On The Fence ...

[Blake Noble]

I'm debating on if Year One's new 17" Repro Rally Wheel, which emulates those seen on '79 Z/28s, would look right on the '98 Maro?

I know Year One's Repro 17" Snowflakes look excellent on 4th-gen Birds ...

[daves87rs]

I like it!

[z28luvr01]

I think I say go or it. Too bad i didn't have a pic of your car clean...

[Blake Noble]

I really like it. Thanks for the 'Shop, Z.

I couldn't have done it myself because free portable certain versions of CS3 don't work with my Windows 7 laptop.

You know, the late 4th-gen F Cars really seemed to have a certain visual aura to them that linked them with their 2nd-gen predecessors more than anything else. The '98+ Camaro nose really makes me think of a '70 - '73 model car. The '98+ Firebird had the same "Batmobile" aggressiveness that the '77 - '78 model cars did. Not to mention the bubble glass of the hatch on these cars is directly descended from the look of the wrap-around backlight of the late 2nd-gen cars. They weren't, however, blatant rip-offs of their each respective forefather; they each were their own distinctive design.

Edited January 19, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

Looks good on it.

[Blake Noble]

Woo-hoo. Post 10,001. I officially have no life.

Anywho, I have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be those wheels that will be going on my car. The more I see the chop I like it. They have a similar, clean basic five-spoke design that has made me gravitate to AR TT2s in the past, but with classic Chevrolet heritage baked in.

[Blake Noble]

I now just realized how nice those wheels would look on my Monte SS if I still had it.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Go for it, love the retro look!

Doesn't seem to matter what era they're on they look good much like the classic Buick and Olds rally wheel designs.

[ocnblu]

I think they'll look awesome on there. What size tire can you fit without rubbing?

[Camino LS6]

Those would look sooooo good on the wagon...

[Blake Noble]

I think they'll look awesome on there. What size tire can you fit without rubbing?

The stock rims and tires on my car are 16" so I'm just about certain 4th-gens can fit 17" rims and tires without any issues. Of course, I'll also eventually be installing a 1" - 2" lowering kit on my car, so that's an unknown variable I'll have to deal with.

Edited January 20, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

Well I'm not expert of F bodies but so long as you get the appropriate tires you should be able to fit up to 20" no problem so long as they aren't too wide.

I think going up to 18"s would make world of difference (more than 17" would) in filling out the wheel wells. They did for my car.

Plus you're not going to big as to negatively effect ride quality and braking performance.

[SuperSport623]

wow.... i was planning on getting some aluminum racing wheels for the nova, but i am contemplating those 17's (still shed in a sticky drag radial for tractions sake)

[RjION]

I don't like that wheel never did like that wheel.

[Blake Noble]

wow.... i was planning on getting some aluminum racing wheels for the nova, but i am contemplating those 17's (still shed in a sticky drag radial for tractions sake)

Do it! Those rims would look especially awesome on your Nova.

I don't like that wheel never did like that wheel.

I don't like your mother either, never did like your mother. But you don't see me marching into one of your threads to announce it.

[ocnblu]

I like that wheel always did like that wheel.

[Robert Hall]

I like that wheel design. A 20 inch version would look great on the '10 Camaro, I think.

[Robert Hall]

ork with my Windows 7 laptop.

You know, the late 4th-gen F Cars really seemed to have a certain visual aura to them that linked them with their 2nd-gen predecessors more than anything else. The '98+ Camaro nose really makes me think of a '70 - '73 model car. The '98+ Firebird had the same "Batmobile" aggressiveness that the '77 - '78 model cars did. Not to mention the bubble glass of the hatch on these cars is directly descended from the look of the wrap-around backlight of the late 2nd-gen cars. They weren't, however, blatant rip-offs of their each respective forefather; they each were their own distinctive design.

Interesting..I've never thought of the 4th and 2nd as being visually related, always viewed the 4th as a sleeker, more rounded evolution of 3rd gen themes...

[Blake Noble]

Well, I'm going to back the fun bus up. Things are not looking good for the Camaro ...

[ocnblu]

wut

[Blake Noble]

I 'spose I have some 'splainin to do.

