Failed American Cities

[the_yellow_dart]

Getting back to the original topic...

It saddens me to see this. In what is now a field used to stand the house where my grandmother grew up.

Buffalo

[loki]

WE DON'T HAVE FREE TRADE WITH THE CHINESE! THEY ARE A COMPLETELY PROTECTIONIST COUNTRY! THE CHINESE HAVE (relatively) FREE TRADE WITH THE U.S.!

Get back to me when the Chinese are buying as much from us as we are from them.

since our elected government does not have monetary policy powers, that effects all sorts of economic problems. we don't need to have a balanced trade with china, but we certainly need to "get back to work" here, at fair prices, meaning a free market. no altering subsidies, no quotas, sound money.

your deal about cost of living increases..., technology is supposed to increase quality of life, either through lower prices or better goods. since we've delved into economics let me post the 5 points on inflation for people not in the political forum.

1. By committing itself to an inflationary or deflationary policy a government does not promote the public welfare, the commonweal, or the interests of the whole nation. It merely favors one or several groups of the population at the expense of other groups.

2. It is impossible to know in advance which group will be favored by a definite inflationary or deflationary measure and to what extent. These effects depend on the whole complex of the market data involved. They also depend largely on the speed of the inflationary or deflationary movements and may be completely reversed with the progress of these movements.

3. At any rate, an expansion results in misinvestment of capital and over-consumption. It leaves the nation as a whole poorer, not richer.

4. Continued inflation must finally end in the crack-up boom, the complete breakdown of the currency system.

5. Deflationary policy is costly for the treasury and unpopular with the masses. But inflationary policy is a boon for the treasury and very popular with the ignorant. Practically, the danger of deflation is but slight and the danger of inflation tremendous.

and now the Chinese central bank is looking at when would be a good time to decouple from the dollar. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-central-bank-chief-yuan-policy-to-change-2010-03-07?dist=beforebell

to the OP. Cairo Il is ~30 mins away and know a few people my age from there too.... it was to be a great hub of commerce ...even 40 years ago, but .. the riots/unrest caused it to collapse prolly as much as anything else. the town i live in has been stagnant as far as official population counts for about 20 years

[mustang84]

I was just going to ask you where you were. So, if you had to pick, do you like Phoenix or Denver better? You can only pick just one.

Back to OP...I didn't know Saint Louis and Cleveland were coming back. They have decent suburbs, I hear. I've been to some St. Louis suburbs, but never to the Cleveland area. Yes, some of those towns like Flint seem to be God-forsaken.

I know Pittsburgh has indeed come back. So many QOL surveys indicate this. The only problem is that I'm not crazy about cold weather and a gray winter.

Interestingly enough, places like Charlotte and Atlanta are feeling the pinch right now. These were veritable engines. I'm sure they will come back. However, for now, their previous unbridled optimism (and overbuilding) is causing them some pain.

I thought I had read something one time about Cleveland working to redevelop its inner city areas, although checking the population chart they are still losing people like a sieve.

I can attest to the Quad Cities and St. Louis though, having been to both. Davenport is back above 100K and Moline is in the process of revitalizing itself. Rock Island is still pretty rough. They are building a new high speed rail that will connect the Quad Cities to Chicago, so that should bring more investment.

St. Louis is coming around. The visitor center still recommends avoiding Kings Highway, but the downtown and midtown areas have undergone gentrification and many are choosing to move back into the city. In 2008, St. Louis proper increased its population for the first time since the 1950 census.

[mustang84]

to the OP. Cairo Il is ~30 mins away and know a few people my age from there too.... it was to be a great hub of commerce ...even 40 years ago, but .. the riots/unrest caused it to collapse prolly as much as anything else. the town i live in has been stagnant as far as official population counts for about 20 years

Didn't the flood of '93 also do Cairo in pretty badly? I thought I heard there was talk of moving the entire city at one time.

Helena, Arkansas is another river town that has been hit hard. 41% of the remaining population lives below the poverty line, and it has one of the highest crime rates in the nation for a city its size.

Edited March 10, 2010 by mustang84

[trinacriabob]

St. Louis is coming around. The visitor center still recommends avoiding Kings Highway

I remember that, for a U of I studio project, we had to go to St. Louis.

