Informal Survey Time-Fastlane Blog

[CaddyXLR-V]

CaddyXLR- I understand the point you are trying to make but just for reference........the Malibu was never nothing but a house wifes grocery getter. A better car than Nova by far but still a dime a dozen just like the Nova. It wazs no more in its time than today Malibu............did I forget to say......they were terrible in the snow.......as were all cars that didnt have studded snows & 200lb in the trunk.... thats how we did "weight transfer" 

Reg - Now come on, we all know the only reason you had problems was becasue you dont know how to drive  Read turbos post over and over again until you have the technique memorized.......then go out a practice it.......until it becomes natural instinct........ . Then once you pass that grade you can move on to the OC school of driving. 

Thats one grocery getter I'd love to own. I wanted my dads 67 but he said it was too fast for me. The engine was from a different car, probably a Camaro, but I believe it was a 327/375hp. That was the best sounding car I have ever heard in my life. I've owned a 2000 Malibu, but it wasnt as good at getting groceries with only 170hp.

[regfootball]

CaddyXLR- I understand the point you are trying to make but just for reference........the Malibu was never nothing but a house wifes grocery getter. A better car than Nova by far but still a dime a dozen just like the Nova. It wazs no more in its time than today Malibu............did I forget to say......they were terrible in the snow.......as were all cars that didnt have studded snows & 200lb in the trunk.... thats how we did "weight transfer" 

Reg - Now come on, we all know the only reason you had problems was becasue you dont know how to drive  Read turbos post over and over again until you have the technique memorized.......then go out a practice it.......until it becomes natural instinct........ . Then once you pass that grade you can move on to the OC school of driving. 

i want to master the art of crossing over the median and going the wrong way on the other side.

[ocnblu]

I don't, for the life of me, understand where these FWD geeks (I'm a geek too, but a different kind) are coming from. My ION was such a crappy car to drive in the snow. It wouldn't go anywhere with the traction control on, all it wanted to do was bog down to an idle. It was only marginally better with it off, because I could spin the hell out of the Firestones to gain some momentum. I have a very shallow incline up my driveway into my garage. With 2 inches of snow on the 20 foot driveway, I had to make several runs to get the damn thing into the garage. On turns in snow, if I touched the throttle, I flat out could not steer the damn thing... all it wanted to do was shoot straight sideways into the curb. This was not an old car with bald tires... this was a new car with less than 10k miles.

With my truck in 2wd, I can steer just as easily in snow as I can on dry road, with the added benefit of being able to kick the tail just a bit with the gas to tighten my turn... the total opposite affect of my FWD car.

A pickup truck has an inherent disadvantage in weight distribution when it's unloaded, for sure, but a modern RWD car with decent weight distribution should be able to handle just about anything.

Long live RWD! The natural alternative!

Edited January 26, 2006 by ocnblu

[Cory Wolfe]

Well my point is, how can someone be loyal to a car? The Malibu used to be a Chevelle Malibu, with big V8s and RWD, now, it is a bland FWD V6 fleet sedan. I'm sure there are no loyal followers of the Grand Prix that will only buy one specific Grand Prix, and no other car. I'm sure many who seem loyal, would not turn down a GTO given the chance to own one.

I was thinking by loyal followers you meant, the people who own one, search all the websites for mods for them, and like to talk on forums with other people who have them, which I do. Loyal doesnt necessarily mean you think the cars perfect, and nothing should ever be changed about it, at least to me it doesnt.

That's still not my point... and since you obviously still don't get it, let's just drop it. I said those certain cars had loyal followings. They do. That was my point. Sixty and company acted like very few FWD cars could be loved. I pointed out those two, which are loved and have loyal followings, like other vehicles including the Fiero. I wasn't saying anything about how they'd only buy those or anything like that. I wasn't saying they think their cars are perfect, but they certainly wouldn't talk about like you did. You basically said that you'd instantly forget it and leave it on the side of the road for certain RWD vehicles. If you were as you said, you wouldn't do that. Period. Unless you're some f**ked up physco. Even I don't talk about my POS GA like that and I wouldn't consider myself loyal to it... GAs in general, I would. I also said being loyal doesn't mean you have to sacrifice. If you still don't understand... don't respond. You're annoying me with your inability to.

[CaddyXLR-V]

That's still not my point... and since you obviously still don't get it, let's just drop it. I said those certain cars had loyal followings. They do. That was my point. Sixty and company acted like very few FWD cars could be loved. I pointed out those two, which are loved and have loyal followings, like other vehicles including the Fiero. I wasn't saying anything about how they'd only buy those or anything like that. I wasn't saying they think their cars are perfect, but they certainly wouldn't talk about like you did. You basically said that you'd instantly forget it and leave it on the side of the road for certain RWD vehicles. If you were as you said, you wouldn't do that. Period. Unless you're some f**ked up physco. Even I don't talk about my POS GA like that and I wouldn't consider myself loyal to it... GAs in general, I would. I also said being loyal doesn't mean you have to sacrifice. If you still don't understand... don't respond. You're annoying me with your inability to.

