Informal Survey Time-Fastlane Blog

[razoredge]

I think there will be a handful of collectors that keep some of these great cars around for awhile, at least I hope so.

I know there is currently owners of low milage LeSabre T-types & 86 LeSabre GN's, Pontiac TGP's, the Bonneville crowd is a great bunch of enthousiasts and I guess so is the Regal GS & GTP crowd though I never visited them. I imagine there will be some Beretta Z26 & Lumina Z34's hanging around in 20 years. I currently plan on keeping the 86 LeSabre 2dr. Limited for an indefinante amount of time. Reattas, Z24 convertables. Actually a few of these cars would hold their own and outhandle any of the comparable stock Mustang, Camaro or Cuda of late 60's early 70's.

Just to be realistic

[pow]

Don't forget the Mini or the Golf...

[thegriffon]

Update:

"By Jack Keebler

GM Director--Advanced Concepts Group

First, I'm very grateful for all of the perspectives offered on front-, rear-, and all-wheel-drive. GM has been traditionally (and perhaps rightly) accused of ignoring customer input. Too often without that perspective, we've offered buyers well-reasoned -- but perfectly passionless products.

Second, as I suspected, the widely divergent thoughts posted indicate that there's a healthy market for various driveline layouts. Given the company's eight North American divisions, some identified with specific driveline types, there would appear to be a need for great-driving front-, rear-, and all-wheel-drive cars and trucks.

Specifically though, I promise to work on the creation of a line of small, agile, rear-wheel-drive cars. And quite frankly, I can't imagine a front-drive version of Camaro."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you haven't yet given your input on the fastlane blog, then do so. Dont be so concerned about what you think other people will buy, just ask yourself what you would buy (fwd, f/awd, rwd, r/awd) and tell GM what you want.

Edited January 23, 2006 by thegriffon

[Cory Wolfe]

"Specifically though, I promise to work on the creation of a line of small, agile, rear-wheel-drive cars. "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you haven't yet given your input on the fastlane blog, then do so. Dont be so concerned about what you think other people will buy, just ask yourself what you would buy (fwd, f/awd, rwd, r/awd) and tell GM what you want.

I hope he keeps his promise...

[CaddyXLR-V]

FWD Grand Ams and Grand Prixs have... you guessed it, loyal followings. So.. smack my ass and call me Grandma. You can't change it or manipulate it no matter what you say. Dirty little haters.

I love my Grand Prix, but I'd dump it in a heartbeat for a GTO, or Pontiac 3 series, or Sky redline or.....the list goes on

[Cory Wolfe]

I love my Grand Prix, but I'd dump it in a heartbeat for a GTO, or Pontiac 3 series, or Sky redline or.....the list goes on

Just because you own one, doesn't make you part of the loyal following... and being part of the loyal following doesn't mean having to sacrifice. But yes, they each have a very loyal following, just like Fieros. Like it or not, guys.

Besides, of those vehicles that actually exist, they aren't the equivilent of a V6, 5 seat, midsize Grand Prix coupe . That could either mean the GP isn't what you wanted in the first place, securing the idea that you are far from the loyal following... Or that you have low standards as to which vehicles you'd choose, as in you don't have a secure preference.

Well, I can't wait for these small RWD cars.. if one's a Pontiac in the form of a coupe. B)

Edited January 23, 2006 by blackviper8891

[Cory Wolfe]

Kappas all around! You get one, and you get one, and you get one . . .

Besides the Kappa and Sigma, what other small RWD platforms are they planning on?

Appearantly a new one. ...Since Kappa isn't flexible enough.

[The O.C.]

I literally spit that out, took me about 15 minutes, it's everything i feel strongly about.

It's perfect....

[The O.C.]

Like the RL no-one is buying, or the Alfa's that still can't get no respect without rwd. While no-one is suggesting making the Aveo rwd (the only rwd subcompact in production is the Lada Classic), or even the Cobalt, rwd does have appeal for many in these volume segments. Enough at least for a smaller player such as Pontiac to carve out their own niche. Given the continuing appeal of old rwd cars such as old Novas, Chevelles, E80 Corolla/Sprinter coupes and the Nissan Silvia (about to be revived it seems), there is undoubtedly a market for an affordable rwd performance car.

Everyone also should remember that engineering any AWD alternative (be it RWD-biased or not) adds cost, weight, and complexity. AND recent reviews of Audi's recent RWD-biased sport sedans shows that, as nice as they are, it still can't turn an Audi into a "BMW."

I believe there are business cases for FWD and RWD cars....with AWD versions when appropriate or necessary. I like the Malibu/FWD, Impala/RWD kind-of thinking.

Whenever I've lived in a snow-belt city (Detroit and Philadelphia) I've driven plenty of RWD cars with basic all-season tires and modern traction-control systems and for 95% of the driving scenarios, that got me through almost as well as any FWD car because MOST of the time, cities are quite responsive in cleaning/plowing streets. Now, maybe if I lived in a rural area where they didn't maintain the roads as well, I'd really have to look at AWD.

I just don't consider FWD being all it's cracked up to be in winter weather traction. As we all know, when you begin attempting to accelerate on bad roads in a FWD car, you transfer some of the weight of the vehicle OFF the drive wheels. In a RWD car, you are transferring weight TO the drive wheels. With modern traction control and stability control systems helping to maximize what control you have back there, and you know how to drive and handle a RWD car, I think you are for the most part going to get where you are going. 12-inches of unplowed snow isn't going to make driving easy if you are RWD OR FWD.

