Failed American Cities

[mustang84]

This has always been of interest to me. Of course Detroit and Flint are the famous ones, but scattered throughout the Midwest and Great Lakes states are smaller cities that were once heavy on industry and now empty shells. Some places like the Quad Cities, St. Louis, and Cleveland are making a comeback, while others like the ones listed below continue to deteriorate.

Gary, Indiana - founded in 1906 by US Steel Corporation, it was Indiana's 2nd largest city until changing demographics, steel layoffs, and rising crime sent almost half of the population packing. Today it has just under 100,000 people.

Gary in the early 60's

---------

East St. Louis, Illinois - In the shadow of the Gateway Arch, East SL is regarded as one of the most dangerous cities in America. It's population is now 28,000...1/3 of its 1950 peak.

---------

Harvey, Illinois - An inner-ring Chicago suburb. Famous for the Dixie Square Mall, where the mall chase scene in Blues Brothers was filmed. The mall closed in 1979, and the city has dwindled down to 30,000.

Edited March 9, 2010 by mustang84

[Drew Dowdell]

Thank you globalization.

Folks, this is why crap is so much cheaper at Target/Walmart/Kohls.

[CSpec]

A mobile labor force is part of what makes the US such a great (and rich) country. Eventually these cities will be largely demolished like Detroit is planning to do in the near future.

And does anyone think the country is actually worse off for having these anachronisms fade into the sunset?

[the_yellow_dart]

Don't forget:

- Niagara Falls, NY

- Scranton, PA

- Cairo, IL

[balthazar]

^ Maybe not, specifically..., but a great quantity of people think the country is much worse off for these cities having BECOME anachronisms.

[Drew Dowdell]

A mobile labor force is part of what makes the US such a great (and rich) country. Eventually these cities will be largely demolished like Detroit is planning to do in the near future.

And does anyone think the country is actually worse off for having these anachronisms fade into the sunset?

Yes. 10% official unemployement, closer to 17% actual unemployment/underemployment.

1 job for every 6 job seekers.

Where did all the jobs go?

[balthazar]

The country is relatively rich, but getting poorer, and this is a big contributor.

[Drew Dowdell]

The country is relatively rich, but getting poorer, and this is a big contributor.

Are we? Or do we just feel relatively rich because we're in debt more than anyone else but choose to ignore it.

[Robert Hall]

As the Rust Belt cities have declined over the last 30+ years, there has been a great outmigration to growing places in the South, Southwest, and West. Witness the population booms in states such as Florida, Texas, Arizona, Nevada etc.

It's all part of the deindustrialization of America...it is what it is.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[CSpec]

You guys are looking at time windows that are too short. The rust belt has been in steady decline since the 1950s, while unemployment is high at the moment while resources shift around. The reason for the industrial decline is that the labor intensive, educationless work became very cost ineffective in this country compared to emerging hellholes around the globe. We get those durable goods for much cheaper, and those new trading partners engage the US in the sorts of goods we export. And we're all much richer as a result.

[Robert Hall]

If you think the country was better off in the 50s, you're nuts.

I think some people have an idealised view of the '50s based on old black & white TV shows. Happy white people, picket fences, giant cars, men with hats and suits..

[Drew Dowdell]

You guys are looking at time windows that are too short. The rust belt has been in steady decline since the 1950s, while unemployment is high at the moment while resources shift around. The reason for the industrial decline is that the labor intensive, educationless work became very cost ineffective in this country compared to emerging hellholes around the globe. We get those durable goods for much cheaper, and those new trading partners engage the US in the sorts of goods we export. And we're all much richer as a result.

If you include all American's in that average... sure we're much richer.

Remove the top 400 wealthiest who's wealth has increase 1700% since 1970... and no, we're all actually poorer.

[the_yellow_dart]

Also, my favourite, Centralia, PA. That one's not the fault of de-industrialization or globalization though.

[CSpec]

If you include all American's in that average... sure we're much richer.

Remove the top 400 wealthiest who's wealth has increase 1700% since 1970... and no, we're all actually poorer.

OK, this is just disconnected from reality. How many people would actually rather live in the 70s with no Internet or cell phones or modern health technology?

[Drew Dowdell]

OK, this is just disconnected from reality. How many people would actually rather live in the 70s with no Internet or cell phones or modern health technology?

You just disconnected from the topic.

The topic is that real wages for average Americans (not those in the top 1%) have stagnated or declined in the past 30 years. This has nothing to do with cell phones or internet.

