Why GM should NOT build a DOHC V8

[Drew Dowdell]

LOL glad to help.... I think?

[smk4565]

The Pushrod engines don't have the refinement and NVH that the DOHC engines do.  And when you rev a pushrod and get into that 5,000 rpm area they sound horrible, where as a DOHC engine usually sounds better the more you rev it.  There is a quality to the DOHC sound and feel, that regular consumers want for their CamCord, and luxury consumers want in their S-class. 

 

And the pushrod V6 didn't lose as much to the DOHC V6 as it lost to the DOHC inline-4.  Look at the Malibu, Terrain/Equinox, Impala, Regal, Verano of today with 4-cyldiner DOHC vs the Alero, Monte Carol, Impala, Malibu, Regal, Lesabre, etc of 2002 that had a pushrod V6. 

[El Kabong]

LS7 sounds great all the way to 7100rpm man. Both my LS3s were fantastic to 6600.

Also, the Bentley Mulsanne?... pushrods.

[oldshurst442]

LOL glad to help.... I think?

Yes you did.

 

I once asked a particular poster at MT forums if he could explain to me how a VR Volks engine works...because I knew it was a V engine and at the same time an inline one too, and that created a several month debacle over at MT.

 

And by you mentioning its a SOHC engine if one sees it as a "V" configuration or a DOHC engine if one sees it as an inline...I honestly understand what it is you are talking about...he actually did a fantastic job in explaining it to me....its just that other posters egged him on on semantics...for several months.

[oldshurst442]

The Pushrod engines don't have the refinement and NVH that the DOHC engines do.  And when you rev a pushrod and get into that 5,000 rpm area they sound horrible, where as a DOHC engine usually sounds better the more you rev it.  There is a quality to the DOHC sound and feel, that regular consumers want for their CamCord, and luxury consumers want in their S-class. 

 

And the pushrod V6 didn't lose as much to the DOHC V6 as it lost to the DOHC inline-4.  Look at the Malibu, Terrain/Equinox, Impala, Regal, Verano of today with 4-cyldiner DOHC vs the Alero, Monte Carol, Impala, Malibu, Regal, Lesabre, etc of 2002 that had a pushrod V6. 

That is funny...what you said about GM's OHV V6s losing to 4 cylinders...

 

My wife's 1.6 liter ecoboosted GDI 4 cylinder drives an awful lot like those GM OHV pushrod V6s...from the 2.8, to the 3.1 sequential FI,, to the 3.4 in the Alero....other than the occasional turbo lag in the Fusion...I mean very similar...and trust me...Id rather the GM 2.8/3.1/3.4  than the 1.6 ecoboost...and I dont really dislike the 1.6 ecoboost...I actually like it....but I do prefer 6 cylinders...OHV if need be...

 

And the reason why I mention those engines...is because I owned them and drove them....

Other than the 3.4 V6s gasket problems...they were quite peppy and reliable.....

Let it be known that I personally did not experience gasket problems with the 3.4 in the Alero.

 

S

[Drew Dowdell]

The Pushrod engines don't have the refinement and NVH that the DOHC engines do.  And when you rev a pushrod and get into that 5,000 rpm area they sound horrible, where as a DOHC engine usually sounds better the more you rev it.  There is a quality to the DOHC sound and feel, that regular consumers want for their CamCord, and luxury consumers want in their S-class. 

 

And the pushrod V6 didn't lose as much to the DOHC V6 as it lost to the DOHC inline-4.  Look at the Malibu, Terrain/Equinox, Impala, Regal, Verano of today with 4-cyldiner DOHC vs the Alero, Monte Carol, Impala, Malibu, Regal, Lesabre, etc of 2002 that had a pushrod V6. 

 

You're only part right. The old ones lost out to the Turbo Inline-4 engines.  A new one would be a different story.  A 3900 with direct injection in place of the 2.4 in the 'Nox would likely be a welcome improvement in power and off the line torque. It would likely end up somewhere around 95% of the power of the 3.6 with 95% of the fuel economy of the 2.4.  A very nice compromise engine for those who like neither existing option.  The 4.3 would make a good option in the Terrain as well and a huge improvement in the Lambdas.

 

 

And no... pushrods do not sound horrible above 5,000 RPM. 

 

Z06

 

Hellcat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d14y4G4lNNw

 

Something a bit tamer?

 

How about even tamer? Silverado 4.3

[El Kabong]

LOL glad to help.... I think?

Yes you did.

I once asked a particular poster at MT forums if he could explain to me how a VR Volks engine works...because I knew it was a V engine and at the same time an inline one too, and that created a several month debacle over at MT.