Well, here's the four-one-one: I left my house today to make a trip into town. I head out and for the first 4 or 5 miles, the Camaro is doing great, running like a top. I turn off of the main highway to take a shortcut and without warning or provocation the SES light begins to flash then comes on steady. I'm not happy about seeing this, but I first think, oh it's probably just the EGR valve finally going bad (after all, there's a reason GM deleted the EGR system on the 3800 F-Body cars for 2001), I'll get it taken care of this week. No big deal.

As I keep driving, I start noticing a quite dramatic reduction in power. The car is reluctant to make it up most inclines. A miss has started to develop at idle then eventually all engine speeds. The SES will flash then go steady, flash then go steady. I know this isn't good, so I decide to press on into town to make a quick stop at Advance Auto Parts to have the code read. The code returned was an engine misfire, cylinder one (I don't remember the exact code at the moment, i.e. the OBDII ID digits; I was a little too pissed off to remember to write them down for reference).

Knowing good and well that driving it immediately back home and then making a future trip back to town could make the problem worse, I decide to reluctantly take it to a garage just down the street. I tell the guys I know the code returned is a engine misfire code, cylinder one and to check the spark plug and plug wire. Because I brought it in about an hour and a half until the shop closed, the mechanic could only get to the spark plug before my ride home picked me up. The plug, while a little dirty, wasn't fouled-out and had the correct gap. They're going to test the resistance on the plug wire tomorrow. If that is eliminated, then I know there's something nasty going on. It could be a multitude of things, bad fuel injection circuitry ... a solid list full of expensive repairs basically.

[AAS]

Was the engine misfiring consistently, i.e. every cycle of the firing order? Or was it intermittent? If intermittent, was there a ticking sound to go along with the misfire?

I ask because I once had a 'misfire' in the SS. Turned out to be some bad insulation on a plug wire, which was allowing for an arc (short) between the plug wire and the head. It didn't happen every cycle, but every time it happened there was a tick and a lack of power.

[loki]

while worse than what happened to my car.. just replacing the wires.. maybe the coil packs (from sis's 3.4 to my 3.1) worked for me. mine was just an intermittent idle roughness up to about 1500 to 2k, depending....

[Blake Noble]

Was the engine misfiring consistently, i.e. every cycle of the firing order? Or was it intermittent? If intermittent, was there a ticking sound to go along with the misfire?

I ask because I once had a 'misfire' in the SS. Turned out to be some bad insulation on a plug wire, which was allowing for an arc (short) between the plug wire and the head. It didn't happen every cycle, but every time it happened there was a tick and a lack of power.

The misfire was consistent with every cycle.

However, I feel I should also add that you could stand outside of the car from a distance of about 20 feet and actually hear the misfire. It made me think of a knocking rod. I don't think that's the problem, though, because it wasn't quite as loud. Call that assumption hopeless optimism if you wish.

Edited January 26, 2010 by whiteknight

[ocnblu]

It doesn't sound like a horrible horrible problem. Let us know.

[Blake Noble]

There will be an update tomorrow. If it passes the plug wire test, I might consider having the shop run a compression test on the number one cylinder for good measure if the price is reasonable.

[Blake Noble]

Here's the update: P0300 OBD II code (random cylinder misfire). Plugs: good. Wires: good, no heat damage. Compression test: 150psi. From there I told the guy to check the coil pack and we found there was corrosion on the contact point of the number one cylinder coil pack, so I thought it best to have it replaced and hoped it would fix it.

Nope.

It didn't.

It still throws a P0300 code and the guy who was working on it said that the misfire wasn't just the number one cylinder, but at the number four cylinder as well.

I have my reservations on that because if the misfire was localized to cylinders one and four, the codes would be P0301 and P0304, which they are not. I wish that were so because this would be a hell of a lot easier to figure out.

In any case, whatever has to be done to this car isn't going to be cheap. A general list of what it could be, with what my bets are against stricken out:

• Catalytic converter.
  
• EGR valve.
  
• Faulty injector(s).
  
• Burned valve.
  
• Camshaft position sensor.
  
• Defective engine computer.
  

Yippie. Yet again I manage to have shitty luck with a car I've bought and in a record time almost exactly like the Regal after I first traded for it.

So help me god, I am so pissed off I can barely see straight.

Edited January 27, 2010 by whiteknight

[ocnblu]

No car of that age and mileage is going to be perfect, Jacket.