So... congrats, you now have more you can buy but less money to buy it with. For all of that... there's Mastercard.... so you can transfer even more of your diminishing wealth to the investor class.

[CSpec]

You know, I'm rarely speechless, but this is one of those times. Maybe you should buy a summer house in Pyongyang, Olds.

[Drew Dowdell]

Haha! Really?

Maybe I can pick up Henry Ford's old place. For all of his other baggage with minorities, one of the things Henry Ford understood was that his employees were also his customer.

How do U.S. corporations expect to thrive if they outsource everything but the board of directors and some secretaries? If there are only boards of directors, a few service people, and all the factories are over seas, who is left to buy the products?

17% unemployed/underemployed. In a "consumer economy", how do you expect the economy to work when 17% can't ..well... consume?

We like to make fun of Ross Perot, but he had a point about that "Giant Sucking Sound" during the NAFTA debates.

[CSpec]

How many horse and buggy makers did Henry put out of business? Are we poorer as a result?

[regfootball]

O-boi is hitting lots of nails on the head here.

Stupid are the people that think we can exist only as a 'service economy', and just on intellectual properties, consulting, non profit agenda groups, paper pushing, marketing, communications, financing, insurance, investments.

Part of the economy needs to be a vibrant manufacturing sector, building things, making things as well.

I won't even get into the class warfare stuff, but yeah, 90% of the people in this country have less earnings and wealth and ability to prosper these days.

Free trade as a pure ideal is a nice idea but we are getting owned as a nation by whoring out our economy to all the other nations. Our top 1-2% of people who live her profit financially from it, the rest of us end up getting ass fked because of it.

[Drew Dowdell]

How many horse and buggy makers did Henry put out of business? Are we poorer as a result?

Don't care. Those buggie makers could have become Ford employees without relocating to Vietnam. Ford created a LOT more jobs than were destroyed at the buggie makers.... and those who were simple laborers for Ford probably made a LOT more (hey, whaddaya know, they can afford a Car now!) then they ever did as a buggie maker.

[Intrepidation]

Ford created many more jobs for people in the US, which is a big deal. When Wal Mart put smaller companies out of business you can bet your ass it didn't create jobs in the US to manufacture more of it's cheap crap.

[CSpec]

Guys, you're only looking at one side of the coin. You're falling into the propaganda trap of protectionists who profit from stifling trade, namely making a sob story out of people who lose their jobs directly to foreign competition. But the gains to everyone else are at least as much as the losses to that special interest group, but it's spread out across the whole country as incremental improvement for millions of people.

And you're also assuming that putting random Americans out of work through machines or other Americans in another part of the country is somehow superior to the same exact phenomenon taking those jobs overseas.

[Drew Dowdell]

I've been with a company going through the "Walmart transition" where everyone but front office staff and a few fork truck drivers are outsourced to foreign countries. Well over 50 factory workers were laid off even though the company was thriving..... those of us who remained got $250 bonuses and cost of living increases that barely broke 2 percent which was fun because the CPI was almost always up over 2%.

The owners (all one family) got a new house in Palm Beach, S-Class, SL-Class, 5-series, FX45..... and probably wrote all of that off as "business expenses".

So yes.. on average, all the employees were richer. Remove the top 1% earners from the pool, and there were a LOT of poorer people.... on average.

I was also there for the recall when half Chinese the product came back infested with beetles.

[Drew Dowdell]

Guys, you're only looking at one side of the coin. You're falling into the propaganda trap of protectionists who profit from stifling trade, namely making a sob story out of people who lose their jobs directly to foreign competition. But the gains to everyone else are at least as much as the losses to that special interest group, but it's spread out across the whole country as incremental improvement for millions of people.

And you're also assuming that putting random Americans out of work through machines or other Americans in another part of the country is somehow superior to the same exact phenomenon taking those jobs overseas.

The gains to everyone else are that they can now buy crap at Walmart for 75 cents on the dollar compared to what they used to pay..... which is good because unemployment checks don't go quite as far as full salary does. The removal of manufacturing jobs has removed the salary floor for office jobs and thereby depressed pay. You have to accept $30k to work in a gray cube because the only other alternative is flipping burgers.

Again on average we are wealthier than we were before. But remove the top 1% - 2% wealthiest people and on average our wealth has decreased. The wealth has been systematically transferred from the "have somes" to the "have it alls" and the Chinese economy.

We have 30 years of proof of this not working. The evidence is in the pictures at the beginning of this thread.

