.....

[BrewSwillis]

Toyota truely are evil geniuses. They know that the West and East coasts have, and will continue to support them to the fullest. So what can they do to penetrate the hardest market??.......the domestic (somewhat) loyal midwest and Southern truck driving rednecks??.......build their few American based plants in the South. That way people down there will say "Yep.....my brother's best friend Bobby Ray's cousin Earl works for Toyoter.....I guess I could drive a Toyoter truck since they are building plants down here".

Then all they would have left to conquer, would be the midwesterners that are working for the Big 3.......and that wouldn't take much......because there probably won't be much of the Big 3 left by then.

[BrewSwillis]

QUOTE(haypops @ Jan 22 2006, 06:05 PM)

So you are saying that Honda doesn't honor their warranty?

AFAIK, wear and tear items aren't covered by any warranty, short of full maintenance programs. Honda has been unusually generous with their warranties, often paying for user error (dropping a clip into the engine bay and having it shred a belt, for instance) and even whole transmissions despite an expired warranty.

Doesn't sound like Honda wanted to replace their own faulty/non-truck struts:

His tame driving wasn't enough apparently, as he returned to L.A. noting that the Ridgeline seemed to be handling a bit strange. A check by the dealer revealed that all four struts were blown out and needed to be replaced. The dealer initially signaled that it might not replace them under warranty, but in a subsequent phone call agreed to replace them as a "one time good faith" gesture.

[haypops]

Doesn't sound like Honda wanted to replace their own faulty/non-truck struts:

Most warranties today are described as bumber to bumber, at least GM's are. I have heard rumors that Ford is "tight" on their warranty claims, but do not know how to confirm this. The caveat generally given with these warranties if generally that wear items such as brake pads and shoes are not covered as well as windshield wiper blades. I don't think shock absorbing devices are specifically mentioned, but I could be mistaken. It seems that if the failure is early in the vehicles use the manufacturer should except responsibility as Honda finally did hear after some implausable denial.

[Hogans_Heroes]

Rumors have it the new Tundra's powertrain options range from a V6, two V8s, a diesel and a hybrid.

And a diesel-hybrid. From Hino. I knew this Tundra would be a tremendous improvement over the current gen, but wondered if only to myself about these 250,000 unit projections. I think it's clear now, seeing this pic, they'll hit the very high targets being set for them.

[Polish_Kris]

THAT is what's wrong with america.... The fact that it has NO pride, NO common sense, NO intelligence and NO ass to back what made this country great up.

I dunno, everytime I cross the border I see American flags on everyone's doorstep.

No Common sense, No Intelligence?

I'm sorry, there is NOBODY smarter or better than YOU in the United States. I didn't know you are the superior interllect of the world.

You have just insulted most of the people on this board, you basically calling all Americans Prideless, Dumb, and Incompitent. You know what I call you, an ignorant, shallow-minded, one-sided individual. I'm Canadian, but even I think you took that comment too far!

[Polish_Kris]

Why not just name names?

He's talking about You

[evok]

The new Tundra's will be monsters, riding on 3 different wheelbases. And the they will be big. And I mean big. Bigger than their their Big 3 counter parts. Toyota has done their homework on these trucks. Lets put it this way, these will have the longest wheelbases in their class.

This is not a shot fired across the bow of the Big Three. The Tundra, is a torpedo fired directly at mid ship.

I am on the fence if Toyota will convert 200k - 300k buyers and fill the plant with orders. But, if a product can take on the Big Three's bread and butter this is it.

[BrewSwillis]

The new Tundra's will be monsters, riding on 3 different wheelbases.  And the they will be big. And I mean big.  Bigger than their their Big 3 counter parts.  Toyota has done their homework on these trucks. Lets put it this way, these will have the longest wheelbases in their class. 

This is not a shot fired across the bow of the Big Three.  The Tundra, is a torpedo fired directly at mid ship.

I am on the fence if Toyota will convert 200k - 300k buyers and fill the plant with orders. But, if a product can take on the Big Three's bread and butter this is it.

