President Offers Automakers Little Encouragement

[w00t_man]

Bush's history of oil industry connections and Cheney's past with Halliburton are proof enough....they are corrupt, vile, evil men...

Bush was the governor of Texas. Of course he has connections in the oil industry, the vast majority of people in Texas/Oklahoma do. It doesnt make him evil or corrupt.

[Robert Hall]

I agree with him. I cant stand Bush and every since he's been in office America is basically goin to hell in a handbasket.

I hate Bush and his corrupt regime and all it stands for. Evil, lying people. Then there are the sheep that voted for him and believe in him...

[w00t_man]

I hate Bush and his corrupt regime and all it stands for. Evil, lying people.  Then there are the sheep that voted for him and believe in him...

You still have yet to prove anything you're saying. The Bush administration is not corrupt, it's conservative. And it doesnt believe in the easy way out, it believes in the right way.

[CSpec]

You still have yet to prove anything you're saying.  The Bush administration is not corrupt, it's conservative.  And it doesnt believe in the easy way out, it believes in the right way.

How does being conservative have anything to do with corruption?

[w00t_man]

How does being conservative have anything to do with corruption?

That's my point. It has NOTHING to do with corruption.

The media spins things to make it seem like the Bush administration is corrupt because it doesnt agree with its conservative views. They have no proof, so they make things up.

[NOS2006]

This upsets me, Bush. Not that you're not helping "bail them out," no, but the mere fact that you say, "they need better vehicles."

Japan offers their automakers so many benefits. Look at who's gaining fast in the US, now... Honda, Toyota, Nissan. At least give the Big Three tax breaks, Bush. You don't need a bailout, but you do need to aid them.

[Drew Dowdell]

Getting bailed out is precisely what GM and Ford DON'T need.  They need to sell better product, not get saved from going bankrupt and keep doing the same thing.  It's not the way to run a business, relying on handouts.

I think Bush is doing the right thing here.

You don't think that if GM didn't have a $1500 pension Albatross hanging around their neck with every car they sell they wouldn't have to cut corners?

[Drew Dowdell]

You still have yet to prove anything you're saying.  The Bush administration is not corrupt, it's conservative.  And it doesnt believe in the easy way out, it believes in the right way.

The bush administration is FAR from conservative. They believe in LARGER government, less federalism, and fiscal irrisponsibility.

Sure they may be socially conservative, but that isn't the same thing as politically conservative. The are most certainly not fiscally conservative. Just because taxes are lower doesn't mean it's "right".

[w00t_man]

The bush administration is FAR from conservative. They believe in LARGER government, less federalism, and fiscal irrisponsibility.

Sure they may be socially conservative, but that isn't the same thing as politically conservative. The are most certainly not fiscally conservative. Just because taxes are lower doesn't mean it's "right".

No, but bailing out GM and Ford isnt the right thing to do either.

[Drew Dowdell]

No, but bailing out GM and Ford isnt the right thing to do either.

In desperation, the Chrysler Corporation on September 7, 1979 petitioned the United States government for US$1 billion in loan guarantees to avoid bankruptcy. At the same time, Lee Iacocca, a former Ford executive, was brought in to take the position of CEO, and proved a capable public spokesman for the firm. A somewhat reluctant Congress authorized the guarantees, prodded by Chrysler workers and dealers in every congressional district who feared the loss of their livelihoods. With such help and a few innovative cars (such as the K-car platform), especially the invention of the minivan concept, a market where Chrysler brands are still important, Chrysler avoided bankruptcy and slowly fought its way back up. By the early 1980s, the loans were being repaid at a brisk pace and new models based on the K-car platform were selling well.

This is bad for the government or GM or taxpayers.... how?

Just think for a SECOND if Toyota or Honda were in deep financial trouble that Japanese government wouldn't help them out. Heck Japanese government keeps the value of the Yen low just to keep Sony, Toyota, and Honda happy.

Airbus is taxpayer subsidised while Boeing is laying off workers.... You think the europeans don't want to knife GM also?

[w00t_man]

Hey, guess what happened to Chrysler Group? They got bought out by the Germans.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hey, guess what happened to Chrysler Group?  They got bought out by the Germans.

20 YEARS LATER!!! at a time when the entire american industry was struggling

Irrelevant Conclusion

Are you just going to use logical fallacies for the rest of the thread?

Edited January 27, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[OshKoshBerJosh]

You still have yet to prove anything you're saying.  The Bush administration is not corrupt, it's conservative.  And it doesnt believe in the easy way out, it believes in the right way.

I can't speak to whether President Bush should intervene to help GM and Ford, but I do know a thing or two about economics and I can tell you that Bush does not.

