Informal Survey Time-Fastlane Blog

[thegriffon]

Given the results of C&G Polls, this should be interesting:

Informal Survey Time

By Jack Keebler

GM Director--Advanced Concepts Group

One of the things that GM would like to better understand is the level of enthusiasm for rear-wheel drive versus front-wheel drive, particularly for young buyers of compact and sub-compact cars. Our belief is that front-wheel drive cars can be very rewarding to drive if properly set up. We also like the interior packaging space advantages, low mass and poor-weather traction of front-drive vehicles.

At Saab, there is a long and storied tradition of fast, reliable rally cars. These cars fed significant power through the front wheels and yet remained stable and entertaining to drive, which proved particularly important in long-distance races.

At auto shows we're starting to see many small rear-drive concepts.

What do you think, should we work toward fun-to-drive front-drive or is rear-drive with all-wheel drive a better solution?

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2006/...l_survey_1.html

Edited January 21, 2006 by thegriffon

[z28luvr01]

Unfortunately (or, perhaps, fortunately for them), I don't see a means to add a comment, or I would have added a rather lengthy response already.

[Cory Wolfe]

Same here... tried to add a comment, but couldn't find a way to.

[wildcat]

I know that Saab was mentioned, but is GM asking this on Pontiac's potential behalf - to perhaps take it in a totally new direction?

[caddycruiser]

I'd like to make a short comment/selection too, but whoever posted the blog must have not set it up fully...

[thegriffon]

That has now been corrected, so post away, let GM know what you think, and esp. if you are in the market for such a car.

[regfootball]

they review all comments so their will be a lag time.

[sciguy_0504]

I smell FWD Camaro.

[Ghost Dog]

Nah. If anything would be affected it would be Impala. There would'nt be a reference to AWD for Camaro.

[turbo200]

Just finished posting. The reference is to smaller RWD and AWD cars, so it's not about Impala or even Camaro, which both are likely decided upon already. The platforms for those are most likely mostly in line arleady. Nope, they're talking about cars the size of Camaro and smaller.

[thegriffon]

I believe he is referring to concepts such as the Razor, Urge, Kabura, Fiora etc.

[turbo200]

hey grif, here's my post.....I'm pretty happy with it, hope it communicates the right message:

Hi, first of all, I commend you for taking this approach and reaching out to consumers, who ultimately matter most. I think this is an extremely important question, and one that could ultimately lead GM to new directions and unique directives for certain brands. Ultimately the question should be, how many people are willing to drive a RWD car for the sake of the neutrality, balance, and overall sportiness. No matter what you argue, FWD simply cannot replicate the athletic feel and perfect balance that a well-proportioned RWD car can; and the FWD cars you make, aside from the Astra, are not compelling arguments in your favor either. RWD in today's world is a premium feature. Luxury makes and expensive cars have it, but aside from the 350Z, Mustang and a couple other lower priced cars, there are no sporty cars in the 15k-30k region offered. GM has oft-been critized of being late to the party and not understanding where the customer is going and where they would like to be. In the last few years we have witnessed an explosion of all RWD/AWD cars that has amounted to significant market share gains at many automakers. Infiniti, Chrysler, Ford, BMW, MB, Lexus have all seen revolutions in recent times led by RWD cars. Can people in the middle of the country utilize RWD and not suffer because of it? Yes, this is proven. Countless hundreds of thousands of people drive BMWs every year in the Snow Belt. This is not the question GM should be asking. The question GM needs to ask themselves is, what are our brand's positioning and where do they need to go in order to survive. I am talking Buick, I am speaking of Pontiac. Thier death is almost imminent; a drastic upheaval of how cars are designed at those particular brands NEEDS to take place if I am to be thinking of Pontiac and Buick in the present-sense in 2015. This kind of upheaval does not mean abandoning the current market, but offering things even the current market for those makes could relish, and expanding beyond that base and winning back consumers from the imports. A RWD G6, G4, and G8 would be perfect for Pontiac. With the right ocntent, styling, packaging, and pricing of around 15-45k for the entire range, Pontiac would see an intense revival. As you've already surmised, I am a RWD proponent. I am not oppposed to AWD vehicles built off of RWD platforms. RWD with the kind of technology cars are packing today is more than enough for many. I can understand there are some who live in particularly hilly areas of the Snow Belt who might feel they really do need it, but I wager them to drive a new car with modern technology that is RWD and a set of snow tires and experience the reality of it. If they still need AWD, find by me, my plan calls to offer it. The new Camaro platform is something that should leveraged across Pontiac and Buick for smaller sedans, a revival of the Skylark and a new G6. The G6 would be the ultimate sport sedan priced at around where it is now. Make it with a retro Firebird face, a lot like newer Alfa's, don't forget aggressive and sexy body, and it'll sell. Buick's version would be a competitor to the S40, A4, 9-3, TSX. Cars Buick SHOULD be competing against. Come on GM, what is it going to take for you to learn that all a brand needs is new, groundbreaking product for a revival. We've got the quality and reliability, go for it! You did it at Cadillac with massive success despite questionable quality [interior quality and design does not match the competition, no excuses, performance doesn't always match rivals]; and this is only one brand story of the past five years that have seen automakers fighting for whatever piece of the pie they can. To conclude this, I will be in the market in a year for a sporty convertible right about the size of the current 3-series. I know you won't be able to offer that car within a year, but I expect my tastes won't change, and I have always wanted the sporties, most tossable car I could find. Build it for me and I will help revive Pontiac.