And by you mentioning its a SOHC engine if one sees it as a "V" configuration or a DOHC engine if one sees it as an inline...I honestly understand what it is you are talking about...he actually did a fantastic job in explaining it to me....its just that other posters egged him on on semantics...for several months.

Semantics... just hearing that word these days gives me a facial tic.

The 4.3 would be a great engine for the Lambdas, if it could fit. I dunno that a transversely-mounted 90-degree V6 could. From an NVH standpoint I'd prefer a 60-degree V6.

Edited August 21, 2015 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

semantics

 

and El Kabong be like

 

I could just imagine what the name Bill does to you...

Edited August 21, 2015 by oldshurst442

[El Kabong]

The name makes me laugh. The night he attacked my in WOT and said my choice of truck was "immoral" was comedy GOLD.

...but yeah. Semantics

[oldshurst442]

The name makes me laugh. The night he attacked my in WOT and said my choice of truck was "immoral" was comedy GOLD.

...but yeah. Semantics

I ran out of time...to do something about that...without trying to be too conspicuous...but yeah...semantix...or seman-tics

Edited August 21, 2015 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

If the 4.3 was so great, they'd use it in the Lambdasm or even the Colorado.  They must prefer the 3.6 DOHC for some reason.

 

And however the Corvette and Hellcat sound, compare that to a V12 Aston Martin or a Ferrari 458, or a Lamborghini or a Veyron, etc.  No contest.

[oldshurst442]

If the 4.3 was so great, they'd use it in the Lambdasm or even the Colorado.  They must prefer the 3.6 DOHC for some reason.

 

And however the Corvette and Hellcat sound, compare that to a V12 Aston Martin or a Ferrari 458, or a Lamborghini or a Veyron, etc.  No contest.

For you...but some of us actually prefer American Muscle sounds over Ferraris, Lambos..

 

Veyron?

 

Yeah...I dont think so Tim. Why? Its muffled! You hardly hear the engine!

And yeah...I do like Ferrari symphony......I just prefer American V8  rock-n-roll that much better...ROCK ME AMADEUS!!!

 

Ironic post...from me.

 

Rock Me Amadeus...Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart...pseudo rock song...if you could even call it that... about an Austrian...by an Austrian group...

Nothing Rock-N-Rolly about that....nothing American either...but oh well...Its fun posting Olds style!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

If the 4.3 was so great, they'd use it in the Lambdasm or even the Colorado.  They must prefer the 3.6 DOHC for some reason.

 

MARKETING

 

It lets them claim best in class V6 Horsepower even though the customer would be better served by the greater torque of the 4.3.   They've spent so many year brainwashing people like you who are hooked on the horsepower number that taking it away would be like ripping the needle out of an addict's arm. 

 

MARKETING

MARKETING

MARKETING

 

I'm sure that Colorado buyers are cross shopping with a Veyron.... and they were so into the truck, except it didn't have a suede glove box liner.... 

 

BTW, your post has inspired me to give the down voting feature a trial run.

[El Kabong]

Drew's gone CRAZY!!!

[oldshurst442]

Ah RIGHT!

 

Its BA-ACK!

 

The DOWN VOTES are BA-ACK!

[El Kabong]

And he RUNS THE JOINT!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

Sorry guys... I've just been extra aggravated by work this week. So much so that I took tomorrow off in protest and the following weekend is a 4 day weekend... again in protest.

 

I was just handed a huge project for September when I thought I was going to get to stay in Pittsburgh and not travel.  Now, I'm basically gone all of September, with basically zero notice.  That's on top of the planned project for October that is going to have me living in NJ for most of the month.

 

Still... downvoting is back as long as we can all behave ourselves. 

[El Kabong]

... even money he took my advice and got the Wild Turkey

[Drew Dowdell]

... even money he took my advice and got the Wild Turkey

 

I'm a tanqueray 10 man with the occasional Woodford Reserve or Tennessee Honey 

[FAPTurbo]

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

[El Kabong]

What's so dead about the LT4 or Hellcat?

It works. It works well.

[G. David Felt]

What's so dead about the LT4 or Hellcat?

It works. It works well.

News is reporting that due to CAFE, FCA has already stated that the V8 engine line of Dodge, Chrysler, and Jeep will be dead after 2019. 2019 will be the last year you can buy a Hellcat Challenger or Charger. Even the RT Hemi will be dead as they move to 4 & 6 cylinder auto's with turbos pushing out 600+ horsepower.

