Failed American Cities

[trinacriabob]

Man oh man real estate in the US is cheap lately. This is about the maximum that 300k buys you in Calgary:

http://crel.com/view_listing.php?listing=mls&id=C3404891

Keeping in mind the "standard" value difference between CDN dollar and US dollar, i.e. the 27K : 22K base relationship when LaCrosse (CX) was new, then that townhouse would be about $235K in US dollars. That's not bad. It seems fairly roomy and it has the drive-under 2-car garage.

I am afraid to ask what that would cost in a decent neighborhood in Vancouver...

Edited March 16, 2010 by trinacriabob

[the_yellow_dart]

This is Toronto's downtown Little Italy if you want to look around. Just like Manhattan's, it's not as purely Italian as it used to be.

Google Street View

[the_yellow_dart]

Hey... The Little House is for sale!

MLS listing

The Little House website

Floor Plan:

[ShadowDog]

Hey... The Little House is for sale!

MLS listing

The Little House website

Floor Plan:

I'd rather live in a double-wide.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Keeping in mind the "standard" value difference between CDN dollar and US dollar, i.e. the 27K : 22K base relationship when LaCrosse (CX) was new, then that townhouse would be about $235K in US dollars. That's not bad. It seems fairly roomy and it has the drive-under 2-car garage.

I am afraid to ask what that would cost in a decent neighborhood in Vancouver...

The disparity on base prices is simply gouging, unfortunately- the Canadian dollar is near parity and has been there for some time. Last I checked the Canadian dollar is worth .98 USD. Automakers never adjusted the prices of vehicles here since our dollar soared up from ~0.72 to parity (not fair). In reality 299000$CDN is 293000$USD.

As for Vancouver, the prices are out of this world. The average home price is 640k.

[Drew Dowdell]

The disparity on base prices is simply gouging, unfortunately- the Canadian dollar is near parity and has been there for some time. Last I checked the Canadian dollar is worth .98 USD. Automakers never adjusted the prices of vehicles here since our dollar soared up from ~0.72 to parity (not fair). In reality 299000$CDN is 293000$USD.

As for Vancouver, the prices are out of this world. The average home price is 640k.

Is Vancouver a bubble city? Housing prices like that simply cannot be sustainable unless there is a huge income bump for living there.

[trinacriabob]

This is Toronto's downtown Little Italy if you want to look around. Just like Manhattan's, it's not as purely Italian as it used to be.

I've been there once. It's on College, west of downtown, and then there's another Little Italy on St. Clair West. The original Little Italy has a fair number of Portuguese folks living there. Either way, good Italian eats (pastas, tirmaisu) and good Portuguese bakeries (pasteis de nata and freshly baked bread). I also like "the Danforth," a couple of subway stops east of downtown (TYD knows), that has unbelievable Greek food. Toronto has insanely good food. So does Montreal.

[trinacriabob]

The list of miserable cities showed up on home pages a couple of days ago. Not necessarily in order, it included the following 10:

Cleveland OH

Canton OH

Detroit MI

Flint MI

Stockton CA (very bleak and efforts to turn it around are dim)

Scranton PA (maybe)

Miami FL

St Louis MO

Memphis TN

Chicago IL

I think Cleveland took the top spot. I was surprised to see Chicago on there. Some people (those who live there, or near there) rave about it. I don't like it, and I went to grad school 135 miles from there, so I can weigh in. Once you get past the "wow" factor of "The Loop" and some nice Gold Coast high-rises, it's a big so-what (my opinion).

[the_yellow_dart]

In a lot of ways I found Chicago to be Toronto, turned 90 degrees counterclockwise.

Seriously, three are a lot of apt comparisons. Central lakefront downtown, lousy transit, ethnically diverse, cold, semi-touristy... that's all I can think of for now. It really is the American city I can most see Toronto compared to.

[trinacriabob]

In a lot of ways I found Chicago to be Toronto, turned 90 degrees counterclockwise.

Seriously, three are a lot of apt comparisons. Central lakefront downtown, lousy transit, ethnically diverse, cold, semi-touristy... that's all I can think of for now. It really is the American city I can most see Toronto compared to.