[turbo200]

I literally spit that out, took me about 15 minutes, it's everything i feel strongly about.

[razoredge]

Theres got to be a way to have a somewhat balanced mix across the divisions. total abandment was part of the problem so I wouldnt want to see that again in the other direction. They do need to get more caught up on AWD option but cant go total AWD either, due to expence.

[Cory Wolfe]

Turbo... Your post was almost perfect... until you had to use those alphanumerics and ask for a retro design. Damn you. I'll have to see if I can use my persuasive powers to forget those two things and remember these two things: names mean something and modern design is moving forward.

[regfootball]

Theres got to be a way to have a somewhat balanced mix across the divisions. total abandment was part of the problem so I wouldnt want to see that again in the other direction. They do need to get more caught up on AWD option but cant go total AWD either, due to expence.

one commenter in the blog said GM needs a mix of FWD, RWD, and AWD. Perhaps GM's biggest problem right now is not offering the proper mix.

Another comment that struck me was the Malibu should be FWD and the Impala RWD. I could see that to a point, but I still bet you the car dealers in the snow belts would want the AWD option for the Impala as well.

I followed a new Lexus IS today. Pulled behind it at a stoplight. AWD badge. Yup. Makes sense here in MN. Most of the newer G35 Inifiniti sedans I've seen lately here too are G35x's. I see more and more BMW ix's. At least in these luxury marques like inifiniti and such (Cadillac are you listening, CTS) AHEM...Saab are you listening (-5x, 9-3x) are seeing that folks expect this in their offerings.

Honestly, as much as snows do help (I know from experience) its a major inconvenience for most buyers. Even though a lot of smart folks know snow tires can make a RWD car passable in winter, most drivers have no desire to deal with that. Nor do they want to spend the extra money. So they drive RWD on their all seasons, are unhappy with it in the winter, and therefore don't like the product. The worst thing you can do is sell a car that does not satisfy the owner, even if they are not smart enough or are too lazy to put snows on. They simply will say 'the car sucks and its unsafe or a pain in the ass to get around in', and tell all their friends. Just like the older realtor lady I knew who bought the last version IS Lexus and then traded it 6 months later because she could not get around in it. She hated the car, snows woulda helped, but she had no clue and woulda been too lazy to do it anyways.

So if you sell the RWD based on 'improved performance', but the everyday practicality of the car in bad weather doesn't measure up, they'll still begrudge the car and in fact will hate it more because of the higher expectations of it. Therefore, any almost car offered as RWD needs to give the universal option for AWD if they want to sell it and market it to larger niches and such in the US market nationwide. Why piss off dealers and make them carry unsalable inventory dollars for 4-5 months? I could see excluding cars like the Camaro and Solstice, although you might get some bites on an AWD Camaro. Anything in the vein of RWD sedan which is meant for everyday use ought to have AWD available, otherwise, you've alienated 50% of the car market and pissed off dealers. Dead inventory is retail no-no #1.

And snows on FWD or AWD will be better still than RWD with snows.

And here's the deal, styling and interiors will always reign supreme before which wheels drive the car in terms of what attracts buyers. The Chrysler 300 would sell no matter which wheels were driving the car. Most folks are buying the 300 as middle age penis extenders, and because its a cheaper version of a Mercedes with a Bently grille.

So GM should fix their pricing and styling and interiors problems as well figuring out 'which wheels drive the car'.

GM's product planning department must be utterly clueless if they are even blogging this topic so desperately looking for opinions. They must not know their head from their ass. If they were doing their job, they would have figured out by now what the markets want and should have responded. Look how badly they got caught with their pants down vs. the Mustang and 300. Its clear their product planners and brand and division managers are rudderless. It gets back to 'they should have a proper mix' of all of them.