I believe FWD's advantages are greater in the area of packaging of the drivetrain to maximize interior roominess and would like to see it utilized in automotive segments where those traits are most welcome or essential for success.

[The O.C.]

Yep

I think what I've always said is that its not a hit. When Chrysler sells over 225k worth of 300's in a year then its a hit.

Yep

Because I don't think Choice is  an option. Can Gm Afford 2 architectures in the same segment? If Gm can Afford an Epsilon wide or Lambda Impala. Along with a Zeta or Sigma  Grand Prix fine. But I don't think they can Afford Both.

The WRX is a FWD platform with symetrical AWD. The Mazdaspeed6 is FWD with Rear Biased AWD

The 300,Charger,and Magnum barely add up to Impala alones sales. Throw in the other long in the tooth W-Bodies and its no contest. How would they Do with a fresh Design on a modern progressive FWD/AWD platform?

The Acura TL sells as well the CTS

As Turbo200 quoted in a previous post, last year, Impala was 62% fleet. I don't see that as any indication of a "hit" either with consumers that actually purchase their cars or for the dealers that make next to nothing each time they courtesy deliver a fleet car.

Don't expect the new Impala to seriously reduce those fleet numbers.......as nice as the new one is compared to the old one, it is (based upon how many I see at rental lots) and will continue to be a VERY strong fleet vehicle for Chevrolet/GM.

I too would be curious to see the fleet percentages of the 300 and/or LX cars. I'm going to bet it's around 15%-20% at BEST.....

Also, let's see if we can get data to show a comparison of profit margin for your typical Chrysler dealer with a 300 and/or LX cars and a Chevrolet dealer with a retail-sold Impala. Especially the HEMI's were commanding close to, if not, sticker price and I believe the HEMI's are still doing that. That is another consideration of what makes a car a "hit."

[Ghost Dog]

Can documentation be provided showing the 62% Fleet for Impala? I've only seen that number once, in a random post on another message board.

If its that message board post thats being quoted its a highly dubious number.

And as for packaging even the Big and Beautifull 121 inch wheelbase SS concept was just a 2+2. In fact Gm has'nt shown a single RWD concept that was more then a 2+2 with that silly full length center console. SS,Torana,Insignia,Camaro all 2+2's

And the rear seatroom on the STS has recieved much criticism in reviews.

[The O.C.]

Can documentation be provided showing the 62% Fleet for Impala? I've only seen that number once, in a random post on another message board.

If its that message board post thats being quoted its a highly dubious number.

And as for packaging even the Big and Beautifull 121 inch wheelbase SS concept was just a 2+2. In fact Gm has'nt shown a single RWD concept that was more then a 2+2 with that silly full length center console. SS,Torana,Insignia,Camaro all 2+2's

And the rear seatroom on the STS has recieved much criticism in reviews.

The 62% figure is FACT.

Turbo200 posted a thread a few weeks ago with lots of models' fleet percentages (not just Impala) and he was a shocked as I was or as most of us on that post were.

His numbers came from some legit source but I don't remember (for the life of me) what it was at this time....

[Flybrian]

62% is legit, but I do have to wonder if the overall percentage will fall as the '06 has now fully-replaced the '05 for retail, etc.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Just because you own one, doesn't make you part of the loyal following... and being part of the loyal following doesn't mean having to sacrifice. But yes, they each have a very loyal following, just like Fieros. Like it or not, guys.

Besides, of those vehicles that actually exist, they aren't the equivilent of a V6, 5 seat, midsize Grand Prix coupe . That could either mean the GP isn't what you wanted in the first place, securing the idea that you are far from the loyal following... Or that you have low standards as to which vehicles you'd choose, as in you don't have a secure preference.

Well, I can't wait for these small RWD cars.. if one's a Pontiac in the form of a coupe. B)

Astros have loyal followings in Japan, even the Aztek has a loyal following. What does that mean?

I wanted a Grand Prix ever since the restyle in 97. I could never afford one. I went through 3 Grand Ams. Then I could afford a Grand Prix so I bought one. I love the car, and it is almost perfect. I love the style. But it should be RWD with a V8. The GTO fixes that, and almost has the same looks. The GTO is not perfect either, it's too big, and a few hundred lbs too heavy.

And about the Impala vs. 300, the 300 is doing better in the market. The 300s avg transaction price was around $29,000. I'm sure people aren't even buying full loaded Impala's for that price. The Impala is not bringing in new buyers. The 300 is. People who never considered a Chrysler before are buying 300s. If you wouldn't consider a Chevy, then the Impala would not change that. Also Chrysler is not Chevy. They could have identical cars, and Chevy would still sell more.

[Ghost Dog]

The whole transaction price thing came up when GM decided to copycat the PT Cruiser. Is The HHR selling for 23K ?

[razoredge]

All right fleeters......... So the sherriffs and county departments and state departments buy Impalas or American built and manufactured cars........ BFD....what do you want them to use, hun duhs ?

Now are you implying that these cars go to fleet because they are FWD......this week.....I mean a few weeks ago it was for other reasons...dash plastic I believe.