In terms of icons, you are correct, especially in the CBD. But I like Toronto and don't care for Chicago. From Toronto, you can go to some nice destinations within reasonable driving time - Niagara Falls (actually fairly impressive), the beautiful wooded areas north of there, Ottawa, and, stretching it, even Montreal or NYC. Chicago, IMO, is too remote.

Toronto just needs a subway that goes into the airport.

[the_yellow_dart]

They're putting in a $30 per ride express train to the main downtown train station, a 22-minute ride.

The tracks need improvement to handle it. It will go right behind my house if built. Things may get noisy for me.

Eventually the TTC will have a light rail line going to the airport. All our new lines will likely be light rail, I think the era of subways in Toronto is over.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Is Vancouver a bubble city? Housing prices like that simply cannot be sustainable unless there is a huge income bump for living there.

Not true actually. Vancouver has had the highest housing costs in Canada for over a decade now, so it's sustained itself quite nicely. Additionally we never had the kind of housing crash and banking sector crash that the US did mainly because we had a properly regulated financial system. Our banks remained profitable throughout the Economic Downturn and we didn't have the default problems like the US did.

Also there is no income bump, in fact the Median Average Household income of Metro Vancouver is 55231$, while the Median Average Household Income for the Calgary is 68579$, Toronto is 64128$ and Montreal is 47979$.

Below is the latest data for single family residences in Canada's four largest metro areas (not cost of houses+condos etc as I could not find that statistic)

Edited March 16, 2010 by vonVeezelsnider

[frogger]

I think a lot of Vancouver's real estate value is based on foreigners with money buying property there with money they earned elsewhere. For instance years leading up to China taking back HK from the UK, HK people started buying up a lot of real estate in Vancouver out of fear as much as anything else.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just can't imagine taking on that kind of debt on that kind of income.

[ShadowDog]

I think a lot of Vancouver's real estate value is based on foreigners with money buying property there with money they earned elsewhere. For instance years leading up to China taking back HK from the UK, HK people started buying up a lot of real estate in Vancouver out of fear as much as anything else.

There's a reason why it's nicknamed Hongcouver.

[trinacriabob]

Below is the latest data for single family residences in Canada's four largest metro areas (not cost of houses+condos etc as I could not find that statistic)

All the more reason to live in Montreal...of the cities listed, it's the one I like most...

There's a reason why it's nicknamed Hongcouver.

yes, yes

[knightfan26917]

This has always been of interest to me. Of course Detroit and Flint are the famous ones, but scattered throughout the Midwest and Great Lakes states are smaller cities that were once heavy on industry and now empty shells.

...or the towns that once flourished because a major thoroughfare (Route 66, the Lincoln Highway, etc.) came through the town. Oh, the routes still do, but due to the "Super Slabs", the traffic and the people aren't necessarily there.

One town that comes to mind ... Glenrio TX:

09/11/09, Friday, ~12:45p ... After passing through Adrian TX, westbound travelers find themselves on I-40 for a bit. At this exit, you find the ghost town of Glenrio. These abandoned service station buildings greet travelers at the offramp....

09/11/09, Friday, ~12:50p ... A brief detour into the town of Glenrio finds travelers looking at abandoned buildings and evidence of a once-booming town, complete with a median on the main street, presumably to separate fast-moving traffic. In this shot is the former sign of the Texas Longhorn Motel, which once boasted of being the "First" and "Last" "Motel In Texas"....

Cort | 36swm.IL | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker * NoreastrTrek.Aug2010 *

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Those might be the best days we will ever know" ... Little Texas ... 'What Might've Been'

[trinacriabob]

...or the towns that once flourished because a major thoroughfare (Route 66, the Lincoln Highway, etc.) came through the town. One town that comes to mind ... Glenrio TX:

... After passing through Adrian TX, westbound travelers find themselves on I-40 for a bit

Driving through West Texas once you clear the large metro areas (San Antonio on 10 or Dallas on 40) is "challenging." It's very desolate. I once had to overnight along I-10 west of San Antonio, and prior to arriving in El Paso, in a town called Van Horn. I got up and kept driving west the following morning as quickly as possible. It was nice to see the New Mexico and Arizona state lines come into view, plus it was summer.

