The DEATH of Toyota !

[MRDETROITMETAL]

Over the past few months it has become apparent to everyone that Toyota builds JUNK...dangerous, flawed & totally irresponsible appliances "posing" as automobiles, excuse me..."Cars". Not only have they knowingly sold their garbage to unsuspecting consumers worldwide...BUT THE CARS ARE KILLING PEOPLE !!!!...34 PEOPLE IN THE USA TO DATE...and NOW, Toyota is bragging about "fooling the dumb Americans" !!!! !

:shock:

Documents: Toyota boasted saving $100M on recall

By KEN THOMAS, AP

2 hours ago - 2/21/10 AP WIRE NEWS

WASHINGTON — Toyota officials claimed they saved the company $100 million by successfully negotiating with the government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators.

Toyota, in an internal presentation in July 2009 at its Washington office, said it saved $100 million or more by negotiating an "equipment recall" of floor mats involving 55,000 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 vehicles in September 2007.

The savings are listed under the title, "Wins for Toyota — Safety Group." The document cites millions of dollars in other savings by delaying safety regulations, avoiding defect investigations and slowing down other industry requirements.

The documents could set off alarms in Congress over whether Toyota put profits ahead of customer safety and pushed regulators to narrow the scope of recalls. Two House committees are holding hearings this week on the Japanese automaker's recall of 8.5 million vehicles in recent months to deal with safety problems involving gas pedals, floor mats and brakes.

The world's largest automaker has been criticized for responding too slowly to complaints of sudden acceleration in its vehicles, threatening to undermine its reputation for quality and safety.

The documents were turned over to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and obtained by The Associated Press on Sunday. The presentation was first reported by The Detroit News.

Toyota said in a statement: "Our first priority is the safety of our customers and to conclude otherwise on the basis of one internal presentation is wrong. Our values have always been to put the customer first and ensure the highest levels of safety and quality."

Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., the top Republican on the Oversight Committee, said the documents raise questions on "whether Toyota was lobbying for less rigid actions from regulators to protect their bottom line."

Transportation Department spokeswoman Olivia Alair called the document "very telling. And that's why Secretary (Ray) LaHood has been saying we're going to hold Toyota's feet to the fire and make sure they do what's necessary to make their cars safe for the driving public."

The new documents show the financial benefit of delay. In the presentation, Toyota said a phase-in to new safety regulations for side air bags saved the company $124 million and 50,000 man hours. Delaying a rule for tougher door locks saved $11 million.

On defect regulations, the document boasts that Toyota "avoided investigation" on rusting Tacoma pickup trucks. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration investigated the case in 2008 but closed it without finding a safety defect. Toyota agreed to buy back certain rusty pickups, inspect other and extend warranties.

The document lists seven "Wins for Toyota & Industry," including "favorable recall outcomes," "secured safety rulemaking favorable to Toyota" and "vehicles not in climate legislation." Another page lists "key safety issues," including "Sudden acceleration on ES/Camry, Tacoma, LS etc."

In one passage, the document says Toyota "negotiated 'equipment' recall on Camry/ES re SA; saved $100M+, w/ no defect found."

NHTSA had launched an investigation in March 2007 over allegations that floor mats were interfering with accelerator pedals. Toyota told the government a month later that there was "no possibility of the pedal interference with the all-weather floor mat if it's placed properly and secured."

By that August, the government had connected the problem to a dozen deaths and a survey of 600 Lexus owners discovered 10 percent reported sudden or unexpected acceleration. But the recall in September 2007 was limited to 55,000 Camry and ES350 vehicles to replace the floor mats.

The 10-page internal presentation was dated July 6, 2009, less than two months before a high-speed crash near San Diego killed a California highway patrol officer and his family and reignited concerns over sudden acceleration in Toyotas.

In October 2009, Toyota issued its largest-ever U.S. recall, involving about 4 million vehicles, over concerns of pedals getting stuck in floor mats.

The presentation lists Yoshi Inaba, Toyota's chief executive in North America, on its cover. Inaba is scheduled to testify before the House Energy and Commerce Committee on Wednesday, along with Toyota president Akio Toyoda and Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales USA. The committee is also expected to hear from LaHood, NHTSA Administrator David Strickland and safety advocates.

The Oversight Committee is holding a hearing Tuesday with Lentz, LaHood and Strickland. A Senate committee is planning a March 2 hearing.