I might be inclined to think

Chevy-mostly fwd cars, but some RWD cars and some RWD/AWD cars.

Saturn, mostly FWD, some FWD AWD to battle the hondas, toyotas and VW's and of course the RWD sky

Buick and Pontiac-mostly an even mix of RWD or RWD/AWD and a few FWD on the G6 / LaCrosse types of cars.

Saab- FWD and FWD/AWD

Cadillac-whatever works best for the product. mostly RWD or RWD/AWD.

Edited January 21, 2006 by regfootball

[capriceman]

they never post what I say there.

[knightfan26917]

*chuckles*

But, wouldn't it be ironic if this pole WAS used by GM/Chevrolet to determine if a Camaro is built, and if so, whether it is FWD or RWD?

But, Chevrolet/GM wouldn't build a RWD Camaro because they would never do that to an old nameplate, right? They've already done it 3 times ... monte carlo, malibu and impala.

*shrugs*

I'm not in the "target market", so I probably won't vote. Besides, since the target is the "young kids", I'm bettin' the results will show an overwhelming desire for FWD ... since that is about all the younger kids have known/grown up with....

*sighs*

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new? Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[pow]

I love the concept of a small, RWD, Pontiac sedan, but look at BMW and what happened to their 1-series. It was marketed as a driver-focused alternative to other hatches, its main selling point being rear-drive. But even with a BMW badge and brilliant handling, it failed in the eyes of many because of its high price and poor practicality. I can't imagine a similar Pontiac in large-car America doing any better. GM seems better off hotting up small FWD cars and offering AWD.

However, the larger and more expensive cars should definitely be RWD/AWD. Its just a shame that small, light sedans can't get it as well... this enthusiast segment is too small and import-dominated.

Edited January 21, 2006 by empowah

[thegriffon]

err. the 1-series hasn't failed by any measure. It has been acclaimed despite it's poor packaging (essentially a 2-seater), and in Europe the price really isn't that much higher than a well-equipped Golf. BMW USA hasn't taken it because hatches have yet to attain much acceptance in the US. The majority of posts are very much in favor of rwd vehicles, although some seem to have misunderstood the question.

[pow]

err. the 1-series hasn't failed by any measure. It has been acclaimed despite it's poor packaging (essentially a 2-seater), and in Europe the price really isn't that much higher than a well-equipped Golf. BMW USA hasn't taken it because hatches have yet to attain much acceptance in the US. The majority of posts are very much in favor of rwd vehicles, although some seem to have misunderstood the question.

My bad... it seemed like the European press didn't like it very much, but that doesn't always reflect on the sales. Still, smallish rear-drive cars have questionable survival in the US, IMO.

[thegriffon]

The reviews I've seen all loved it, in balance and handling it can't be beaten.

[Ghost Dog]

The best platform developement would be Front wheel drive. With a Rear Biased All wheel drive option. That platform would offer much higher volume potential.

Rear wheel drive platforms have lower appeal in volume segments.

Posted by: Ghost In the Machine at January 20, 2006 06:35 PM

[thegriffon]

Like the RL no-one is buying, or the Alfa's that still can't get no respect without rwd. While no-one is suggesting making the Aveo rwd (the only rwd subcompact in production is the Lada Classic), or even the Cobalt, rwd does have appeal for many in these volume segments. Enough at least for a smaller player such as Pontiac to carve out their own niche. Given the continuing appeal of old rwd cars such as old Novas, Chevelles, E80 Corolla/Sprinter coupes and the Nissan Silvia (about to be revived it seems), there is undoubtedly a market for an affordable rwd performance car.

[Ghost Dog]

The Rl has a Size relationship to the TL conflict.

As for the Alfa's.

Road Test: Alfa Romeo 159 (2005-)

Compact Executive by: John Simister

 

Assets

Looks terrific, mixes Italian flair with real quality, has sporty handling but a decent ride, sounds crisp and keen, is roomy and well equipped.

Drawbacks

Steering too light in some versions, awkward handbrake, mediocre fuel economy.

Verdict

Alfa's latest attempt to take on BMW's 3-Series is a worthy rival with substance as well as character. The V6 Q4 is especially good.

http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/A/...05-/15905-.html

[turbo200]

The Rl has a Size relationship to the TL conflict.

As for the Alfa's.

http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/A/...05-/15905-.html

The STS has a size conflict with the CTS and still sells well. It's not that easy to explain away.

The article you posted is not enough evidence to refute what griffon said either.

This argument with you goes way back, even when you used to argue the 300 wouldn't be a sales hit. It now sells over half what the Impala sells, with less than half the Impala's dealer body. I tried to find fleet sales to no avail, perhaps someone can fill that information in.