Great, just in time for the $3.00+ /gallon gas party. I wonder if Toyota will catch any heat for making the biggest trucks on the planet in spite of this energy crisis?? What do you think?

This is not a shot fired across the bow of the Big Three.  The Tundra, is a torpedo fired directly at mid ship.

That's cute. Are you practicing for an auto journalism career? I don't think the other auto journalists need your help coming up with funny little cliches. I'll bet you that this one, or one very similar to it, is actually used in a major publication.

[Matt276]

The new Tundra's will be monsters, riding on 3 different wheelbases.  And the they will be big. And I mean big.  Bigger than their their Big 3 counter parts.  Toyota has done their homework on these trucks. Lets put it this way, these will have the longest wheelbases in their class. 

This is not a shot fired across the bow of the Big Three.  The Tundra, is a torpedo fired directly at mid ship.

I am on the fence if Toyota will convert 200k - 300k buyers and fill the plant with orders. But, if a product can take on the Big Three's bread and butter this is it.

Is bigger better? Could it be too much? Sometimes when you try too hard to be the best, you miss something. But I'm a bit scared.

[Northstar]

This is not a shot fired across the bow of the Big Three.  The Tundra, is a torpedo fired directly at mid ship.

If only GM would take that kind of aim at Toyota's bread and butter (Camry, Corolla) and fight back. Maybe it will take more market share loss for them to wake up and do something about it.

[sciguy_0504]

Great, just in time for the $3.00+ /gallon gas party.  I wonder if Toyota will catch any heat for making the biggest trucks on the planet in spite of this energy crisis??  What do you think?

Considering that Toyota is putting out two, possibly three (new Tundra and Sequoia, possible new LX) new large trucks while GM is putting out nine, who do you really think will catch more heat?

Wait, I already know the answer. "GM because Toyota ALWAYS gets a free pass!"

[The O.C.]

That's debatable....

Since females make the MAJORITY of major purchase decisions in this country, why shouldn't the 900's look a little softer???

.....you mean "softer" like many people on here bitch about Toyota doing....?

Why can GM go "softer" and you love it.....but people are "idiots" because they buy "bland" Toyotas instead of GM cars?

[The O.C.]

Wait, I already know the answer.  "GM because Toyota ALWAYS gets a free pass!"

MAN this is getting OLD......take your blinders off......

[cmattson]

What is forgotten here is brand-loyalty. The big-3 enjoy loyalty in their full-size line that is similar to what Toyota and Honda enjoy in their cars. I'm certain that the next Toyo Tundra will be a wonderfully competant vehicle, but unless it can substantially improve on what the domestics offer, then it's sales gains will be limited to being incremental in nature.

[The O.C.]

What is forgotten here is brand-loyalty.  The big-3 enjoy loyalty in their full-size line that is similar to what Toyota and Honda enjoy in their cars.  I'm certain that the next Toyo Tundra will be a wonderfully competant vehicle, but unless it can substantially improve on what the domestics offer, then it's sales gains will be limited to being incremental in nature.

I think the important point in debating the successes/failures of Toyota (and specifically in regards to this new Tundra) is that the Big Three used to OWN the midsize sedan segment. No one came close.

Look at where we are now.

So you simply cannot take this Tundra lightly. IT may not outsell F-150 and Silverado, but what will it's future successor do, say in about 20 years?

[sciguy_0504]

MAN this is getting OLD......take your blinders off......

I wasn't personally saying that. I was just trying to save the people who would reply with that sentence some time.

[haypops]

What is forgotten here is brand-loyalty.  The big-3 enjoy loyalty in their full-size line that is similar to what Toyota and Honda enjoy in their cars.

I don't think that Dodge enjoys the owner loyality that Big pickups from Ford and GM do. I suspect that Toyota will take sales from Dodge and Nissan, maybe just a little from Ford as the 150 is getting a little old and the heavy duties are having powertrain problems.