Toyota has said it will create an outside review of company operations, do a better job of responding to customer complaints and improve communication with federal officials.

Separately, the government said Sunday it was already investigating reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles when the nation's largest auto insurer shared complaints about the issue.

The Transportation Department released documents showing that in December 2003 it began investigating 39 complaints of sudden acceleration involving 2002-03 Toyota Camry sedans. That was about three months before State Farm shared with NHTSA complaints of sudden acceleration in 2003-04 Lexus ES300s and 2002-04 Camrys.

The document released by LaHood said the department had received allegations of 26 crashes and 4 injuries involving drivers complaining of their vehicles surging when backing up, pulling in and out of parking spaces and shifting gears.

Reports of deaths in the U.S. connected to sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles have surged in recent weeks, with the toll of deaths allegedly attributed to the problem reaching 34 since 2000, according to new consumer data gathered by the U.S. government.

:!:

IMO ..the company should be liquidated and the assets disbursed to people who bought their cars, the cars should be confiscated and destroyed.

For More on this Topic ;

http://www.stingraysstudios.com/Toyota.php

:evil:

[daves87rs]

While I highly doubt it will be the death of toyota, it will piss a lot of people off....

[MRDETROITMETAL]

They are bleeding so much cash, over $25B in the last year alone,...it won't be long before the company is bankrupt...and once the lawyers get a grip on them in the USA...for wrongful death suits....I think they are done, forever. Seriously, 34 Americans have DIED from these "cars"...that is reason enough to kill Toyota off permenantly, IMO.

Of course the Japanese Government will "prop them up" with loans & currency alterations to make it LOOK like they are still viable...but IMO....Toyota is History.

It is just a matter of time, the clock is ticking...they have ruined their reputation & exposed the TRUE nature of the companies lack of all ethics.

They, the management of Toyota,... are pure scum.

Edited February 22, 2010 by MRDETROITMETAL

[ocnblu]

Is there something you want to get off your chest, MDM?

*picks up note pad, fluffs pillow on leather couch, pulls up chair*

Here, lie down and tell me all about it.

*secretly agrees with patient*

[Drew Dowdell]

Tick-Tock?

[RjION]

Toyota will return high on the hog, because consumers want to believe.

[Robert Hall]

Toyota will return high on the hog, because consumers want to believe.

+1. I don't know if the mainstream's confidence in Toyota has really been shaken much...though the true believers probably think it's a government conspiracy against their favorite car maker.

Just an informal, specific poll, but I've asked around a number of coworkers and friends that are serial Toyota buyers, they don't seem bothered much by the recalls, though one is looking at the new Kia Sorrento to replace his '05 Highlander.

One positive anecdote--a friend's wife had been looking for a few months at the Camry, ES, Avalon, Altima, and Accord to replace her dying '99 Intrepid...I've been emailing her the bad news about Toyota, and suggested she look at the Malibu, Fusion, and Taurus also..heard Saturday that she bought a new Taurus.

My friend, her husband,a long time Acura and Nissan fan, is still a bit skeptical about a Ford, but it's her money and decision...

Edited February 22, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

I disagree. I think the "mainstream" that only reads USAToday headlines is very shaken by this. It upsets their worldview and their purchasing decisions. They'll just default over to Honda or this new car company...Furd? Fard?... something like that, they keep hearing good things about.

The "Toyota BEST EVAR!!!!1" are the ones who think this is a government conspiracy.

[Chevy Nick]

When does TTAC start running Toyota Deathwatch stories?

[mkaresh]

Toyota is having some trouble right now, but I personally prefer to stick to the facts.

First off, it's awful that 34 people have died, but this is far from the most lethal product defect. For every person who has died from a runaway Toyota, hundreds have died in SUV rollovers. Well over 100 died from the Ford-Firestone blunder--and both of those companies are still in business. Plenty of lawyers make piles of money suing all volume auto makers for various defects that resulted in fatalities. If you think people have only died in Toyotas from getting floor mats stuck under the accelerator, think again.

Second, Toyota hasn't lost $25b in cash. You might be confusing this with losing $25b in the value of its stock. But a company's market value is irrelevant unless it needs to raise money through a stock offering. Toyota's credit rating remains far better than GM's. It's nowhere near going bankrupt. They might be where GM was in the late 1970s and early 1980s. If they manage to keep making bad decisions for two or three more decades, THEN they MIGHT go bankrupt.