[vonVeezelsnider]

That really sucks YJ, It seems you can't catch a break no matter what you buy. Hopefully you are able to get this one sewn up relatively cheaply

[Blake Noble]

No car of that age and mileage is going to be perfect, Jacket.

I know that. Little imperfections to fix and catching up on a little routine maintenance, I don't think anything of. In fact, I like it when a previous owner leaves me a few inexpensive things to do with the car after I buy it.

But to have a major, potentially serious and expensive issue develop in less than a month's time of ownership? I simply have no tolerance of anything like that.

I know the old adage "You get what you pay for" but this car was simply too good when I first bought it. Countless people admired the car and were amazed at what I paid for it. It ran great. In fact, I took it on a small trip out of town only a few days after I first bought it and it ran like new the entire time.

I expected a lot from this car and I am highly disappointed.

Edited January 27, 2010 by whiteknight

[z28luvr01]

Some useful info

Check the "Fuel System" section. You should be able to diagnose the fuel injectors yourself with a multimeter. Also note that cylinders 1 and 4 use the same coil pack (as I suspected).

[Blake Noble]

That really sucks YJ, It seems you can't catch a break no matter what you buy. Hopefully you are able to get this one sewn up relatively cheaply

Thanks von.

I hope so too, but I've been down a similar road before ...

Edited January 27, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

P0300 means either random or multiple misfire, it's a generic code that the car will throw. It's telling you more than one cylinder misfired is all. I would keep a close eye and see if it changes. Clear the codes. It's possible the next time you could have different misfire codes. If that's the case it could be a different problem VS the same two misfiring again.

[Blake Noble]

Some useful info

Check the "Fuel System" section. You should be able to diagnose the fuel injectors yourself with a multimeter. Also note that cylinders 1 and 4 use the same coil pack (as I suspected).

I'll check the FI here soon. It's not the coil pack; the 1 and 4 coil pack was replaced with a brand new AC Delco one.

[Blake Noble]

So I took the car for another spin, trying to find any clues I've overlooked. Found one when I was looking underneath the car and trying to pinpoint the knocking sound I mentioned before: the catalytic converter is always going red hot. So this is looking like it's either a bad fuel injector (a cat burning raw fuel will glow hot) or the last problem I thought it could be, the converter itself.

I'm praying that the converter is the culprit.

I'm happy ... still just a little irritated, though.

Edited January 27, 2010 by whiteknight

[z28luvr01]

Do you happen to smell gas in the exhaust while the cat is glowing, or at any other time while driving the car?

Whatever the case, I think things are looking up for you. Even if it's the injectors, I don't think it's that bad of a job, at least not compared to the crankshaft position sensor or the PCM. You may even be able to change them yourself. I'm not sure about the 3800, but I've read up on how to replace the injectors on the Ecotec and it doesn't seem that bad. They may even just need a good cleaning.

[Blake Noble]

It could even be the O2 sensor, forgot to consider that. I think sometimes a bad O2 sensor will allow raw gas into the converter as well. It's my last part to eliminate.

I wonder, though, how long exactly does it take for a converter glowing red hot to start melting internally. I do know the heat has been so extreme at one point in time over the past two days that the glue that held the dealer protective plastic coating on the passenger side floormat has begun to bubble and loose adhesion.

Do you happen to smell gas in the exhaust while the cat is glowing, or at any other time while driving the car?

It actually sometimes smells like the air/fuel mixture might be too rich (then again, it smelled that way from the day I bought it). You only smell it outside of the car. The stench isn't so intrusive you smell it while you're inside of the car. Driving the car home from the shop today, there was a bizarre odor in the car as well. Not like the usual "rotten eggs" smell you get with a bad cat, but something else ...

Edited January 27, 2010 by whiteknight

[Intrepidation]

Do you happen to smell gas in the exhaust while the cat is glowing, or at any other time while driving the car?

Whatever the case, I think things are looking up for you. Even if it's the injectors, I don't think it's that bad of a job, at least not compared to the crankshaft position sensor or the PCM. You may even be able to change them yourself. I'm not sure about the 3800, but I've read up on how to replace the injectors on the Ecotec and it doesn't seem that bad. They may even just need a good cleaning.