Your really getting too worked up about this. I was simply explaining my point, not attacking your views, nor attacking FWD cars. The GTO is 10 times the car my Grand Prix is, its as simple as that. If your getting annoyed by my posts, dont read them.

[Sixty8panther]

I'd post another one of my rants here, but Ocnblu has pretty much said anything I might have added but with a more inteligent & less rageful response.

Perhaps someday, when Communist China finally realises it's one of the biggest participant in this thing called Capitalism, when people take personal responsibility for their actions, All wars end while Pacifism prevails and AIDS/Cancer are cured we will return to a 85%/15% RWD/FWD ratio in the marketplace.

Anything other than a small econobox like a Mini Cooper or VW Golf will get RWD. That's the perfect world I dream of. FWD is annoying, obsolete, super-over-rated and 99% of the time useless as a bag of ice on the North Pole.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Sixty8panther]

I wasn't arguin' that .  I agree with you.....

Right.... I was just referring to that silly comment by some moron from GM (was it wagoner? ) who claimed the Coblat and Monte Carlo were Mustang Fighters. This parallels wiht Summer of 1964 when a member of GM brass was asked by an intern: Why doesn;t GM have a car like the Ford Mustang?

The GM executive in question answered: but we do, it's called the Corvair.

[insert punch line here]

And yet the Corvair, althouhgt it was NOT a true Mustang competitor, was still a cool vehicle. What with it's pancake motor, turbo availability & RWD was 10 times the car any Beretta or FWD Monte Carlo is.

When ever I work on my beat up old Datsun it just puts a smile on my face that it has a longitudinaly mounted I6 & power is being sent to the rear wheels. Somehow in todays FWD dominant world some of the biggest $h!booxes fro the 70s seem like great alternatives to new cars. I honestly do like the Cobalt SS but for that kind of money I think a RWD Cobalt would be litteraly 500% cooler even if it cost an extra $1000.

[razoredge]

I don't, for the life of me, understand where these FWD geeks (I'm a geek too, but a different kind) are coming from.  My ION was such a crappy car to drive in the snow.  It wouldn't go anywhere with the traction control on, all it wanted to do was bog down to an idle.  It was only marginally better with it off, because I could spin the hell out of the Firestones to gain some momentum.  I have a very shallow incline up my driveway into my garage.  With 2 inches of snow on the 20 foot driveway, I had to make several runs to get the damn thing into the garage.  On turns in snow, if I touched the throttle, I flat out could not steer the damn thing... all it wanted to do was shoot straight sideways into the curb.  This was not an old car with bald tires... this was a new car with less than 10k miles.

With my truck in 2wd, I can steer just as easily in snow as I can on dry road, with the added benefit of being able to kick the tail just a bit with the gas to tighten my turn... the total opposite affect of my FWD car.

A pickup truck has an inherent disadvantage in weight distribution when it's unloaded, for sure, but a modern RWD car with decent weight distribution should be able to handle just about anything.

Long live RWD!  The natural alternative!

Blu let me outline the problem........."ION" aint dat one of dem dar saturins ? I have no idea why you would have problems with grade. Someday I may finally be able to post pictures of my area and my various vehicals. We have no problems around here with my real cars, Ive never had one of those cheap GM's, Went from Rabbits to H bodies. There is nothing around here thats a "slight grade" a slight grade is what we call flat. We all know FWD will go with the crown when its spinning, but the point is you rarely need to spin to go anywhere. Same as RWD will go sideways with the crown.

See thing is I have no problem with either..........but what I do have a problem with is the BS that the FWD haters throw out. BS is BS. Im up for a backroad cat and mouse anytime, rain, snow or shine. My FWD against comparable RWD......no problem on dry roads..........fresh snow........see ya when you get there.

I notice how no one ever wants to talk about how well the Cobalt is doing against the best in its class........FWD or RWD.......Oh well.

[ocnblu]

With the excellent Solstice GXP engine, a RWD Cobalt would be, by far, the most desirable car in its class, because of the wonderful, neutral feeling of driving a RWD car without the burden of heavy steering that tries to fight you for control.

[razoredge]

With the excellent Solstice GXP engine, a RWD Cobalt would be, by far, the most desirable car in its class, because of the wonderful, neutral feeling of driving a RWD car without the burden of heavy steering that tries to fight you for control.

Yep......for us........now what about all those others "accidents waiting to happen" driving around in the Northernteer ? What if many of them stop buyin GP's, G6, Cobalt, Impala......and buy Camry, Accord, Hyundia, Kias ? Theres already more and more of those Korean cars everyday.....there has been an outbreak of them, even here in hillbilly land, Hyundias and Kias, Camrys and Civics, it getting kinda hard to take, even the mountains aint safe a no mo. I just saw my first hillbilly in a fullsize Toyota.......ruined my entire day, felt like my world was being invaded. :AH-HA_wink:

We'll have both "platforms" not soon enough but their comming.