Bush on Tax Cuts - cut taxes to end a recession and cut taxes to keep the good times coming. My take - Cutting taxes in every economic situation leads to a smaller tax base and helps create large deficits.

Bush on free trade - free trade with all cooperative countries NAFTA< CAFTA< etc. My take - there are theoretical long term benefits of free trade. However, like communism, those theoretical benefits aren't going to play out in practice. Free trade destroys industries in well-off countries in order to bring prosperity to others. In reality, it's little more than a means for corporations to outsource every aspect of the production of their products to cheap labor markets.

Bush on government/entitlement programs - get rid of programs that don't work. My take - What happens to those who do benefit from such programs? Why not fix programs that are already in place? We have an obligation to help those who cannot help themselves. The resources given to such persons are pumped directly back into the economy, thus creating more taxable revenue.

Bush on balanced budgets - keep borrowing money to pay for what we want. As Cheney said, "deficits don't matter. Reagan proved that." My take - Irresponsible. The amount of interest we must pay is staggering, and is reported to be one of the largest expenditures of the federal government.

Bush on creditcard payments - Let's increase the minimum payment due each moth from 2% to 4% in order to force people to take more responsibility for their debts. My take: Why shouldn't federal goverment be as responsible? Also, the creditcard companies have a hand in creating such high amounts of personal debts. They offer credit and increased credit to people they know won't be able to pay. This is a very backwards business model.

[rez7777]

Bush put on tariffs on Chinese Televisions (not LCDS or Plasmas). The Japanese cried we can not compete fairly with The Chinese's. That action hurt American manufactures such As Polaroid, Apex Digital, Advent and others who use Chinese manufactures to help compete with the Japanese. Also the reason we have high proscription drug price is because every nation puts on a price cap on what they will pay for their drugs. So to make up the difference the drug companies charge us a lot more. The Japanese manipulate their currency and have a unfair advantage because of legacy costs. Thats why Bush should help out GM and Ford.

[cmattson]

Got any proof for that?

Are you kidding me? Where have you been? Our oil industry literally sat down, in closed meetings and helped craft our energy policy. That's unheard of. I guess it was coincidence that our energy policy dictated that we increase our strategic oil supply; thereby shortening whats available for consumers and spiking prices? And Enron? No problem there: the entire state of California was screaming for anybody to just look into Enron's policies & the administration made a vague "we believe in a free market" statement and looked the other direction. Don't mind the fact that one of Enron's chief architects, Ken Lay (a Bush "pioneer") hasn't even come close to a courtroom yet. Just to give you an idea of how slow justice is moving here: the Martha Stewart insider-trading deal broke in June of '02. Enron broke in Sept. of '01. Martha has had her trial, her conviction and has served her sentence. Any news on when Lay's trial is even going to start?

Before you take me as a political wonk, let me make something very clear: I hold *all* politicians in the same light: it's the 99% that rune it for the rest of them.

[Chicagoland]

What's interesting is all over the net, there are people who say "Real Americans who are Republican buy US made cars". "Only wacko Libs drive imports"

And look what their leader really thinks?? It's laughable.

[Snate]

Bush put on tariffs on  Chinese Televisions (not LCDS or Plasmas).  The Japanese cried we can not compete fairly with The Chinese's.  That action hurt American manufactures such As Polaroid, Apex Digital, Advent and others who use Chinese manufactures to  help compete with the Japanese.  Also the reason we have high proscription drug price is because every nation puts on a price cap on what they will pay  for their drugs.  So to make up the difference the drug companies charge us a lot more. The Japanese manipulate their currency and have a unfair advantage because of legacy costs. Thats why  Bush should help out GM and Ford.

I forgot about the tv thing...yet another example of the japanese whining and getting their way.

[Snate]

Bush on Tax Cuts - cut taxes to end a recession and cut taxes to keep the good times coming. My take - Cutting taxes in every economic situation leads to a smaller tax base and helps create large deficits.

Bush's tax cuts are an example of a sound idea implemented horribly. The biggest tax cuts should go to the lowest income brackets and on up. He was giving massive tax breaks to the already wealthy who didn't need it.

[Chicagoland]

".. he would propose meaningful increases in CAFE. He's not and he never will."

If that happens, then C&G can kiss their dream of new large and sporty RWD cars coming back good bye!

[Snate]

".. he would propose meaningful increases in CAFE.  He's not and he never will." 

If that happens, then C&G can kiss their dream of new large and sporty RWD cars coming back good bye!

I'm starting to wonder if it would even matter if CAFE went up. I wouldn't be half surprised to suddenly see a "rise" in gas prices after that happened.