Not that I dont understand certain implications of "fleet", its just amusing to hear that good ol trump card like its all airport rentals and because of these its the whats wrong with GM flavor of the week.

just don't consider FWD being all it's cracked up to be in winter weather traction. As we all know, when you begin attempting to accelerate on bad roads in a FWD car, you transfer some of the weight of the vehicle OFF the drive wheels. In a RWD car, you are transferring weight TO the drive wheels. With modern traction control and stability control systems helping to maximize what control you have back there, and you know how to drive and handle a RWD car, I think you are for the most part going to get where you are going. 12-inches of unplowed snow isn't going to make driving easy if you are RWD OR FWD.

You cant get FWD/snow traction facts based on supposition about weight transfer, especially when RWD doesnt have enough traction in snow to transfer weight. I'll go with my 30 years experience driving and enjoying both in rural hilltown Northeastern America, and so will the Honda, Toyota, VW & Saab drivers, thats all we're saying, debating or denying it just doesnt make any sence, it is what it is. The majority of people in the northern part of this continent do not want RWD for their only car, especially the ladies, most likely 50 percent of the driveing population, though I was just told women out number men....I dont know but I didnt believe it.

Maybe traction control is enough..but "posi" only used to help, so Im a bit pessimistic. We shut TC off on the LSS because its hard to go anywhere with the brakes on

A guy in a older Toyota 4X4 caught up with me on way to work today, 3" of fresh sloppy stuff, the worst. I had the Ciera wagon, we got to a steep hill and I noticed he was falling back sliddin around some, he was in 2wd. Ive drivin limited slip rear axles in snow and it still took weigh in the trunk to conquer hills or even chains if bad enough, while all seasons on a FWD just does it, every day, day in and day out. Yep its rare like a few days a month -typically- and only of concern for 4-5 months out of the year but driving to work in the winter is at the forefront of all northern N Americans minds when car shopping.

This is why I dont believe any division should completely abandon FWD. Nor do I think its fair that Caddy got the only RWD chassis. Maybe as GM transitions into more modern RWD's in various sizes and "shapes" we'll be able to see how or if the markets shift in the snow belts.

Balance, carefully calculated balance. Unlike they did in 1988.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The whole transaction price thing came up when GM decided to copycat the PT Cruiser.  Is The HHR selling for 23K  ?

When my parents were buying a car they were all marked up to $25,000. The stripper model was $23,000. So yes, they are, or at least were. They couldn't keep them on the lot.

[Sixty8panther]

Hmmm...while I agree with you for the most part, the FWD monte carlos _are_ showing up at car shows ...

Alright... Just for laughs here's the sickest FWD car I've ever seen at a carshow. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread thei car was seen at the Car Show held at Adesa Auction House (formally a G-body GM plant) in Framingham Mass this past Saturday.

Not poking fun at you KF, just trying to make fun of Ricers.

Edited January 24, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Ghost Dog]

Fleet sales PDF Oct 04 - March 05

http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2005/cars_web.pdf

Edited January 24, 2006 by Ghost Dog

[turbo200]

fleets

GM sells to fleets because it's a way to make money. It props up volume that they otherwise wouldn't have and increases market share. It generates some profit but not nearly as much as retail sales because fleet groups purchase their cars at greatly discounted rates.

Fleet sales are bad because: (1) they badly hurt the image of a car. The general public sees they cars they buy and drive as personal reflections on thier style, intellect, and purchasing power. They want something that has class, doesn't make them look like they are about to go bankrupt, and isn't some run of the mill car being driven by the cops, taxis, etc. (2) fleet sales hurt resale value. Resale value is already one of the bigger problems facing GM, not just because of fleet sales, moreso because of deep discounting that would be remedied if GM built desirable cars in the first place that didn't require discounting to sell them, you know cars that public actually wants, not just cars people settle for because it's the blue light special. cough***ahem**** HEMI, RWD, 340 hp ***** desirable features that help to sell a car

Edited January 24, 2006 by turbo200

[turbo200]

Fleet sales PDF  Oct 04 - March  05

http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2005/cars_web.pdf

thanks for finding those, sonic

Those numbers are awful.

Malibu 49%

Impala 62%

Grand Prix 52%

Chrysler 300 21%

Toyota Camry 15%

Honda Accord 2%

This helps to show how dire the situation is over at the tubes. GM may have good volume numbers, that are always on the downturn, but they are seriously selling to fleets, moreso than most.

As I said above, W-body sales are helped immensely by fleets. 62% brings Impala back down below yearly 300 total sales. That 20% of 300 sales probably satisfies the difference tying them in retail sales. 300 sells at prices well above Impala, and is RWD. I've never argued it couldn't be done with FWD. I've always argued it can be done better with RWD, especially because the pricing and size of Impala necessitate high power engines, cash in the name value, and RWD with over 300 hp beings to make a lot of sense. Of course, not all the models would sell like this, but I have always argued the next, RWD, Impala's lineup could look like the current one, with a lower powered entrant for mainstreamers, but with the same style, proportioning, and solid platform of the topline model.

[turbo200]

As Turbo200 quoted in a previous post, last year, Impala was 62% fleet.  I don't see that as any indication of a "hit" either with consumers that actually purchase their cars or for the dealers that make next to nothing each time they courtesy deliver a fleet car.

Don't expect the new Impala to seriously reduce those fleet numbers.......as nice as the new one is compared to the old one, it is (based upon how many I see at rental lots) and will continue to be a VERY strong fleet vehicle for Chevrolet/GM.

I too would be curious to see the fleet percentages of the 300 and/or LX cars.  I'm going to bet it's around 15%-20% at BEST.....