Best RWD car I ever drove in the snow was a ...........CAMARO..........

My 76 Delta 88 wasnt bad except during a storm. That was only 3 winters ago I was driving that & my 2wh Dakota w/cap, shelves 3/4 plywood, 3/4 plywood bed cover, two quite heavy tool boxs, serious home made 2x4-3/16 wrap around rear bumper w/hitch....yea that got around real good when the Delta couldnt handle it. The land yachts were always better than the smaller cars.

[The O.C.]

than all those camry's should be dropping like rocks.  the hertz by my house keeps them well stocked.

Fact of the matter is.....Camry fleet sales....while visable.....are a fraction of what Taurus (75%) and Impala (62%) sales are.

There are also other aspects to Camry that help boost its resale value over competing domestic makes.....

[regfootball]

i think if i was going to go racing on the side for fun i would be happy with something along the lines of a FWD Contour SVT. that car was a blast to drive when i gave it an extended test.

the ion redline i drove was a hoot. to know that the cobalt ss is that much better......wow.

if anyone really wanted small RWD 4 seaters than we'd still have the 240sx and stuff. its not worth the trouble.

leave RWD for the mid size and large cars like the 4150 pound RWD charger

Edited January 27, 2006 by regfootball

[knightfan26917]

Right.... I was just referring to that silly comment by some moron from GM (was it wagoner?  ) who claimed the Coblat and Monte Carlo were Mustang Fighters. This parallels wiht Summer of 1964 when a member of GM brass was asked by an intern: Why doesn;t GM have a car like the Ford Mustang?

The GM executive in question answered: but we do, it's called the Corvair.

[insert punch line here]

Yeah, I know .

And yet the Corvair, althouhgt it was NOT a true Mustang competitor, was still a cool vehicle. What with it's pancake motor, turbo availability & RWD was 10 times the car any Beretta or FWD Monte Carlo is.

Careful ... Berettas aren't _that_ bad ... at least they are not pretending to be something they aren't .

hey ocnblu...can I copy your post and use it in other FWD/RWD arguments I see? Seriously....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new? Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[Sixty8panther]

KF:

I loved Berattas as a kid, and now as an adult I have nothing against them but every day more and more my single minded philosophy is to try to never buy a FWD car again. Outside of a beater for like $150 I'm pretty sure the only FWD car I'd ever buy would be a RazorBack Eldorado or Mini Cooper.

I joined a Datsun 910/Bluebird forum today and decided I might attempt ro own a 4 dr Hardtop Bluebird at some point in my life. Basically my Datsun wiht out the extra log nose and Six cylinder but a true pillarless hardtop. This is a perfect example of a car that would be worthless to me if it was not RWD... the IRS and RWD are 80% of their appeal.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Cory Wolfe]

Your really getting too worked up about this. I was simply explaining my point, not attacking your views, nor attacking FWD cars. The GTO is 10 times the car my Grand Prix is, its as simple as that. If your getting annoyed by my posts, dont read them.

I'm not getting worked up about your views... It's just your total inability to understand what the hell I'm saying. It annoys me when I have to explain something over and over and over and over again because somebody can't grasp what I'm saying and misinterpret it all to hell... and then have to explain what they're saying. My posts aren't exactly hard to understand. Just read... let it set in you're mind... keep doing that for a while... think... then respond. It doesn't take much.

As for your point... whose point came first? Mine or yours? Mine did. You did not get it. I'll take your point into consideration once you understand mine. That's all I ever wanted to do.

Anything other than a small econobox like a Mini Cooper or VW Golf will get RWD. That's the perfect world I dream of. FWD is annoying, obsolete, super-over-rated and 99% of the time useless as a bag of ice on the North Pole.

My mom's going to love the increase on our insurance... after she wrecks.

You know, Sixty8... FWD isn't as bad as you make it seem. It really isn't. Annoying? I haven't found it to be. Overrated? Considering that my mom hasn't had trouble in the winter until she got our RWD Blazer... and the fact that many FWD cars can perform almost as well as RWD ones... and how torque-steer can be engineered out... and that FWD is more space efficient... and is more practical for the majority of the population... Need I continue? Useless? Only if you plan on doing donuts... but that's a major factor in buying a car... because?

See thing is I have no problem with either..........but what I do have a problem with is the BS that the FWD haters throw out. BS is BS. Im up for a backroad cat and mouse anytime, rain, snow or shine. My FWD against comparable RWD......no problem on dry roads..........fresh snow........see ya when you get there.

I notice how no one ever wants to talk about how well the Cobalt is doing against the best in its class........FWD or RWD.......Oh well.

Exactly. BS is BS. FWD haters seem to be full of it. Full of opinion, not of facts. And they seem to forget which cars are having their asses handed to them by a FWD car.