Third, there are people within every auto company who are stupid enough to write a memo like this one.

Edited February 22, 2010 by mkaresh

[Drew Dowdell]

Great to have you post here Micheal.

I don't think the recall will kill Toyota. I think the recall will kill the perception people have about Toyota's quality. Once that is gone, what reason does one have to buy Toyota products. Very few of them are lookers in the styling department, their sports car production is basically dead, other than the Pruis their fuel efficiency isn't any better or worse than Hyundai or Chevy when compared model for model.

In short, the single biggest reason to buy a Toyota, the perception of quality, is now gone.

[MRDETROITMETAL]

^ I think Drew hit the nail on the head here...the "Myth" of Toyota quality has been revealed for what it is;...a Lie.

All manufactures use basically the SAME parts & components from industry suppliers ( as Toyo pointed out, but somehow the Pontiac version is free of this defect, so far )...that is because it is HOW you put the components and parts together that makes the difference...and the USA companies are doing a better job at that with designs that are much more attractive.

I was at my local Chevy dealer this weekend looking over the new Camaro & Corvette ...WOW !...and the salesman told me that they are selling "a lot more cars" after the Toyota Recall was started, and many of the trade ins are Toyotas (which they will not sell anymore on thier lots, they just send them to the auction to get rid of them fast!!)...and that these people are buying the Malibu, Impala and Cobalt...along with the Traverse, Equinox & Trailblazer.

That pretty much says it all,^...people are affected by the news reports in the mainstream media and they rather trade in their Toyo then get it fixed, because they have lost Trust in the manufacturer.

What comes around goes around...Toyo has earned this devaluation by selling Junk and doing it in spite of Knowing full well it was junk to start with. They deserve to die.

(OB...Can I use that scene in my movie script ?...It is awesome !!..LOL Yes I AM writing a Movie called MDM-1)

I am going to post up a Toyo deathwatch meter on my site too !!!.....lmao.

Edited February 22, 2010 by MRDETROITMETAL

[ShadowDog]

All manufactures use basically the SAME parts & components from industry suppliers ( as Toyo pointed out, but somehow the Pontiac version is free of this defect, so far )...that is because it is HOW you put the components and parts together that makes the difference...and the USA companies are doing a better job at that with designs that are much more attractive.

WhA???

[mkaresh]

Great to have you post here Micheal.

I don't think the recall will kill Toyota. I think the recall will kill the perception people have about Toyota's quality. Once that is gone, what reason does one have to buy Toyota products. Very few of them are lookers in the styling department, their sports car production is basically dead, other than the Pruis their fuel efficiency isn't any better or worse than Hyundai or Chevy when compared model for model.

In short, the single biggest reason to buy a Toyota, the perception of quality, is now gone.

They'll take a hit, but I don't think it will be nearly as big as you're implying.

In the end, people base their perceptions most heavily on their personal experience. Anything they (usually selectively) read or hear can amplify perceptions based on their experience. But if they have both direct experience and the media, direct experience will almost always win.

And while some people are having bad experiences with Toyotas, the great majority are not.

The media couldn't have hurt GM all by itself. The media was only able to hurt GM because it had literally millions of bad personal experiences to build from.

There is one other potential factor: concerns over resale. But the used values of Toyotas haven't plummeted, even in the middle of the firestorm. Once they're through the current crisis, resale values are likely to recover much if not all of the ground they've lost. There is some chance they won't--this is a key variable to track.

[mkaresh]

WhA???

While it is true that automakers share suppliers, this isn't nearly like it is in the computer industry. The parts are still not the same parts. They are manufactured to each manufacturer's specs, and subject to that manufacturer's quality tests.

Back in the 1980s my father's best friend's brother was an exec at TRW. He used to tell me how Honda held them to much higher standards than Detroit did, and got much better parts as a result.

So sharing a supplier doesn't mean much. You might as well argue that every restaurant sharing a meat supplier serves the same quality steak.

Edited February 23, 2010 by mkaresh

[Z-06]

There is one other potential factor: concerns over resale. But the used values of Toyotas haven't plummeted, even in the middle of the firestorm. Once they're through the current crisis, resale values are likely to recover much if not all of the ground they've lost. There is some chance they won't--this is a key variable to track.