Besides, comparing Impala to 300, which you again did in this thread, is a moot point, since 300's average transaction prices are much much much higher than the Impala's.

You are a strong proponent for sticking to FWD. What is the problem with offering the choice? Pontiac has lost so much volume and now sells about 500k cars per year, a devastating loss compared to thier heyday, isn't it about time they tried something new?

Can you not just allow that some would rather choose from RWD setups? I just don't understand why you argue so passionately against offering choice, something GM needs in all aspects of thier car lineups, like actually offering a real competitor to the 3-series, or can you imagine a Pontiac competitor with real performance to the WRX and Mazdaspeed6?

It's obvious your predilection is to FWD, but you have not provided enough sales evidence to support your assertion that RWD cannot produce the same amount of volume given the same circumstances as a FWD car can. I have, 300, Charger, Mustang, 3-series, CTS, IS and every luxury car out there is an example that this is possible.

[Cory Wolfe]

Alright, this is what I posted:

"First off, I'm a 17 year old male who is fanatical about Pontiac and have been for most of my life. I currently own a 95 Grand Am GT with the Quad4 and a 5spd. It has experienced critical engine complications and didn't think it was worth fixing. It hasn't been that great of a car. Therefore, I am currently in the market for another vehicle. As I scanned my choices, only one car stood out, the Nissan 240SX for its RWD layout. As much as I wanted another Pontiac, I couldn't justify choosing FWD over RWD. I live in PA, by the way, and usually experience snow from late November to early March. Had Pontiac come out with a compact coupe with RWD during the '90s, I could easily say that I'd own another Pontiac.

Obviously, I am for RWD. While I respect FWD and have had some fun in my Grand Am, the benefits of RWD are far greater than those of FWD, especially for supposedly sporty vehicle.

My wish is for Pontiac to one day consist of nothing but RWD vehicles. Styling would be sexy, sleek, and thoroughly modern designs that are not afraid to be aggressive and soulful (unlike the G6 which is quite bland). My proposal:

-Grand Am would be the compact coupe, sedan, 5dr hatch, and conv at about 2900lbs. The SE would receive a 2.4L Ecotec with D.I. and a 5spd manual/auto. The GT would receive a High Output verson of the 2.4L Ecotec with D.I. and a 6spd manual/5spd auto.The GXP would receive a detuned version of the Solstice GXP's turbocharged Ecotec with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. The coupe and conv would seat 4 while the sedan and hatch would seat 5. AWD would be optional on all trims. Pricing would ideally start around $16k.

-Grand Prix would be the midsize coupe, conv and sedan at about 3200lbs. The SE would recieve a H.O. 2.4L Ecotoc with D.I. and 5spd manual/auto. The GT would receive a 2.8L V6 with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. The GXP would receive a turbocharged 2.8L V6 with D.I. and a 6spd manual/auto. The coupe and conv would seat 4, the sedan would seat 5. AWD would be optional on all trims. Pricing would ideally start around $20K.

-LeMans would be the fullsize sedan and wagon at about 3600lbs . SE would receive a 3.6L V6 with D.I. and 6spd manual/auto. GT would receive a Northstar 4.4L V8 and 6spd manual/atuo. GXP would receive a turbocharged Northstar 4.4L and 6spd manual/auto. It would seat 5 and AWD would be an option for each trim. Pricing would ideally start around $26k.

-GTO would be based off the Grand Prix with a coupe and conv. Base engine would be an LS2 V8 and a 6spd manual/auto. Optional engine would a High Output version of the LS2 V8 and a 6spd manual. It would seat 4 and pricing would start at around $28k.

-Torrent crossover would be based off the the Grand Prix's midsize platform. SE would receive the 3.6L V6 and a 6spd manual/auto. GT would receive the 4.4L Northstar V8 and a 6spd manual/auto. It would seat 5 and have standard AWD. Pricing would start around $25k.

That's my dream, however unlikely it may be. I feel going that route would find success for Pontiac and surely make enthusiasts happy. If atleast a RWD compact makes it to market someday, you have a buyer right here."

-Posted by: Cory Wolfe at January 21, 2006 01:33 AM

[Ghost Dog]

This argument with you goes way back,

Yep

even when you used to argue the 300 wouldn't be a sales hit.

I think what I've always said is that its not a hit. When Chrysler sells over 225k worth of 300's in a year then its a hit.

It now sells over half what the Impala sells,

Yep

with less than half the Impala's dealer body. I tried to find fleet sales to no avail, perhaps someone can fill that information in.

Besides, comparing Impala to 300, which you again did in this thread, is a moot point, since 300's average transaction prices are much much much higher than the Impala's.

