I actually would prefer to see the G8 wagon return in this scenario and I also would like to see a return of the G8 GXP.

I don't foresee Pontiac returning to 'G' monikers. I think we'll get names back, if they do bring it back...i.e. Grand Prix, etc.

Edited March 23, 2010 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

Reg, what you have posted is what we all have been thinking for the most part.

To answer your question, I'd say that the two platform idea would be plenty if enough variants can spring from them. I wouldn't rule out using another platform if it fits the bill, however.

I guess we'll see.

[regfootball]

another i would add is an ATS based Solstice.. 2 seater only. Buick needs a Riviera, but that should be four place.

Cadillac IMO should also get a new vette based XLR as well. And do a better job with it this time.

[Camino LS6]

another i would add is an ATS based Solstice.. 2 seater only. Buick needs a Riviera, but that should be four place.

Cadillac IMO should also get a new vette based XLR as well. And do a better job with it this time.

Agreed on all counts, the Solstice was the first thing that came to mind for me as well.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

i am guessing the public has moved on from pontiac, olds, and saturn etc.

we probably should just let things go with buick chevy and cadillac for awhile.....

Do you have Facebook? Get on the Saturn page and look at the $h! stirred by the latest post asking buyers to consider the four remaining brands. These people RESENT General Motors for closing Saturn. And Saturn was only around for 1/3 of the time the other two divisions were here. Imagine the lost sales GM will experience long term simply because they couldn't get their act together and properly sell their entire portfolio.

While I agree, does buick really need performance cars? Granted, they could do GN type cars....but in that case, it better be all balls out.

Another question is how does one bring back Pontiac? Vintage? Muscle? Trendy? Race types?

You bring Pontiac back much like BMW brought Mini back. Use past glory (from WAY back) to spark interest in the brand from a completely different generation of buyers. Pontiac, more than anything needs to drop the "PC" crap and OWN it's identity (I've said this for years now) Some people won't like it, but enough of them will to make GM some fast $$$. Especially if there is very little investment.

Most advertising is cheezy.... .but that line is GREAT

I would like to see Buick focus on the more Luxury side. Now I don't mean floating boats of the past but the kind of cars Lexus and other have made a killing on.

Then use the Pontiac name on a new GXP RWD and a AWD Torana. Then once Alpha arrives do a Pontiac version of the Holden that is based on it. The key is to keep Holden, Vauxhall and Pontiac tied together as a global unit.

The only problem with that is the fact that Holden is essentially Chevrolet now and I'm willing to bet that Chevrolet will be getting civilian versions of the Holden program very soon. The only thing I can think is; 1) Either tell Chevrolet to eff off and focus on a large AWD Taurus competitor or 2) Make Pontiac a part of HSV.

People will also have to accpet the fact the Pontiac will cost more and be in fewer numbers than in the past. There will only be performance cars. Pontiac in no way should try to make a car for everyone.

Absolutely.. As I said earlier, OWN the identity. New Pontiac is all about no compromise and performance. No sorority chicks, no fleet models and no Chevy clones. Pontiac never should've been a "volume" brand in the same way that Chevy is. The DNA (true DNA) of this division dictates that by its very nature.

The key will be to make Pontiac people will be willing to pay more than $30,000 for. To this point there has only been one worthy of this price and it was the G8 GXP.

I agree... And it WAS successful. Especially given the market and limited time it was sold.

I've been thinking about this. I think Pontiac is in hiding.

They pulled Pontiac because the task force told them they needed to. But also, it gives Pontiac time away from the market to get all the inexpensive G3 / G5 / G6 / Chevy and Saturn clones out of people's minds. Pontiac if it exists in the future will need to have high transaction prices.

We all know that Zeta down under is likely to undergo revisions, lose weight, more refinement. I personally think all wheel drive needs to be added. I think it may be a 2012 or 2013 when the Commodore sees a revision if it doesn't go Epsilon (and I don't think the Aussies will allow it to).

I highly doubt we'll ever see an Epsilon Commodore.

I think we'll see Pontiac return from hiding at some point but I do think the offering will be simple. Most likely just the new G8 / Commodore, and a version of the ATS.....in sedan and hopefully coupe.