Also, let's see if we can get data to show a comparison of profit margin for your typical Chrysler dealer with a 300 and/or LX cars and a Chevrolet dealer with a retail-sold Impala.  Especially the HEMI's were commanding close to, if not, sticker price and I believe the HEMI's are still doing that.  That is another consideration of what makes a car a "hit."

thanks for backing me up on this one OC, as always, you're a voice of reason.

You're numbers and comments for Chrysler were right on the mark

[sciguy_0504]

2006 FLEET INCENTIVES

Malibu: $2,000

Maxx: $2,500

Cobalt: $1,500

Impala: $2,000

Lacrosse: $2,500

Rendevouz: $3,000

Lucerne: $1,500

Five Hundred: $1,000

Fusion: $500

Taurus: $3,000

Grand Marquis: $3,000

Milan: $500

Zephyr: $500

PT Cruiser: $2,000

Sebring: $3,000

LX Cars: $1,000

Camry: $900

Avalon: $200

Highlander: $900

Tundra V8-only: $2,000 (highest in Toyota's range)

All Nissan vehicles $1,000 except Murano ($500) and Sentra ($1,500) and Z ($0).

[stickmax]

Getting back on topic, this was my post:

As far as Saab is concerned, they should only make FWD or AWD vehicle. A RWD Saab is not acceptable though an AWD vehicle based on a RWD platform is. On the other hand, Cadillac and Pontiac should be GM's RWD divisions with no FWD or AWD vehicles based on a FWD platform under those brands. Chevy, Buick, and even Saturn to a degree should be mixed between RWD and FWD.

Chevy should concentrate on RWD coupes like the Camaro, Chevelle, Monte Carlo, and obviously the Corvette in addition to a RWD Impala sedan.

Pontiac as already mention would be all RWD be the poor man’s American BMW as Bob Lutz intends with compact and midsize vehicles sold in a variety of styles (sedan, coupe, etc.)

Buick can be split between premium sedans that are FWD and more expensive near-luxury sedans that are RWD. Buick does not roadsters and coupes especially given the fact that Buick is part of the combined Pontiac-Buick-GMC hierarchy.

Saturn has the Sky already and could add RWD coupe along the lines of the Curve concept and a RWD flagship based off the Opel Insignia concept.

Cadillac would continue being all RWD but expand to include both larger and smaller vehicles to compete with the best of BMW and Mercedes.

[regfootball]

Everyone also should remember that engineering any AWD alternative (be it RWD-biased or not) adds cost, weight, and complexity.  AND recent reviews of Audi's recent RWD-biased sport sedans shows that, as nice as they are, it still can't turn an Audi into a "BMW."

I believe there are business cases for FWD and RWD cars....with AWD versions when appropriate or necessary.  I like the Malibu/FWD, Impala/RWD kind-of thinking.

Whenever I've lived in a snow-belt city (Detroit and Philadelphia) I've driven plenty of RWD cars with basic all-season tires and modern traction-control systems and for 95% of the driving scenarios, that got me through almost as well as any FWD car because MOST of the time, cities are quite responsive in cleaning/plowing streets.  Now, maybe if I lived in a rural area where they didn't maintain the roads as well, I'd really have to look at AWD.

I just don't consider FWD being all it's cracked up to be in winter weather traction.  As we all know, when you begin attempting to accelerate on bad roads in a FWD car, you transfer some of the weight of the vehicle OFF the drive wheels.  In a RWD car, you are transferring weight TO the drive wheels.  With modern traction control and stability control systems helping to maximize what control you have back there, and you know how to drive and handle a RWD car, I think you are for the most part going to get where you are going.  12-inches of unplowed snow isn't going to make driving easy if you are RWD OR FWD.

I believe FWD's advantages are greater in the area of packaging of the drivetrain to maximize interior roominess and would like to see it utilized in automotive segments where those traits are most welcome or essential for success.

the supposed 5% of the time where it fails you is the part that really sucks and is what makes it inconvenient for owners.

[regfootball]

Astros have loyal followings in Japan, even the Aztek has a loyal following. What does that mean?

I wanted a Grand Prix ever since the restyle in 97. I could never afford one. I went through 3 Grand Ams. Then I could afford a Grand Prix so I bought one. I love the car, and it is almost perfect. I love the style. But it should be RWD with a V8. The GTO fixes that, and almost has the same looks. The GTO is not perfect either, it's too big, and a few hundred lbs too heavy.

And about the Impala vs. 300, the 300 is doing better in the market. The 300s avg transaction price was around $29,000. I'm sure people aren't even buying full loaded Impala's for that price. The Impala is not bringing in new buyers. The 300 is. People who never considered a Chrysler before are buying 300s. If you wouldn't consider a Chevy, then the Impala would not change that. Also Chrysler is not Chevy. They could have identical cars, and Chevy would still sell more.

i see new impalas every day. they are selling like hot cakes here!

[regfootball]

All right fleeters......... So the sherriffs and county departments and state departments buy Impalas or American built and manufactured cars........ BFD....what do you want them to use, hun duhs ?

Now are you implying that these cars go to fleet because they are FWD......this week.....I mean a few weeks ago it was for other reasons...dash plastic I believe.

Not that I dont understand certain implications of "fleet", its just amusing to hear that good ol trump card like its all airport rentals and because of these its the whats wrong with GM flavor of the week.