You are a strong proponent for sticking to FWD. What is the problem with offering the choice?

Because I don't think Choice is an option. Can Gm Afford 2 architectures in the same segment? If Gm can Afford an Epsilon wide or Lambda Impala. Along with a Zeta or Sigma Grand Prix fine. But I don't think they can Afford Both.

Pontiac has lost so much volume and now sells about 500k cars per year, a devastating loss compared to thier heyday, isn't it about time they tried something new?

Can you not just allow that some would rather choose from RWD setups?  I just don't understand why you argue so passionately against offering choice, something GM needs in all aspects of thier car lineups, like actually offering a real competitor to the 3-series, or can you imagine a Pontiac competitor with real performance to the WRX and Mazdaspeed6?

The WRX is a FWD platform with symetrical AWD. The Mazdaspeed6 is FWD with Rear Biased AWD

It's obvious your predilection is to FWD, but you have not provided enough sales evidence to support your assertion that RWD cannot produce the same amount of volume given the same circumstances as a FWD car can. I have, 300, Charger, Mustang, 3-series, CTS, IS and every luxury car out there is an example that this is possible.

The 300,Charger,and Magnum barely add up to Impala alones sales. Throw in the other long in the tooth W-Bodies and its no contest. How would they Do with a fresh Design on a modern progressive FWD/AWD platform?

The Acura TL sells as well the CTS

[enzl]

Yep

I think what I've always said is that its not a hit. When Chrysler sells over 225k worth of 300's in a year then its a hit.

Yep

Because I don't think Choice is  an option. Can Gm Afford 2 architectures in the same segment? If Gm can Afford an Epsilon wide or Lambda Impala. Along with a Zeta or Sigma  Grand Prix fine. But I don't think they can Afford Both.

The WRX is a FWD platform with symetrical AWD. The Mazdaspeed6 is FWD with Rear Biased AWD

The 300,Charger,and Magnum barely add up to Impala alones sales. Throw in the other long in the tooth W-Bodies and its no contest. How would they Do with a fresh Design on a modern progressive FWD/AWD platform?

The Acura TL sells as well the CTS

This is exactly the thinking that has doomed GM to its present position in the barrel:

While there's no arguing volume, its the profitability of the LX's that is paramount. The acclaim and halo effect are just by-product of inspired thinking.

If GM doesn't have the money to invest in B,C or small D segment RWD vehicles, they should just close up shop....they are literally introducing 4 new/improved CUV platforms in the next 2 years....they don't have 1 small/medium RWD....& if volume is the rallying cry, bear in mind that Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, Opel, Vauxhall and, arguably, Caddy could all use a 3-series or smaller RWD class-killer in their line-up. They would sell at a premium in showrooms and the brands mentioned could easily sell 500,000 worldwide, with out breaking a sweat.

Don't make excuses, they need to have their thinking caps on right now....

[razoredge]

OK while your all cryin for Pontiac, Chevy and Caddy..........Buick could use an exciting smaller personal luxury car......after all they floated the fullsize BOP cars with their powertrain through out the last 2 decades. SO lets not forget whos put money into the system and who has cost money.

It is to bad that this FWD RWD situation needs to be even a thought or an arguement. Both platforms should have always been maintained at some level, while persueing affordable, reliable AWD. Now we're behind.

At the same time there is so many misconceptions being pushed as important "facts" by "enthousiasts" in the south or flat lands as to the lack of benefits of FWD. Also highly exaggerated nonsence about inferiority in handling. The difference is nothing that can be felt or of any concern at levels even 20-30 mph above posted speed limits.

I highly doubt GM's decressed sales have anything to do with which wheels drive the car.....sorry. After all according to the topic of the week havent we heard any number of main reasons that GM's sales are dropping.

[turbo200]

I think what I've always said is that its not a hit. When Chrysler sells over 225k worth of 300's in a year then its a hit.

300 outsells most in class at higher transaction prices; 300 has cast an important halo at Chrysler and singlehandedly is keeping them in the black; 300 is selling above expectations and demand is still steady 2 years from it's launch. Either you don't want to admit to it being a hit for the sake of losing an argument or you're ignorant. 

Because I don't think Choice is  an option. Can Gm Afford 2 architectures in the same segment? If Gm can Afford an Epsilon wide or Lambda Impala. Along with a

Zeta or Sigma  Grand Prix fine. But I don't think they can Afford Both.

What enzl said above is perfect. I'll add GM has exactly these crossover platforms coming: Lambda, Theta, Sub-Theta, Theta Epsilon, and Sigma. All for small, medium and medium large. Seems like a lot of choice for a segment that so far has proven rather limited.