I'm not sure Cadillac is going to let Pontiac anywhere near Alpha (because they know Pontiac would probably tear them a new ass in sales *IF* the opportunity existed)

I wouldn't see Pontiac ever expanding from that again, nor should they. Two RWD / AWD platforms and new revised G8 and whatever vehicles they spin off the ATS platform. I really don't think GM can justify a whole platform for the ATS alone, and I have my doubts that the next Camaro will happen sooner rather than later. I see the Camaro getting a complete new interior by about 2012 or 2013, so therefore I see GM prolonging the life of their best styling job. Its so iconic, I don't see them moving off it for a long time, so I don't see a new Camaro on the ATS platform till maybe 2015 myself. GM will want to amortize the current Camaro as much as possible and fix the interior in the meantime. The next Camaro may ride the ATS platform, but by then they will be able to charge a lot of the development money off Cadillac, and to wait means having access to the ATS platform when it is cheaper later on down the line.

Camaro won't see Alpha until the ATS line is fully rolled out, that's for sure. Everyone thinking Camaro will automatically go to Alpha after a "short run" of Zeta is in for a big surprise IMO. My only thoughts on this are 'what about Buick and Alpha? The Riviera was rumored to have Alpha prospects. HOWEVER, when GM did the tweetfest a while back, Riviera was supposedly spied or talked about on EPSILON. Could that be a result of Alpha finally going to Pontiac? I'm not sure as all of this is simply my speculation. But anything can happen.

The question I have for fans is, would that satisfy a return of the marque with only 2 platforms and what is basically the G8 and then to add another range of models? I actually would prefer to see the G8 wagon return in this scenario and I also would like to see a return of the G8 GXP.

I don't foresee Pontiac returning to 'G' monikers. I think we'll get names back, if they do bring it back...i.e. Grand Prix, etc.

I think so... But, is the market big enough for a CTS wagon, CTS V-Series wagon and a G8 wagon?

Edited March 24, 2010 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

I think so... But, is the market big enough for a CTS wagon, CTS V-Series wagon and a G8 wagon?

Very hard to be sure, but I think so. The two would be quite different, as would the price.

[Blake Noble]

I'm not hear to argue with you, think what you want! But ask yourself this first, how often have I been wrong when it comes to GM? Not much, my record speaks for itself. Oh BTW, since you don't believe what I say, why do you PM me? Don't bother sending any more gm4life, you won't get a response! Have a nice day!

Now that's the PCS I know. Good to see you haven't lost spunk.

[regfootball]

i am not sure the CTS wagon will last long. Of course, if the CTS wagon doesn't then I don't think we'd see a G8 one. We still might see the Regal wagon too.....

The ATS based Pontiac would need to sell at a price within reach of a young demographic, but not be available to everyone like a chevy would be.

As far as a Buick coupe, I'd really prefer it be on Epsilon so as not to be confused with any future Pontiac product.

The LaCrosse is a pretty good car, I've driven it, I would even buy one if the price were right. I really like the LaCrosse. In fact, the LaCrosse I drove was a more refined car than the G8 v6 I drove a couple years ago. Hopefully Holden fixed the junkiness on that car's powertrain and NVH. My point is that Buick is well served with the refinements to the Epsilon platform. Buick might benefit from a park avenue on zeta, but it really wouldn't sell that much. It just depends if they want a halo car or not.

Saturn fans shouldn't get their shorts in a bind. Their time is done. Now that Chevy doesn't have to compete for resources for cars in volume segments with Saturn and Pontiac, GM fans should be optimistic that Chevy's product will be much improved and fresher and more competitive across the board. For that reason, I am fine with mst of Pontiac being laid to pasture, but bringing back an ATS pontiac and a Zeta pontiac I think would be fine. Saturns customer service savvy needs to be applied to Chevy. We want Chevy to get the best resources. Chevy is the one that can sell the Camaros, and we want them to still be around.

A Hummer H3T passed me yesterday. Now that is a cool truck! I am actually mad that has to go away.. SUPER COOL!

To be honest, anyone who hopes for a Pontiac return, the only chance is if Holden still keeps producing its own design and large RWD chassis. If there were no future Zeta replacement platform, then Caddy will just make one version of its ATS rather basic to keep the price down and accessible to those who would otherwise be interested in a Pontiac ATS. If if the Commodore still goes its own way, then i think the chances of a Pontiac revival with at least two cars instead of just one might have legs.