I loved Berattas as a kid, and now as an adult I have nothing against them but every day more and more my single minded philosophy is to try to never buy a FWD car again. Outside of a beater for like $150 I'm pretty sure the only FWD car I'd ever buy would be a RazorBack Eldorado or Mini Cooper.

Did you just admit that you're close-minded? Seems so... They say admitting is the first step to recovery. Hope you recover, soon. You have a long road ahead of you... extremely long is more like it. Same with a few other people, here...

Anyways, with all that said.... You guys are so delusional. You act like FWD is the end of the world. News flash; It isn't. I understand that there aren't enough RWD cars. Don't take it out on FWD. Take it out on one of the manufacturers that caused this. GM, for instance. It's their fault we don't have any affordable RWD cars. Not FWD, it just replaced it. Don't hate the replacee, hate the replacer. GM deserves it as far as I'm concerned. That's who I blame and take my anger out on. I love RWD. I prefer RWD cars over FWD cars. GM took it away from Pontiac.

BTW, I'll keep on standing up for FWD as long as you guys keep mindlessly bashing it...

[knightfan26917]

Take it out on one of the manufacturers that caused this. GM, for instance. It's their fault we don't have any affordable RWD cars. Not FWD, it just replaced it. Don't hate the replacee, hate the replacer. GM deserves it as far as I'm concerned. That's who I blame and take my anger out on. I love RWD. I prefer RWD cars over FWD cars.

Funny. I've said/written over and over again that it's GM/Chevrolet that has caused themselves the shortage of RWD...and should be to blame, not FWD. Yet, whenever I elude to/say/type this, I get told that I'm not a Monte Carlo enthusiast.

*shrugs*

Go figure.

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new? Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

Edited January 27, 2006 by knightfan26917

[thegriffon]

Yeah, I know .

And yet the Corvair, althouhgt it was NOT a true Mustang competitor, was still a cool vehicle. What with it's pancake motor, turbo availability & RWD was 10 times the car any Beretta or FWD Monte Carlo is.

Careful ... Berettas aren't _that_ bad ... at least they are not pretending to be something they aren't .

hey ocnblu...can I copy your post and use it in other FWD/RWD arguments I see? Seriously....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new? Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

Car and Driver apparently thought the Corvair coupe was a Mustang fighter—it even won a comparison test against the Mustang for performance and handling. After all both were what are now considered lower-midsize 2-door coupes. The only thing that really distinguished the Mustang was a different image to the Falcon sedan.

[Camino LS6]

I think you all know where I stand on all of this, so I won't dive into the hopeless debate about which drivetrain layout is superior.

However, I am absolutely certain that the domestics are in peril now because of the wholesale abandonment of what they knew best: RWD. For 20 years and more, we have had FWD shoved down our throats. I honestly don't much care what you drive if I can choose what I want to drive.

Consider this:

Of the 50+ vehicles I have owned, only 4 have been FWD.

Of those 4, 3 were simply given to me.

The one which was not ('84 Toronado) was used as a

substitute for cash in a 3 car deal.

Of the 4, one was Hellish, two were competent, and one

was ugly and average.

I have never actually laid down cash for a front driver and am not likely to. I am passionate about cars and have been all of my life. I know that I will never be passionate about any FWD car however competent or efficient or reliable it may be. Cars mean more to me than that- a good appliance just won't do.

Defending FWD on an online forum is like protecting a brick with wrapping paper- there is simply no need.

What we enthusaists really want is to make the choice for ourselves from a range of choices. Sounds simple right? Well, it hasn't been. Not for a long time.

The automakers spent decades marketing to the least common denominator and left us with nothing to choose from but countless redundant versions of the FWD sedan. For me,that was like choosing from dozens of plain white bowls full of the same plain broth.

Finally, we are beginning to see style and individuality return to the offerings in the automotive market. RWD is a huge part of that and AWD will be. The tyranny of the masses is ending and each marque is beginning to stand for something again. I might even have a hard time deciding which new car I would buy from a range of good choices in a few years. With Challenger,Mustang,GTO and Camaro all in front of me I can, at last, happily ignore the crowd of Camrys and Accords and such as they fade into invisibility.

Choice is good. :AH-HA_wink:

[Cory Wolfe]

I think you all know where I stand on all of this, so I won't dive into the hopeless debate about which drivetrain layout is superior.

However, I am absolutely certain that the domestics are in peril now because of the wholesale abandonment of what they knew best: RWD. For 20 years and more, we have had FWD shoved down our throats. I honestly don't much care what you drive if I can choose what I want to drive.

I have never actually laid down cash for a front driver and am not likely to. I am passionate about cars and have been all of my life.  I know that I will never be passionate about any FWD car however competent or efficient or reliable it may be. Cars mean more to me than that- a good appliance just won't do.

Defending FWD on an online forum is like protecting a brick with wrapping paper- there is simply no need.