The WRX is a FWD platform with symetrical AWD. The Mazdaspeed6 is FWD with Rear Biased AWD

WRX and 6 have been praised and are worldwide winners. When GM produces a FWD that can match thier credentials call me. I originally said "real performance"

The 300,Charger,and Magnum barely add up to Impala alones sales. Throw in the other long in the tooth W-Bodies and its no contest. How would they Do with a fresh Design on a modern progressive FWD/AWD platform?

The Acura TL sells as well the CTS

a major factor of all w-body sales is fleet, I would not be throwing the sales argument around so callously, much higher ratio and amount of sales compared to LX; consumers are NOT choosing W-body, pricing is causing them to settle for it, all W-bodies have endured significant discounting. Pontiac itself has a dealer body almost the size of Chrysler; you cannot deny the significance of this .....

3-series sells more than all of them. G35 sells more than A4....LS sells as much as X-type

5-series, E-class, STS, GS, M grossly outsell RL, individually

one final thing....the issue of modern progressive FWD/AWD platform is already being settled with EP II which will grow in length to accomodate large FWD sedans that will finally be true competitors to the biggest sellers, in exterior/interior dimmensions and in execution and design. Why design another FWD platform above this? According to you, GM doesn't have the luxury of choice, so just base as many cars off of EP II and take care of RWD cars with another platform. It's going to happen whether you want it to or not.

[razoredge]

one final thing....the issue of modern progressive FWD/AWD platform is already being settled with EP II which will grow in length to accomodate large FWD sedans that will finally be true competitors to the biggest sellers, in exterior/interior dimmensions and in execution and design. Why design another FWD platform above this? According to you, GM doesn't have the luxury of choice, so just base as many cars off of EP II and take care of RWD cars with another platform. It's going to happen whether you want it to or not.

whats the big issue here, seems like your mad at someone over something I cant find in previous posts ?

" Either you don't want to admit to it being a hit for the sake of losing an argument or you're ignorant. "

"whether you want it to or not."

"When GM produces a FWD that can match thier credentials call me. I originally said "real performance"..."

BFD, get over it, learn more about stuff like what the Cobalt is doing and Acuras, Hondas, VW, Saabs have been doing for decades. Not everyones personal agenda can be applied to the masses of adults seeking work & shopping transportation. This is not a big deal, both types of drivetrains will be available from GM as time goes by. Currently we just recieved the Kappa chassis which while not without flaws is another step along with the Cadillacs toward availability of more interesting options for GM buyers. This is no long an issue that need to be fought about.

[thegriffon]

The 300 and Charger are the best examples, although the 300 is supported by a very low base MSRP (the increase over 2004 is misleading because volume was restricted). Still the 300 sells far better then the Grand Prix, and Charger/Magnum sales are very healthy for the segment as well. Even if the majority of buyers in the subcompact, compact and midsize segments would prefer fwd, that still means plenty of volume if GM were to offer the only option (and they would be as far as sedans are concerned), and in sport compact coupes as in the D-segment the majority of buyers would prefer rwd. Nissan and Hyundai should not have that niche to themselves.

[regfootball]

It is to bad that this FWD RWD situation needs to be even a thought or an arguement. Both platforms should have always been maintained at some level, while persueing affordable, reliable AWD. Now we're behind.

yup, that's it in a nutshell

[regfootball]

Millions of people drive their 4WD SUVs in the snow, never bother moving the transfer case lever out of 2-HI and still manage to avoid stuffing themselves in a ditch.  Saying a decent RWD car would not sell because everyone would be sliding off the road is a false assumption.

100% wrong. sorry. reagrdless of whether they put their suv into 4wd or not,the fact is it sells because the 4wd is available.

plus, the part you're forgetting, more and more models are coming out with fulltime all wheel drive, which is part of the reason for the big crossover boom and increase in awd in luxury cars.

besides, i never said a decent rwd wouldn't sell.....i just said it won't sell in half the country. and the dealers just love all that dead inventory 4-5 months out of the year in the 50% of the nation.......

Edited January 22, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

No need to be sorry. That wasn't directed towards you; I was just throwing it out there.

I was just saying people seem to argue the reason why RWD cars would not sell well is because people would be whining about how poorly RWD vehicles would handle in the snow. But, many people also drive around in 4WD SUVs, in the snow states, in 2WD and do not complain of poor handling in the snow.

Hypothetically, if thousands of people are driving around 4WD SUVs, being operated in RWD, in snow states, and can manage to not put themselves in ditches; a RWD car could be created that would do the same.