You cant get FWD/snow traction facts based on supposition about weight transfer, especially when RWD doesnt have enough traction in snow to transfer weight. I'll go with my 30 years experience driving and enjoying both in rural hilltown Northeastern America, and so will the Honda, Toyota, VW & Saab drivers, thats all we're saying, debating or denying it just doesnt make any sence, it is what it is. The majority of people in the northern part of this continent do not want RWD for their only car, especially the ladies, most likely 50 percent of the driveing population, though I was just told women out number men....I dont know but I didnt believe it.

Maybe traction control is enough..but "posi" only used to help, so Im a bit pessimistic. We shut TC off on the LSS because its hard to go anywhere with the brakes on 

A guy in a older Toyota 4X4 caught up with me on way to work today, 3" of fresh sloppy stuff, the worst. I had the Ciera wagon, we got to a steep hill and I noticed he was falling back sliddin around some, he was in 2wd. Ive drivin limited slip rear axles in snow and it still took weigh in the trunk to conquer hills or even chains if bad enough, while all seasons on a FWD just does it, every day, day in and day out. Yep its rare like a few days a month -typically- and only of concern for 4-5 months out of the year but driving to work in the winter is at the forefront of all northern N Americans minds when car shopping.

This is why I dont believe any division should completely abandon FWD. Nor do I think its fair that Caddy got the only RWD chassis. Maybe as GM transitions into more modern RWD's in various sizes and "shapes" we'll be able to see how or if the markets shift in the snow belts. 

Balance, carefully calculated balance. Unlike they did in 1988.

can i buy you a beer? that post was virtually perfect.

[CaddyXLR-V]

i see new impalas every day.  they are selling like hot cakes here!

Me too. But sadly alot of them have a little green e on them. I think I see more 300s with hemis than I see of new Impalas. I have yet to see an SS other than at the dealership. The 300 is more of a competitor to the Bonneville than the Impala. The Camry outsells the 3 series, but that doesn't make it a better car.

[knightfan26917]

KF:

I think Ocnblu was saying like 20 years from now they will not be classics or cult cars like Camaros, Charger R/Ts & BMWs.

I thought of that, too ... but, still, if you look through the FWD monte carlo boards/clubs, you might see a different story.....

"And quite frankly, I can't imagine a front-drive version of Camaro."

Heh. And I could never have imagined a FWD monte carlo. But, Chevrolet keeps claiming they made 'em.

*sighs*

I get the feeling that Chevrolet has the idea/notion that all they have to do is make a RWD car ... no matter what its name is ... and they will win back all of their enthusiasts.

Wrong. As much as I like the Camaro, a new RWD Camaro will not turn my eyes off the current Dodge Charger.

*shrugs*

But, I know...that's just me .

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new? Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[Sixty8panther]

KF:

...still a RWD camaro is better than claining that the cobalt and Monte are mustng fighters. Give me a freeekin break!

[The O.C.]

All right fleeters......... So the sherriffs and county departments and state departments buy Impalas or American built and manufactured cars........ BFD....what do you want them to use, hun duhs ?

You cant get FWD/snow traction facts based on supposition about weight transfer, especially when RWD doesnt have enough traction in snow to transfer weight.

First of all, the majority of "fleet" sales go to the rental companies. GM doesn't make money on fleet sales....believe me, I know. It's a way to keep the factories pumping. Dealers don't make any money on fleet sales, either. You might argue about positive exposure for GM with their rental fleets....but I wonder if the cost of doing fleet business outweighs any positive exposure GM would get from consumers renting their cars...?

Read my post again regarding FWD versus RWD. I'm not talking about snow traction "facts." I was offering MY opinion based upon MY experiences driving both FWD and RWD in snow climates when I lived there (Detroit and Philadelphia.)

[The O.C.]

i see new impalas every day.  they are selling like hot cakes here!

Of all the Impalas I've seen here, where I was close enough to check, ALL of them minus 2 (one LTZ and one SS) have been rental cars (with the barcode in the driver's side rear window.)

[razoredge]

the FWD GM's are popular here in the snow country of NY State also, not sure about down state. Impalas, GPs, GA's everywhere, at one time there was LeSabres and Eighty Eights commin out of every steet, Cieras are still abundant. Lacrosse is more common now. Im just fianlly starting to see a few 300's or magnums every once in awhile. Same with CTS, it didnt seem to be very popular, but thats just going by "spottings". This is why I asked if anyone had Cadillac sales fugures for 1996 and then for 04 or 05 ?

We can only speculate as to whether is a drivewheel issue , or "dash plastic" issue, or styling issue or whatever, once again it makes no sense to make to much issue of it. We all know some new buyers are going to want FWD and some are going to want RWD, some are gonna feel up the dash board and some arent gonna give a hoot.

I live near Albany so there is lots and lots of municiple vehicals running around, the W Impala was a big seller for county sherrifs and city cops. Seems like much of the state workers have been running Fords for quite a few years now. I dont know my models so I cant tell you which ones. The mans whos land Im currently working on has a state appointed .........um??? little Ford.....Escort ?

It would be a hella thang if they were running around in Yotas or Hun Duhs.

I cant help anyone with their "rental" issues, someone has to sell rental agencys cars..........should that be Hyundia and Kia or do we want American cars available at our airports ? I dont know and I dont really care......actually.

[The O.C.]

I cant help anyone with their "rental" issues, someone has to sell rental agencys cars..........should that be Hyundia and Kia or do we want American cars available at our airports ? I dont know and I dont really care......actually.

You should care.....

It's one of the major factors (negatively) affecting the resale value of your GM car....