Replacing American workers with automation is fine as long as the automation is also built by American workers. There will always be job displacement. It's when there is a wholesale migration of jobs out of the country without regard for the economic consequences .

[Drew Dowdell]

Guys, you're only looking at one side of the coin. You're falling into the propaganda trap of protectionists who profit from stifling trade, namely making a sob story out of people who lose their jobs directly to foreign competition. But the gains to everyone else are at least as much as the losses to that special interest group, but it's spread out across the whole country as incremental improvement for millions of people.

And you're also assuming that putting random Americans out of work through machines or other Americans in another part of the country is somehow superior to the same exact phenomenon taking those jobs overseas.

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[balthazar]

^ Well put.

WRT the buggies- a LOT of early car makers had their roots in the buggy industry; that was a transition within the country. Cities did not decay into wastelands related to it. The subsequent auto industry was built in & of this country, and the cities grew related to it. Since, the decline of too many cities just related to the auto industry going offshore / being supplanted by foreigners is direct, obvious & obscene.

Look at it this way, hypothetically. The ports are closed automotively-speaking, population, auto demand & volume is the same. It's 2005 and 15M units are sold. That's a given.

However & instead, Studebaker, Hudson, Packard, Rambler, and dozens of others are still supplying that demand. Factories & suppliers all over, humming with employment. People working, and the private sector continues to drive 2/3rds of the economy, with ease.

How is that worse than today ??

[Intrepidation]

Because we didn't have the iPhone and cheap crap from Wal Mart!

[CSpec]

Sigh. Taking an economics course would do you good, Olds. You're not following the chain of how goods get produced carefully enough. You're citing the laughable idea that competition is a race to the bottom. This has been disproved time and time again, as evidenced by the vast riches available today at incredibly low prices, and we have every reason to expect the bounty to exponentially increase unless people like you usher in a more command and control path to poverty. The next step in your rhetoric is North Korea, and that's not even hyperbole. I give you Kim Jong Il at a glorious people's fertilizer factory:

North Korea has developed its own fertilizer production process called “coal gasification.” The process converts coal from a solid to a gaseous state that is similar to natural gas, and can be converted to ammonia that is used to make fertilizer. North Korea has rich deposits of coal and would otherwise have to import natural gas for fertilizer production.

He praised the complex for “entirely depending on locally available raw resources” and emphasized completion of the gasification process “in a brief span of time,” the report said.

[CSpec]

Look at it this way, hypothetically. The ports are closed automotively-speaking, population, auto demand & volume is the same. It's 2005 and 15M units are sold. That's a given.

However & instead, Studebaker, Hudson, Packard, Rambler, and dozens of others are still supplying that demand. Factories & suppliers all over, humming with employment. People working, and the private sector continues to drive 2/3rds of the economy, with ease.

How is that worse than today ??

Competition is reduced, leading to less innovation for features, quality, and price. Cars today are incredibly reliable and have all sorts of amazing technological features that people in the 70s couldn't even conceive of. There is no doubt that without the Japanese invasion in the 70s the domestic industry today would be vastly inferior.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sigh. Taking an economics course would do you good, Olds. You're not following the chain of how goods get produced carefully enough. You're citing the laughable idea that competition is a race to the bottom. This has been disproved time and time again, as evidenced by the vast riches available today at incredibly low prices, and we have every reason to expect the bounty to exponentially increase unless people like you usher in a more command and control path to poverty. The next step in your rhetoric is North Korea, and that's not even hyperbole. I give you Kim Jong Il at a glorious people's fertilizer factory:

Your statements are too vague to address specifically... other than your completely laughable N. Korea references.

Another Economics course? really? I've taken some. See I know the difference between "price" and "cost".

These vast riches you keep referring to.... you cite price but ignore cost. Yes it's just nifty that the DVD players at Walmart are priced at $20... but what is their cost? Their cost are the jobs in the US manufacturing that DVD player.... and there are the costs of the jobs to manufacture the components... and even the cardboard packaging it comes in. All of those are opportunity costs that the U.S. no longer has.

The cardboard packaging is a great example since because of it's relatively low price per pound, it is not something that is usually "globalized" since it costs more to ship it than it does to produce it locally. Since the DVD player is produced in China, the corrugated it comes in is also produced there. That just cost the U.S. how many timber jobs? how many paper plant jobs? how many corrugated manufacturer jobs? how many box cutter jobs? (yes these are generally separate industries. How about the front office workers for all of those manufacturing plants? How about the companies that build the machines for the respective industries? Hell that $20 DVD player probably cost Briggs and Stratton the sale of 50 chainsaw engines.