My verdict:

East St. Louis - NO (we were driving around there because the project focused on redevelopment and were urged to leave by some locals who seemed to be cautioning us)

Lake St. Louis - YES (very nice suburb to the west)

"The Hill" - DEFINITELY (it's their "Little Italy"...and there is some good food to be had)

Edited March 10, 2010 by trinacriabob

[loki]

Didn't the flood of '93 also do Cairo in pretty badly? I thought I heard there was talk of moving the entire city at one time.

Helena, Arkansas is another river town that has been hit hard. 41% of the remaining population lives below the poverty line, and it has one of the highest crime rates in the nation for a city its size.

well.. i was 10 then. so my recollection of it is not great, but i don't think it was so bad down there, mainly cause of how flat most of south IL (lessening the height) and suppsoedly that flood wasn't too bad after cairo cause of the normal increase of volume added by the ohio.

but i could take a pic of our flood wall.. it has it marked how high that flood crested. cairo may have a similar mark somewhere since it's levied all around itself.

never heard of helena... but by the looks of the map, if it had easy interstate access, it prolly would have been like my town 41%--wiki sas it has ~15K residents put it roughly what my town would be if it lost 50% of it population.

[regfootball]

Manufacturing should be a large part of a 21st Century economy, though (like it is in the third world!). Like Drew said, we are cutting the legs out from under ourselves.

if we as a country lose our ability to make $h!, it weakens us from a national security at some point as nations will catch us with our pants down.

just like why we subsidize food and agriculture. the last thing we want is for us to lose the ability to make our own food, and have to buy all our food elsewhere. And wallah, the other nation is control of us.

I am a product of the big real estate bust but what follows is not about that, a guy i worked with when we both got unemp. he latched on to a position with a 'startup company'.

Ok, not really a startup in the true sense of the world. Through a connection of his wife's, he was given a chance to be a part of a cost saving endeavor for a quite well to do big cat.

Said big cat had been expanding an office for one of his businesses and was not pleased with the amount of $$$ it was going to require to furnish the place. Said person had experience in overseas manufacturing and product development....didn't want to pay for something here so he decided to start a subcompany that would make and sell office systems and furniture. The only goal of this endeavor was merely to make duplicates of what is on the market now but simply to make knockoffs, make them in China, ship it back here, undercut the long established competition (decades in business), and do that.

I actually got invited to look at some of the prototypes. There was some flaws but clearly it is within their capability to sell the product they are making.

The ONLY reason they have the chance to even gain entry or to exist here is due to the imbalance in labor. There is no ability for this start up to produce a better product right now, or have better service support and distribution. The ONLY competitive advantage is the cheap labor overseas.

The theory then is what? We have to move on to other specialized things that we can do and that they conceivably can't and therefore it all evens out and everything is hunky dory?

DO Y'ALL KNOW HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE IN CHINA than here? It's an endless buffet of cheap labor that we have no ability to offset in any way, shape or form.

So, to recap, once this stuff starts to sell, then the other established companies are left cutting staff and there are no jobs with the new startup to replace them.

Those who have lived high on the hog off of computers and internet, the days of reckoning keep coming. Another friend in IT is losing his job soon (he gets actual lead time before his last day!) due to outsourcing (to Canada of all places)........I also know of someone who lost IT outsourcing to India last year. I met a nice neighbor at the kids playground one day last summer who was an engineer with a local company as a contractor and his work got outsourced overseas and guess what....since he contracted he didn't think he would be able to get unemployment. He was a majority of his family's income and most certainly they were probably going to be forced out. He had no immediate prospects to help keep his family afloat.

Tonight I had a couple with some ex coworkers. My buddy told me the story of how his dad provided for his family (engineer degree but was never got professional certification and therefore was mostly a technical specialist), paid for the house, the cars, the health care, taxes, the education, on one salary and were able to do saving and investing. Things you would not be able to do anymore because for one, the pay for that job would be horse$h!, and two, the job wouldn't exist probably either because it would probably be outsourced so some exec could be bonused for the 'cost savings' of outsourcing. Never mind that the outsourcing probably created new hassles and inefficiencies and reduced quality because of the problems of language, time change, being remote, all that.

This is supposed to make it better?

We're losing all these jobs, there is nothing to replace it.