I know AWD luxury cars are around, but what I would like to see is an affordable RWD car from GM that can also be had in AWD for those in snow states that want it. That would solve the "Not selling in half the country, dealer's having dead inventory 4-5 months of the year" problem while not having to have two different platforms for the AWD car and the RWD car.

Good points all around by the way.

well yes, if the car is RWD but is offered in AWd,then that solves the problem!!

[Ghost Dog]

The 300 and Charger are the best examples, although the 300 is supported by a very low base MSRP (the increase over 2004 is misleading because volume was restricted). Still the 300 sells far better then the Grand Prix, and Charger/Magnum sales are very healthy for the segment as well. Even if the majority of buyers in the subcompact, compact and midsize segments would prefer fwd, that still means plenty of volume if GM were to offer the only option (and they would be as far as sedans are concerned), and in sport compact coupes as in the D-segment the majority of buyers would prefer rwd. Nissan and Hyundai should not have that niche to themselves.

If the Majority of the D segment prefer RWD? Why Do the Camry and Accord sell so well? The North American D-Segment is Dominated by them. And Camry/Accord sales are'nt incentive discount driven.

[thegriffon]

A. Camry and Accord are E-segment

B. I was refering to coupes such as the Mustang and G35, not sedans

[turbo200]

Yeah, that was my take on what they looking for and thinking about.  Makes you wonder what they are noodling about over there then.  A full-line Kappa brand for Pontiac would be nice.

Ah-ha, this is essentially what I called for, along with some bigger RWD companions to effectively make Pontiac the real el cheapo American BMW. Combine great handling platforms already in existance and in use with great powertrains already in existance and in use with differentiated exterior/interiors with great style, and presto changeo Pontiac is all of a sudden the real sports cars of the mid-class set, and is relevant yet again. I understand I am doing quite a bit of wishful thinking, though, since the thought is Pontiac is not all that worthwile. With the rationalization of platforms already in existance for my plan, [G4 off Kappa, G6 off Camaro platform/wheelbase, G8 off Zeta/long wheelbase] I don't see this as being an extreme investment for GM. And it would be a wonderful opportunity to revive a storied brand. [bV, I'm really only calling them G4, G6, G8 for our purposes here, they can be called something better]

[ocnblu]

Kappa definitely needs to be expanded upon, at least for Pontiac and Chevrolet. Pontiac definitely needs to be a RWD car company, with AWD available for pussies. That's right, I said it.

Aveo should be the only all-FWD car available. The ship has sailed, people. FWD has been slammed in our faces for 25 years... it is a failed experiment. The chassis cannot be made to feel as good to drive as a RWD chassis.... SORRY.

You will never see a Citation, Cavalier, Celebrity, Corsica, Beretta, Lumina, FWD Monte Carlo, FWD Impala or Malibu at a classic car show because, bottom line... they are just not loved to anywhere near the same extent their RWD counterparts are. They are throwaway cars, plain and simple.

Can you imagine the sensation a RWD Cobalt SS/SC would cause? A RWD G6 GTP with the very same engines available on the current car? Lesser models would be pulled ahead with the higher-profile "performance" versions to enhance the whole line.

Enthusiasts can lead the way back to RWD, all others would be brought ahead with us. People don't know what they're missing.

Any restriction on LX sales could be attributed to a lagging reputation for Chrysler quality (which, at this point is over, from long term test results in all the car mags), or styling, which is subjective. GM has a much better quality reputation, plus a much larger, dormant loyalty base. A GM RWD counterpart to Chrysler's LX, plus smaller RWD offerings, would work to bring GM out of her malaise and back into the spotlight in a hurry.

Edited January 22, 2006 by ocnblu

[razoredge]

If the Majority of the D segment prefer RWD? Why Do the  Camry and Accord sell so well? The North American D-Segment is Dominated by them. And Camry/Accord sales are'nt incentive discount driven.

Come on now......you know that Camry/Honda/Acura/VW arguement only applys when its a necessary trump card...... which it clearly is not in this quandary

Anyone have the Cadillac sales figures for 1996 ?

Then the figures for last year.......2005 ?

not that I mind FWD & RWD offereings..but the folklore is getting a bit deep

[Sixty8panther]

"fun-to-drive front-drive"

That sounds even cornier and more lathered with Bull$h! than most Toyota ads from the 1980s!

"Oh what a feeling!"

Stop makign up excuses and doing B.S. surveys GM. Money talks and bull$h! walks! CHrsler and Ford has already proven RWD cars sell like hotcakes. Oner of the biggest driving forces of RWD comming back might just be the growing enthusiasm for Drifting, where FWD is more worthless than a fork when you're trying to eat Tomato Soup.

Edited January 22, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Sixty8panther]

with AWD available for pussies.  That's right, I said it.