Edited March 24, 2010 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

I think the HSV cars are what Pontiac will be. Chevys market with Holden will be service cars and a limited SS at best and nothing more.

The wagon is not going to happen unless the CTS wagon does better. GM is not going to waste time on a car that does not sell. Besides the wagon does not scream performance.

As in a sports car? until the sales return to be more strong in the auto market. I don't see a Solstice being brought back. Even in world numbers the Kappa was weak when sales were strong.

I think a sport coupe is more of what we will see. Something more people could live with daily. A sports car could happen later.

[CanadianBacon94]

Pontiac should be IN YOUR FACE, and like as posted above own there identity remeber the glory days of the 60's that is what i consider Pontiac.

An alpha Pontiac shouldn't step on the ATS's toes because the Pontiac should have love it or hate it styling, brash like the Camaro. The Cadillac bold but acceptable like CTS.

The Cadillac should have fancy touch screens, the Pontiac should have an AM/FM/XM radio controlled by knobs volume, tune, push tune for bass and whatever else adjustments, and it should get a new interior, the Cadillac interior will have amazing attention to detail with leathers and all that, the Pontiac will take the driver centered Pontiac interior to level two simplistic but not cheap, the dash MUST feel and sound solid, looks are not as important as function with everything centered around the driver. advertisements should very hugely different the Cadillac should show painstaking attention to detail even in the creation of the commercial(with violin music of course) while the Pontiac should show those muscular 60s Pontiacs music should be AC/DC back in black(first year the two are only available from the factory in black) and it should show the best of the past and the best of the future the Grand Am and GTO Judge. Pontiac: small blocks only Cadillac: DOHC v-6 from 300 2.8 T -480 HP 4L TT

[SingleStylish]

In light of what Pontiac was for the last 30 years, I would deplore GM for bringing it back. The Sunbird says it all.

[Camino LS6]

In light of what Pontiac was for the last 30 years, I would deplore GM for bringing it back. The Sunbird says it all.

The Sunbird says nothing at all, if you know Pontiac you know better.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Sunbird says nothing at all, if you know Pontiac you know better.

Parisianne, 6000, Safari, Transport, Aztek, Quad-4 GrandAms, Rental G6es, Rental Grand Prix, Sunbirds........this is what the general public know about Pontiac.

Most don't know about the Solstice or the G8, or that even the Grand Am could have been had with a 5.3 V8.

[gm4life]

Parisianne, 6000, Safari, Transport, Aztek, Quad-4 GrandAms, Rental G6es, Rental Grand Prix, Sunbirds........this is what the general public know about Pontiac.

Most don't know about the Solstice or the G8, or that even the Grand Am could have been had with a 5.3 V8.

Olds, just for the record it was a Grand Prix GXP with the 5.3L LS4 V8. The Bonneville GXP also wasn't a bad car either, the one I drove was a joy to drive with the rev happy 4.6L Northstar and the digger 3.71:1 axle ratio it really moved. Plus it had a great sound to it. Also your right most people had never heard of the GTO, G8 or Solstice even. I would love to see a few "great ones" come back.

Edited March 26, 2010 by gm4life

[z28luvr01]

I think you meant Grand Prix, although a lightweight N body with a 5.3 could be pretty interesting.

What did people think of Hyundai/Kia not even 5 years ago? If a brand whose entire existence up until then has been to make cheap throwaway cars can have its image overturned, surely a brand with a long storied history can do the same.

GM has everything it needs to create a solid Pontiac lineup on the cheap. All it really needs is the desire.

[Drew Dowdell]

Olds, just for the record it was a Grand Prix GXP with the 5.3L LS4 V8. The Bonneville GXP also wasn't a bad car either, the one I drove was a joy to drive with the rev happy 4.6L Northstar and the digger 3.71:1 axle ratio it really moved. Plus it had a great sound to it. Also your right most people had never heard of the GTO, G8 or Solstice even. I would love to see a few "great ones" come back.

yeah, typo.

[Robert Hall]

Olds, just for the record it was a Grand Prix GXP with the 5.3L LS4 V8. The Bonneville GXP also wasn't a bad car either, the one I drove was a joy to drive with the rev happy 4.6L Northstar and the digger 3.71:1 axle ratio it really moved. Plus it had a great sound to it. Also your right most people had never heard of the GTO, G8 or Solstice even. I would love to see a few "great ones" come back.