[Robert Hall]

Driving through West Texas once you clear the large metro areas (San Antonio on 10 or Dallas on 40) is "challenging." It's very desolate. I once had to overnight along I-10 west of San Antonio, and prior to arriving in El Paso, in a town called Van Horn. I got up and kept driving west the following morning as quickly as possible. It was nice to see the New Mexico and Arizona state lines come into view, plus it was summer.

About 30 years ago on our first vacation from Ohio to AZ, my folks and I stopped for the night at an RV park in Van Horn after spending the previous night at Traders Village in Grand Prarie (DFW area). Very desolate in Van Horn. Stayed in Midland IIRC on the return drive..

Another desolate area I've been through several times is I-40 between Albuqerque, NM and Flagstaff, AZ.,...spent the night in Grants and Gallup before, drove through the night across there once and slept in the car a few hours at a truck stop on the NM/AZ line...

[trinacriabob]

About 30 years ago on our first vacation from Ohio to AZ, my folks and I stopped for the night at an RV park in Van Horn after spending the previous night at Traders Village in Grand Prarie (DFW area). Very desolate in Van Horn. Stayed in Midland IIRC on the return drive..

Another desolate area I've been through several times is I-40 between Albuqerque, NM and Flagstaff, AZ.,...spent the night in Grants and Gallup before, drove through the night across there once and slept in the car a few hours at a truck stop on the NM/AZ line...

I have to correct my DFW mistake...it's I-20, meaning dowtown Dallas is connected to downtown Atlanta (learn something new every day)...

Speaking of open spaces and desolate, I sometimes think I'm agoraphobic. That's probably why the only 2 regions of the U.S. I've lived in and that I felt at home were the densely wooded PNW and Southeast.

[knightfan26917]

Driving through West Texas once you clear the large metro areas (San Antonio on 10 or Dallas on 40) is "challenging." It's very desolate.

Yeah, to some degree, I agree with you.

And, yet ... I dunno ... I was just fascinated by how open and wide it is. I don't know that I PREFER that type of isolation, but it sure is an interesting way of life ... compared to the "city" life of my daily exploits....

*shrugs*

I guess part of the intrigue for me is the abandoned places ... that make you wonder what they were like in their "hey day", like this one....

south of Afton OK, 09/08/09, Tuesday, ~3:45p

But ... the scenery can be awesome in its own way, too, kinda like....

west of Gallup NM, 09/12/09, Saturday, 4:10p

Cort | 36swm.IL | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker

MCs.Caprice|models.HO.legos.CHD.RadioShows|RTs.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"We missed a page or 2 somehow" ... Suzy Boggus ... 'Cinderella'

Edited April 7, 2010 by knightfan26917

[Robert Hall]

Yeah, to some degree, I agree with you.

And, yet ... I dunno ... I was just fascinated by how open and wide it is. I don't know that I PREFER that type of isolation, but it sure is an interesting way of life ... compared to the "city" life of my daily exploits....

One of things I remember about Gallup (or maybe it was Grants) is on the outskirts of town, was the number of abandoned or wrecked old cars lined up perpendicular to I-40 as you go from the east to the west.. driven through there 4 times in the last 10 years...not a junkyard, but more or less a lot of junked cars along a frontage road...

[frogger]

In a lot of ways I found Chicago to be Toronto, turned 90 degrees counterclockwise.

Seriously, three are a lot of apt comparisons. Central lakefront downtown, lousy transit, ethnically diverse, cold, semi-touristy... that's all I can think of for now. It really is the American city I can most see Toronto compared to.

Agreed on the city (save for the architecture). On the other hand the people are quite different and the violence in Chicago is pretty ridiculous in comparison. If I had to compare attitudes of people I'd say Ontario people are more similar to west coast Americans.