Give this kid a blue ribbon or something. F*** Yeah, tell it like it is buddy! B)

[razoredge]

Surely ya'll dont want me throwin "pussy" around everytime it could be applied......do ya ? I mean, Id get tired of it meself

[Sixty8panther]

you have a point Razor.

[thegriffon]

"The Corolla has front-wheel drive, for better traction and surer handling…"

This must be why they kept the contemporary coupe versions (2- and 3-door) on the older, smaller rwd platform of the previous Corolla/Sprinter; why those last rwd coupes are still cult classics used in drifting 20 years later; and why they eventually gave up selling compact fwd coupes. The Europeans en-masse have decided that "a fwd coupe is just for posers, so let's do it right and chop the top off."

Edited January 22, 2006 by thegriffon

[regfootball]

Kappa definitely needs to be expanded upon, at least for Pontiac and Chevrolet.  Pontiac definitely needs to be a RWD car company, with AWD available for pussies.  That's right, I said it.

Aveo should be the only all-FWD car available.  The ship has sailed, people.  FWD has been slammed in our faces for 25 years... it is a failed experiment.  The chassis cannot be made to feel as good to drive as a RWD chassis.... SORRY.

You will never see a Citation, Cavalier, Celebrity, Corsica, Beretta, Lumina, FWD Monte Carlo, FWD Impala or Malibu at a classic car show because, bottom line... they are just not loved to anywhere near the same extent their RWD counterparts are.  They are throwaway cars, plain and simple.

Can you imagine the sensation a RWD Cobalt SS/SC would cause?  A RWD G6 GTP with the very same engines available on the current car?  Lesser models would be pulled ahead with the higher-profile "performance" versions to enhance the whole line.

Enthusiasts can lead the way back to RWD, all others would be brought ahead with us.  People don't know what they're missing.

Any restriction on LX sales could be attributed to a lagging reputation for Chrysler quality (which, at this point is over, from long term test results in all the car mags), or styling, which is subjective.  GM has a much better quality reputation, plus a much larger, dormant loyalty base.  A GM RWD counterpart to Chrysler's LX, plus smaller RWD offerings, would work to bring GM out of her malaise and back into the spotlight in a hurry.

oh yeah, that will halt toyota from selling 800,000 FWD camry's and corollas each year. and then we can add the accords, civics, altimas..........

plain and simple, RWD only is a market liability for volume cars. RWD is fine for sports cars but their marketability is enhanced with available AWD option. FWD is the preference for much of the market because is its efficiency, predictability, cost.

and i hardly think anyone wanting added traction and security for driving around in sloppy weather makes them a p\/ssy, or if it does, do smoky burnouts in a RWD car make one a juvenile? I would think so. I wish i had a firearm or rocket launcher to blow out some tires or better yet take out a gas tank for each time some putz decided to do a burnout by a house or school, or drive around with half a muffler being obnoxious and loud. That sort of thing is a complete and utter waste of time. The extent of which it shows one's skills is that they can push an accelrator pedal to the floor.

RWD for handling benefits is fine.

GM does deserve to offer some RWD car lines. But to think it would fix the company's f*cked mess its in, ha.......NOT.

Edited January 22, 2006 by regfootball

[knightfan26917]

You will never see a Citation, Cavalier, Celebrity, Corsica, Beretta, Lumina, FWD Monte Carlo, FWD Impala or Malibu at a classic car show because, bottom line... they are just not loved to anywhere near the same extent their RWD counterparts are.  They are throwaway cars, plain and simple.

Hmmm...while I agree with you for the most part, the FWD monte carlos _are_ showing up at car shows ... some of them heavily modified at that. Take a gander at some of the cars on a couple of the newer generation mc websites ... and you might see that they are loved by their owners, perhaps just as much as the owners of the RWD Monte Carlos.....

*shrugs*

[Sixty8panther]

KF:

I think Ocnblu was saying like 20 years from now they will not be classics or cult cars like Camaros, Charger R/Ts & BMWs. I agree wiht the premissse of waht he's saying but just this weekind saw a Tercel at a carshow wiht a spray-can paint job. NO joke! Thios proves any POS wiht three or four wheels will at mose point be driven to a car show and displayed by some empty headed clown.

There are a few exceptions. '66 Toro, '94 STS, 1980s VW GTi, '95 Riviera, '67 Eldorado, some Alfa Romeos perhaps.... FWD is forgivable sometimes.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Sixty8panther

[Cory Wolfe]

FWD Grand Ams and Grand Prixs have... you guessed it, loyal followings. So.. smack my ass and call me Grandma. You can't change it or manipulate it no matter what you say. Dirty little haters.