“I would never say we would never talk about Pontiac again,” - Mark Reuss

[RjION]

Sure why not ........... we still speak of Oaklands

[Camino LS6]

Unless you are talking ram air hood or Firehawk they were the same engines and suspension. Only the shape of some of the body panels were different.

If I am missing something tell me?

When I deal with these cars at work nearly all the mecahincals are listed as 4th gen F body or Camaro/Firebird. The mechanicals are all the same. Even the WS6 package from SLP was a Camaro SS.

I do not lump in the second gen so much as most years did have a real Pontiac engine and it own tuning for the suspension. Now starting in 1983 most of the real mechanical differance went away and they became mechanical twins.

I do still feel bad for the guy in the Virgin Islands who though he had a factory 402 BBC Chevy in his 79 TA. I think I broke his heart when I told him he had a Olds 403. He was not the only one. All you have to do is ask where do you dump the oil in?

Firstly, I'm glad that you concede the point of the second gens as there are too many differences to list there.

I'll grant you that mechanically, the third and fourth gens became ever closer over the years. However, many differences (and some unique models) still differentiated the two cars quite a bit. From the extremes of the '89 TTA and the 91/92 Firehawks, to the very different sheetmetal and interiors, to the differenet levels of standard equiptment the cars were actually quite well differentiated. Generally, more equiptment came standard on a Firebird than a similar Camaro. Firebird also had more unique option packages (WS6, Firehawk, etc.) than the same year Camaro. I'll grant that many of the differences were small, and that the cars were always closely related. But they were never clones or simple badge jobs.

[Croc]

Not dead not a sure thing either. With the economy all things are in flux right now.

Is GM producing any Pontiacs? No.

Is Pontiac receiving any development money? No.

Is Pontiac listed on the GM website as part of the company? No.

I'd say it's dead. And in this economy, nothing is in flux regarding launching a (new) brand/division. No companies are expanding right now, and none will until things start looking up.

[hyperv6]

Firstly, I'm glad that you concede the point of the second gens as there are too many differences to list there.

I'll grant you that mechanically, the third and fourth gens became ever closer over the years. However, many differences (and some unique models) still differentiated the two cars quite a bit. From the extremes of the '89 TTA and the 91/92 Firehawks, to the very different sheetmetal and interiors, to the differenet levels of standard equiptment the cars were actually quite well differentiated. Generally, more equiptment came standard on a Firebird than a similar Camaro. Firebird also had more unique option packages (WS6, Firehawk, etc.) than the same year Camaro. I'll grant that many of the differences were small, and that the cars were always closely related. But they were never clones or simple badge jobs.

Splitting hairs over stand and non standard equipment or special packages done out side GM like SLP are pretty bogus. The fast is the cars generaly did not differ much in their normal standard Z28 and Trans AM packages. Pontiac did offer a limited Turbo Pace car on the third gen that was about the only thing that really set that gen apart.

The SS and WS6 were the same car. The Firehawk was more a outside deal like the GMMG cars.

The differeances in the last gens were like identical twins with different fingerprints. Sorry but that was a GM car not a Pontiac or Chevy any longer.

At least in the first gen they lowered the car and even did a lot of tricks to the suspension that the Camaro never got. The one or two arms in the back to keep the axle planted were never used as were many other parts.

I always called the Camaro a poor mans Firebird! LOL!

[hyperv6]

Is GM producing any Pontiacs? No.

Is Pontiac receiving any development money? No.

Is Pontiac listed on the GM website as part of the company? No.

I'd say it's dead. And in this economy, nothing is in flux regarding launching a (new) brand/division. No companies are expanding right now, and none will until things start looking up.

Hey this is all just fun speculation. We could all be sitting here belly acking about the loss of Pontiac or have a little fun messing around with ideas. I find this more productive till we get something real to talk about. It has been a little quiet. It beats the hell out of arguing over a Patten line drawing of the new Malibu that is not a good representation of what it will be like.

If Pontiac comeback or not we all will get up Monday and go to work. It will not make a differance to me if they do anything or not. But it is fun just to mess with the idea.

There is a lot of things not going to happen till the economy gets back on track. Right now it is a ways off.

[hyperv6]

One odd thing I have noticed is that all the GM drag race teams in Pro Stock are still running Pontiac's with emblems and names still on the cars. They are not getting funds from GM since they were dropped last year. Most times once a team is dropped they will either go with a new brand or they will run the same car with out the brand and model name on the car.