So a DVD player is priced at $20 at Walmart, but because it was sourced entirely out of country, it actually cost thousands of jobs domestically.

Most people, if they understood the ramifications their actions, would be willing to pay $50 for a DVD player if that meant all of their neighbors would keep their jobs.

[Drew Dowdell]

Competition is reduced, leading to less innovation for features, quality, and price. Cars today are incredibly reliable and have all sorts of amazing technological features that people in the 70s couldn't even conceive of. There is no doubt that without the Japanese invasion in the 70s the domestic industry today would be vastly inferior.

1950's

General Motors

Ford Motor Company

Chrysler

Studebaker

Packard

Hudson

Nash

Willys-Overland

Kaiser

International Harvester

Mercedes Benz

Volkswagen

Today:

General Motors

Ford Motor Company

Chrysler

Toyota

Honda

Nissan/Renault

Mercedes Benz

BMW

Volkswagen

Hyundai/Kia

Tata-Jaguar/LR

Yup... sure looks like "more competition" today.....

Looks like "more competition" from non-domestic sources is more like it.

[Robert Hall]

So a DVD player is priced at $20 at Walmart, but because it was sourced entirely out of country, it actually cost thousands of jobs domestically.

Most people, if they understood the ramifications their actions, would be willing to pay $50 for a DVD player if that meant all of their neighbors would keep their jobs.

I wonder if any company makes or has ever made a DVD player in the US. I've only bought two over the years--a $550 Sony 5 disc one 11 years ago that I still use, works fine, and more recently, a $350 Toshiba HD-DVD player. As much as I'd like to buy stuff made in America, the best mainstream home electronics still seem to come from Japan Inc.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[CSpec]

What on earth are you talking about? US dollars go to Chinese suppliers who make the cheap components for the cheap DVD player. Then what happens? The Apocalypse? No, those dollars are spent, either directly in the US or domestically in China for some other good, and those dollars can again make their way to the US, and this process is repeated ad infinitum. If you're so hung up on the accounting aspects of trade deficits and job statistics based on geographical boundaries, then in the long run the overall American employment picture is the same, but in the long run the American consumer is benefited! Because that DVD player is now cheaper. Not to mention the Chinese workers are also made richer, but you don't seem to care about that. You're trapped looking at very selective time windows, Olds.

[CSpec]

Yup... sure looks like "more competition" today.....

Looks like "more competition" from non-domestic sources is more like it.

That's right, because they produced a better product and won. I'm so sad I'm forced to only choose among superior products.

[CSpec]

And getting back to the point of this thread, would the protectionists here find it deplorable if it were shown that Phoenix and Las Vegas' growth was directly correlated with Detroit's collapse? Or is it only bad if a person with a funny name benefits?

[Drew Dowdell]

What on earth are you talking about? US dollars go to Chinese suppliers who make the cheap components for the cheap DVD player. Then what happens? The Apocalypse? No, those dollars are spent, either directly in the US or domestically in China for some other good, and those dollars can again make their way to the US, and this process is repeated ad infinitum. If you're so hung up on the accounting aspects of trade deficits and job statistics based on geographical boundaries, then in the long run the overall American employment picture is the same, but in the long run the American consumer is benefited! Because that DVD player is now cheaper. Not to mention the Chinese workers are also made richer, but you don't seem to care about that. You're trapped looking at very selective time windows, Olds.

All of that would be true if the Chinese were actually buying anything that we export. The won't and don't. They won't even buy Buicks made in the U.S. ... and they LOVE Buicks.

What you describe is the fantasy world of "free trade". The Chinese are hording dollars. They aren't spending them here. A small slice of that $20 DVD player remains here in the U.S. with some Walmart worker who probably doesn't even have healthcare. The rest flows either into the pockets of the already wealthy shareholders of Walmart or directly into the Chinese economy to remain indefinitely.

What on earth was I talking about is the entire support food chain that exists to bring a product to market. By bypassing the American manufacturing system and buying directly from China, that entire employement food chain is destroyed. Yes this happens as industries change. But when it happened in the buggie market with Ford, the employment food chain was replaced domestically.

We've cut off the roots of the economy(the manufacturing base). We're watching the trunk die (the middle class). Yet you think the tree will continue to bare fruit forever for the rich.

Again, we've had 30 years of proof. Unless you're the CEO of a Fortune 500 and haven told us, you're poorer than you would have been had we not offshore our entire manufacturing base.

[Drew Dowdell]

That's right, because they produced a better product and won. I'm so sad I'm forced to only choose among superior products.