The thing about computers, IT, 'technology', those things had their heyday where they siphoned so much cash off the top of companies money flow for so long. The value that computers and technology has brought to companies in the past was worth it, but we've really crossed a threshold now where computers and software and technology is as much of a liability and overhead and cash drain on businesses as anything. That is where part of the desire to outsource comes from, but it also says to me that companies are getting smart and realizing that the supposed productivity gains of trying to invest so much in all of that constantly is becoming a questionable business proposition. I would guess the business cases to justify the amount and level of technology based functions and hardware are getting tougher and tougher to prove. Irregardless, I only see the market for the outsourcing in that industry increasing, and to be honest there is no emerging subset of the economy that can offset the losses in that sector.

And POOF, another industry goes away.. We used to make consumer electronics here. What replaced that?

Interesting thing to ponder. My sister graduated with an engineering degree in the late 80's and IIRC she started in the job market at something over or close to 40 grand.

The thing is almost 25 years later is she graduated with the same degree and took the same job she probably would still only get the 40 or close to it as starting pay.

This is the kind of thing O-boi is making points on. WE'RE NOT MAKING WHAT WE USED TO.

I can easily make a list of 100 people I know who are making a bunch less than they did a few years ago. I would have to struggle to make a list of 10-15 people I know who I know for sure are making more now than they did 3-5 years ago.

Edited March 10, 2010 by regfootball

[ocnblu]

I made less in 2009 than I did in 2008. And everything went up in price.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ocnblu

[ZL-1]

Get back to me when the Chinese are buying as much from us as we are from them.

International trade has to do with relative economic advantages/disadvantages, not with a zero trade balance between trading parties.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ZL-1

[67impss]

I made less in 2009 than I did in 2008. And everything went up in price.

Understood I'm making less now than I made in 1980 and only worked 3/4ths of 1980 but now have the added cost of a wife an adult daughter & two granddaughters living with me. In 1980 I was living large bought my first & only new car to date. Bought my first house now I'm renting from Mom and missing payments( ) I'm not crying but this isn't the way things have worked since "Hooverville" here in Dayton OH we only have the DmaX plant in Moraine and TennaCo bought an old Delphi plant in Kettering and Vandalia has somthing going on with a new company the only Dayton proper plant running is a old Delphi plant & it may enploye 30 the owner was building fiber springs for the 'vette I believe.Dayton once had a Pop. of 290K now more like 150K with no end in sight hell even NCR a Dayton startup has left for Atlanta.

[Drew Dowdell]

International trade has to do with relative economic advantages/disadvantages, not with a zero trade balance between trading parties.

Ya know, I'd be ok with that if it meant that China was buying raw materials from us, fashioning them into something and then selling the finished product back to us. That's trade.

Right now, our biggest export is dollars.

[the_yellow_dart]

They get those raw materials from us. Unfortunately I don't think they pay enough for raw materials - Canada should be richer than it is.

[pow]

Interesting article on the state of manufacturing in the US...

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-manufacturing10-2010mar10,0,5701749.story?page=1

[trinacriabob]

A little more back on topic...

...what is really sad is the number of grand movie theaters that have fallen into disrepair as a result of these cities going sour. Even in smaller northern/central California towns, there are beautiful Spanish Colonial or quasi-Moorish movie houses in their small downtowns that are shuttered or have a less than optimal use. They all look "tall enough" to have a balcony...something you will never see in a new movie theater...and their detailing is something from an era gone by. This saddens me. I think the last vibrant icon of this era (that I'm aware of) is the Fox Westwood Village in the area right around UCLA. This is an incredible movie house and I saw a James Bond movie there once shortly after it was released! It has a balcony.

[Camino LS6]

re: the original post: The cost of globalism in pictures.

Face it people, the empire is dead and we have killed it.

When those at the top begin to feel it, it will be too late to fix it.

[the_yellow_dart]

A little more back on topic...

...what is really sad is the number of grand movie theaters that have fallen into disrepair as a result of these cities going sour. Even in smaller northern/central California towns, there are beautiful Spanish Colonial or quasi-Moorish movie houses in their small downtowns that are shuttered or have a less than optimal use. They all look "tall enough" to have a balcony...something you will never see in a new movie theater...and their detailing is something from an era gone by. This saddens me. I think the last vibrant icon of this era (that I'm aware of) is the Fox Westwood Village in the area right around UCLA. This is an incredible movie house and I saw a James Bond movie there once shortly after it was released! It has a balcony.

There was a theatre like this in the downtown of the city I grew up in. The downtown had crumbled around it and eventually it closed. Thankfully they did find a good use for it - the university campus that moved in put two lecture halls in there (one in each cinema).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A mobile labor force is part of what makes the US such a great (and rich) country. Eventually these cities will be largely demolished like Detroit is planning to do in the near future.