I suspect GM has plans to return soon to NHRA but I only wonder what they are planning. I know the Mustang has returned could the Camaro return to Pro Stock be far off?

I suspect there is angreement with the GM teams and that is why they are still flying the Pontiac colors for GM?

I know someone connected to the Ken Black racing team. I will see if he knows anything or is willing and able to say what the deal is.

Other non GM teams made moved from Dodge to Ford so I wonder what kept some of the top teams at GM? KB racing could have gone to another brand real easy being a multi time champ.

[balthazar]

>>"Most times once a team is dropped they will either go with a new brand or they will run the same car with out the brand and model name on the car."<<

Theory : I can understand not advertising a brand you are not being paid to do so... but here they would be advertising.... a now non-entity.

[hyperv6]

>>"Most times once a team is dropped they will either go with a new brand or they will run the same car with out the brand and model name on the car."<<

Theory : I can understand not advertising a brand you are not being paid to do so... but here they would be advertising.... a now non-entity.

Even the couple Cobalts are still showing the colors too and are not getting funds.

General rule in good racing marketing is that if you are not getting any funds you do not show a name past present or future. Even in the past if a team was not funded by GM they may have had a G6 but it did not always have the Pontiac name on it. No name on the car opens the door to others you may be willing to pony up money as Ford has with the Mustang for several lower teams. [Pun intended].

I think GM has a hand shake agreement here. I suspect they have return plans and once the goverment is paid they will return in a big way.

[balthazar]

(Done right) that's a very warming theory.

[hyperv6]

(Done right) that's a very warming theory.

Just call it a hunch.

I have been around enough NHRA drivers to know they don't do much for free at the pro level. I just have a feeling something is up and I would have to guess the Camaro would be involved since it would look like a real Camaro in Pro Stock.

I has a new 2010 SS in my garage yesterday and today. I was looking at it and feel like it would make a bad ass looking drag car. I would love to see one painted up like Grumpy's Toy.

Edited March 30, 2010 by hyperv6

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Parisianne, 6000, Safari, Transport, Aztek, Quad-4 GrandAms, Rental G6es, Rental Grand Prix, Sunbirds........this is what the general public know about Pontiac.

Most don't know about the Solstice or the G8, or that even the Grand Am could have been had with a 5.3 V8.

Yeah...

And the general public also knows that Hyundai was a pile of $h! not even 10 years ago, and that Audis were a death trap when they first came here, and that Toyota's (gasp*) kill people just like other cars, and that Fiat had huge relaibility issues, and that Mini's were unsafe little cracker boxes.

This 'mindset' of "we can't reinvent our brands" seems to only be prevalent in the domestic automaker circle and it is 1) ridiculous and 2) defeatist. Soon we won't have any brands to reinvent if we don't HAVE CONFIDENCE in what the brands truly represent and INFORM the rest of the public that the stereotypes are completely off base and false.

A brand/identity is WHAT YOU MAKE IT. It isn't ASSIGNED to you unless you allow that to happen.

I think you meant Grand Prix, although a lightweight N body with a 5.3 could be pretty interesting.

What did people think of Hyundai/Kia not even 5 years ago? If a brand whose entire existence up until then has been to make cheap throwaway cars can have its image overturned, surely a brand with a long storied history can do the same.

GM has everything it needs to create a solid Pontiac lineup on the cheap. All it really needs is the desire.

And BTW, Epsilon would've been able to house the LS4 AFAIK.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Problem is, those terms are mostly from over 40 years ago. I can't imagine those terms would resonate w/ new car buyers today (at least those under 60)...

So that's a reason to nix the whole thing? There aren't plenty of brands on the market that benefit from years of recognition, yet still attract youthful buyers?

Pontiac tried reminding people of the brand's history with the "Wider is Better" tagline in the 90's and the GTO in the 00's. Neither was a smashing success.

You really think the "Wider is better" tagline and subsequent huge sales of that gen GP weren't a success?

Dead, gone, fini. Seriously, it ain't coming back. Just like GM won't make another Oldsmobile Aurora, Cutlass Supreme or Toronado. It's over, so please, get counseling, get some happy pills, hold a little funeral in your backyard...whatever you have to do to move on...but just do it.

Don't like the thread? See yourself out. This is a Pontiac discussion in a Pontiac forum, your need for attention to reinforce your insecurities isn't wanted here. (But I thought we established that a few years ago when we blackballed you)

I submit to you guys:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2010/112_1003_pontiac_gxp_lives_down_under/index.html

There is your Pontiac line, in spirit...