[turbo200]

I think the important point in debating the successes/failures of Toyota (and specifically in regards to this new Tundra) is that the Big Three used to OWN the midsize sedan segment.  No one came close.

Look at where we are now.

So you simply cannot take this Tundra lightly.  IT may not outsell F-150 and Silverado, but what will it's future successor do, say in about 20 years?

yes, loyalty can be fickle.....

[turbo200]

That's cute.  Are you practicing for an auto journalism career?  I don't think the other auto journalists need your help coming up with funny little cliches.  I'll bet you that this one, or one very similar to it, is actually used in a major publication.

yeah, because it's smart

[daves87rs]

Aren't we a little too worried about this?

These trucks are not even out yet-makes them hard to compare......

Yes, the Tundra will sell, but how much has yet to be decided...

...it depends on what it can do.

I think the new Silverado will make it to the party just fine , regardless of looks......

Toyota have new engines? The Silverado has given you choice for years..

Point is, you all need to relax.....

[Northstar]

I think the important point in debating the successes/failures of Toyota (and specifically in regards to this new Tundra) is that the Big Three used to OWN the midsize sedan segment.  No one came close.

Look at where we are now.

So you simply cannot take this Tundra lightly.  IT may not outsell F-150 and Silverado, but what will it's future successor do, say in about 20 years?

Good point, but it seems like the truck market is the opposite of the car market. 20 or so years ago the small truck market was owned by the Japanese. Now, it's probably about 60/40 with the Americans ahead.

Of course there is a lot for the Big 3 to lose in the big truck market, but I don't want to just hand over all of GM's truck buyers without seeing GM's new entries first. The main loyal buyers I could see the Tundra taking is that of the Ram. The F-150 is still a very good truck, and the GMT900s no doubt will be good (I just want to see if they're better than the Tundra), so I don't see a reason for Ford or GM loyalists to jump ship when their products will be very good anyways.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'm very skeptical that Toyota will hit their sales targets. The Trailblazer has one of the ugliest interiors for a midsize SUV, but no SUV could touch its sales other than the Explorer. The Colorado interior is ugly, and only has an I5, but still at the top in sales. The Ranger is almost older than I am, but is still at the top. And now that GM will be putting world class interiors, more powerful, and more efficient engines, and 10x the refinement previously in any GM vehicle into the new trucks, Toyota is going to hit 250,000? I doubt it.

Edited January 24, 2006 by CaddyXLR-V

[Matt276]

The Colorado is not at the top, the Tacoma outsold it easily in 2005.

[evok]

I don't think the other auto journalists need your help coming up with funny little cliches.  I'll bet you that this one, or one very similar to it, is actually used in a major publication.

Wouldn't be the first time I am quoted in the auto press.

[Dsuupr]

blah. Still looks doesn't do much.

[Hudson]

What is forgotten here is brand-loyalty.  The big-3 enjoy loyalty in their full-size line that is similar to what Toyota and Honda enjoy in their cars.  I'm certain that the next Toyo Tundra will be a wonderfully competant vehicle, but unless it can substantially improve on what the domestics offer, then it's sales gains will be limited to being incremental in nature.

I was going to respond to evok's question about volume, but this will probably better answer it.

I was of the thinking that full-sized trucks were all about brand-loyalty, but that's no longer all that important. Things have changed.

When it comes to work trucks (people who actually use their trucks' beds), I believe that brand loyalty still exists. But there's a huge (and growing) number of people who buy pickups because they're cool or "macho." These people aren't loyal to any brand in particular...and may be more loyal to foreign brands. These buyers are a large part of the reason why sales of full-sized pickups have grown so much in the past 10 years or so.

Toyota and Nissan have marketed their vehicles to these people. Ford, GM, and Chrysler still sell their vehicles as if they're going to work on construction sites even though more and more are going for personal use. This is where Toyota (and Nissan) will continue to get their new sales.

Toyota will get 200,000 units easily with the new Tundra. And when the 3/4-ton model arrives in 2009, then you may start to see Toyota actually tap into the "work truck" people with a vengence. But by that time, Toyota will have over 15 years of full-sized truck owners.