[turbo200]

the supposed 5% of the time where it fails you is the part that really sucks and is what makes it inconvenient for owners.

This is when AWD comes into play. If you feel like you get into that situation a lot, then AWD is for you. In that case, a FWD or RWD car are almost as likely to get stuck.

I think the real issue is with wheelspin and sliding in a RWD car. This can be remedied with judicious driving.

Driving through Chicago in a small RWD 240sx, about 2600 lbs, I encountered some rough conditions. I had issues with tailspinning at times, but judiciously applying the throttle pedal fixed this. Problem solved. This was with regular all-seasons, dedicated winter tires would have helped a lot I'm sure, and no sandbags of any sort in the hatch over the rear wheels. No more tailspinning as long as I took care of the pedal. anyone that knows Chicago conditions knows, on average, winter can be convered in snow for at least half the season. Snow storms come in one form: abundant. But cities react and plow, as OC said, and driving conditions become sustainable again.

Would AWD have helped me? Yes it would have, but the problems I encounted with RWD were not enough to convince me it was necessary. Once I was driving in a snow storm, the kind of soft, slippery snow that is just right for wet conditions. I pushed the throttle too hard and ended up on the opposite side of the road going against traffic, yeah scary. Luckily the cars were at least 200 yards away from me and had seen what happened and were able to stop in time. But it was my fault for risking everything by not even using winter tires or sandbags!! In that case, I say let crash results take care of it.

RWD is too fun to have done away with it completely. We have all been victim to these soulless, tippy, overwrought FWD appliances [and I've been driving a good one, don't know about the rest of you, cough *500* cough] for too long. Cheap RWD has been completely gone from the marketplace, along with good innovative designs, and it's been to the detriment of the automotive landscape. Thankfully things are looking up.

[turbo200]

You should care.....

It's one of the major factors (negatively) affecting the resale value of your GM car....

I think razor is probably beyond the point of caring about his investment....

[razoredge]

This is when AWD comes into play. If you feel like you get into that situation a lot, then AWD is for you. In that case, a FWD or RWD car are almost as likely to get stuck.

I think the real issue is with wheelspin and sliding in a RWD car. This can be remedied with judicious driving.

Driving through Chicago in a small RWD 240sx, about 2600 lbs, I encountered some rough conditions. I had issues with tailspinning at times, but judiciously applying the throttle pedal fixed this. Problem solved. This was with regular all-seasons, dedicated winter tires would have helped a lot I'm sure, and no sandbags of any sort in the hatch over the rear wheels. No more tailspinning as long as I took care of the pedal. anyone that knows Chicago conditions knows, on average, winter can be convered in snow for at least half the season. Snow storms come in one form: abundant. But cities react and plow, as OC said, and driving conditions become sustainable again.

absolutely screwy, this has had to been one of the most painful paragraphs I have read yet. Thats really out there.

[pow]

This is when AWD comes into play. If you feel like you get into that situation a lot, then AWD is for you. In that case, a FWD or RWD car are almost as likely to get stuck.

I think the real issue is with wheelspin and sliding in a RWD car. This can be remedied with judicious driving.

Driving through Chicago in a small RWD 240sx, about 2600 lbs, I encountered some rough conditions. I had issues with tailspinning at times, but judiciously applying the throttle pedal fixed this. Problem solved. This was with regular all-seasons, dedicated winter tires would have helped a lot I'm sure, and no sandbags of any sort in the hatch over the rear wheels. No more tailspinning as long as I took care of the pedal. anyone that knows Chicago conditions knows, on average, winter can be convered in snow for at least half the season. Snow storms come in one form: abundant. But cities react and plow, as OC said, and driving conditions become sustainable again.

Would AWD have helped me? Yes it would have, but the problems I encounted with RWD were not enough to convince me it was necessary. Once I was driving in a snow storm, the kind of soft, slippery snow that is just right for wet conditions. I pushed the throttle too hard and ended up on the opposite side of the road going against traffic, yeah scary. Luckily the cars were at least 200 yards away from me and had seen what happened and were able to stop in time. But it was my fault for risking everything by not even using winter tires or sandbags!! In that case, I say let crash results take care of it.

RWD is too fun  to have done away with it completely. We have all been victim to these soulless, tippy, overwrought FWD appliances [and I've been driving a good one, don't know about the rest of you, cough *500* cough] for too long. Cheap RWD has been completely gone from the marketplace, along with good innovative designs, and it's been to the detriment of the automotive landscape. Thankfully things are looking up.

Electronic stability program would really help in this regard... we drove our RWD, all-seasoned tire 5-series to Mammoth, and we didn't have any issues with the falling snow.

[razoredge]

I think razor is probably beyond the point of caring about his investment....

tee hee hee hee hee..that was so cute...ah.....

Well TURBO200 I dont care if GM has cars in rental fleets........OK ? Notice Im talKing directly to YOU ? not through someone elses post ?

Its not a big issue to me, I dont dwell on it, I have things that concern me more, am I allowed to do that ? Is there something wrong with being one of the many that doesnt think because a car has also been sold to a rental company its no good ? Now lets see some of that maturity and stop with the "cute".

You should care.....

It's one of the major factors (negatively) affecting the resale value of your GM car....