What we enthusaists really want is to make the choice for ourselves from a range of choices. Sounds simple right? Well, it hasn't been. Not for a long time.

Finally, we are beginning to see style and individuality return to the offerings in the automotive market. RWD is a huge part of that and AWD will be. The tyranny of the masses is ending and each marque is beginning to stand for something again. I might even have a hard time deciding which new car I would buy from a range of good choices in a few years. With Challenger,Mustang,GTO and Camaro all in front of me I can, at last, happily ignore the crowd of Camrys and Accords and such as they fade into invisibility.

Choice is good. :AH-HA_wink:

I'm arguing against choice; I'm all for it. I just don't think FWD deserves the bashing it gets. I mean, I'd much rather have a RWD car. If things go my way, my next car will be RWD. I just don't see what progess is made by bashing FWD for pretty much no reason. I don't like the lack of RWD cars either, but that's no reason. Again, blame GM and how they shoved these FWD cars down our throats, not FWD. The problems that are commonly complained about with FWD are not problems at all. Other than donuts, that is, but why would anyone want to do that tire shreading activity?

[turbo200]

If you listen carefully, informed people aren't arguing against FWD, we're arguing for RWD. I am not against GM offering FWD cars of any kind---they already do. My problem is with the success of FWD large cars, and specifically the success of the Pontiac brand as an all FWD carmaker---and don't mention the Solstice or GTO, these are low volujme, niche examples.

First, let us not forget, nearly every car in Pontiac's lineup is a sister to another car. There is nothing Pontiac does GM can't do elsewhere, and they already know this. There is nothing holding GM back from swinging the proverbial axe.

I am not opposed to GM offering FWD large cars, but I feel that to get the kind of power the large car set is demanding these days, that power is better routed to the rear wheels. And rear wheel drive is inherently better balanced, so these two ton sedans won't be dealing with nose heavy designs, essentially making them neutral cars with planted, solid handling also pretty much guaranteeing good reviews from the all-important media.

I am also not opposed to GM offering AWD, so the weather issue is a lame argument and curcuitous. It's childish, I've already argued for offering AWD, so get off your soapboxes and stop complaining. A lot of people here sound like parrots here---rehashing the same thing over and over again with no real end.

The success of Pontiac is something close to my heart. In order for Pontiac to see life in the next decade--it needs to establish an identity that can set it apart from the millions of brands and choices there are today. Identity is produced in two ways---unique styling and product. If Pontiac were to do an all RWD lineup, you can guarantee hundreds of thousands of Californians, Arizonans, New Mexicans, Floridinians, and basically anywhere there is any kind of car culture and car enthusiasts, would all put thier ear on notice.

Enthusiasts are important. We are the early adopters. We are the buzz creators----the people who spread the word of mouth. This is what excites us.....we share our excitement and other people become informed. The more cars of a type you see on the street the more people will want that car, and the more people will like that design if it's a well executed design. I've said it fifty times---the best advertisement is the rolling one.

In order to get the rolling advertisement, GM must first produce exciting cars that set themselves apart in the marketplace. I have not seen one G6 coupe driving on the roads. Why? Not because Californians are elitist liberals like ignorant people in the middle of the country would have you believe---but because there is nothing special about the G6 that makes it a better choice than its already extremely competent rivals. Let's have GM produce cars that are outstanding and different and new entries to this crowded marketplace. Then we can build on that and get the mainstream cars some more acceptance by virtue of being in the same house as those smaller, more exciting cars.

[regfootball]

"If Pontiac were to do an all RWD lineup, you can guarantee hundreds of thousands of Californians, Arizonans, New Mexicans, Floridinians, and basically anywhere there is any kind of car culture and car enthusiasts, would all put thier ear on notice."

nice idea. but if they did that, Pontiacs dealer sin about 25 states would simply bail on the general and say, 'thanks, its been fun, but we can't keep our doors open if you do that'.

[thegriffon]

And GM would not even notice as the sales rise reg. There's no point ignoring the biggest market to save sales in your smallest. Would you prefer they not have any product? Beside it would do GM no harm at all to cut the number of dealers in many states.

[turbo200]

And GM would not even notice as the sales rise reg. There's no point ignoring the biggest market to save sales in your smallest. Would you prefer they not have any product? Beside it would do GM no harm at all to cut the number of dealers in many states.

very very good points griffon. All of the markets I mentioned, and especially California, are among the biggest in the States. Sun Belt states are all still experiencing great growth rates than the others.

reg, you are very very thick man. Pontiac can offer AWD for those that need it. That aside, by '08 all GM's will come with stability control standard. ABS standard. What more do you want? Have you ever tried driving a modern RWD car with these technological goodies in the snow? or, is all your spewing based on your experience with '70's, '80's and even '90's cars?