Resale values of Toyota have dropped and the reason why they have not plummeted is because in people's perceptions of the older models are still unmoved and they still partially believe that it is the newer ones which are recall prone. In a couple of years when the 09 and 10 come in a large quantity then a real judgment can be made about it. There is definitely a dip of up to 10% in the vehicle values since the recall was announced. Which in short term is not insignificant. As inventory swell and people start dumping more Toyotas in the used car market the real signs will follow. I believe that the aftershock is yet to take place.

Time is important here. It took GM 30 years to be at this stage. It would be not wise to think Toyota will be there in a few weeks. But the damage has certainly been done.

[Z-06]

An example of consumers' mindset based on MSNBC Autos

Laura Benin, 34, of New York City chose a 2009 Corolla for her first car purchase a year ago because of Toyota's stellar reputation. Now she's reluctant to drive her car even after the potential acceleration problem is fixed, but knows this is a bad time to try to sell it. "It's a little bit scary to think the car with the greatest reputation for safety is in the situation it's in now," she says.

[mkaresh]

I wouldn't be surprised by 10%, but KBB reported 3%. Which was smaller than I expected.

The heavily publicized recalls of the last few years have affected the 2007 and on cars. There's no reason for people to think the problems only affect the current model year. Not that perceptions always make sense.

[Paolino]

Death of Toyota? Absolutely not.

All I'm going to say is that I met with former colleagues for dinner a week ago, and when I came outside I saw something that shocked me. I said, "Denise?! You traded your recalled car for a brand-new recalled car?!" She said, "Yup." I asked if she got her new gas pedal yet on her 2010 Camry LE and she replied she hadn't.

It boggles my mind.

On the positive note, two friends who are current Toyota owners are scared to purchase another one-and one of them has to get a bigger car for a new baby coming in so we'll see what I can steer him to. (I'm trying to coax him into a new Nox).

[Z-06]

I wouldn't be surprised by 10%, but KBB reported 3%. Which was smaller than I expected.

The heavily publicized recalls of the last few years have affected the 2007 and on cars. There's no reason for people to think the problems only affect the current model year. Not that perceptions always make sense.

The bolded part is where Toyota still has good fanbase to cause a significant damage too soon. Like Drew said before, I would start buying Toyota stock because of the dip in prices. Like it or not, the company gave dividends - a rarity for automobile industry.

[Drew Dowdell]

And while some people are having bad experiences with Toyotas, the great majority are not.

The media couldn't have hurt GM all by itself. The media was only able to hurt GM because it had literally millions of bad personal experiences to build from.

Again, this isn't about actual experiences with Toyota. This is about the perception of the company. If more comes out about what Toyota knew and how they handled that knowledge that isn't good, the trust people put in the company will be broken.

While GM did give the media a lot of fodder to work with in the past, there are plenty of instances of the media harping on GM for things that their competitors did also. How long have we been reading about GM's "ancient" 4-speed auto? Years right? Camry kept it's 4-speed auto till 2005. The Accord still had one in 2002... but go look at a review for a 2002 Impala and you'll find some journalist harping about the 4-speed. Corolla *still* has a 4-speed for the base auto, which makes any harping on a Cobalt's 4-speed disingenuous. I remember reading reviews about the CTS where they took points off the car because they felt the steering wheel was too big. Then there's the review where the BMW had catastrophic brake failure during the evaluation and it still took 1st place.

There's the performance evaluations that pit cars against each other that share a price point but very different size points and the journalists are shocked shocked that the smaller car is easier to throw around turns.

I could go on and on and on.... and I have..... but the point is that there was definitely a piling on by the media on GM.

edit: One of my favorites is that nearly every review of the current CTS-V manage to get a mention of the Cimmaron or 8-6-4 into the first paragraph..... Just once I want to see a review of the M3 or M5 that starts off with how awful the Isetta was.....

[Drew Dowdell]

Death of Toyota? Absolutely not.

All I'm going to say is that I met with former colleagues for dinner a week ago, and when I came outside I saw something that shocked me. I said, "Denise?! You traded your recalled car for a brand-new recalled car?!" She said, "Yup." I asked if she got her new gas pedal yet on her 2010 Camry LE and she replied she hadn't.

It boggles my mind.

On the positive note, two friends who are current Toyota owners are scared to purchase another one-and one of them has to get a bigger car for a new baby coming in so we'll see what I can steer him to. (I'm trying to coax him into a new Nox).