[the_yellow_dart]

There is a rust belt mentality that bleeds through as well though.

Maybe if you mixed a California and Ohio? That's probably the best comparison I can come up with for Ontarians.

[daves87rs]

One of things I remember about Gallup (or maybe it was Grants) is on the outskirts of town, was the number of abandoned or wrecked old cars lined up perpendicular to I-40 as you go from the east to the west.. driven through there 4 times in the last 10 years...not a junkyard, but more or less a lot of junked cars along a frontage road...

Very cool pictures.....

[ponchoman49]

Isn't it sad how much we have degenerated in the past 40 years. There is loyalty to nothing, no pride no upkeep and no one gives a damn about our glorious past. It really saddens me to watch America as we used to know it rot away like this as jobs and industry move over seas!

[knightfan26917]

Isn't it sad how much we have degenerated in the past 40 years. There is loyalty to nothing, no pride no upkeep and no one gives a damn about our glorious past.

I wouldn't agree with this completely.

Travel along Route 66, the Lincoln Highway, or any other "iconic" road ... and you'll see plenty of pride, upkeep and the preservation of the past, glorious and otherwise.

Cort | 36.m.IL | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker

MCs.Caprice | models.HO.legos.CHD.RadioShows | RTs.us66 = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"It's coming down to nothing more than apathy" ... The Fray ... 'Over My Head'

[mustang84]

And getting back to the point of this thread, would the protectionists here find it deplorable if it were shown that Phoenix and Las Vegas' growth was directly correlated with Detroit's collapse? Or is it only bad if a person with a funny name benefits?

The growth of sunbelt cities correlates with technological and mobility advancements in the 20th century. Phoenix and Las Vegas grew after air conditioning and the automobile became widespread. The ability to transport foods via refrigerator & freezer trucks also had a major impact, as did the modern supermarket.

Phoenix and Las Vegas have nothing to do with Detroit's decline and everything to do with changes in our society over the last 100 years.

[trinacriabob]

Sunbelt cities also grew because they are located in states that were tax friendly. Neither TX, NV nor FL have state income taxes (3 of the 6 that don't), and businesses believe there are incentives to locating there.

There is also the weather component. Despite blazing tropical summers in the S.E and South Central and blazing dry summers in the desert SW, the other 3 seasons are mild ... and, after footing a steep A/C bill for the summer, the living is easy during the other seasons.

Another thing could be the source of our immigration patterns. Historically, Europeans got off the ship in NY or Boston and, if Canada was their destination, that would have been Halifax. Even though air travel is the dominant form of international travel, the ports of entry to the US from Latin America and Asia are now Miami and Los Angeles, respectively. The importance of Atlanta and Houston as Delta and Continental hubs also fuels the growth of the Sunbelt and has made it much more international than "Southern."

[oldshurst442]

 

If you include all American's in that average... sure we're much richer.

Remove the top 400 wealthiest who's wealth has increase 1700% since 1970... and no, we're all actually poorer.

OK, this is just disconnected from reality. How many people would actually rather live in the 70s with no Internet or cell phones or modern health technology?

 

Yeah...I know....Im about to revive a dead thread. Watch-out people, zombies up ahead.

 

I realize this dude hasnt been around for awhile....but Id like to answer his question....(the rest of his posts are just plain dumb and uneducated. Im with you Drew all the way..)

 

Anyway...

 

I AM ONE OF THOSE FEW THAT WOULD LOVE TO LIVE IN THE 1970s....

Technically, I lived in the 1970s....born in 1973.

 

No internet??? NO FREAKIN' PROBLEM!!!!

Listen, the internet and how it is used as a communication device and transfer and storage of information in 2016 is just...words cannot describe this...

For me, the invention and usage of the internet is akin to the invention of fire and the wheel.

It has transformed humanity like never before. Fire and the wheel and the internet.  Mobility on land(the automobile and in the air come after fire,wheel and internet)

 

But...communication was still pretty darned good in the 1970s.

Cell phones?

 

Dude....really, there is no need for a cell phone for the average person to have 24/7.