[CaddyXLR-V]

California alone probably(not 100% sure, too lazy to look it up) has a bigger market than Australia, but look at the cars they get. Why should they have cars made specifically for their market, when CA, AZ, FL, TX, and all the other states listed, cant? Maybe if GM does it right, they could even export some to other countries.

[turbo200]

let's look at it another way....

RWD

gto is all retail sales.....dealers sell these

solstice is all retail sales.....dealers also sell these

FWD

vibe is mostly retail sales, some fleet sales

grand prix is over 50% fleet sales, dealers actually sell only about 75k of these per year, i don't know how many sold in CA, but disproportionate to how many purchasers are in CA versus cars sold compared to other cars

G6 is 17% fleet sales, dealers sell about 170k per year [based on 200k/yr selling rate, what is G6 selling like these days in a year?]

....again not a huge amount of G6s are sold in CA, and is disproportionate compared to the number of car buyers there are here, and the number looks even more drastic compared to imports who sell a bulk of thier cars here. Face it people, GM will have to figure out how to cater to CA buyers' needs.

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac and its dealer network are actually in a great position to make this sort of change.

Follow my thinking here.

Most Pontiac dealers also sell GMC and Buick, these two additional nameplates could easily accomodate models shifted from Pontiac.

Conclusion: GM can make Pontiac into whatever it wants with a minimum of dealer complaints and without much initial impact on overall corporate sales.

[razoredge]

SO your saying people in California do not buy FWD cars ?

a few other things

A lot of people here sound like parrots here---rehashing the same thing over and over again with no real end.

good job describing yourself

reg, you are very very thick man.

once again, very good job describing yourself

Pontiac can offer AWD for those that need it.

If we were interested in AWD we would have switched to Subaru years ago

is all your spewing based on

whats all your spewing based on ???????????????????????????????????????????

The success of Pontiac is something close to my heart.

not mine I care about Buick and at one time Olds.

In order for Pontiac to see life in the next decade--it needs to establish an identity that can set it apart from the millions of brands and choices there are today.

They do have something, a great big beek facia, great for Pontiac people that like it, not so great for those of us that dont and lost Oldsmobile and witnessed the castration of Buick.......whats left for us ?

Pontiac cant go all RWD, that will isolate them and leave Buick taking the fall because plants cant operate at full capacity, so then what, Buick shares with Chevy ?

Both Reg and I have delivered very fair and reasonable views on keeping both products available, even for Pontiac...because remember....your own words........the only people that buy GM's are in the ?"mid west".......(does anyone know where the "mid west" begins and ends, BTW ?) (I think it goes from the Sierra Nevadas east clear to the Atlantic.......according to some)

GM did have RWD's available B body and Camaro/Firebird........guess what ? they tanked.

yep they could do it better today..and they will.....but they must keep FWD cars available for the mass public........deal with it already.

We are the buzz creators----the people who spread the word of mouth.

now a few weeks ago when I said you were doing your damndest at talking people out of likeing GM's you said you could not possible accomplish this, yet apparently you now feel you can ?

[CaddyXLR-V]

SO your saying people in California do not buy FWD cars ?

a few other things

good job describing yourself

once again, very good job describing yourself

If we were interested in AWD we would have switched to Subaru years ago

whats all your spewing based on ???????????????????????????????????????????

not mine I care about Buick and at one time Olds.

They do have something, a great big beek facia, great for Pontiac people that like it, not so great for those of us that dont and lost Oldsmobile and witnessed the castration of Buick.......whats left for us ?

Pontiac cant go all RWD, that will isolate them and leave Buick taking the fall because plants cant operate at full capacity, so then what, Buick shares with Chevy ?

Both Reg and I have delivered very fair and reasonable views on keeping both products available, even for Pontiac...because remember....your own words........the only people that buy GM's are in the ?"mid west".......(does anyone know where the "mid west" begins and ends, BTW ?) (I think it goes from the Sierra Nevadas east clear to the Atlantic.......according to some)

GM did have RWD's available B body and Camaro/Firebird........guess what ? they tanked.

yep they could do it better today..and they will.....but they must keep FWD cars available for the mass public........deal with it already.

now a few weeks ago when I said you were doing your damndest at talking people out of likeing GM's you said you could not possible accomplish this, yet apparently you now feel you can ?

Because we need cars to back up the buzz. I can tell everyone a Cavalier is great, that doesn't mean they will think so. But if GM starting making great cars, and I told someone about it, it might be a different story. And RWD sales can grow in CA(maybe if some affordable ones were offered?) and they dont get the snow and ice the northern states get. Of course they buy FWD cars in CA, because if they didn't no one would own cars outside of BMWs and Mercedes. What other choices are there?

[turbo200]

SO your saying people in California do not buy FWD cars ?

a few other things

good job describing yourself

once again, very good job describing yourself

If we were interested in AWD we would have switched to Subaru years ago

whats all your spewing based on ???????????????????????????????????????????

not mine I care about Buick and at one time Olds.