OC, I understand this problem, it is a shame for buyers of new GM's that this affects their resale or trade in. I also realize its a pull out for the hard shopping car buyer. I can not help this, lets just see if anything can. GM's lower resale value has offered me great buys on the cars I have owned. I have very low dollar per mile auto expence, so for that reason as well, it does not effect me..........HOWEVER ! That was still not what I was talking about, I just dont really care if GM are in rental fleets or driven by government agencies, as in it doesnt bother me....it doesnt matter to me.

You guys claim you have no GMs where your living, let me ask you, from where Im living and the amount of GM cars I see around, has it ever occured to you, as it has to me, that maybe, just maybe, we are seeing two different pictures ? AND have two different ideas on the agendas ?

[Cory Wolfe]

Astros have loyal followings in Japan, even the Aztek has a loyal following. What does that mean?

I wanted a Grand Prix ever since the restyle in 97. I could never afford one. I went through 3 Grand Ams. Then I could afford a Grand Prix so I bought one. I love the car, and it is almost perfect. I love the style. But it should be RWD with a V8. The GTO fixes that, and almost has the same looks. The GTO is not perfect either, it's too big, and a few hundred lbs too heavy.

Sixty8 and company talked about how most FWD will not be collectors, basically saying that they are undesired and don't or will not have loyal followings. I pointed out that FWD Grand Ams and Grand Prix have very loyal followings, which is factual. What you said you would do for certain vehicles other than your GP lead me to say that you wouldn't be considered part of the loyal following they have. That and the vehicles you mentioned, some nonexistant as of yet, and that you think the GP should be anything other than it is did as well. Again, owning and wanting a certain car does not necessarily make you part of it's loyal following. I've always wanted a GA. When I realized that I couldn't possibly own a Fiero, I decided upon a GA instead. I loved it and thought that it was perfect for the most part. I didn't wish for it to have had a bigger engine or to be RWD. It was what it was and that is why I loved it. When it started experiencing major engine problems, I decided that it would not be replaced with another GA. Not because it wasn't RWD or didn't have a bigger engine... but because of reliability and, being my current situation, not being able to afford any possible problems I may have because of that.

[turbo200]

Electronic stability program would really help in this regard... we drove our RWD, all-seasoned tire 5-series to Mammoth, and we didn't have any issues with the falling snow.

which is really my point exactly. my 240 was missing traction control, stability control and winter tires. no helping nannies equals big risk.

thanks for the comment reg. I enjoyed that, seriously. I know it seems like a screwy situation to be in, I was really only scared at the point it lost control and I realized I wouldn't be able to do anything about it anymore, once I was on the other side of the road I really wasn't panicing. It was grace and it was a miracle that saved me and allowed no cars to be near me on this usually very busy road. However, all the electronic nannies, or at least tires with better traction would have helped.

[turbo200]

Let me add to that story a little bit. The real big issue was the kind of snow that was coming down and the rate at which it was coming down. I stepped on the throttle and the snow was just slippery enough and piling on the road just right that my car ended up spinning.

I really didn't do much after I lost control, and I got to school fine after that.

[knightfan26917]

KF:

...still a RWD camaro is better than claining that the cobalt and Monte are mustng fighters. Give me a freeekin break!

I wasn't arguin' that . I agree with you.....

[CaddyXLR-V]

Sixty8 and company talked about how most FWD will not be collectors, basically saying that they are undesired and don't or will not have loyal followings. I pointed out that FWD Grand Ams and Grand Prix have very loyal followings, which is factual. What you said you would do for certain vehicles other than your GP lead me to say that you wouldn't be considered part of the loyal following they have. That and the vehicles you mentioned, some nonexistant as of yet, and that you think the GP should be anything other than it is did as well. Again, owning and wanting a certain car does not necessarily make you part of it's loyal following. I've always wanted a GA. When I realized that I couldn't possibly own a Fiero, I decided upon a GA instead. I loved it and thought that it was perfect for the most part. I didn't wish for it to have had a bigger engine or to be RWD. It was what it was and that is why I loved it. When it started experiencing major engine problems, I decided that it would not be replaced with another GA. Not because it wasn't RWD or didn't have a bigger engine... but because of reliability and, being my current situation, not being able to afford any possible problems I may have because of that.

So if GM turned the Grand Am into an echo you would still be loyal?

[Camino LS6]

Here's the response I posted to the latest "And Furthermore" posting on the Fast lane Blog.

Yes to a mix of RWD,FWD, and AWD. Obviously, the wholesale conversion of the big 3 to FWD back in the 80's was a near-fatal error. Here's a thumbnail of what seems obvious to me in a few concise bits of advice.

Speed counts when going from show to showroom.

Flexible platforms(architecture) are essential.

Look to Holden for d**n near everything.

Listen to the folks that buy the cars, we are more than happy to tell you what we want.

Be bold and creative if you want to survive.

Did I say look to Holden?

[Cory Wolfe]

So if GM turned the Grand Am into an echo you would still be loyal?

Did I say I was loyal? Didn't think so.

With that said, that wasn't my point. Please reread my post and realize what I'm trying to say... and what I'm not. It's not being loyal to the name only, it's being loyal to the car itself that is attached to the name. As in the FWD Grand Ams and Grand Prixs of the '90s. They have loyal followings. Again, it's factual and that was my point. What don't you understand that you keep bringing up?

[regfootball]

You should care.....

It's one of the major factors (negatively) affecting the resale value of your GM car....

than all those camry's should be dropping like rocks. the hertz by my house keeps them well stocked.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Did I say I was loyal? Didn't think so.