Sure...communication is very important, but to post on Facebook that you just took a leak is a phenomenon that needs to go away....

Id rather non-Facebook/Twitter world of the 1970s...

When one wanted to cruise a chick,  he cruised a chick....he actually went up to TALK to her...face to face...made EYE CONTACT!!!

 

Besides....public telephones were EVERYWHERE....and only cost a bloody dime....how much is your monthly smart phone bill there CSPEC?

Talk about another useless thing we spend our money on making us even MORE poor...then we bitch about the price of a fast food hamburger slice of cheese that 75 cents is too expensive to add on to because we spend hundreds of dollars/month  on internet bills....

 

Which is more important to you?

Food or the chat we do on twitter?

 

The way the AVERAGE Joe uses the internet...the internet is useless....

 

Music was REAL.

Cars...were dreadful, or starting to become dreadful, yet, they seemed to be more fun....driving itself seemed to be more enjoyable.

Fashion was disgusting in the 1970s....yet, men were men and women were proud of that....

This is not about sexual orientation....just that marketing was not as a low point as it is now...

Good looking dude....metrosexual I believe is the term....

 

Yet....in the 1970s...

 

There was no need to exploit....

The women...were finally started to rise and NOT be second class sexualized citizens...well....that is a false statement I made...yet...in 2016...it seems that women have regressed....further than they were in the 1970s....

Loni Anderson...what a slut!!!!

 

 

 

 

2016...

 

 

 

 

Let me remind you....this girl was the sex pot singer of the 70s...

What a whore???!!!

 

 

Yeah...Id take the "medieval" medical era of the 1970s easily over 2016 any day of the week....

Oh....and AIDS first case was not reported until the 1980s...

[Robert Hall]

I was born in 1970, was a child of the 70s, have no interest in living in the 70s...but I do love a lot of music, movies and cars of the 1970s.  Had I been an adult then, I'd like to have been an early employee of Apple or Microsoft and been part of the revolution..that I would have enjoyed greatly.   I've been in the tech game since the early 90s, so I remember the rise of the web browser, the internet, and cell phones, but to have been there in the early days of the personal computer...

 

I would have worn checked jackets w/ wide lapels, aviator sunglasses, a handlebar stash, large side burns, and maybe driven a mid '70s Eldorado convertible or Lincoln Mark IV..

 

For '70s sex symbols, I'd have to pick Stevie Nicks and Farrah Fawcett...

 

 

Now go back to the late 60s, I'd love to have been working at NASA or the JPL in Pasadena..that would been geek heaven in that era.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[oldshurst442]

I was born in 1970, was a child of the 70s, have no interest in living in the 70s...but I do love a lot of music and cars of the 1970s.  Had I been around then, I'd like to have been an early employee of Apple or Microsoft and been part of the revolution..that I would have enjoyed greatly.   I've been in the game since the early 90s, so I remember the rise of the web browser, the internet, and cell phones, but to have been there in the early days of the personal computer...

 

I would have worn checked jackets w/ wide lapels, aviator sunglasses, a handlebar stash, large side burns, and maybe driven a mid '70s Eldorado convertible or Lincoln Mark IV..

 

For '70s sex symbols, I'd have to pick Stevie Nicks and Farrah Fawcett...

Yeah...Farrah Fawcett. MMMMMMMM. Tasty.

 

Teenager/early adult in the 1970s and its Trans Am all the way.

Disco AND Rock-N-Roll would be blasting on the radio.

 

Dressed like a young dude from that era did...

 

 

A successful restaurant owner, husband and father  as I am now  and its a Cadillac. Probably the Seville. Coupe or Sedan.

 

And dressed like a wise guy. No mustache.

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

1970s Rob would have probably been listening to a mix of the Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Who, Marvin Gaye, Issac Hayes, Parliament, Earth, Wind & Fire, Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles...

 

As for other periods in the past, sometimes I'd like to have been 25-30 in 1985 rather than 15.. I did like a lot about the mid-late 80s, esp. the music..

Edited April 22, 2016 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[regfootball]

thanks for the Blondie post!