I dunno about F-Bodies, a crankshaft sensor or camshaft sensor for my car anyway is a 15 minute job.

[Blake Noble]

Replaced the cat, still not a single improvement. Gave it a dose of injector cleaner, still nothing.

I'm starting to reach wits and end with this stupid car and it's clearly becoming a money pit. I'm close to getting rid of it. I won't get a single dime of my money back on it and there's not a soul who would want to trade for it. Awesome. I've managed to get fucked on another damn car.

Lmfao "A new car will be better than the old ones you like to drive. It's the smart thing to buy." Sure.

Edited January 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[GMTruckGuy74]

Lmfao "A new car will be better than the old ones you like to drive. It's the smart thing to buy." Sure.

Well, I don't know about you, but I don't consider a car from the '90s a "NEW" car!! A new car is one that you purchase with 'new' miles (usually under 20), and you're the first owner. Buying a "newer" car than what you've been buying, or a "new-to-you" car is still not a new car. I miss having a new car and hope that sometime soon I can get a new vehicle to replace my "old" used car purchase.

[SAmadei]

I don't know... if your thinking of letting it go for around what you paid, I may be interested in it.

Considering how fast it went downhill, I'm not so sure the problem is that awful... and worst case scenario, I'd stab another engine in it. The car looks to be in good shape otherwise.

[z28luvr01]

Replaced the cat, still not a single improvement. Gave it a dose of injector cleaner, still nothing.

I'm starting to reach wits and end with this stupid car and it's clearly becoming a money pit. I'm close to getting rid of it. I won't get a single dime of my money back on it and there's not a soul who would want to trade for it. Awesome. I've managed to get fucked on another damn car.

Lmfao "A new car will be better than the old ones you like to drive. It's the smart thing to buy." Sure.

Running injector cleaner may not be enough to clean it if they're really that bad. Consider that it has 123,000 miles, and assume the previous owners used crappy gas and never once ran a bottle of injector cleaner through. There's probably baked on deposits that won't come off with an in-car injector cleaning. They might actualy need to be taken out of the rails and run through a special machine designed to clean injectors. Expect to pay $25-$35 an injector. More info here

Did you check the resistance on the injectors? That will tell you if they're bad.

[Justin Bimmer]

Replaced the cat, still not a single improvement. Gave it a dose of injector cleaner, still nothing.

I'm starting to reach wits and end with this stupid car and it's clearly becoming a money pit. I'm close to getting rid of it. I won't get a single dime of my money back on it and there's not a soul who would want to trade for it. Awesome. I've managed to get fucked on another damn car.

Lmfao "A new car will be better than the old ones you like to drive. It's the smart thing to buy." Sure.

Um you should know better than anybody here that we didn't tell you to buy an F-body in Kentucky for your daily driver.

[Blake Noble]

Running injector cleaner may not be enough to clean it if they're really that bad. Consider that it has 123,000 miles, and assume the previous owners used crappy gas and never once ran a bottle of injector cleaner through. There's probably baked on deposits that won't come off with an in-car injector cleaning. They might actualy need to be taken out of the rails and run through a special machine designed to clean injectors. Expect to pay $25-$35 an injector. More info here

Did you check the resistance on the injectors? That will tell you if they're bad.

Well, I bought what was needed to run a fuel psi test and it's returning somewhere in the neighborhood of 43 to 48 psi. Factory specs are 48 to 55 psi. It's on the low-end of the spectrum but nothing that would really suggest a dead injector.

Um you should know better than anybody here that we didn't tell you to buy an F-body in Kentucky for your daily driver.

The state the car comes from is honestly a moot point. Really, where's the solid, unquestionable proof that if this car came from New York it wouldn't be doing the same thing? There isn't any.

As it turns out this car was originally purchased in Indiana as stated on the original window sticker, it wasn't bought brand new in Kentucky and it's first owner obviously wasn't from Kentucky. I guess the car found its way to Richmond, Kentucky where it was bought by its second owner at Jack Burford Chevrolet, a local preacher (my mother recognized the guy when I found a photo of him and his wife jammed in behind the glovebox door along with a Valvoline instant oil change receipt) because the original owner moved down here or Burford Chevrolet found it at an auction on the IN/KY border. So there you go. Most used cars are not indigenous to the state you buy them in. Who's to say that if I bought the same exact car in California it didn't originally come from Kentucky?