With that said, that wasn't my point. Please reread my post and realize what I'm trying to say... and what I'm not. It's not being loyal to the name only, it's being loyal to the car itself that is attached to the name. As in the FWD Grand Ams and Grand Prixs of the '90s. They have loyal followings. Again, it's factual and that was my point. What don't you understand that you keep bringing up?

Well my point is, how can someone be loyal to a car? The Malibu used to be a Chevelle Malibu, with big V8s and RWD, now, it is a bland FWD V6 fleet sedan. I'm sure there are no loyal followers of the Grand Prix that will only buy one specific Grand Prix, and no other car. I'm sure many who seem loyal, would not turn down a GTO given the chance to own one.

I was thinking by loyal followers you meant, the people who own one, search all the websites for mods for them, and like to talk on forums with other people who have them, which I do. Loyal doesnt necessarily mean you think the cars perfect, and nothing should ever be changed about it, at least to me it doesnt.

[regfootball]

absolutely screwy, this has had to been one of the most painful paragraphs I have read yet. Thats really out there.

considering he's the 3% of the population that would prefer to manage a fishtailing RWDer vs. a steadily predictable FWDer in snowy weather.

It always comes down to situations like this that will make a 'typical' northerner want FWD or AWD

-not being able to get up a 3% driveway in 4-6 inches of wet snow with a RWD car when a FWD car will do it easily. Imagine the frustration of not being able to get your car in your garage during a snowstorm.

-not being able to make it through an icy intersection during a red light cycle in your front heavy RWD car before the light turns red because you literally have no traction on the drive wheels, especially if there is any sort of incline, with about 10 pissed off FWD and AWD drivers behind you because they all could have eaisly made it through the intersection on that cycle. Yes, that even includes pickups with 200 pounds or lots more of weight right over the rear drive axle. imagine the pain of trying to drive home from work and literally having to fight to get thorugh each intersection stop and go....stop, go, or TRY to go.

-trying to navigate and steer and stop and turn in tight parking ramps that have their paths iced over. drive up a steep incline trying to keep from losing all traction, so as not to actually go down the ramp. try not to have to make a dead stop on a ramp and then resume, only to have your rear wheels say, 'no'. this problem is magnetized 10 times over on an icy ramp slope up with a manual tranny and cars in front and behind you waiting. or my favorite one, 'get up a head of steam' from the bottom of the ramp,floor it just enough so you willhave enough 'momentum' to ascend to the top of the ramp and pray that there's no ice right at the top because you'll need to 'brake and pivot' on a dime to navigate the ramp. otherwise, your car won't make it up. FWD cars can makeit up those kind of ramps just fine with a little ice on them. the big spiral multi-level corkscrew exits when iced up are even as much fun!

-freezing rain escapades. on interstates and freeways. nice fresh glaze on the road. no exit for miles. stop and start traffic. disruptive drivers. at least with fwd you have a lot more of a chance of staying on the road up to a certain speed.

-my favorite one with my thunderbird. all i wanted to do was get home. it started snowing, fast enough and wet enough so that i couldn't get out of the parking lot. both exits from the lot were up inclines. it took 4 people (3 people pushing) and a lucky 'brake and pivot' at the entrance to the road, but i was lucky no one was coming on the road. i'm lucky i didn't slide off the road and into the ditch across from the driveway. its not like you had the opportunity to time it vs.oncoming traffic. oh yes, i had traction control.

-then there's the flat 180's and 360's....we've all done em. a few of those on a slippery road which you can easily navigate much better with a fwd car.

the only RWD I had that was not a skate in winter was my 77 century coupe and that was due to the fact that the wheezer 3800 (105 hp!!) was very light and had no torque. plus, my all seasons were good. and even then it still was not near as good as my 89 sho was in the snow. my 89 SHO was absolutely unbeatable in snow. that car was my snowmobile.

i work in an office with maybe 80-100 people. i CANNOT think of more than person who has a RWD only car. he has a BMW 330 with snows in the winter. and he has it only for the style factor. oh wait, one guy has an s-10 rwd. no one i work with has a charger, chrysler 300, crown vic, marauder, GTO, i am even scratching my ass thinking if ANYONE has a pony car. TONS of SUV's of all makes and sized, most with AWD. Lots of pickups with 4Wd. Lots of Jeeps. minivans, mid sized fwd and compact fwd cars.

i maintain, RWD will be great for sports and niche markets. GM would be foolish to expect big market surges from RWD only products.

i still get a kick out of seeing my neighbor dude's reaction (he works for dodge in some capacity) when i asked him if the RWD 300's and magnums were any good in snow......LOL.....i doubt those electronic nannies are as effective as chrylser would want you to believe....

as far as rentals...would y'all rather have hyundai and kia and toyota get all those fleet sales and increase their market share?

Edited January 26, 2006 by regfootball

[razoredge]

CaddyXLR- I understand the point you are trying to make but just for reference........the Malibu was never nothing but a house wifes grocery getter. A better car than Nova by far but still a dime a dozen just like the Nova. It wazs no more in its time than today Malibu............did I forget to say......they were terrible in the snow.......as were all cars that didnt have studded snows & 200lb in the trunk.... thats how we did "weight transfer"

Reg - Now come on, we all know the only reason you had problems was becasue you dont know how to drive Read turbos post over and over again until you have the technique memorized.......then go out a practice it.......until it becomes natural instinct........ . Then once you pass that grade you can move on to the OC school of driving.

Edited January 26, 2006 by razoredge