The Bonneville GXP had a Northstar? Wow...I don't remember that...I remember the supercharged V6 Bonnevilles..

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

The Bonneville GXP had a Northstar? Wow...I don't remember that...I remember the supercharged V6 Bonnevilles..

[gm4life]

The Bonneville GXP had a Northstar? Wow...I don't remember that...I remember the supercharged V6 Bonnevilles..

Yes they did and they were certainly "ringers" 0-60 time were often in the mid 6's and a few mods would get them close to 6 flat. They were very entertaining to drive considering they were a large FWD V8 powered American boat. I so badly wanted one but settled on an SLE. When the GXP came out I knew I had to get one, I loved the new "clean" styling and also I had my son encouraging me to take the plunge and I now with 29,000 miles on mine I am certainly glad I did.

Edited March 26, 2010 by gm4life

[Robert Hall]

I vaguely remember the Bonneville GXP now...haven't seen one in years. Those last generation Bonnevilles were really sharp..haven't seen one in ages.

[gm4life]

I vaguely remember the Bonneville GXP now...haven't seen one in years. Those last generation Bonnevilles were really sharp..haven't seen one in ages.

They are sharp, maybe thats why I drive one! And to refresh your memory...

[Robert Hall]

They are sharp, maybe thats why I drive one! And to refresh your memory...

I never cared for GM's small and midsize FWD models of the last 20+ years, but really liked many of their full size ones like the Bonnevilles, Auroras (both generations), Riviera, Eldorado, Park Avenues, etc..

[gm4life]

I never cared for GM's small and midsize FWD models of the last 20+ years, but really liked many of their full size ones like the Bonnevilles, Auroras (both generations), Riviera, Eldorado, Park Avenues, etc..

I understand you can drive lots of those G-platform cars right into the ground. They tend to run forever even you beat the piss out of them.

[Lamar]

gm4life, you make me want to go get mine detailed. Like right now.

[regfootball]

Yes they did and they were certainly "ringers" 0-60 time were often in the mid 6's and a few mods would get them close to 6 flat. They were very entertaining to drive considering they were a large FWD V8 powered American boat. I so badly wanted one but settled on an SLE. When the GXP came out I knew I had to get one, I loved the new "clean" styling and also I had my son encouraging me to take the plunge and I now with 29,000 miles on mine I am certainly glad I did.

The best times I ever saw on a northstar equipped bonneville was mid sevens.

[gm4life]

The best times I ever saw on a northstar equipped bonneville was mid sevens.

I know this much I had seen officcal tests put it in 6.5-6.8 range, and after driving one I have no doubt. I have never personally seen anyone run one in the low 6's but I have heard it is possible, and yes it requires a few mods.

gm4life, you make me want to go get mine detailed. Like right now.

I need to be doing that as well pretty soon here too.

[hyperv6]

My buddy just bought a GXP Bonnie. Nice car and looks great. You can buy them cheap now. The issue was they were not worth near $40,000 new. No FWD Pontiac was worth over $30,000

Now let see a raise of hands here. Let see who knows what a real Pontiac was.

Who remembers.

Tri Power. [Yes I have had people look at me as ask what that was and they were driving a new Pontiac]

Duel Gate Hurst.

8 Lug wheels.

421 SD

455 HO

WS6

Ram Air I, II, III IV, V

Royal Bobcat [no it is not Canadian if you don't know]

Reverb........ I wonder if they could use that with XM? LOL!

What I think is lost on many is they think Pontiac was lost when they lost Pontiac Power. I think the truth is that Pontiac lost it's identity once Delorean left. He fought the system to make Pontiac as different in not just Perfromance but styling and features. Many of the thinks he could not get approved but the ones he did made Pontiac different and something that was not just another Chevy. The loss of identiy started in the early 70's and faded till the mid 80's. I think that is what Lutz tried to do with the G8, GTO and Solstice but he came so late and has too little money to do all he wanted. There was a lot of similarities with Lutz and Delorean. They fought for what they wanted and often stepped on many toes on the way to doing it.

If Pontiac had gotten the Radial tires. OHC V8, disc brakes and Fuel injection as he wanted in the 60's imagine what that would have said about GM as a real leader.