If you worked for an AMC dealer, you wouldn't be able to choose between any product.

[Robert Hall]

If you worked for an AMC dealer, you wouldn't be able to choose between any product.

AMC has been gone over 20 years, so that's a moot point.

[CSpec]

All of that would be true if the Chinese were actually buying anything that we export. The won't and don't. They won't even buy Buicks made in the U.S. ... and they LOVE Buicks.

What you describe is the fantasy world of "free trade". The Chinese are hording dollars. They aren't spending them here. A small slice of that $20 DVD player remains here in the U.S. with some Walmart worker who probably doesn't even have healthcare. The rest flows either into the pockets of the already wealthy shareholders of Walmart or directly into the Chinese economy to remain indefinitely.

What on earth was I talking about is the entire support food chain that exists to bring a product to market. By bypassing the American manufacturing system and buying directly from China, that entire employement food chain is destroyed. Yes this happens as industries change. But when it happened in the buggie market with Ford, the employment food chain was replaced domestically.

We've cut off the roots of the economy(the manufacturing base). We're watching the trunk die (the middle class). Yet you think the tree will continue to bare fruit forever for the rich.

Again, we've had 30 years of proof. Unless you're the CEO of a Fortune 500 and haven told us, you're poorer than you would have been had we not offshore our entire manufacturing base.

"For each one sugar growing and harvesting job saved through high U.S. sugar prices, nearly three confectionery manufacturing jobs are lost."

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/02/few-days-ago-i-posted-about-tariffs.html

"Suppose the average American worker earns twenty dollars per hour while the average Chinese worker earns just two dollars per hour. Won’t free trade make it impossible to defend the higher American wage? Won’t there instead be a leveling down until, say, both American and Chinese workers earn eleven dollars per hour? The answer, once again, is no."

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/FreeTrade.html

[Drew Dowdell]

And getting back to the point of this thread, would the protectionists here find it deplorable if it were shown that Phoenix and Las Vegas' growth was directly correlated with Detroit's collapse? Or is it only bad if a person with a funny name benefits?

You misrepresent me. I am not protectionist. I'm all for free trade... as long as it's truly free and not one way like it is now. When Oshwa and Kansas City are running 3rd shift to be able to supply Buicks to China, then we'll have free trade. When the trade picture with China is not 296b imported to 69b exported,and something more even, then call me.

What exactly does Phoenix produce besides real estate agents?

How much of the growth of either city is from northerner's moving to warmer climates?

AMC has been gone over 20 years, so that's a moot point.

My point is that he would have lost his job and thus not been able to afford a Packard OR a Lexus.

[Drew Dowdell]

"For each one sugar growing and harvesting job saved through high U.S. sugar prices, nearly three confectionery manufacturing jobs are lost."

http://mjperry.blogs...ut-tariffs.html

"Suppose the average American worker earns twenty dollars per hour while the average Chinese worker earns just two dollars per hour. Won’t free trade make it impossible to defend the higher American wage? Won’t there instead be a leveling down until, say, both American and Chinese workers earn eleven dollars per hour? The answer, once again, is no."

http://www.econlib.o.../FreeTrade.html

WE DON'T HAVE FREE TRADE WITH THE CHINESE! THEY ARE A COMPLETELY PROTECTIONIST COUNTRY! THE CHINESE HAVE (relatively) FREE TRADE WITH THE U.S.!

Get back to me when the Chinese are buying as much from us as we are from them.

[Robert Hall]

What exactly does Phoenix produce besides real estate agents?

Golf courses. There were a lot of construction jobs over the last 30 years with the infinite suburb growth, but that has tapered off.

There are also plenty of tech jobs here also, not as much as a Seattle, Austin, San Jose or Denver/Boulder, but a reasonable amount...plenty of big employers like General Dynamics, Intel, Motorola, some major bank operations centers, lots of smaller tech companies as well. Certainly more action here than there was in NE Ohio or SE Michigan (where I was prior to Colorado).

There are plenty of retirees in the Valley of the Sun, but there are plenty of non-retirees also..4 million or so people in a desert...it's a strange place, but I've been calling it home for a couple years now.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

Who?

[trinacriabob]

There are plenty of retirees in the Valley of the Sun, but there are plenty of non-retirees also..4 million or so people in a desert...it's a strange place, but I've been calling it home for a couple years now.

I was just going to ask you where you were. So, if you had to pick, do you like Phoenix or Denver better? You can only pick just one.