[evok]

Toyota will get 200,000 units easily with the new Tundra. And when the 3/4-ton model arrives in 2009, then you may start to see Toyota actually tap into the "work truck" people with a vengence. But by that time, Toyota will have over 15 years of full-sized truck owners.

I see it a little differently but with a big assumption. Toyota can afford to build the trucks and incentivise the product if need be to reach the 200k market. Though I believe the 300k in 2009 is on the verge of being unrealistic. That is unless Toyota just decides to flood the market with product. 2007 my will be a tough year to launch the Tundra with the expected hype of the 900 launch. My assumptions is gas prices remaining where they are today, particularly for the buyer you describe above. All things being equal, the pick up market could grow in 2007 with the new Tundra but I do not see lost sales at the Big 3. Much like with the addition of the Nissan Titan.

But all bets are off if fuel costs go up. The "Macho" buyer in my opinion will rethink something he really does not need. That goes across the board. And usage studies do show, most PU buyer do not need one.

[cmattson]

That's pretty fair speculation. I'd agree with you, Evok. There's no question that Tundra sales will grow (as the population grows, so does automobile sales - go figure). The next Tundra will be more competant as well - and let's face it, Toyota not offering a full-size truck lineup (3/4 ton, 1-ton, diesel, etc) has put some people in the position to buy domestic only because their favorite foreign manufacturer doesn't sell one here. Who knows how large that number is exactly.. one can only guess.

As it is, GM's next-generation truck appears to have enough capability to hold it's own. Toyota's a bit scary because they have the capital to (1) over-content their truck, or (2) discount their entry price. Either one can be considered an incentive-of-sorts. GM and Ford simply can't afford to compete against either scenario for long; which is why it's critical for each to get their financial houses in order asap.

I don't see the truck market playing out like the 1970's car market for several reasons:

1) Emission laws aren't changing. Emission laws crippled the large V8s that populated American cars. If your V8 didn't have a hp advantage, then why buy one? Especially since gas prices were starting to soar, which brings me to...

2) Gas prices pushed Americans towards purchasing smaller, more thrifty automobiles. Nobody foresaw this. Small cars were cheap to transport. They were cheap to build as well -- a key fact when Japan doesn't have the natural resources to manufacturer it's own steel. Japanese auto manufacturers had to have scrap metal shipped in and recycled, which made steel a key expense.

3) Quality. Due to the lack of competition (or stagnant competition), American manfucturers could get away with substandard efforts. That attititude certainly isn't shared today. GM leads in several quality surveys and several GM brands exceed the Toyota brand in quality surveys as well. Unfortunately, in a rush to adapt their product lines to smaller, more fuel efficient automobiles, quality only worsened. Several auto-executives "head in the sand" management approach didn't help things either.

The 1970's were a "perfect storm" of sorts, directed towards domestic automobile manufacturers. They didn't fare the storm well, and they didn't move to correct any of their issues. in any sort of timely manner.

Edited January 24, 2006 by cmattson

[The O.C.]

I wasn't personally saying that.  I was just trying to save the people who would reply with that sentence some time.

<whew>

OK...I'm sorry....

[The O.C.]

All I was saying....is that we may never have one single import truck that sells over 900K units....but let's speculate (for fun) on what the market will look like in 20-30 years....

You'll have Toyota, Nissan, and (gasp) probably even Honda in the market.

It's also a known fact that Kia and Hyundai are investigating the full-size pickup market. What will happen when/if they get involved to?

Finally, with even mfr's like DCX looking at "luxury" pickups off their Benz ML platform, in 20-30 years, the fullsize pickup truck market could be alot different than it is now....

What about BMW? No one thought BMW would EVER build an SUV. And the X5 has been a HUGE success for them and succesfully represents everything a BMW should be in an SUV.

[SingleStylish]

And the X5 has been a HUGE success for them and succesfully represents everything a BMW should be in an SUV.