[OshKoshBerJosh]

Bush's tax cuts are an example of a sound idea implemented horribly.  The biggest tax cuts should go to the lowest income brackets and on up.  He was giving massive tax breaks to the already wealthy who didn't need it.

I agree that tax cuts have their time and place. I was just saying that PResident Bush implies (if not outright states) that tax cuts are always appropriate.

I also agree that the bulk of tax cuts should go to the lowest bracket and not the highest. There is something else to consider, though. Tax cuts are great for those who have jobs, but they do nothing in the short-term for people who have already lost their jobs. The benefits of tax cuts in terms of job creation are not realized soon enough to help those who are desperately looking for any source of income.

[Snate]

I think his original logic was that by giving tax cuts to the wealthy (who he assumed ran the businesses of the world) that they would suddenly use they extra money to hire a bunch of new people.

Last time I checked...the real world doesn't work that way.

[OshKoshBerJosh]

I think his original logic was that by giving tax cuts to the wealthy (who he assumed ran the businesses of the world) that they would suddenly use they extra money to hire a bunch of new people.

Last time I checked...the real world doesn't work that way.

I'm sure some of those tax cuts lined the pockets of executves in the form of big bonuses for "improved bottom lines".

[Croc]

No bailouts, no tax breaks, no help from taxpayers.  Comments like, "Bush is a f@#king moron," et al, really show a lack of depth on the subject, not to mention immaturity and a lack of credible arguments.

Edit:  If my tax dollars go to bail out the Big 2 I would be even less inclined to purchase their cars.

The history books will not be kind to G.W. Bush at all. Mark my words, and remember: you heard it here first. I'm not taking the time to list every grievance I have against him, but here is a short list: Iraq & WMDs that never existed, Patriot Act, Harriet Miers, his inability to separate Church & State, lack of good economic policy, butchering of the English language, intense and misdirected hate directed toward certain special interest minority groups, blatant disregard for diplomacy.

PS: I used to support him, too; that is, until I got my head out of my butt.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Croc

[greg_nate]

Bush will help if he must. He will not want to until GM or Ford really need it.

The big 3 must build great cars to survive. They will.

Oh, you mean help the same way he helped Katrina victims?

That sure makes me feel good.

[Cory Wolfe]

The history books will not be kind to G.W. Bush at all.  Mark my words, and remember: you heard it here first.  I'm not taking the time to list every grievance I have against him, but here is a short list: Iraq & WMDs that never existed, Patriot Act, Harriet Miers, his inability to separate Church & State, lack of good economic policy, butchering of the English language, intense and misdirected hate directed toward certain special interest minority groups, blatant disregard for diplomacy.

PS: I used to support him, too; that is, until I got my head out of my butt.

[carlover23]

No bailouts, no tax breaks, no help from taxpayers.  Comments like, "Bush is a f@#king moron," et al, really show a lack of depth on the subject, not to mention immaturity and a lack of credible arguments.

Edit:  If my tax dollars go to bail out the Big 2 I would be even less inclined to purchase their cars.

That's what the Japanese government does for their companies.

[BuickEight]

Bush's history of oil industry connections and Cheney's past with Halliburton are proof enough....they are corrupt, vile, evil men...

And don't forget that Bush's first oil business partner is Osama Bin Laden's brother...seriously. Funny how nobody seems to know that.

[BuickEight]

You still have yet to prove anything you're saying.  The Bush administration is not corrupt, it's conservative.  And it doesnt believe in the easy way out, it believes in the right way.

WOW...that must be a really freakin' big rock you're under. It scares the &#036;h&#33; out of me to know that people like you exist. And why do Repugs claim to be conservatives? That is such a damn JOKE! Lets see...TRILLIONS of dollars in deficit=conservative? What the hell is wrong with you people? And yes, Bush is in fact CORRUPT to the max. Get your head out of your f%*@&n ass.

[sciguy_0504]

It's nice to see you still have your teenage head up your ass. And you want to talk about immaturity?  What the hell do you know about anything?

Considering that reply, it seems like you don't know that much, either. :AH-HA_wink:

[sciguy_0504]

Bush's tax cuts are an example of a sound idea implemented horribly.  The biggest tax cuts should go to the lowest income brackets and on up.  He was giving massive tax breaks to the already wealthy who didn't need it.

Media sure brainwashed you, didn't it?

[Fah-King-Cool]

Hey, he had no problem putting it to us Canadians with a softwood lumber tax/tariff, even though it's illegal and was tossed by every court on both sides of the border. It's just Europeans and Asians he won't stand up to, just us Canucks.

we still hear about the soft wood lumber deal. even though it has been a little bit./ dont forget the canaidan cattle issue also.