And does anyone think the country is actually worse off for having these anachronisms fade into the sunset?

Yes.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If you include all American's in that average... sure we're much richer.

Remove the top 400 wealthiest who's wealth has increase 1700% since 1970... and no, we're all actually poorer.

As always, thank you for putting it into perspective.

As a country, we're MUCH better off. As a people, conditions continue to decline and money continues to evaporate.

Too many 'new age idealists' are tied up in THE OVER ALL, SOUND BITE READY GLOSSY AMERICA = ONE THING picture painted by Wall Street. The reality of the situation is very, very different.

Edited March 15, 2010 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

OK, this is just disconnected from reality. How many people would actually rather live in the 70s with no Internet or cell phones or modern health technology?

Do those things contribute to or positively affect quality of life?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You just disconnected from the topic.

The topic is that real wages for average Americans (not those in the top 1%) have stagnated or declined in the past 30 years. This has nothing to do with cell phones or internet.

Add to that the average amount of debt of thee typical american household is deirectly proportional to productivity gain and what wages SHOULD be had the top 1% not capped them.

In laymens terms; Productivity has increased, the top 1% has profited heavily from that and the cost of living has increased because of this. Yet the standard of living has decreased because instead of rewarding employees for increased productivity, the top 1% failed to pass on the money (it has been used to build wealth and conglomerates) The stagnated wages result in increased debt as the lower classes try to MAINTAIN their standard of living. The top 1% turns around and profits on that once aagain by EXTENDING a line of credit and charging interest.

So... congrats, you now have more you can buy but less money to buy it with. For all of that... there's Mastercard.... so you can transfer even more of your diminishing wealth to the investor class.

LOL, so perfect!

[FAPTurbo]

My impression of Cleveland was that it was still in decline. Recently named 'most miserable city in America' by a Forbes study.

Surprisingly (or not) these two videos are relevant to the two main topics in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Guys, you're only looking at one side of the coin. You're falling into the propaganda trap of protectionists who profit from stifling trade, namely making a sob story out of people who lose their jobs directly to foreign competition. But the gains to everyone else are at least as much as the losses to that special interest group, but it's spread out across the whole country as incremental improvement for millions of people.

And you're also assuming that putting random Americans out of work through machines or other Americans in another part of the country is somehow superior to the same exact phenomenon taking those jobs overseas.

Have you ever been downsized?

I've watched my community wither and die because of Wal-Mart. It's not propaganda, it's real.

Prime example: Fieldcrest Cannon in Kannapolis NC was the largest textile mill in the world. When Wal-Mart blew up, they urged Pillowtex (The then parent company) to outsource. Pillowtex refused and subsequently went bankrupt in 2003.

The loss: thousands of good paying jobs.

The "gain": NC Research Campus Now riddle me this: How the hell are people that barely have a HS education going to work on a medical research campus?

[Satty]

Cincinnati fails at not sucking.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Sigh. Taking an economics course would do you good, Olds. You're not following the chain of how goods get produced carefully enough. You're citing the laughable idea that competition is a race to the bottom. This has been disproved time and time again, as evidenced by the vast riches available today at incredibly low prices, and we have every reason to expect the bounty to exponentially increase unless people like you usher in a more command and control path to poverty. The next step in your rhetoric is North Korea, and that's not even hyperbole. I give you Kim Jong Il at a glorious people's fertilizer factory:

Economics courses are WHERE the problem (disconnect) lies.

I was a business major, I took a lot of economics courses, and everything is skewed into black and white. Want a figure for unemployment? Just count the people who are actively LOOKING for jobs in the last 6 months, not the people who have given up. (How flawed is that?) Want a measure for GDP? Go ahead and count production from businesses that take the profit elsewhere. It's too generic and not accurate enough.

The real measure of wealth is STANDARD OF LIVING. I have a lot of experience in Political Sociology as well (again, a major) and *any* sociologist will tell you that our standard of living is RAPIDLY declining because of the destruction of the middle class.