They do have something, a great big beek facia, great for Pontiac people that like it, not so great for those of us that dont and lost Oldsmobile and witnessed the castration of Buick.......whats left for us ?

Pontiac cant go all RWD, that will isolate them and leave Buick taking the fall because plants cant operate at full capacity, so then what, Buick shares with Chevy ?

Both Reg and I have delivered very fair and reasonable views on keeping both products available, even for Pontiac...because remember....your own words........the only people that buy GM's are in the ?"mid west".......(does anyone know where the "mid west" begins and ends, BTW ?) (I think it goes from the Sierra Nevadas east clear to the Atlantic.......according to some)

GM did have RWD's available B body and Camaro/Firebird........guess what ? they tanked.

yep they could do it better today..and they will.....but they must keep FWD cars available for the mass public........deal with it already.

now a few weeks ago when I said you were doing your damndest at talking people out of likeing GM's you said you could not possible accomplish this, yet apparently you now feel you can ?

this is what i want to say:

you're an ass, a buzzkill, and the thickest person here

you (1) try your damndest to misinterpret my posts or (2) are in the farthest left behind school there is

until you read and comprehend my viewpoint, my retorts to you will be vague and direct just like this one.

here is what I will add:

READ DAMNIT.

Edited January 28, 2006 by turbo200

[turbo200]

Last time I checked Buick shares a minivan, minivan platform [RDV], a midsize sedan platform, and an engine........

get over your antiquated thinking

[turbo200]

People in CA don't buy Pontiacs, that's the big problem. And I reiterate my ignorant people comment if you resort to insulting Californians.

[turbo200]

you may only care about Buick because you are a loyal brand fanatic who's never read a book or visited the world.......

I care about the whole company and the survival of each and every brand, I care about the lost jobs, I care about the history, I care about creativity...................I care that you get to understand where I am coming from, but you are too close-minded to see what my truth is.

[turbo200]

your views about the B body and old F body are outdated, since the corporation that existed then did not understand the public then

the corporation that GM is now understands what the public wants

your views on RWD are also outdated since you have not sampled the most current, you are outdated and basing your opinions on outdated cars. Go out and live a rich life.

[Camino LS6]

Let's call a truce in the personal wars,Guys!

[turbo200]

Thick thick thick thick thick

boy, it must be a pain to be your wife......

I have said I am a proponent for choice.....FWD should always be available for those who don't care as much about driving feel, and in cars the size of Accord and below..

[turbo200]

sorry, Camino, I'm done now...

[razoredge]

wowe !

I have read everything you write and fully comprehend all of it, that is why I was able to accumulate that list of comments and questions so readily.

We've all heard your spew over and over too....ya know ? I guess your less dense that the people you throw names at ?

I dont know what it is you think I dont or cant understand, frankly, to me its makeing you appear a bit overwhelmed, but this little "left behind" bull $h! is a bit over done now and is actually an insult and personal attack...though I realize the moderators have some double standards about insults and personal attacks. Still I can take it with much amusement.

A few of us dont think that Pontiac or any division should go all RWD, just deal with it. I also like platform sharing between Pontiac and Buick, to some reasonable degree, thats another reason why I have the "hold on a minute" attitude. I can easily see Buick getting lost and throw to the wayside with some of these "plans". I also want Buick to have some exciting, performing, sporty full lux car, I have been saying that for far longer than the 3 years you mentioned in a previous post.

the whole world is never going to agree with you, you will have to get used to that

and...

I insulted California......where ?

[Camino LS6]

Why don't we just call this thread played-out?

Let it die and start over fresh so I don't have to lock it.

OK?

[Cory Wolfe]

If you listen carefully, informed people aren't arguing against FWD, we're arguing for RWD. I am not against GM offering FWD cars of any kind---they already do. My problem is with the success of FWD large cars, and specifically the success of the Pontiac brand as an all FWD carmaker---and don't mention the Solstice or GTO, these are low volujme, niche examples.

First, let us not forget, nearly every car in Pontiac's lineup is a sister to another car. There is nothing Pontiac does GM can't do elsewhere, and they already know this. There is nothing holding GM back from swinging the proverbial axe.

I am not opposed to GM offering FWD large cars, but I feel that to get the kind of power the large car set is demanding these days, that power is better routed to the rear wheels. And rear wheel drive is inherently better balanced, so these two ton sedans won't be dealing with nose heavy designs, essentially making them neutral cars with planted, solid handling also pretty much guaranteeing good reviews from the all-important media.

I am also not opposed to GM offering AWD, so the weather issue is a lame argument and curcuitous. It's childish, I've already argued for offering AWD, so get off your soapboxes and stop complaining. A lot of people here sound like parrots here---rehashing the same thing over and over again with no real end.