[Snate]

Media sure brainwashed you, didn't it?

Sure lets go with that if it makes you feel better.

[Croc]

Media sure brainwashed you, didn't it?

Faux News brainwash YOU?

[Flybrian]

I realize the line is thin, but let's stay on the graceful side of it, shall we, gents?

[prinzSD]

I realize the line is thin, but let's stay on the graceful side of it, shall we, gents?

I agree, this is getting tedious with all the insults. Let's bring it down a notch or two and I did read all the posts so far, so llet's not get too political.

[drew770]

The loss of American jobs has been going on for decades and the Bush administration is no different.

And for those that feel that a democrat can do better well Clinton didn't do anything to stop the unfair trade practices of other countries either.

Both parties have failed the american worker!

Large media both the Clinton News Network and Faux News have failed to promote the American side of Globalization.

When we Americans finally decide to put both parties out of work then maybe we can see some action in Washington.

And what is so wrong with the govt saying that we will give the "same help" as the Japanese govt gives their manufactors?

[OshKoshBerJosh]

The loss of American jobs has been going on for decades and the Bush administration is no different.

And for those that feel that a democrat can do better well Clinton didn't do anything to stop the unfair trade practices of other countries either.

I can't speak to Clinton's successes or failures since I was an aware teen during his presidency, but the democratic party has had a long standing tradition of representing the working class. If the dems could re-engerize this commitment, they stand a much better chance of actually tackling some of these problems.

All Republicans are not corrupt and all Democrats are not squeeky clean. The balance tends to shift when one party retakes congress. The success of the majority party tends to breed corruption as a manifestation of power. When the next change occurs, I hope the Dems can break this cycle and prove that they are the party with a backbone.

One note of observation, the level of corruption in Congress increased much more rapidly under Republican control than it did under Democratic control. Again, we come back to the ideologies behind the two parties. One is far more suseptible to ethics breaches than the other.

[Hogans_Heroes]

Old post:

Saving the X (Auto) Industry:

“The X industry is sick. The X industry is dying. It must be saved. It can be saved only by a tariff, by higher prices, or by subsidy. If it is allowed to die, workers will be thrown on the streets. Their landlords, grocers, butchers, clothing stores, and local motion pictures will lose business, and depression will spread in ever-widening circles. But if the X industry, by prompt action of Congress is saved – ah then!” – Henry Hazlitt (or, as his friends liked to call him "H.H.")

[sciguy_0504]

Faux News brainwash YOU?

Perhaps it has but at least I am able to get a different perspective rather than listening to the same old MSM. There is a reason the Faux News Channel is the highest rated cable news channel in TV, just like there is a reason newspapers across the country are experiencing dreadful drops in readership and circulation. The MSM lost its power in 2004 with the election. I think the faux military documents did it in.

[haypops]

By what stretch of the imagination do you claim that fox news is not the MSM!!! Prove that it is not. (the last sentance was added becuase that seems to be the standard level of argument around here; first person to demand proof wins)

[Flybrian]

Guys, second time. Let's chill on the arguing over things not realted to the article.

[G. David Felt]

The loss of American jobs has been going on for decades and the Bush administration is no different.

And for those that feel that a democrat can do better well Clinton didn't do anything to stop the unfair trade practices of other countries either.

Both parties have failed the american worker!

Large media both the Clinton News Network and Faux News have failed to promote the American side of Globalization.

When we Americans finally decide to put both parties out of work then maybe we can see some action in Washington.

And what is so wrong with the govt saying that we will give the "same help" as the Japanese govt gives their manufactors?

Amazing how we are back to the same old Nixon Watergate Corruption under our current administration. Reality is the Republicans call themselves conservative yet are the worst liberal spenders around. The Democrates call themselves Liberal and yet are very conservative and have worked hard for balanced budget.

Reality is a need for balance between the two parties as history has proven when one or the other controlles all things in the government things get out of balance.

Much the same way in the auto industry. Things have been out of balance and are only now coming into balance. Quality of auto's as proven with the recent reviews of the Buick and large SUV's.

We do not need our government bailing out companies. As a free market, there needs to be a consolidation of airplane companies and auto plants. The unions served their need in the early 1900's but have become lazy and corrupt over the years. The exec's have also become lazy and corrupt as well.

At this point we need new leadership or a change in the current leadership to get the companies in a competitive situation and deal with the debt of each company. Changing the unions from pension to 401K and going away from the current union contracts will be a big change and saving pin as to if Ford and GM can survive the oncoming 5 years and there after.