By that do you mean old, outdated, outclassed, and generally needing replacement??? Come on, BMW isn't the only that builds a good luxury SUV.

[Hudson]

That's pretty fair speculation.  I'd agree with you, Evok.  There's no question that Tundra sales will grow (as the population grows, so does automobile sales - go figure).  The next Tundra will be more competant as well - and let's face it, Toyota not offering a full-size truck lineup (3/4 ton, 1-ton, diesel, etc) has put some people in the position to buy domestic only because their favorite foreign manufacturer doesn't sell one here.  Who knows how large that number is exactly.. one can only guess.

You're right in that Toyota doesn't offer those larger full-sized pickups and it's an unknown how many sales are "lost" for Toyota because of that. But the Over 8,500 GVWR Class 2 ("3/4-ton") and Class 3 ("1-ton") markets are relatively small compared to the standard "1/2-ton" market.

More than half of all full-sized pickups fall into the "1/2-ton" class (Ford F150, Chevrolet Silverado 1500, GMC Sierra 1500, Dodge Ram 1500, Nissan Titan, Toyota Tundra) and the other half is split about 2/3:1/3 between "3/4-ton" and "1-ton" classes. Toyota and Nissan are already playing in the bulk of the market. I don't see them playing with the bigger trucks contributing greatly to their sales numbers. But that day is coming. Toyota will have a "3/4-ton" Tundra in 2009.

[sciguy_0504]

By that do you mean old, outdated, outclassed, and generally needing replacement???  Come on, BMW isn't the only that builds a good luxury SUV.

I think the X5 has aged gracefully. I may be having a brain fart but the only luxury SUV that outclasses the X5, to me, at least, is the RR Sport. Cadillac doesn't compete, Lexus doesn't compete, Benz' M-Class leaves things to be desired, Lincoln doesn't compete, Audi is just coming out with an SUV...

[pow]

I think the X5 has aged gracefully.  I may be having a brain fart but the only luxury SUV that outclasses the X5, to me, at least, is the RR Sport.  Cadillac doesn't compete, Lexus doesn't compete, Benz' M-Class leaves things to be desired, Lincoln doesn't compete, Audi is just coming out with an SUV...

Agreed... the X5 is an oldie, but a goodie. Its build quality is impeccable, and most SUVs seem flimsy compared to it.

[The O.C.]

By that do you mean old, outdated, outclassed, and generally needing replacement???  Come on, BMW isn't the only that builds a good luxury SUV.

First of all, it's not old.....and outdated? It was refreshed a year ago with a brand new AWD system, a brand new Valvetronic V8, still has a 6-speed automatic transmission. What do GM SUVs have to compare? Oh yeah....that's right....they don't. But that's okay. BMW put the emphasis on sport and driving enjoyment....not cargo capacity or Rubicon rock climbing.....

As far as outclassed? Not on your life. And it certainly doesn't "generally" need replacement.

Hmmm.....have you EVER driven one? I bet not.

Also, I didn't say BMW was the only one that builds a good luxury SUV....did I? Nope you are right....reviewing my post says I didn't say that at all.

[Flybrian]

I find it interesting that the same company can build one of the best SUVs and one of the worst only a few years apart.

[The O.C.]

I think the X5 has aged gracefully.  I may be having a brain fart but the only luxury SUV that outclasses the X5, to me, at least, is the RR Sport.  Cadillac doesn't compete, Lexus doesn't compete, Benz' M-Class leaves things to be desired, Lincoln doesn't compete, Audi is just coming out with an SUV...

I don't even think the RR Sport outclasses it.....it is SO much heavier, the top supercharged version barely matches a "normal" X5 4.4i in acceleration....and gets stomped by the 4.8i. Plus, with the sport package, BMW handles every bit as well...and has a much higher-quality interior than RR Sport (IMHO.) RR Sport can go further off-road....I'll give you that....but they sacrifice things for that ability.

[The O.C.]

I find it interesting that the same company can build one of the best SUVs and one of the worst only a few years apart.

LOL yeah that's true....