The success of Pontiac is something close to my heart. In order for Pontiac to see life in the next decade--it needs to establish an identity that can set it apart from the millions of brands and choices there are today. Identity is produced in two ways---unique styling and product. If Pontiac were to do an all RWD lineup, you can guarantee hundreds of thousands of Californians, Arizonans, New Mexicans, Floridinians, and basically anywhere there is any kind of car culture and car enthusiasts, would all put thier ear on notice.

Enthusiasts are important. We are the early adopters. We are the buzz creators----the people who spread the word of mouth. This is what excites us.....we share our excitement and other people become informed. The more cars of a type you see on the street the more people will want that car, and the more people will like that design if it's a well executed design. I've said it fifty times---the best advertisement is the rolling one.

In order to get the rolling advertisement, GM must first produce exciting cars that set themselves apart in the marketplace. I have not seen one G6 coupe driving on the roads. Why? Not because Californians are elitist liberals like ignorant people in the middle of the country would have you believe---but because there is nothing special about the G6 that makes it a better choice than its already extremely competent rivals. Let's have GM produce cars that are outstanding and different and new entries to this crowded marketplace. Then we can build on that and get the mainstream cars some more acceptance by virtue of being in the same house as those smaller, more exciting cars.

You have said nothing I do not understand or do not agree with. My simple arguement was towards a few... okay, maybe just one member starting with "S" and ending with "r"... who continually bash FWD for mindless reasons. Camino got in it just a bad, and had to explain myself again. I was only making the point that FWD is not as bad as everyone makes it seems and that I am in the same boat as them. I just don't bash FWD... because there is no reason to. I prefer RWD, doesn't mean I have to bash FWD like they do. That's it.

[knightfan26917]

Enthusiasts are important.

Chevrolet sure doesn't seem to know this right now. Sure hope the "buzz" created by the Camaro concept gave them a clue, though....

We are the buzz creators----the people who spread the word of mouth. This is what excites us.....we share our excitement and other people become informed. The more cars of a type you see on the street the more people will want that car, and the more people will like that design if it's a well executed design. I've said it fifty times---the best advertisement is the rolling one.

*nods*

Absolutely. Problem is, right now, GM doesn't offer much that I can get excited about. Thought about the HHR, but I don't necessarily care for the interior ... or that it is FWD. Thought about the GTO, but it blends in with everything else on the road ... so much so that those "not in the know" think it is FWD.....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html

"Nothing's quite the same now" ... Vertical Horizon ... 'Best I Ever Had'

[Sixty8panther]

"If Pontiac were to do an all RWD lineup, you can guarantee hundreds of thousands of Californians, Arizonans, New Mexicans, Floridinians, and basically anywhere there is any kind of car culture and car enthusiasts, would all put thier ear on notice."

nice idea.  but if they did that, Pontiacs dealer sin about 25 states would simply bail on the general and say, 'thanks, its been fun, but we can't keep our doors open if you do that'.

Funny thing Reg...

Here in Massachusetts, in Maine as far North as Agusta & IN ALL parts of New Hampshire Mercedes Benz, BMW, Infiniti & Lexus dealers sell healthy amounts of RWD cars all year long.

What kind of world are we living in where:

- in the 1950s people got around fine wiht RWD and POS bias ply tires

- in the 1960s people got around fine wiht RWD and POS bias ply tires

- in the 1970s people got around fine wiht RWD and crappy mediocre radials

& yet now in 2006 with incredibly advanced tire technology, traction control, impecable plowing and sanding most of the country is convinced that RWD cars equal death & destruction in the snow. Yes, sometimes FWD helps you get going but what the else does it have to do wiht maintaining control of your car? not nearly as much as people believe.

[CaddyXLR-V]

You have said nothing I do not understand or do not agree with. My simple arguement was towards a few... okay,  maybe just one member starting with "S" and ending with "r"... who continually bash FWD for mindless reasons. Camino got in it just a bad, and had to explain myself again. I was only making the point that FWD is not as bad as everyone makes it seems and that I am in the same boat as them. I just don't bash FWD... because there is no reason to. I prefer RWD, doesn't mean I have to bash FWD like they do. That's it.

I agree, I might come off as bashing FWD, but I think GM still needs FWD cars. But there needs to be a balance, for the past about 15 years there hasnt been a balance. It's been pretty much guaranteed that any new car coming out of GM will be FWD, until recently, and even then it has only been a 2 seat roadster, and Cadillacs. Cars like the Cobalt and Malibu should stay FWD. Saturn should have some Acura RSX like cars, like the Astra hatch, sporty and FWD. But Pontiac should have a 3 series like car but cheaper. It's all about choice. Let the Impala stay FWD and let it keep the sporty SS version, but make the G8(Bonneville, Grand prix, whatever it will be called) RWD/AWD. I dont even know how well affordable RWD cars would do in the market, because there hasn't been any offered in so long, and the market has changed since then.

All we have to base our predictions on are luxury cars, the lx cars, and the Mustang. One is a coupe, the others are expensive, and the lx cars are all full size. But they are all doing very well in the market.