[Camino LS6]

It's over, Rover.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

What on earth are you talking about? US dollars go to Chinese suppliers who make the cheap components for the cheap DVD player. Then what happens? The Apocalypse? No, those dollars are spent, either directly in the US or domestically in China for some other good, and those dollars can again make their way to the US, and this process is repeated ad infinitum. If you're so hung up on the accounting aspects of trade deficits and job statistics based on geographical boundaries, then in the long run the overall American employment picture is the same, but in the long run the American consumer is benefited! Because that DVD player is now cheaper. Not to mention the Chinese workers are also made richer, but you don't seem to care about that. You're trapped looking at very selective time windows, Olds.

Is that why the Chinese hold so much of our money?

That's right, because they produced a better product and won. I'm so sad I'm forced to only choose among superior products.

You really don't think an american electronics industry could BEST a $20 Wal-Mart DVD player? Japan didn't "win" anything, Japan used bad trading practices to TAKE OVER an industry that it knew had HUGE growth potential.

All of that would be true if the Chinese were actually buying anything that we export. The won't and don't. They won't even buy Buicks made in the U.S. ... and they LOVE Buicks.

We've cut off the roots of the economy(the manufacturing base). We're watching the trunk die (the middle class). Yet you think the tree will continue to bare fruit forever for the rich.

Excellent analogy... But it will (unfortunately) The rich are so diversified now with access to make money around the globe through free trade that THEY will survive. Does our recession hurt them? Sure. But it damn sure ain't gonna kill 'em. Hell, I've even read marketing media now that suggests companies shift their ad dollars to the top 5% of the population and try to sustain themselves on THAT revenue alone, effectively cutting out the lower class and leaving it to rot. (I think this will eventually happen as prices are increasing and images are being elevated even for 'plebeian' brands)

"Suppose the average American worker earns twenty dollars per hour while the average Chinese worker earns just two dollars per hour. Won’t free trade make it impossible to defend the higher American wage? Won’t there instead be a leveling down until, say, both American and Chinese workers earn eleven dollars per hour? The answer, once again, is no."

So, you're saying that $25-30K for a college degree job hasn't been the "leveling down" of the middle class? You're asserting that going from $15/hour in a textile plant with full benefits to $6.50 an hour with no benefits at Wal-Mart hasn't been a leveling down of the lower class?

The labor movement, like it or not, is what made the american middle class. Free Trade (and the WTO) undermined the labor movement because companies no longer had to increase pay for increased productivity. Companies could no just outsource the work to a sweat shop. So, your well paid job gets outsourced and you get a $h!ty gas station gig. There's your "leveling". And what's worse; because of this outsourcing, the WTO has managed to bust most of the big american unions (or make their membership so low that they're just 'along for the ride') The UAW was the LAST exception to the rule and IMO, was the LAST leg of the labor movement. Now that the UAW has been sedated, things will only get worse.

You misrepresent me. I am not protectionist. I'm all for free trade... as long as it's truly free and not one way like it is now. When Oshwa and Kansas City are running 3rd shift to be able to supply Buicks to China, then we'll have free trade. When the trade picture with China is not 296b imported to 69b exported,and something more even, then call me.

Exactly... There is no such thing as FREE TRADE. There is, however, the bleeding of america.

Edited March 15, 2010 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[loki]

FOG - curious if you read the 5 points about inflation deflation i posted?

I do think all these "U.N." offshoots have caused more trouble than what it's been worth. say, the IMF, trying to be the world's central bank, what a horrible idea.

[trinacriabob]

Today is my 1 yr anniv. at my current client in Chandler, AZ..contract extended through September, so I'll still be here a while.

Yeah...Pittsburgh is still on my radar. The area has a lot of appeal to me.

Re Chandler - I guess that means you will be able to eat at Daphne's another time or two.

Pittsburgh seems to be an attractive city. I like to look at MLS sites and there are a lot of nice homes in PIT... not exactly bargains (nor are the property taxes), but reasonable enough.

[regfootball]

Have you ever been downsized?

I've watched my community wither and die because of Wal-Mart. It's not propaganda, it's real.

Prime example: Fieldcrest Cannon in Kannapolis NC was the largest textile mill in the world. When Wal-Mart blew up, they urged Pillowtex (The then parent company) to outsource. Pillowtex refused and subsequently went bankrupt in 2003.

The loss: thousands of good paying jobs.

The "gain": NC Research Campus Now riddle me this: How the hell are people that barely have a HS education going to work on a medical research campus?

it gets old after the third or fourth time but they keep finding new ways to downsize ya i am finding......