I'll say it again: moot point.

The fact it is also an F-Body is a moot point as well. Sure, I know some owners aren't exactly bright and "rag" them out to extreme levels. I've seen that first hand. But who's to say that if I bought a turd J-Body in just as good of shape as my Camaro it wouldn't do the same thing.

It wasn't just people here telling me to buy a later model car. It was everyone I knew because they thumbed their noses up when they found out what I went through with the Monte, Regal, and Cutlass to some extent (getting screwed on the paint job). I suppose I'm bad to cave in under massive pressure. Usually I'm more hard-headed.

Edited January 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[Justin Bimmer]

Ok, ill give you the state issue. But still, I'm curious as to what the F body forums have to say about this. I'm sure your car is not the first one that this has happened to. I have a family friend who is a 30 year GM mechanic and he can tell me whats wrong with my car from a phone conversation just based on the fact that he has wrenched a thousand Grand Prixs.

[Intrepidation]

Yeah state has nothing to do with find a lemon...that's the thing with used cars, it's always a gamble...no matter what the age.

As far as your misfire issue...it certainly doesn't sound like a terminal illness. I wouldn't go giving up on this car after the first problem crops up. Maybe you should try taking it to a dealer and having them look at it. They have diagnostic tools normal shops don't, and might be able to better pinpoint the problem, and as it happens.

[Blake Noble]

Ok, ill give you the state issue. But still, I'm curious as to what the F body forums have to say about this.

So far, the dudes at Camaro5 forums have only suggested the possibilities of the O2 sensors and the fuel filter.

I'm sure your car is not the first one that this has happened to.

Yep, it's a common problem. Usually it stems from the fact that the 3800 V6 F-Bodies do not have adequate air flowing to the back of the engine to cool the coil packs and plug wires. There was even a recall regarding the plug wires that upgraded all affected ones to AC Delco pieces that had better heat shielding. Replacing and occasionally upgrading these parts will correct the problem more times often than not ... except in the case of my car.

I have a family friend who is a 30 year GM mechanic and he can tell me whats wrong with my car from a phone conversation just based on the fact that he has wrenched a thousand Grand Prixs.

Right when I need a luxury like that, I don't have it. So I'm on my own.

Yeah state has nothing to do with find a lemon...that's the thing with used cars, it's always a gamble...no matter what the age.

As far as your misfire issue...it certainly doesn't sound like a terminal illness. I wouldn't go giving up on this car after the first problem crops up. Maybe you should try taking it to a dealer and having them look at it. They have diagnostic tools normal shops don't, and might be able to better pinpoint the problem, and as it happens.

GM service department prices ... ewwwww. It cost $125 to have a muffler shop replace the cat. Jack Burford's price? Close to a thousand dollars. Yeah, I'm not exactly loaded. Maybe I'm a horrible miser and I don't realize it, but c'mon ... $125 versus $1,000?

Edited January 28, 2010 by whiteknight

[SAmadei]

Well, I bought what was needed to run a fuel psi test and it's returning somewhere in the neighborhood of 43 to 48 psi. Factory specs are 48 to 55 psi. It's on the low-end of the spectrum but nothing that would really suggest a dead injector.

Low fuel pressure becomes a problem with the FI very quickly. Did you replace the filter? Perhaps that would bump it high enough to eliminate it as a problem... I would also try tapping the fuel filter, to knock junk off the element to see if it tickles the problem.

[vonVeezelsnider]

GM service department prices ... ewwwww. It cost $125 to have a muffler shop replace the cat. Jack Burford's price? Close to a thousand dollars. Yeah, I'm not exactly loaded. Maybe I'm a horrible miser and I don't realize it, but c'mon ... $125 versus $1,000?

Shop the dealerships out... they sometimes vary on charges like that. The Chev/Cadillac dealer I deal with charges a flat rate (68.00$ I think) for diagnosis fees and refunds it if you have it fixed with them or if they recognize the problem but cannot get to the bottom of it.

[Intrepidation]

Also diagnostics take less time, should be an hour maybe two max. Might cost $100 or so to find out, but if you find the problem then you can just fix it yourself or have a shop do it.