[FordCosworth]

The country with the most mfg wins.

[oldshurst442]

Im quite happy actually being born in 1973 and being a teenager in the 1980s and living my adult life in the 2000s.

I don't prefer the 1970s as an adult over the 2000s.

 

I wouldn't mind switching though.

I know I wouldn't like to be an adult in the 1950s...as a teen yes, not as an adult.

 

To me, the 1950s (and 1960s) seem like a naïve period.

All the lies, innuendo that have been fed to the people, including the lies about WW2 and the false reasons why it started making it seem like the Nazis were the ONLY bad guys, the Cold War and making THAT seem like the Communists were the ONLY bad guys...

The too perfect world of the American family with the dog, house and white picket fence....and the hypocrisy surrounding the devil's music, blacks, race relations and the place of the white male versus any other minority including women...

To me it seemed like in the 1940s, women had more rights than they did in the 1950s...they actually worked in factories to produce military weapons....they actually played sports andf were not frowned upon while doing so.... 

 

I feel that the assassination of JFK really woke many people up...

And all the uprising whether it was Malcolm X or Martin Luther King or women burning their bras really sent a message to "take it to the man"...

Which is good. I feel like we don't do enough of that today...and we should as we are ;letting corporate greed rule us...

 

On the other hand, maybe we are too cynical today....the pendulum has swung the other way, maybe too far the other way as opposed to being too naïve.

 

I would love to have lived as a teen in the 1920s and 1930s...

Mucho poverty, but it seems to me that our politicians and companies cared a tad more about the well being of their people as opposed to today.

 

But maybe Im seeing those times from red coloured glasses too...and Im seeing the 1950s with very dark Ray Bans...

[riviera74]

The country with the most mfg wins.

 

I would say that this may well be the real economic issue of our times: who's economy is it anyways?  The 1% decided about 40 years ago that loyalty to maximum profit shall tower above all else. Don't believe me? Head to Youngstown OH after September of 1977 ---- after six steel mills shut down with NOTHING to replace them.  Then look at the decline of all the factory towns since then, especially those that have found no real alternative to being a factory town.  You see discontent (if not anger) over all sorts of things because the USA MFG sector is about a third of what it was in 1970 and MFG employment is about a tenth or even less, compared to 45 years ago.  The typical economist answer is to change jobs and skill sets, but what if you cannot afford the education required to be a computer coder or a nurse?  What about your children?

 

As much as anyone likes to reminisce about a particular time (for me it is the 80s not the 70s), those times have passed.  Those who say that we have unfair trade agreements with China may have a point.  Free trade with developing nations has sent a whole lot of otherwise domestically based jobs overseas because they have (once very) cheap labor and the fairly rapid rise of automation (especially in the last 25 years or so).  The working class need to make a living, not live under near-impoverished conditions.  The underclasses need that even more so.  What they see is rising costs and stagnant or falling wages combined with the fact that many of them are increasing unemployable.

 

The question I have is simple: what is to be done and how can we get that done?  I have no answers for this set of economic problems, simply because I don't know.

 

By the way, I personally would rather live now than 30 or 40 or 60 years ago.  What many see as difficulties can become (with the right ideas and execution) long-term opportunities.

[G. David Felt]

The days of graduating high school and getting a job on an assembly line are DEAD! You either need to focus your kids to trade school or college.

 

Automation will need service and with that is a variety of trade schools that train on servicing / repairing this equipment. This is the best way to go for those that just do not want 4 years of College.

 

College skill set from the sciences and not liberal arts crap but actual science skills that allow them to work in today's society. 

 

The other issue is unless you can afford to give your kid everything, today's college student needs to accept living on a tight budget and being frugal. These kids graduating with 6 figures in Debt with stupid master of Medieval studies, AKA liberal art crap is a waste of time unless you were born with a gold spoon in your mouth and will inherit wealth so you are not a burden on society. Kids need to understand they cannot have a comfort life unless their parents want worthless kids for life. Wake up to the 21st century and if you are not willing to get a proper education then plan to have it taken by someone in the asian rim.