[Drew Dowdell]

Add to that the average amount of debt of thee typical american household is deirectly proportional to productivity gain and what wages SHOULD be had the top 1% not capped them.

In laymens terms; Productivity has increased, the top 1% has profited heavily from that and the cost of living has increased because of this. Yet the standard of living has decreased because instead of rewarding employees for increased productivity, the top 1% failed to pass on the money (it has been used to build wealth and conglomerates) The stagnated wages result in increased debt as the lower classes try to MAINTAIN their standard of living. The top 1% turns around and profits on that once aagain by EXTENDING a line of credit and charging interest.

So wait.... are you suggesting that trickledown/horse and sparrow/supplyside economics doesn't work?! HERETIC!!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

Pittsburgh seems to be an attractive city. I like to look at MLS sites and there are a lot of nice homes in PIT... not exactly bargains (nor are the property taxes), but reasonable enough.

Just need to know where to look. There are lots of bargains in this city.

[trinacriabob]

Just need to know where to look. There are lots of bargains in this city.

My range of what I like in real estate is a little narrow (minded). What I really like is 1988 to 1996 (+/-) "transitional" style...not exactly traditional with all the symmetry, but with mostly hip roofs, a lot of brick, at least 8:12 roof pitch, and the front of the house (rooms, entry, garage) on different masses. Sounds complicated, but this is what they still build a lot of in the suburbs of Houston, for example. There was some of this going on in Atlanta, too, and the stucco (a departure for the South) didn't look that bad. They also built this style in Seattle and Portland during the same period, with less brick or stone, and definitely not stucco because of the constant moisture. I like the same kind of thing in townhomes, except that they would put a 2-car garage underneath and then a person walks up to the entry on level 2. The bedrooms would be on level 3.

I don't like older homes at all and don't like the new wave into the craftsman/bungalow look. The PNW switched over to craftsman style (almost exclusively) in the late 90s.

Drew, I've seen some of the "inventory" I like, and at a price I like, in some PIT suburbs...with most of that stuff showing up in Adams Township on searches (I have no clue if that's good or bad) and other places that end with the word "township." I actually prefer to live in the suburbs...it's a lot quieter, so, I lived in the north suburbs of Atlanta and the East Side (across the lake and the bridges) in Seattle. I find that people who are just as interesting and smart live in the suburbs, so I don't mind it at all, despite the fact that a lot of people bristle at the thought of living in suburbia.

Back on topic, the topic of the life cycle of urban and metro areas is always an area of fascination...so is the "shelf life" of what is cool and uncool in residential architecture...

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh geez, I'd need a photo example....

Adams township isn't bad. You can also look at almost anything with the suffix "Hills" For example, we live in Forest Hills. Albert's parents live in Penn Hills.

[trinacriabob]

Oh geez, I'd need a photo example....

Adams township isn't bad. You can also look at almost anything with the suffix "Hills" For example, we live in Forest Hills. Albert's parents live in Penn Hills.

As long as these listings are active, here are some examples:

Houston area - really like the all-brick one-story ranches like this:

Brick one story home

Pittsburgh area - townhomes with brick that look like this:

Townhome, 3 -level, mostly brick and 2-car garage

Atlanta area - one-story with stucco, though not as nice as others I've seen - the angled door is kind of funky:

One story north suburbs of Atlanta home

Pacific Northwest - a lot of "transitional" styled homes

One story PNW home with more siding than brick

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to. Prices from 175K to 275K +/-, cheapest in Houston, most expensive in PNW

[Robert Hall]

I need to do another fact-finding trip to the PGH area next time I come back to visit family in Ohio...some of the research I've done so far is suburban areas of Robinson Township and Moon Township...towards the West, the airport, and Rt 22 would work well for me. Not sure about the commute from there into the downtown or other cube-farm centric areas.

Still going to be in AZ for a while, not sure of my next destination, but W. PA is definitely high on the list.

[Robert Hall]

As long as these listings are active, here are some examples:

Houston area - really like the all-brick one-story ranches like this:

Brick one story home

Pittsburgh area - townhomes with brick that look like this:

Townhome, 3 -level, mostly brick and 2-car garage

Atlanta area - one-story with stucco, though not as nice as others I've seen - the angled door is kind of funky:

One story north suburbs of Atlanta home

Pacific Northwest - a lot of "transitional" styled homes

One story PNW home with more siding than brick

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to. Prices from 175K to 275K +/-, cheapest in Houston, most expensive in PNW

Lots of interesting houses there...