A friend and client of mine is on his 3rd Toyota Avalon. I tried to talk him into at least looking at a Lucerne the last time, but he said that he has a friend at the local Toyota dealer who gets him really good deals. He told me yesterday while looking over the GMC Acadia I'm currently driving that this Avalon will be his last. Though it's got 120k miles on it, he's had a number of issues with it, is bored with it (big surprise there), and the newest one isn't different enough for him to get another. The recall frenzy just put him over the top to look outside of Toyota this time around.

[CARBIZ]

Although many good points have been mentioned in this thread, one major one has been overlooked: that is that Toyota's boring cars mainly appeal to the (large) minority of people who can't think for themselves and believe everything that they read. That type of consumer is VERY susceptible to media 'piling on.' What is happening to Toyota now is nothing more than media 'piling on,' and although I am loving every minute of it, I believe this has the potential to hurt Toyota very, very deeply.

Consumer's Reports already threw up the first warning shot 2 years ago when they apologised for automatically giving Toyota the benefit of the doubt on their launches of new vehicles, but only after so many troubles plagued the Camry and Avalon that they had to say something! If Toyota loses CR, they are finished. That is the bible for the brain dead.

Will it bankrupt them? Certainly not, but then if you'd told GM executives in '95 that they'd be bankrupt in 14 years, you'd have been laughed out of Detroit. The internet and electronic media were in their infancy in '95. Toyota's foibles are going to be circulated farther and wider than GM's were and in an area that is truly Toyota's Achilles heal. For what else do they have, other than the myth of their durability?

At just the time when GM and Ford have their mojo back, Toyota cannot afford this groundswell of truth.

[ShadowDog]

While it is true that automakers share suppliers, this isn't nearly like it is in the computer industry. The parts are still not the same parts. They are manufactured to each manufacturer's specs, and subject to that manufacturer's quality tests.

Back in the 1980s my father's best friend's brother was an exec at TRW. He used to tell me how Honda held them to much higher standards than Detroit did, and got much better parts as a result.

So sharing a supplier doesn't mean much. You might as well argue that every restaurant sharing a meat supplier serves the same quality steak.

That's why I was so alarmed by the comment. I certainly know that it isn't as simple as that comment made it out to be.

[daves87rs]

[/b]

The bolded part is where Toyota still has good fanbase to cause a significant damage too soon. Like Drew said before, I would start buying Toyota stock because of the dip in prices. Like it or not, the company gave dividends - a rarity for automobile industry.

True....

[MRDETROITMETAL]

This all very Interesting...People are "reacting" at this point to the, in their minds, SUDDEN shift in Toyo's reputation...But this is something that anyone in the Auto Industry could see coming for years !! The products have been looking worse than ever, as Toyo went on a binge design program to create an "Identity" for their "Asian look"....unfortunately, they incorporated so many different "partial designs" into One Model that the results have been this awkward looking out of proportion design ethic....notherwords, they are just UGLY looking cars.

That of course mattered very little to the people who bought Toyo's ...as for the most part they could care less what their car Looked like, as long as it got them from A to B with no problems, they were happy. NOW...their customers are afraid to Drive & they do not Trust Toyota to fix the problem...because Toyota still claims they have no "fix" because thier is nothing they can find wrong with the components.

The truth is that as was mentioned here, while the suppliers may be the same, each manufacturer has different standards....Toyota has fowled up somewhere in the component infrastructure of their engineering designs, resulting in a mismatch of components causing this result.!!

On the used car side, the reason the resale value has not dropped in the stats, is that the dealership REFUSE to sell used Toyota's...dumping them into local auctions to get rid of them, as they do not want the liability attached to selling a "recalled Car", therefore the resale stats do not reflect the dumping of these cars at auctions, as they are wholesaled out...to independent car lots !!!!

No matter what, the Party is OVER at Toyopet.

...and that is a good thing as the bottom line here is Toyo KNEW full well that their cars & Trucks are ALL Flawed, but would cost too much to fix them and they just continued to sell them in order to beat GM as the #1 automaker in the World which was just a numbers game to them no matter the cost, so...the Top Management ALL retired or resigned in the last 18 months, put in some new "patsy" board to take the heat and NOW, the Company IS DEAD IN THE WATER.