If HSV really wants and gets an 'entry level' line that isn't as expensive (READ: could actually sell here and not be priced through the roof like the regular HSVs) then what's stopping a Pontiac line?

Edited March 30, 2010 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[aldw]

Yeah...

And the general public also knows that Hyundai was a pile of $h! not even 10 years ago, and that Audis were a death trap when they first came here, and that Toyota's (gasp*) kill people just like other cars, and that Fiat had huge relaibility issues, and that Mini's were unsafe little cracker boxes.

This 'mindset' of "we can't reinvent our brands" seems to only be prevalent in the domestic automaker circle and it is 1) ridiculous and 2) defeatist. Soon we won't have any brands to reinvent if we don't HAVE CONFIDENCE in what the brands truly represent and INFORM the rest of the public that the stereotypes are completely off base and false.

A brand/identity is WHAT YOU MAKE IT. It isn't ASSIGNED to you unless you allow that to happen.

Been saying that for a long time too, seems that the media prefers to box things in simplistic fashion for the unwashed masses to gulp down.

[Chicagoland]

Required reading for any Pontiac fan is these topics on www.atewithmotor.com:

1953-54 Pontiac

1964 GTO

1967 Firebird

It wasn't always 'muscle cars' for Ponhco, and the competition between GM brands helped it go BK. A Pontiac dealer stealing a Chevy buyer with a Sunfire or Grand Am with huge rebates lost $$$ overall. GM has to get back to making a steady flow of profits before any 'niche' brand can be created.

Here are GM brands that died in the Great Depression: Oakland, Viking, Marquette, LaSalle

Should all of those come back as well?

Edited April 2, 2010 by Chicagoland

[surgeont]

if you dont like Pontiac,then go to Oldsmobile site

[Drew Dowdell]

You really think the "Wider is better" tagline and subsequent huge sales of that gen GP weren't a success?

Well... technically... the Intrigue had a wider track than the GP.... so the Olds was the better car.

[surgeont]

what I have learned about forums is those that disagree,swarm to point out how bad Pontiac was and their justification to support that. It would seem to me that if you don't like a brand,then go to what you do like and blab there all you want. Instead we get these einsteins that go back & forth about negative BS and why Pontiac should be forgotten. Same with Hummer and Saturn. Many loved the Pontiac for its good points and if it isn't your choice then move on.

[Satty]

I'm gonna go put some non-functional hood scoops on my car now.

[PurdueGuy]

surgeont, perhaps what you should learn about forums is that it's rather annoying when a thread has been dormant for a loooong time, and someone brings it back just to make some off the cuff comment that doesn't add anything to the thread.

[ocnblu]

I'm headed straight away to Pep Boys for some non-functional fender vents for my car, like a Mini Cooper has. Pics soon!

[FAPTurbo]

I'm headed straight away to Pep Boys for some non-functional fender vents for my car, like a Mini Cooper has. Pics soon!

Image also echoes my sentiment about this thread, and its bumpage. And Pontiac too. The brand, like this thread, should stay buried.

[SAmadei]

Image also echoes my sentiment about this thread, and its bumpage. And Pontiac too. The brand, like this thread, should stay buried.

Quick! Bury it! No discussions of the embarrassing, once top selling brand that reminds people that once GM had swagger and testicular fortitude. We must only idolize our Toyota-emulating GM masters. Discussions can only include comparisons to other appliances, interior plastic quality, fit and finish and me-too styling. Bury! Bury! Bury ANYTHING else!

Seriously, though, I kinda hate the thread necromancy.

[Drew Dowdell]

Someone today called the Camaro I am driving a Firebird.....

[Daryl Z71]

There a bunch of idiots for killing Pontiac in the first place. Their even bigger idiots for not dumping the Impala, and bringing the G8 over to Chevrolet as a Caprice! Someone should be canned for that decision!

[Satty]

I'm headed straight away to Pep Boys for some non-functional fender vents for my car, like a Mini Cooper has. Pics soon!

You want your car to look like my wife's? Weird. Better get some auxiliary driving lamps as well. Or not, better see if your insurance will cover the costs when you wreck it.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm headed straight away to Pep Boys for some non-functional fender vents for my car, like a Mini Cooper has. Pics soon!

just wait and trade up to the biewique version of your car in a couple months... they come standard

[ocnblu]

Waitin' fer a tadpole LUV.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Waitin' fer a tadpole LUV.

I have a feeling the Colorado will come here just as it's been shown (no different face), but that's where the GMC comes in for the NA market (maybe it will have the tougher looking face, much like how the Equinox/Terrain are differentiated).