This is the kind of place I was looking closely at in the Denver burbs 3 years ago---

Highlands Ranch homes for sale

2 story, basement, 3 car garage, small lot...anywhere from $300-450k depending on the 'burb. Built in the '90s. Lots of ideas on how I'd finish the basement.

[Drew Dowdell]

Wexford, Cranberry, Upper St. Clair, Robbinson Twp., Monroeville *slightly older*,

$300k will get you a new, large, McMansion in Pittsburgh... just as a point of reference. That townhouse seller is dreaming asking $250k.

Myself, I prefer older homes. My own house was built in 1939

[Robert Hall]

Wexford, Cranberry, Upper St. Clair, Robbinson Twp., Monroeville *slightly older*,

$300k will get you a new, large, McMansion in Pittsburgh... just as a point of reference.

Myself, I prefer older homes. My own house was built in 1939

I am living in a 1952 vintage house now...some things just absolutely drive me nuts about older houses--the tiny closets, the lack of power outlets (or poorly placed outlets), tiny garages (or carports as are common in Phoenix--I hate carports)...walls that are too thick for wi-fi to penetrate..

I do like brick, though.

I lived in this house in Steubenville, Oh until age 10...was from 1946, and the driveway slopes down to a 1 car garage..

Edited March 15, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[trinacriabob]

Lots of interesting houses there...

This is the kind of place I was looking closely at in the Denver burbs 3 years ago---

Highlands Ranch homes for sale

2 story, basement, 3 car garage, small lot...anywhere from $300-450k depending on the 'burb. Built in the '90s. Lots of ideas on how I'd finish the basement.

Rob, I like that area, but I don't like all the gables in the roofline. I prefer more hip roofs and maybe some gables thrown in. When I was in Ken Caryl Ranch in the mid 90s, I saw a lot of nice homes I liked...and many of them had a lot of brick/stone...

[Robert Hall]

Rob, I like that area, but I don't like all the gables in the roofline. I prefer more hip roofs and maybe some gables thrown in. When I was in Ken Caryl Ranch in the mid 90s, I saw a lot of nice homes I liked...and many of them had a lot of brick/stone...

Yeah, nice area out there...parents of some friends live in Ken Caryl. Lots of homes w/ stone facings..I like the rough-hewn stone look.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[trinacriabob]

$300k will get you a new, large, McMansion in Pittsburgh... just as a point of reference. That townhouse seller is dreaming asking $250k.

Wow, so it's overpriced...in a nice suburb of Seattle, that would be one very expensive townhome. In a nice suburb of San Francisco (minus brick), that would be in nosebleed territory.

[Robert Hall]

Wow, so it's overpriced...in a nice suburb of Seattle, that would be one very expensive townhome. In a nice suburb of San Francisco (minus brick), that would be in nosebleed territory.

In the SF Bay area $300k would probably get you a 500sq ft 1 room closet.

$300k out in the Phoenix 'burbs currently can buy a very nice place, something that was 400-600k a few years ago.

The Bay Area real estate pricing is in it's own crazy world, though...about 5 years ago a buddy of mine sold his dumpy bungalow that was near downtown San Jose and moved into a split level ranch out in the Blossom Hill area of SJ...nothing special, a rather run down looking neighborhood, but he was happy at the bargain he got for $575k...

Edited March 15, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[trinacriabob]

The Bay Area real estate pricing is in it's own crazy world, though...about 5 years ago a buddy of mine sold his dumpy bungalow that was near downtown San Jose and moved into a split level ranch out in the Blossom Hill area of SJ...nothing special, a rather run down looking neighborhood, but he was happy at the bargain he got for $575k...

People can have the Bay Area...it's not that compelling to live there...one can go there on vacation twice a year, take the pictures and tours they want, and go home...

A friend of mine relocated from LA to Las Vegas. I don't care for it, but she's made a nice life for herself there and doesn't at all partake in Las Vegas decadence. I'm going for Memorial Day. Most people I know who left California have no desire to go back.

The erosion of the middle class and the "have/have not" problem in SF, SJ, LA and SD is kind of scary.

[Drew Dowdell]

Wow, so it's overpriced...in a nice suburb of Seattle, that would be one very expensive townhome. In a nice suburb of San Francisco (minus brick), that would be in nosebleed territory.