It may take a bit to sink, but Toyo Is the New TITANIC.

blub blub blub,....

Edited February 23, 2010 by MRDETROITMETAL

[MRDETROITMETAL]

WELL...HERE IS THE "STAKE THROUGH THE HEART" FOR TOYOTA :

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9669869

They just suspended the sales of pretty much every model they make !!!

YOU CAN'T BUY A TOYOTA !!!

LMFAO

[67impss]

And the beat goes on & the beat gos on...

[cletus8269]

i remember reading the comments on autoblog or jalopnik about the front wheel drive units on the 4wd tacomas being questionable now. i kid you not there were people posting such things as "leave it to fat union slob americans to screw up a good product. if it was made in japan you wouldnt be having this problem" dana by the way is responsible for the fwd units if i am not mistaken.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/02/recall-alert-2010-toyota-tacoma.html first comment

Dana corporation again... I know Toyota wants to prove to the USA that their products are American made but they should stop getting defective parts from fat, lazy, unionized Americans who would not recognize a good work ethic even if it smacked them upside the head. Import your parts from Japan. That way you'll know the parts are made right.

ah, self loathing ignorance towards your country at its best.

[Nick]

People like to bad mouth Toyota...I'm not a huge fan of Toyota personally, and it is always nice to see a rival get their "just desserts" every now and then, but to seek death for Toyota is ignorant.

American or not, Toyota still contributes a great deal to this economy, and I would go so far as to say they are the number one reason GM (and any other company for that matter) has finally started to get a clue and build higher quality vehicles. The fact of the matter is Toyota built cars for a while that were arguably more reliable and higher quality than the competition. Customers took note of this and so their perception developed. It was well earned for the most part, though the latter half of this past decade has definitely shown a significant change in what appeared to be at one time an invulnerable Toyota.

Toyota isn't going anywhere. Their image will falter, as it already has, but they will recover. The competition they provide to the market has proven to be invaluable in terms of progress in the automotive industry, and ultimately, it just means better product for the consumer, regardless of which company it comes from.

Funny how defensive people get at the thought of GM going down, but Toyota? Burn it to the ground!

[daves87rs]

Wow...

[Intrepidation]

WELL...HERE IS THE "STAKE THROUGH THE HEART" FOR TOYOTA :

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9669869

They just suspended the sales of pretty much every model they make !!!

YOU CAN'T BUY A TOYOTA !!!

LMFAO

You should+ check the dates of these videos. This is old news. That video was posted 01/26/2010. We already knew about it.

[Camino LS6]

People like to bad mouth Toyota...I'm not a huge fan of Toyota personally, and it is always nice to see a rival get their "just desserts" every now and then, but to seek death for Toyota is ignorant.

American or not, Toyota still contributes a great deal to this economy, and I would go so far as to say they are the number one reason GM (and any other company for that matter) has finally started to get a clue and build higher quality vehicles. The fact of the matter is Toyota built cars for a while that were arguably more reliable and higher quality than the competition. Customers took note of this and so their perception developed. It was well earned for the most part, though the latter half of this past decade has definitely shown a significant change in what appeared to be at one time an invulnerable Toyota.

Toyota isn't going anywhere. Their image will falter, as it already has, but they will recover. The competition they provide to the market has proven to be invaluable in terms of progress in the automotive industry, and ultimately, it just means better product for the consumer, regardless of which company it comes from.

Funny how defensive people get at the thought of GM going down, but Toyota? Burn it to the ground!

Not funny at all, I see Toyota as a net negative for both this country and the automobile in general.

The current situation may not kill Toyota, but their day in the sun is most definitely over.

I will enjoy their death spiral, be it slow or fast.

[MRDETROITMETAL]

I don't see where Toyota has "contributed" anything of value to the Automotive Industry at all...ever. Now , Honda with actual Rear engined F1 development is legendary history & likewise Mazda with the Wankel rotary engine development...both of them certainly have, but Toyo first started cars by a copy of the Chrysler Airflow with a Chevy Stove bolt engine which was such a patent trespass that the parts were actually interchangeable with the American cars !!.

The sales effort in the USA bu Toyota over the past 40 years is deplorable, at best where by they justified "bribing" dealerships into selling their junk (which it was REAL JUNK in the 60's) by paying ALL the COSTS to run a dealership even if they did not sell One Car,.. & then on top of that paying Twice the commission to sales persons over what USA companies paid.