HOWEVER, I LOVE driving the X3.....especially with the sport package and 6-speed manual....

I just don't like its interior styling and I'm lukewarm (don't hate it but not in love with it) about the exterior styling.

[Flybrian]

LOL yeah that's true....

HOWEVER, I LOVE driving the X3.....especially with the sport package and 6-speed manual....

I just don't like its interior styling and I'm lukewarm (don't hate it but not in love with it) about the exterior styling.

Having not driven one, I can only point to review saying it drives rather harshly. I wouldn't be surprised.

However, what I can comment on is the gobs of plastic on the exterior (bad, IMO), the interior as you pointed out, and the price in light of a superior 3er wagon.

[CSpec]

Having not driven one, I can only point to review saying it drives rather harshly. I wouldn't be surprised.

However, what I can comment on is the gobs of plastic on the exterior (bad, IMO), the interior as you pointed out, and the price in light of a superior 3er wagon.

Well, they did get rid of the horrendous plastic in the newer versions, and got rid of the anemic 2.5L, but it's still no prize pig:

[Flybrian]

I look at that, look at this...

...and even in that bad color, my mind is made up.

Oh, and better economy, cheaper price and almost as much room(!!)

[Hudson]

Well, they did get rid of the horrendous plastic in the newer versions, and got rid of the anemic 2.5L, but it's still no prize pig:

And yet this X3 is selling beyond BMW's expectations.

[Cory Wolfe]

And yet this X3 is selling beyond BMW's expectations.

That doesn't make it a great vehicle...

[Variance]

And yet this X3 is selling beyond BMW's expectations.

That doesn't make it a great vehicle...

Phraze. (Like "werd" but stronger. )

Good sales don't detract from the ugly.

[turbo200]

the X5 is my favorite luxury SUV......in my mind only the cayenne comes clost for sport and total class.....the land rover is in a different, heavier, less nimble class, imho...

the X3 is pretty fugly on the outside to my eyes, but I guess it's a decent ride for the price. Though the exterior grace of the X5 really puts the X3 to shame.

[Cory Wolfe]

Anyways, yes... the X5 is one B E A Uuuuutiful SAV. B)

[!!!TED!!!]

Only on C&G can you go from new Toyota pickup to BMW SUV's.

[Nick]

Anyways, yes... the X5 is one B E A Uuuuutiful SAV. B)

Yea, the 4.8 is sick. I personally prefer the rims from the 4.6 and when we picked up our 05 4.4 we actually managed to switch rims with a 4.6 as part of the deal, then the salesman realized he would get fired for doing that being that they are special wheels only for the 4.6 I could have told him that, but I wanted to see the outcome. But we ended up getting nicer rims than what we started with anyways, so it all worked out I guess.

I want to do up our 4.4 like the 4.8 The small differences really do make a large impact. I like the euro lights too, but unfortunately that's no simple matter of replacing reflectors. You have to buy the entire damn assembly which I am sure is not cheap as not only are they auto leveling bi-xenon, but they are also adaptive headlights.

Our X5 is great. It is a very fun car with plenty of power. Handles very well, and I'm sure, for the type of car it is, it's pretty high in its class. But personally, I kinda miss our Suburban. I love riding in my friend's 06 XL Denali. They are just very comfortable, spacious, nice SUV's. Especially good for long trips and hauling lots of crap and people. The X5 is nice, but obviously it is a lot more sportier, and with the short wheelbase and stiff auto-leveling/height adjustable sport suspension it rides, well, like a sports car. Not nearly as cushy as a Suburban, though that was to be expected. Not nearly the same car.

Edited January 25, 2006 by Nick

[Hudson]

Phraze. (Like "werd" but stronger. )

Good sales don't detract from the ugly.

I don't disagree.

Is it me or does anyone else agree that the rear of the X3 seems like it was designed by Picasso?

[pow]

I don't disagree.

Is it me or does anyone else agree that the rear of the X3 seems like it was designed by Picasso?

I see it, too... it's decidedly Cubist.