[Camino LS6]

My Pontiacs had functional vents and scoops.

Image also echoes my sentiment about this thread, and its bumpage. And Pontiac too. The brand, like this thread, should stay buried.

Quick! Bury it! No discussions of the embarrassing, once top selling brand that reminds people that once GM had swagger and testicular fortitude. We must only idolize our Toyota-emulating GM masters. Discussions can only include comparisons to other appliances, interior plastic quality, fit and finish and me-too styling. Bury! Bury! Bury ANYTHING else!

This.

[Satty]

Fact: Pontiac is not a current GM brand.

Fact: Pontiac was a heavily fleeted brand through the 90's and 00's.

Fact: Time travel isn't possible.

There is no Pontiac right now, nobody wants what Pontiac has been for the last 20 years and there isn't a way to re-live the days when Pontiac was relevant.

[Camino LS6]

Sure there is, if negative folks like you stay out of the Pontiac forum.

Seriously, why do you post here.

Some of us enjoyed Pontiac, and your comments are like bird &#036;h&#33; on a fresh washjob.

[Drew Dowdell]

both of you stop.

[SAmadei]

Fact: Pontiac is not a current GM brand.

Technically, Chevy, Buick and so on are not current brands of the GM Corp. we all loved, either.

In any case, Pontiac is still trademark and intellectual property held hostage by the General Motors Company, and would only logically be discussed on a GM site.

Fact: Pontiac was a heavily fleeted brand through the 90's and 00's.

Yawn. Same as Chevies and Buicks.

Fact: Time travel isn't possible.

Please prove. Most current physicists seem divided on the issue. Did your time using the LHC result in some newly discovered, unpublished scientific evidence that helps you prove a negative? Proving a negative would be Nobel Prize territory for sure.

nobody wants what Pontiac has been for the last 20 years and there isn't a way to re-live the days when Pontiac was relevant.

Some of us are perfectly fine with many of Pontiac's offerings of the last 20 years. TAs, G8s, GTOs, Solstices, B-villes, GPs. And anyone can relive the relevant days by buying a classic Pontiac.

It is the new Cruze or the Impala that has suddenly propelled you into the fine wine and cheese tasting high society set?!?

[Drew Dowdell]

Fact: We also talk about heritage brands here.

[Robert Hall]

Fact: We also talk about heritage brands here.

Yes, that's why the Pontiac forum is in the 'Heritage Marques' section.

[balthazar]

I'd take a clean '64 Catalina coupe, SlimJim & all, over a brand new Cruze ANNYYDAAY. Far more interesting & durable AND it appreciates in value.

[Drew Dowdell]

Fact: We also talk about heritage brands here.

Yes, that's why the Pontiac forum is in the 'Heritage Marques' section.

Any brand can be talked about in any forum as long as it is pertinent to the topic at hand.

[SAmadei]

I'd take a clean '64 Catalina coupe, SlimJim & all, over a brand new Cruze ANNYYDAAY. Far more interesting & durable AND it appreciates in value.

I'll take just a Slim Jim, the quasi-food one I've sworn off of, over a Cruze any day.

I prefer mechanically separated and rendered mystery meat over mechanically separated and rendered automotive styling.

[Robert Hall]

What's a Slim Jim have to do with a '64 Catalina?

[SAmadei]

What's a Slim Jim have to do with a '64 Catalina?

It was the Roto Hydramatic tranny... nicknamed the "Slim Jim". It shifted different than the typical Turbo-Hydro and was less durable.

Phased out after 1964, I think Balthy is indicating that it was a standard item in the Catalina.

[balthazar]

^ Yep; it was the auto trans option on the "F/S Jr" Cats & GPs. RHM375, reverse where it belongs; at the bottom. Super HydraMatic & Roto HydraMatic were replaced by the Turbo HydraMatic in '65 for O-P-Chv... Buick & Cadillac got a jump starting in '64 (tho Buick called their's a 'Super Turbine 400'.

My '64 GP was still able to overpower the open rear and execute side-to-side wheelspin thru the RHM.

I grew to find them.... charming.

[daves87rs]

Fact: We also talk about heritage brands here.

+1

Gee, I noticed people burn things quickly around here.....

I also sense people still holding grudges over things they could not control.......

[Drew Dowdell]

What's a Slim Jim have to do with a '64 Catalina?

It was the Roto Hydramatic tranny... nicknamed the "Slim Jim". It shifted different than the typical Turbo-Hydro and was less durable.