In the end we just ended up with a better styled Camaro and other restyled Chevys. Only the Fiero, Solstice and G8 stand out but GM screwed them all up with too little too late

I suspect the new TT V6 will play a strong part if they should bring back the Pontiac name. Holden is all over it already.

Edited March 26, 2010 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

I remember all of those things, Hyper.

But the simple fact is that Pontiac has been many different things over the long decades it has existed.

Should it return, only its better incarnations should be offered.

[Drew Dowdell]

My buddy just bought a GXP Bonnie. Nice car and looks great. You can buy them cheap now. The issue was they were not worth near $40,000 new. No FWD Pontiac was worth over $30,000

Now let see a raise of hands here. Let see who knows what a real Pontiac was.

Who remembers.

Tri Power My dad has that on his Kawasaki H2

Duel Gate Hurst. That is, of course, the front entrance to the exclusive Hurst gated community in Western Delaware... so exclusive, you have to go through the gates twice.

8 Lug wheels. I think the Ford Super Duty has those....

421 SD That's the new format of Secure Digital cards for uploading direct to Google Images

455 HO Anything with 455 in it is an Oldsmobile, everyone knows that!!!

WS6 the silicone variant of WD40

Ram Air I, II, III, IV, V The settings for the A/C on 1993 and newer Dodge Rams.

Royal Bobcat Snowtires by Uniroyal

Reverb a setting on my grandmother's Hammond B6

How many did I get right?!

[Robert Hall]

My buddy just bought a GXP Bonnie. Nice car and looks great. You can buy them cheap now. The issue was they were not worth near $40,000 new. No FWD Pontiac was worth over $30,000

Now let see a raise of hands here. Let see who knows what a real Pontiac was.

Who remembers.

Tri Power. [Yes I have had people look at me as ask what that was and they were driving a new Pontiac]

Duel Gate Hurst.

8 Lug wheels.

421 SD

455 HO

WS6

Ram Air I, II, III IV, V

Royal Bobcat [no it is not Canadian if you don't know]

Reverb........ I wonder if they could use that with XM? LOL!

Problem is, those terms are mostly from over 40 years ago. I can't imagine those terms would resonate w/ new car buyers today (at least those under 60)...

[balthazar]

>>"Tri-Power, Hurst Dual Gate, 8 Lug wheels, 421 SD, 455 HO, WS6, Ram Air, Royal Bobcat, Reverb."<<

All well known. A complete '64 Tri-P set-up sits about 10 feet from me.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"I think the truth is that Pontiac lost it's identity once Delorean left."<<

Not it's identity certainly, but it's drive & spirit, yes.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"If Pontiac had gotten the Radial tires. OHC V8, disc brakes and Fuel injection as he wanted in the 60's imagine what that would have said about GM as a real leader. "<<

Well, Pontiac got FI in '57-58, and discs in '67- tho over at Buick discs initially performed worse than their (industry best) aluminum drums. Have to look into Pontiac discs (A-body) vs. the 8-lugs (B-body) as far as there being a performance advantage.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"In the end we just ended up with a better styled Camaro and other restyled Chevys."<<

Only arguable "restyled Chevy" in the '60s at Pontiac was the Firebird, so you can strike the "other Chevy's" charge in the context of your post (the 1960s).

-- -- -- -- --

-- -- -- -- --

>>"Problem is, those terms are mostly from over 40 years ago."<<

More people than you'd think are able to remember, or have learned of iconic industrial/marketing things older than that. Who would kno that the mercedes s-clas is on it's 9th generation except for a TV spot- the car wasn't imported here until the 4th or 5th generation. Advertising IS able to re-educate...

Edited March 27, 2010 by balthazar

[hyperv6]

Problem is, those terms are mostly from over 40 years ago. I can't imagine those terms would resonate w/ new car buyers today (at least those under 60)...

You miss the point.

My point was Pontiac offered what few others did at that time. Often it was copied by the other later after they did offer some of these things that set them appart.

The new car would need new things and new advances. How would you like to see Pontiac come back first in the GM line up with the 420 HP TT V6 and AWD? How would you like to see a Pontiac coupe or sedan be the first other than the Corvette to use Carbon Fiber panels? How about the first GM or American sedan to come with Ceramic Brakes like the ones on the ZR1.

With Pontiac going for performance and offering cars that have reason that make them worth more than the $40,000 people will pay it. Pontiac has pretended to be an Audi or BMW from America but blacked out trim on a FWD sedan just was never convincing. Also with what the Pontiac's were based on they were never worth anything over $30K.