 

https://myclassicgarage.com/social/posts/115174-dodge-to-drop-hellcat-by-2019-beginning-of-the-end-for-v8s

 

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/srt-hellcat-hemi-engines-might-not-survive-2019-173010561.html

 

http://motrolix.com/2015/08/dodge-hellcat-hemi-v8-production-to-end-in-2019/

 

http://www.dodge-motors.com/news/srt-hellcat-and-hemi-engines-might-not-survive-through-2019/

 

So does that mean GM and Ford will also be looking at phasing out the V8 in auto's other than trucks and special limited production auto's?

 

Wonder if Electric or Hybrid small engine with electric motors are to become the future of performance. Porsche seems to think so.

[G. David Felt]

To illustrate the competitiveness of the pushrod design, let’s compare three V8 engines. All are fielded in high performance production cars, all being of aluminum construction and none having direct injection.

* Chevy Camaro SS

** BMW M3

*** Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG

The pushrod engine offers the highest power and torque density, along with the best fuel economy. It is also the simplest, lightest, smallest and cheapest engine. Why wouldn’t you want a pushrod?

The most common reply to that is “civility”. Well, have you driven a small block lately? If you have, have you also driven the other two engines? I have done all that and here’s my opinion on the civility issue…

The engines have very different characters, but saying that the small block is less civil than the other two is a mischaracterization. The small block is burbly down low and throaty in a throbbing baritone sort of manner when wound out. The BMW V8 quiet and smooth, but also very soft, down low. Get it past 6000 rpm and it wails with a metallic rasp of an engine note. The AMG V8 is (surprising) also rather soft below 4000 rpm, softer in fact than the previous M113 5.5 liter it replaced or the current 5.5 they put in the E550. Wind it out and it responds with vigor and a brash metallic tone from about 4500 rpm to the rev limit of 7200 rpm. Overall, the C63 has the loudest exhaust (I mean this thing is loud enough to wake your neighbors), the M3 has the finest tremble and the Camaro SS is the least edgy and most mellow. I am sure that some of that is how the exhaust and sound insulation in the respective cars are set up, but I didn't get the impression that the pushrod engine is outdated or crude. So, there you go.

This is why I advocate that GM should double down on a good thing and stick to the pushrod V8. With direct injection, variable timing and cylinder deactivation, it’ll be more than up to snuff against anything projected for the next decade. If nobody else is doing it, that’s a good thing they get the monopoly on it!

And, it seems that they are. Currently, there are no plans for a DOHC replacement for the Northstar. There is however a Gen V small block in the works (rumored to be displacing 5.5 liters and sporting direct injection). So, I'll like to offer my congratulations to the General for not losing good judgment despite government ownership.

Over all the battle of OHV versus DOHC will never be settled and Dwightlooi makes a very good case for the ongoing use of pushrod V8 engines.

 

Over all, when a pushrod V8 is built with quality care, you get a life long engine that requires only basic maintenance and lasts a very very long time.

[ccap41]

LS7 sounds great all the way to 7100rpm man. Both my LS3s were fantastic to 6600.

Also, the Bentley Mulsanne?... pushrods.

Did you know that the Continental Sports Car Series only allows that motor to rev to 6100rpm..? In gears 1-3, 6th and 6400rpm in 4-5th  Odd how that works..but Fun fact..

[Drew Dowdell]

Only hellcat is dead. The regular hemi lives on.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

 

Next you post peak power ratings on a handful of engines out of hundreds.

 

I posted GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and Benz. That easily covers the majority of the market, but since that doesn't satisfy you...Very well, I'll get you the rest.

 

Nissan 3.5 VQ (Maxima) - 300hp @ 6400 RPM - RL 6600 RPM

Ford 3.7 (Mustang) - 305hp @ 6500 RPM - RL 6850 RPM (fuel cut off)

BMW N52 - 272hp @ 6650 - RL 7000 RPM (Last non-Turbo 6 I could find) the balance advantage of an I-6 over a V6 are pretty clear here though.

!!!! Volkswagen 3.6 - 280HP @ 6200 RPM - RL 6000 RPM !!!! So VW is advertising a horsepower rating achieved 200 RPM beyond red-line?

Hyundai Lambda 3.8  V6 - 348HP @ 6400 RPM - RL 6750

 

 

 

Why is that even possible/a thing? Post a rating ABOVE what the engine can even rev to?!?!?

 

 

I spoke to someone yesterday about the VW.... apparently the transmission will hold the gear right up till the 6200 RPM horsepower peak, 200 rpm into the red-line. So you do actually get the 280 hp for all of a 100th of a second before the transmission shifts it away. 

[Drew Dowdell]

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

[smk4565]

Depending on the car maybe.  My car makes max horsepower at 6,000 rpm, but has a 6,500 rpm redline.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

 

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC.  But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick.  Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$.  So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

 

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating.  I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do.  What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.  