Back to OP...I didn't know Saint Louis and Cleveland were coming back. They have decent suburbs, I hear. I've been to some St. Louis suburbs, but never to the Cleveland area. Yes, some of those towns like Flint seem to be God-forsaken.

I know Pittsburgh has indeed come back. So many QOL surveys indicate this. The only problem is that I'm not crazy about cold weather and a gray winter.

Interestingly enough, places like Charlotte and Atlanta are feeling the pinch right now. These were veritable engines. I'm sure they will come back. However, for now, their previous unbridled optimism (and overbuilding) is causing them some pain.

[Robert Hall]

I was just going to ask you where you were. So, if you had to pick, do you like Phoenix or Denver better? You can only pick just one.

Denver, no question. I'd still be there now if I hadn't made certain family-related decisions a couple years ago. I much prefer the climate and the nearby mountains, and the people. Today is my 1 yr anniv. at my current client in Chandler, AZ..contract extended through September, so I'll still be here a while.

Back to OP...I didn't know Saint Louis and Cleveland were coming back. They have decent suburbs, I hear. I've been to some St. Louis suburbs, but never to the Cleveland area. Yes, some of those towns like Flint seem to be God-forsaken.

My impression of Cleveland was that it was still in decline. Recently named 'most miserable city in America' by a Forbes study. I remember Akron and Cleveland being grim when I lived in the area from '88-94, still looked bleak the last few times I've been there.

I know Pittsburgh has indeed come back. So many QOL surveys indicate this. The only problem is that I'm not crazy about cold weather and a gray winter.

Yeah...Pittsburgh is still on my radar. The area has a lot of appeal to me.

Interestingly enough, places like Charlotte and Atlanta are feeling the pinch right now. These were veritable engines. I'm sure they will come back. However, for now, their previous unbridled optimism (and overbuilding) is causing them some pain.

Yes, too much growth too fast...

The overbuilding is causing the Phoenix metro a lot of problems..the Phoenix metro was hit hard by the foreclosure, etc crisis..Huge amount of homes on the market, unfinished subdivisions, unfinished commercial projects, empty strip malls, etc.

[balthazar]

Cubitar ~ >>"Golf courses. There were a lot of construction jobs over the last 30 years with the infinite suburb growth"<<

Interesting how 30-yr ago temporary construction jobs in one city are relevant, yet a nationwide sales outlet & it's employees are a "moot point".

[Robert Hall]

Cubitar ~ >>"Golf courses. There were a lot of construction jobs over the last 30 years with the infinite suburb growth"<<

Interesting how 30-yr ago temporary construction jobs in one city are relevant, yet a nationwide sales outlet & it's employees are a "moot point".

I didn't say anything about 30 years ago..the contruction boom went on in AZ pretty much continuously the last 50 years...esp. strong the last 30. Gone bust now.

As far as AMC, well, it got absorbed into Chrysler.

The reality is that certain parts of the country have had explosive growth in the last 20 years--parts of Arizona, Texas, Florida, Nevada, southern California, the Front Range of Colorado, to name a few. Mostly the South and Southwest.

Other parts of the country have had a lot of out-migration...particularly the rust belt--Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, etc. The Midwest and Northeast hit the hardest.

It's coincided with the decline in the manufacturing economy and the rise of the information and services economy. The transition from a 19th/20th century economy to a 21st century economy.

That's just the way it is, good or bad. Reality of the times.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[ocnblu]

Manufacturing should be a large part of a 21st Century economy, though (like it is in the third world!). Like Drew said, we are cutting the legs out from under ourselves.

[Robert Hall]

Manufacturing should be a large part of a 21st Century economy, though (like it is in the third world!). Like Drew said, we are cutting the legs out from under ourselves.

Problem is it's hard for large, multinational corporations to justify manufacturing in the US, when cheaper labor/etc is available elsewhere.

I'm struggling to see what 21st century manufacturing will look like in the US in 10, 20 years...

[vonVeezelsnider]

The overbuilding is causing the Phoenix metro a lot of problems..the Phoenix metro was hit hard by the foreclosure, etc crisis..Huge amount of homes on the market, unfinished subdivisions, unfinished commercial projects, empty strip malls, etc.

On the bright side it's a great buying opportunity. My parents always wanted a place in Metro Phoenix and it looks like they might just get their wish with prices they way they are. Apparently they're considing buying a place down there this December. Houses were real cheap when I was there in December. They had a real estate display at Paradise Valley mall for 3 car garage, 1400-1800 sq. ft homes in gated communities for less than 150k$