Now if they focus on HVS like cars that Holden and Vauxhaull seem to sell well at higher prices Pontiac can return in low volumes at Buick dealers. Pontiac would no longer have the burden to be all things to everyone.

The only real thing we would salvage from the 60's is the performance image. Today they would create new and exciting features just as they did in the 60's that we remember today.

Many get too wrapped up in what a company did and forget to create a future classic. Time to move ahead as right now many of the performance cars today are the best we have ever had. Right now is the good old days and many will miss them because they are looking back.

My present 08 SS 4 cylinder would spank my 68 SS 8 cylinder in many different ways. And with the way thing may go we may look back 20 years from now and say remember when?

[hyperv6]

>>"Tri-Power, Hurst Dual Gate, 8 Lug wheels, 421 SD, 455 HO, WS6, Ram Air, Royal Bobcat, Reverb."<<

All well known. A complete '64 Tri-P set-up sits about 10 feet from me.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"I think the truth is that Pontiac lost it's identity once Delorean left."<<

Not it's identity certainly, but it's drive & spirit, yes.

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>>"If Pontiac had gotten the Radial tires. OHC V8, disc brakes and Fuel injection as he wanted in the 60's imagine what that would have said about GM as a real leader. "<<

Well, Pontiac got FI in '57-58, and discs in '67- tho over at Buick discs initially performed worse than their (industry best) aluminum drums. Have to look into Pontiac discs (A-body) vs. the 8-lugs (B-body) as far as there being a performance advantage.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"In the end we just ended up with a better styled Camaro and other restyled Chevys."<<

Only arguable "restyled Chevy" in the '60s at Pontiac was the Firebird, so you can strike the "other Chevy's" charge in the context of your post (the 1960s).

-- -- -- -- --

-- -- -- -- --

>>"Problem is, those terms are mostly from over 40 years ago."<<

More people than you'd think are able to remember, or have learned of iconic industrial/marketing things older than that. Who would kno that the mercedes s-clas is on it's 9th generation except for a TV spot- the car wasn't imported here until the 4th or 5th generation. Advertising IS able to re-educate...

Pontiac did lose much of it's identity in the 70's and later a model at a time as they got watered down and became more corperate. They all did not go at once.

As for what Pontiac had it was not the real performance of these items but the fact that Pontiac was first and offered the future in 1965 vs not getting some of these items till much later. Radials on the 1965 GTO would have been a major deal. Also the disc would have force the industry to play catch up as Deloren wanted them all the way around not just the front as a option.

These things were really really cool as only cars like Jag, Ferrari and other high end cars offered such rare things. These things spoke real performance.

As for my Restyled Camaro comment it was ment for the 3rd and 4th gen cars as under the nose and tail they were just sisters. At least the first gen really got different engines and tuning to the suspension. They were better in almost every way vs the Camaro. In the later cars one was not really any better than the other. IF you bough a Bird it was for the styling over the Camaro nothing more.

The long and short of this is if Pontiac returns it needs to regain the performce image like it once held and be legitimate about it in a modern world. No more Euro wantabe. It needs to be a true world class performance car.

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac did lose much of it's identity in the 70's and later a model at a time as they got watered down and became more corperate. They all did not go at once.

As for what Pontiac had it was not the real performance of these items but the fact that Pontiac was first and offered the future in 1965 vs not getting some of these items till much later. Radials on the 1965 GTO would have been a major deal. Also the disc would have force the industry to play catch up as Deloren wanted them all the way around not just the front as a option.

These things were really really cool as only cars like Jag, Ferrari and other high end cars offered such rare things. These things spoke real performance.

As for my Restyled Camaro comment it was ment for the 3rd and 4th gen cars as under the nose and tail they were just sisters. At least the first gen really got different engines and tuning to the suspension. They were better in almost every way vs the Camaro. In the later cars one was not really any better than the other. IF you bough a Bird it was for the styling over the Camaro nothing more.

The long and short of this is if Pontiac returns it needs to regain the performce image like it once held and be legitimate about it in a modern world. No more Euro wantabe. It needs to be a true world class performance car.

I agree with much of this, so I won't argue over the finer points except in one area.