 

[El Kabong]

I knew I shoulda bet the under :D

...for those just joining us, Drew in fact qualified his remarks. Several times.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.

[G. David Felt]

Drew has listed out the engines with where the HP is fully delivered, If you feel the list is dated then please supply the updated V6 engines and their Max Horsepower delivered at XXXX rpm and redline as additional comparison please.

 

Posted Yesterday, 09:43 AM

Drew Dowdell, on 22 Aug 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

 

Buzz Killington, on 20 Aug 2015 - 9:06 PM, said:

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

 

Wingsforlife: Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

Drew has listed out the engines with where the HP is fully delivered, If you feel the list is dated then please supply the updated V6 engines and their Max Horsepower delivered at XXXX rpm and redline as additional comparison please.

 

Posted Yesterday, 09:43 AM

Drew Dowdell, on 22 Aug 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

 

Buzz Killington, on 20 Aug 2015 - 9:06 PM, said:

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

 

Wingsforlife: Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  

 

 

I was referring to application, not metrics.

[surreal1272]

 

 

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

 

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC.  But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick.  Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$.  So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

 

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating.  I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do.  What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.  

 

 

Just for the record, that is not a CTS. That is an ATS. 

Edited August 24, 2015 by surreal1272

[Frisky Dingo]

 

... even money he took my advice and got the Wild Turkey

 

I'm a tanqueray 10 man with the occasional Woodford Reserve or Tennessee Honey 

 

 

 

Well, would you look at that- something I agree with.

[G. David Felt]

 

 

... even money he took my advice and got the Wild Turkey

 

I'm a tanqueray 10 man with the occasional Woodford Reserve or Tennessee Honey 

 

 

 

Well, would you look at that- something I agree with.

 

Personally I will take red wine for every day drinking I love Mark Ryan wines.

Sapphire or Hendricks for my Gin.

Blue Label Johnny Walker for whiskey

Dos Armadillos Extra Anejo Reserva for my Tequila

Back on Subject, I still do not see a need for the over heavy over rated DOHC engines period. 

[El Kabong]

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world.

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC.  But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick.  Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$.  So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

 

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating.  I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do.  What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7Yc3Tr-Yc

Just for the record, that is not a CTS. That is an ATS.

:D

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

 

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world.

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC.  But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick.  Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$.  So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

 

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating.  I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do.  What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.  

 

Just for the record, that is not a CTS. That is an ATS.

:D

 

Funny thing is that I noticed the error before I even started the video. That cheap ATS cluster gives it away every time. Such a shame on an otherwise nice car.

[G. David Felt]

To me the ATS cluster is nice, it is an entry level auto and it is a nice dash, nice instrument cluster. Not sure why people always say it is cheap, you want cheap look at the crappy interior on MB and BMW. That is Cheap in comparison.

[surreal1272]

To me the ATS cluster is nice, it is an entry level auto and it is a nice dash, nice instrument cluster. Not sure why people always say it is cheap, you want cheap look at the crappy interior on MB and BMW. That is Cheap in comparison.

When you put it next to the CTS cluster though, it stands out as an after thought to me. The rest of the interior is very nice but staring at that cluster is just too much for me. Just my opinion though.

[G. David Felt]

 

To me the ATS cluster is nice, it is an entry level auto and it is a nice dash, nice instrument cluster. Not sure why people always say it is cheap, you want cheap look at the crappy interior on MB and BMW. That is Cheap in comparison.

When you put it next to the CTS cluster though, it stands out as an after thought to me. The rest of the interior is very nice but staring at that cluster is just too much for me. Just my opinion though.

 

Now that I can better understand and yes it does not hold up to the CTS. I am hoping they have a Family Style / quality level of dashes as they move to the CT naming same for the CUV and SUV's.

[surreal1272]

 

 

To me the ATS cluster is nice, it is an entry level auto and it is a nice dash, nice instrument cluster. Not sure why people always say it is cheap, you want cheap look at the crappy interior on MB and BMW. That is Cheap in comparison.

When you put it next to the CTS cluster though, it stands out as an after thought to me. The rest of the interior is very nice but staring at that cluster is just too much for me. Just my opinion though.

 

Now that I can better understand and yes it does not hold up to the CTS. I am hoping they have a Family Style / quality level of dashes as they move to the CT naming same for the CUV and SUV's.

 

Nothing wrong with a little variation between their models but Cadillac just kind of skimmed over the cluster on this occasion. Hopefully the first refresh will address this. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

 

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

 

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC.  But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick.  Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$.  So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

 

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating.  I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do.  What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.  