Phased out after 1964, I think Balthy is indicating that it was a standard item in the Catalina.

Someone want to write up something about this? I've never heard of it before and I'd like to know the tech and history behind it. New thread.

[SAmadei]

What's a Slim Jim have to do with a '64 Catalina?

It was the Roto Hydramatic tranny... nicknamed the "Slim Jim". It shifted different than the typical Turbo-Hydro and was less durable.

Phased out after 1964, I think Balthy is indicating that it was a standard item in the Catalina.

Someone want to write up something about this? I've never heard of it before and I'd like to know the tech and history behind it. New thread.

Actually, it would likely be useful to broaden the scope to include all of GM's automatics between '40 and '64, when many of them were as unrelated as the engines were.

Its not my strength, and Wikipedia is a bit too dry on the subjects... but the trivia is killer... I can't believe GM's Jetaway was a 4 speed! Talk about 30~40 years ahead of its time.

[Robert Hall]

Its not my strength, and Wikipedia is a bit too dry on the subjects... but the trivia is killer... I can't believe GM's Jetaway was a 4 speed! Talk about 30~40 years ahead of its time.

Hmmm...Wikipedia says the Super Turbine 300 aka Jetaway was a 2 speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Turbine_300

Didn't know GM had 4 speed autos before the '90s.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[SAmadei]

Its not my strength, and Wikipedia is a bit too dry on the subjects... but the trivia is killer... I can't believe GM's Jetaway was a 4 speed! Talk about 30~40 years ahead of its time.

Hmmm...Wikipedia says the Super Turbine 300 aka Jetaway was a 2 speed.

http://en.wikipedia....per_Turbine_300

Didn't know GM had 4 speed autos before the '90s.

Sorry, I should have specified the FIRST Jetaway, not the second. The first came out in '56 as the "Controlled Coupling Hydramatic" or "dual-coupling Hydramatic"... the second Jetaway came about in '64 and indeed had 2 speeds.

I hate 2 speed automatics.

GM's 4 speed trannies resumed in 1980 with the hugely underestimated 200-4R

[balthazar]

The earliest HydraMatics were 4-speeds also. '47 Cadillac HM :

1st: 3.82:1

2nd: 2.63:1

3rd: 1.45:1

4th: 1:1

4-spd autos @ GM went from the first production 1940 units thru the Super HydraMatic (Pontiac SC & Bonne) of 1964... and thru the same year for Olds. 'Junior' full-size cars (Catalina, GP, Starfire, etc) got the 3-spd Roto-HydraMatic for 1961-1964.

Cadillac dropped it's 4-spd auto after '63 for the new 3-spd Turbo HydraMatic for '64, as did Buick (tho at Buick, the ST400 replaced the infinitely-variable DynaFlow ('48~'63)).

• • •

Even limiting the discussion to General Motors automatics, the volume of history, information & specifics is voluminous.

For example; few know Buick built transmissions for Olds, first manual units, then in '36 Buick began building the 'Automatic Safety Transmission' for the '37 Olds, too. Buick reluctantly offered it in '38... but the trans really wasn't very successful and it was dropped entirely in '39. Buick had been working on the side on it's proprietory DynaFlow, the spiritual successor to their earlier mid-'30s 'Roller' auto trans (that was cancelled at the last minute due to excessive costs). The 'modern' HydraMatic was introduced in Olds' models for '40, and Cadillac for '41- it's design & genesis beginning -as customary for the first 50 years of GM- at Cadillac Engineering.

Edited October 12, 2011 by balthazar

[daves87rs]

What's a Slim Jim have to do with a '64 Catalina?

It was the Roto Hydramatic tranny... nicknamed the "Slim Jim". It shifted different than the typical Turbo-Hydro and was less durable.

Phased out after 1964, I think Balthy is indicating that it was a standard item in the Catalina.

Someone want to write up something about this? I've never heard of it before and I'd like to know the tech and history behind it. New thread.

I like!

[balthazar]

^ Would be a good piece for a C&G Wiki~Shhhhh!!

• • •

Give me a few days, I'll give it a whirl.

Edited October 12, 2011 by balthazar

[NeonLX]

OMG...had forgotten about the old 4-speed HydraMatics. Had several of them in the famiily back in the day ('60 Star Chief, '58 Olds Super 88). The thing I remember most about the '58 Olds was how fast it came up out of first gear...there also seemed to be a pretty solid connection because the engine would sound like it was getting lugged after some of the upshifts...wow, memories...