My guess is they're asking $250k and hoping that someone will offer $220k.

[the_yellow_dart]

I just bought a new home 4 months ago. House this time - was in a condo before.

Moved from the downtown core (condo) to the inner suburbs (still well within the city of Toronto).

Sold the ~600 sq ft condo for $205k. Bought the ~1500 sq ft house built in 1945 for $242k.

Had to get some electrical work done (up the service from 60 amp to 100), but other than that everything was fine. The electrical work only had to be done because my house insurance insisted on it. It was hard enough to find one that was okay with knob and tube, so the upgrade was okay with me.

[Intrepidation]

I liek older houses...they have character and the goth style houses have lots of intricate detailing. With that said, they also tend to feel a bit "small" and dark. I love modern homes because they're designed to be sleek, open, airy, warm.

[trinacriabob]

I liek older houses...they have character and the goth style houses have lots of intricate detailing. With that said, they also tend to feel a bit "small" and dark. I love modern homes because they're designed to be sleek, open, airy, warm.

Agreed.

That's right...they have better craftsmanship and detailing, but I don't like how closed, dark and musty they feel. I remember how much I used to hate what they called the "Spanish charmer" small stucco homes in Los Angeles...could just be a realtor term, don't know...but it was "way cool" to buy one of these for a small fortune and then spend another small fortune to fix it up. My thought: get a nice, airy newer home out in the 'burbs, come to L.A. when you need to, and pocket the difference.

New(er) homes are airy, have lots of light, and amenities like separated w.c.s, walk-in closets, skylights, kitchen islands and on and on. For day-in day-out living, I much prefer that.

[trinacriabob]

I just bought a new home 4 months ago. House this time - was in a condo before.

Sold the ~600 sq ft condo for $205k. Bought the ~1500 sq ft house built in 1945 for $242k.

Congrats, TYD! What a great city; however, I have always worried about living someplace that's cold since I wasn't raised in it.

I might have posted along these lines before, but I really like parts of Woodbridge-Toronto. It's where all the Italians that "assimilated" moved, so I might like that. There were some great places to eat - yes, in strip malls. Also, I think I might like Mississagua (sp). The only reason I know about it is that I located a childhood friend there that I befriended while our families were in Europe. It seems very multi-cultural.

Still, if I had to pick a suburb of a major Canadian city, it would be Saint Jerome, QC, about 28 miles (45 km) north of Montreal. I like it because it is where the metro area thins out as one heads into the Laurentians (mountains north of Montreal). It's Francophone, so I would be immersed really quickly. Regardless, I don't think I could handle the cold...or I would have to spend 4 months in FL as a "snowbird."

It must be great to more than double your sq. ft. for an additional $37K.

[Robert Hall]

Agreed.

That's right...they have better craftsmanship and detailing, but I don't like how closed, dark and musty they feel. I remember how much I used to hate what they called the "Spanish charmer" small stucco homes in Los Angeles...could just be a realtor term, don't know...but it was "way cool" to buy one of these for a small fortune and then spend another small fortune to fix it up. My thought: get a nice, airy newer home out in the 'burbs, come to L.A. when you need to, and pocket the difference.

New(er) homes are airy, have lots of light, and amenities like separated w.c.s, walk-in closets, skylights, kitchen islands and on and on. For day-in day-out living, I much prefer that.

+1.

Ya....I've experienced living in a 150+ yr old home (my family's country place in Ohio). Rooms that aren't quite square, floors that aren't level, electricity that was added on, tiny kitchen, bathrooms that were added on..., hand-blown glass windows that are wavy, thick sandstone outside walls, slate roof..better though than the 175+ yr old guest house (i.e. log cabin). The basement is like an ancient stone cave. The garages are detatched 'coach houses' that originally held horse carriages... the barn has room for 10 or so horses (now has Mustangs, Cougars, and a Panther).

It certainly has it's charm, but it's very high maintenance and isolated (Ohio Amish country).

Modern, spacious, dull and suburban works for me..

[vonVeezelsnider]

$300k will get you a new, large, McMansion in Pittsburgh... just as a point of reference. That townhouse seller is dreaming asking $250k.

Man oh man real estate in the US is cheap lately. This is about the maximum that 300k buys you in Calgary:

http://crel.com/view_listing.php?listing=mls&id=C3404891

I love older houses, especially in the smaller towns surrounding the city. Much better lifestyle and not so cookie-cutter.