 

 

Just for the record, that is not a CTS. That is an ATS. 

 

And only a GM fan would notice.

Or care.

 

They both offer the same exact engine, which was the topic or at least my point regarding DOHC.

 

Heck, in dim light, they look identical too.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Wings4Life

[surreal1272]

 

 

 

 

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread. 

#teslamasterrace

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

 

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC.  But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick.  Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$.  So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

 

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating.  I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do.  What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.  

 

 

Just for the record, that is not a CTS. That is an ATS. 

 

And only a GM fan would notice.

Or care.

 

They both offer the same exact engine, which was the topic or at least my point regarding DOHC.

 

Heck, in dim light, they look identical too.

 

Get some glasses because any real car person (I have told you a million times that I am not a fan of any one company) would see that was not a CTS. I know it's not the equivalent to an Ivy League education, but how hard is it for anyone professing to know cars, to see that?

Edited August 26, 2015 by surreal1272

[Guest Burnt Valve LS7]

You're all arguing about dead technology. I can't wait for the 486DX4 vs Pentium 60 thread.

#teslamasterrace

It's more than just that. With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit. They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world.

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this. I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC. But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick. Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$. So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating. I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do. What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7Yc3Tr-Yc

Just for the record, that is not a CTS. That is an ATS.

And only a GM fan would notice.

Or care.

They both offer the same exact engine, which was the topic or at least my point regarding DOHC.

Heck, in dim light, they look identical too.

And with the ATS and CTS sales falling falling falling, seems NOBODY cares ( for the cars ), not even GM fans.

[balthazar]

So who's the "NOBODIES" who bought 26 thousand of them so far this calendar year?

 

And funny how there's no chatter about -say- Jaguar, what with "NOBODY" buying their sedans, which are selling at 25% of what they did 13 years ago.

[El Kabong]

Some folks are just stupid. The CTS and ATS are doing more than well enough to justify their existence. Which is more than we can say for some products.

Edited August 27, 2015 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

So who's the "NOBODIES" who bought 26 thousand of them so far this calendar year?

 

And funny how there's no chatter about -say- Jaguar, what with "NOBODY" buying their sedans, which are selling at 25% of what they did 13 years ago.

 

Some folks are just stupid. The CTS and ATS are doing more than well enough to justify their existence. Which is more than we can say for some products.

 

I wanted to address his post...but I figured...a poster that either

 

1. doesnt have the courtesy to join our forums to engage in a discussion

  a) because he prefers doing the run and gun type posting

  b) posts once in a blue moon just to troll...

 

2. doesnt have the balls to actually confront, as a member, the posters he targets

 

 

doesnt merit my precious time. I aint gonna waste good bandwidth on him....he aint worth all that aggravation and stupidity...

[Intrepidation]

That these engines need is...VTEC

 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's more than just that.  With these naturally aspirated DOHC V6es, I feel that customers are getting cheated a bit.  They are being sold horsepower ratings that they will never see in the real world. 

 

Drew, you really need to qualify a remark like this.  I know you are mostly referring to cam-cord V6 automobiles for the general masses, and that's fine, but there are many performance oriented vehicles that benefit with DOHC.  But that is my whole point as well, in that the benefits of DOHC path for families of engines that automakers CHOSE to follow....are far more than just a marketing gimmick.  Engineering is a balance act of trade-offs, and clearly, the scale tipped to the benefits of DOHC to invest in entire families of engines for your products. A few examples here and there of OHV offering benefits, should not and does not dictate where you invest your engineering $$$$.  So yeah, marketing is part of that equation, but a small part.

 

Here is a CTS w/ 3.6L accelerating.  I don't know what you see, but what I don't see, is a driver waiting for the hp's to kick in that supposedly never do.  What I do see, is a DOHC revving freely right out of the whole, and building momentum, well past where an OHV engine would fall flat.  

 

 

Just for the record, that is not a CTS. That is an ATS. 

 

And only a GM fan would notice.

Or care.

 

They both offer the same exact engine, which was the topic or at least my point regarding DOHC.

 

Heck, in dim light, they look identical too.

 

Get some glasses because any real car person (I have told you a million times that I am not a fan of any one company) would see that was not a CTS. I know it's not the equivalent to an Ivy League education, but how hard is it for anyone professing to know cars, to see that?

 

 

really, so in that night time video, any real car person can tell the difference between an ATS and CTS lights......at night.......on the dash? 

 

If you say so

[surreal1272]

Yes, if you are a real car person, especially when they are two completely different sets of gauges. That's like me not knowing the difference between a Fusion and Mustang gauge cluster Sorry if you don't get that and yes I do say so.