What you say about second, third, and fourth gen Firebirds is not entirely true - sometiimes dramatically so. If you think about it, I'm sure you could name the same reasons I am thinking of.

[Robert Hall]

>>"Tri-Power, Hurst Dual Gate, 8 Lug wheels, 421 SD, 455 HO, WS6, Ram Air, Royal Bobcat, Reverb."<<

All well known. A complete '64 Tri-P set-up sits about 10 feet from me.

You are an old-car fan, not the typical car buyer..

>>"Problem is, those terms are mostly from over 40 years ago."<<

More people than you'd think are able to remember, or have learned of iconic industrial/marketing things older than that. Who would kno that the mercedes s-clas is on it's 9th generation except for a TV spot- the car wasn't imported here until the 4th or 5th generation. Advertising IS able to re-educate...

Actually, the S-class has been imported to the US since it's first generation. It's just that M-B just had a much lower profile (and low sales volume) in the US in the '50s.

[Satty]

Pontiac tried reminding people of the brand's history with the "Wider is Better" tagline in the 90's and the GTO in the 00's. Neither was a smashing success.

[Drew Dowdell]

would have been more effective if there was actually a remarkable difference in the Pontiacs..... as it was, the Intrigue actually had a wider track.

[hyperv6]

I agree with much of this, so I won't argue over the finer points except in one area.

What you say about second, third, and fourth gen Firebirds is not entirely true - sometiimes dramatically so. If you think about it, I'm sure you could name the same reasons I am thinking of.

Unless you are talking ram air hood or Firehawk they were the same engines and suspension. Only the shape of some of the body panels were different.

If I am missing something tell me?

When I deal with these cars at work nearly all the mecahincals are listed as 4th gen F body or Camaro/Firebird. The mechanicals are all the same. Even the WS6 package from SLP was a Camaro SS.

I do not lump in the second gen so much as most years did have a real Pontiac engine and it own tuning for the suspension. Now starting in 1983 most of the real mechanical differance went away and they became mechanical twins.

I do still feel bad for the guy in the Virgin Islands who though he had a factory 402 BBC Chevy in his 79 TA. I think I broke his heart when I told him he had a Olds 403. He was not the only one. All you have to do is ask where do you dump the oil in?

[hyperv6]

Pontiac tried reminding people of the brand's history with the "Wider is Better" tagline in the 90's and the GTO in the 00's. Neither was a smashing success.

There again smoke and mirrors.

Real euro performance in a real world class car needs to be GM's goal if not in a Pontiac then in the new Buicks if they choose to do performance cars. It is time that GM stop comparing them selves as like the Audi and BMW and start maikling Pontiac or Buick the car the others are compared too.

Like the recent SRX Turbo vs Audi in one of the magazines. They said that Cadillac nailed the suspension and it was more planted than the import. If you want to be accepted you need to be the best.

If they had only made the interior a little better they would have had a hands down win.

If Pontiac stops being the Walmart performance car and comes back as a true class leader it can make a impact. With a higher price on a class leading car they can make it. But if they try to under cut the price and say it is almost as good that is not going to cut it.

With no dealer network to support and no need to make econo cars to fill ever niche or need they can do one thing and one thing right. The real issue is will they do it. Low volume means they will have to get it right as you are not going to fleet sale these things if they fail.

[Croc]

Dead, gone, fini. Seriously, it ain't coming back. Just like GM won't make another Oldsmobile Aurora, Cutlass Supreme or Toronado. It's over, so please, get counseling, get some happy pills, hold a little funeral in your backyard...whatever you have to do to move on...but just do it.

[Satty]

Dead, gone, fini. Seriously, it ain't coming back. Just like GM won't make another Oldsmobile Aurora, Cutlass Supreme or Toronado. It's over, so please, get counseling, get some happy pills, hold a little funeral in your backyard...whatever you have to do to move on...but just do it.

But what about this group that can sell at least 200,000 cars at 12% margins within 2 years? They have a website, therefore they must be legit.

[hyperv6]

Not dead not a sure thing either. With the economy all things are in flux right now.

As for that Pontiac group they have no idea they are crazier than we are.

If Pontiac returns it will be a lot less than 200,000 cars. If we can get a couple rebodied Holdens at 40k units a year we will be doing good. Remember if they do it they will not and should not be cheap or lacking what they need to be world class.

Edited March 27, 2010 by hyperv6