The Facts are coming evident that indeed Toyota has always made & sold JUNK CARS, there is no such thing as a quality Toyota, not any more so than any other manufacturer. The Myth of Quality has been a Promotional Lie fostered by Corporate Toyota to convince the uneducated & automotive ignorant that these products were better....Obviously they were and Are NOT.

[ShadowDog]

I don't see where Toyota has "contributed" anything of value to the Automotive Industry at all...ever. Now , Honda with actual Rear engined F1 development is legendary history & likewise Mazda with the Wankel rotary engine development...both of them certainly have, but Toyo first started cars by a copy of the Chrysler Airflow with a Chevy Stove bolt engine which was such a patent trespass that the parts were actually interchangeable with the American cars !!.

The sales effort in the USA bu Toyota over the past 40 years is deplorable, at best where by they justified "bribing" dealerships into selling their junk (which it was REAL JUNK in the 60's) by paying ALL the COSTS to run a dealership even if they did not sell One Car,.. & then on top of that paying Twice the commission to sales persons over what USA companies paid.

The Facts are coming evident that indeed Toyota has always made & sold JUNK CARS, there is no such thing as a quality Toyota, not any more so than any other manufacturer. The Myth of Quality has been a Promotional Lie fostered by Corporate Toyota to convince the uneducated & automotive ignorant that these products were better....Obviously they were and Are NOT.

There is a very large gray area between a perfect and imperfect car. Unfortunately, those with a mob mentality do not recognize the gray area very much. If one suggests that Toyota isn't any better than the domestic makes and another in the same camp suggests Toyota is crap, where do you think that leaves the domestic makes? I suggest to let the story unfold. Toyota feeling the crunch now is no different than Ford or GM feeling the crunch in the many recalls they've had in their own past. Having owned a Toyota as well as my father having one once, I never identified them as "junk". To me, they were no different a vehicle than any other make, doing some things better, some things on par with everyone else and some things that could have been given more thought.

The automotive industry you speak of has a huge territory outside of the U.S. for which Toyota has played a big role. Their success didn't come about from building "junk" cars. For Toyota to succeed as much as they have globally, they would have had to train dealers to single out the stupidest, most gullible consumers to brainwash into buying their "junk" vehicles; to ignore, or downplay any possible problem their vehicle ever had. Not even a government body can spew as much false propaganda to influence a global populace in the manner required to force people into "junk" vehicles to succeed the way Toyota has.

How I see it: Toyota builds vehicles that many people appreciate over other makes. That's their success to capture the market where others have failed. Now, Toyota has a problem with their vehicles and will do what is necessary to rectify the situation and continue building vehicles that many people appreciate over other makes. One can't blame them for playing the game of Monopoly when everyone else is playing the same game.

[Camino LS6]

But we can certainly revel in their misfortune.

I am.

I hate everything about the company, and its vehicles - always have.

[ocnblu]

I wouldn't give a Peso for a Paseo if I were the richest man in Mehico. No sombrero for me!

[MRDETROITMETAL]

I think there IS a fundamental Difference in the Operational Strategy of Toyota, and that is a Very Different "ethic" than GM, Ford, Audi, MB, VW...and Most ALL other Auto Companies.

Toyo has Intentionally used greed & avarice, outright bribes & untruthful statements while at the same time laying "blame" always first on their "so called" Loyal Customers.

This can be SEEN right Now at the hearing today where BOTH the heads of Toyota are Lying Bold Faced that they "had no knowledge" or "do not recall"...the circumstance of reported problems & deaths. The Culture of Toyota is one of "Compartmentalized Secrecy", even the design process of the cars reflects this ethic, where it results in a "mismatched" look of components.

They want to tell Americans that Toyota IS an American Car !!!....this is just disgusting.

No data transfer of operational results is available to the owners, but is rather encoded so that it cannot be downloaded except by Toyota as they claimed it is proprietary info. Whereas, Other manufacturers have a "reader" to allow owners to get the data from their cars. Sure it is Proprietary because it is hiding "the Lie" !!

The Problems are Intrinsic in the methods of their Business Operations, where profit and more so, the volume of sales in a concerted effort to Beat GM as #1 Worldwide, was put as the top concern and goal of the company....no matter what the cost.

The COST has so far Been 34 deaths & the ruin of Toyota...forever.