Detroit 2010: Cadillac XTS Platinum Concept

[Drew Dowdell]

Hey, lookithur what I found in the recently necromanced thread:

Said beautifully.

And this:

(And this dude too.)

Who buy's LSes, S-classes, and 7-series again? Usually people over 65 and rap stars.

[Lamar]

Who buy's LSes, S-classes, and 7-series again? Usually people over 65 and rap stars.

Funny... I've seen none of those types of people driving an LS, S-Class, or 7 Series recently.

And as far as why the drivetrain layout matters... it affects what engine you can fit under the hood (think: more cylinders). I know, I know, the powerplant in the concept can make 350 HP, yeah... but GM has often gotten in trouble for trying to tell the buyers what they need instead of giving them what they want.

Hybrid or not, they're not gonna be successful trying to convince potential buyers that their 350 HP is better than, say, Lexus' 380, BMW's 400, Mercedes' 381, or Audi's 350 or 360... and certainly not while mated to a CVT.

[Robert Hall]

Who buy's LSes, S-classes, and 7-series again? Usually people over 65 and rap stars.

Looks more like a DTS driver. What's the median DTS owner age? 70?

[SAmadei]

but GM has often gotten in trouble for trying to tell the buyers what they need instead of giving them what they want.

+1

[Drew Dowdell]

Funny... I've seen none of those types of people driving an LS, S-Class, or 7 Series recently.

And as far as why the drivetrain layout matters... it affects what engine you can fit under the hood (think: more cylinders). I know, I know, the powerplant in the concept can make 350 HP, yeah... but GM has often gotten in trouble for trying to tell the buyers what they need instead of giving them what they want.

Hybrid or not, they're not gonna be successful trying to convince potential buyers that their 350 HP is better than, say, Lexus' 380, BMW's 400, Mercedes' 381, or Audi's 350 or 360... and certainly not while mated to a CVT.

4-fix ratios and 2 E-CVTs

[Lamar]

Is that more akin to the transmission in the Malibu or Tahoe hybrid? (just so I know)

[Justin Bimmer]

People who own a DTS are not going to want to go to a Buick. There is a reason why people bought the DTS over the Buick that were identical in the first place. . . One is a Cadillac. I know this may be a tough mindset for people to understand, but you can't piss off customers that you have already just to try and get new customers. People who own a Cadillac want another Cadillac to replace it with.

[Drew Dowdell]

Is that more akin to the transmission in the Malibu or Tahoe hybrid? (just so I know)

Tahoe.

Actually, it's probably from the still born Saturn Vue hybrid.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'm starting to agree with Balthazar that had Cadillac called this a "new, exclusive to Cadillac, platform" and "uses an innovative new AWD Hybrid powertrain that can route the majority of torque to the rear wheels" and "due to production line flexibility can be built along side the Regal", we wouldn't be having this fight.

Except for the fact that the AWD system is not new, since it was already used for Saab, and that the platform isn't exclusive to Cadillac since Buick uses it too. And I would still complain about it even if both of those were true.

[Intrepidation]

People who own a DTS are not going to want to go to a Buick. There is a reason why people bought the DTS over the Buick that were identical in the first place. . . One is a Cadillac. I know this may be a tough mindset for people to understand, but you can't piss off customers that you have already just to try and get new customers. People who own a Cadillac want another Cadillac to replace it with.

Only problem is that this clientele will be either dead or have their license revoked before too long.

[CaddyXLR-V]

And why does everyone feel the need to bring up the A8. A sedan that sold 105 units in Dec 09, 1463 for the entire year, and that includes the S8, and A8L. We never bring up the A8, because it is invisible in the market. The 7 series sells 1200 a month, and had 7,159 sales through Oct 09. If you let the money vote, it is going to BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes, which all happen to be on RWD platforms.

[Drew Dowdell]

And I would still complain about it even if both of those were true.

Ah... now we get to the truth.....

[Drew Dowdell]

If you let the money vote, it is going to BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes, which all happen to be on RWD platforms.

Correlation is not causation.

[Justin Bimmer]

Only problem is that this clientele will be either dead or have their license revoked before too long.

Do you know something that I don't? Am I going to die or have my license revoked? LOL!

[balthazar]

CaddyXLR-V ~ >>"And why does everyone feel the need to bring up the A8. A sedan that sold..."<<

The reason the A8 is repeatedly brought up here, is that in too-numerous-to-count previous Cadillac threads, audi is frequently in the half-handful of competitors who 'show Cadillac how it's done'. Here is a Cadillac which has jettisoned a 275 HP V8, FWD, & 4-spd auto for a 350 HP hybrid V6, AWD, & 6-spd trans, much more in line with that handful when equipped that way.

Sales are besides the point and certainly are not primairily predicated on powertrain layout. Look at the BMW 6-series for proof there (150 units/mnth).

I for one am only searching for consistancy. If the A8 quattro is accepted as a well-performing platform being FWD-based AWD, then we should all be open to what a FWD-based AWD MRS XTS can achieve- and not bash it dead before it rolls a foot under independant evaluation.

[Drew Dowdell]

I too am concerned with the willingness to bash a vehicle that maybe 4 of us have seen in person.

[CaddyXLR-V]

CaddyXLR-V ~ >>"And why does everyone feel the need to bring up the A8. A sedan that sold..."<<

The reason the A8 is repeatedly brought up here, is that in too-numerous-to-count previous Cadillac threads, audi is frequently in the half-handful of competitors who 'show Cadillac how it's done'. Here is a Cadillac which has jettisoned a 275 HP V8, FWD, & 4-spd auto for a 350 HP hybrid V6, AWD, & 6-spd trans, much more in line with that handful when equipped that way.

Sales are besides the point and certainly are not primairily predicated on powertrain layout. Look at the BMW 6-series for proof there (150 units/mnth).

I for one am only searching for consistancy. If the A8 quattro is accepted as a well-performing platform being FWD-based AWD, then we should all be open to what a FWD-based AWD MRS XTS can achieve- and not bash it dead before it rolls a foot under independant evaluation.

I'd rather bash it dead. But I also wouldn't buy an A8 either. If I was getting a larger luxury car it would be a 5 or 7 series. Audi hasn't been able to tap into even 5% of the market, despite having an entry in the market for years. Why are we supposed to praise Cadillac for matching the bottom of the class? Maybe you would all support the CTS moving to a FWD/AWD platform too?

[CaddyXLR-V]

I too am concerned with the willingness to bash a vehicle that maybe 4 of us have seen in person.

You weren't concerned when everyone bashed Scion before anyone saw them in person though. Or any Lexus, or any Acura. GM doesn't get any more free passes, or benefit of the doubt from some of us anymore.

[balthazar]

Why is this so hard to grapple with ??

The CTS is not even remotely the same sort of vehicle the XTS is. DIfferent segment/demo completely.

The CTS has nothing to do with the discussion, and no one wants it to go to FWD/AWD.

The mini is a BMW, that's FWD, that's supposedly fun to drive to the point there's no call for it to go to RWD, maybe the 1-series should move to the same platform. Same sentiment.

>>"Audi hasn't been able to tap into even 5% of the market"<<

Again- sales are immaterial. Or is the SRX getting all sorts of spec-based allocades since it's sales are so good ??

'XLR-V', you are free to hate the XTS concept and bash it dead based on pics & intitial specs.

But -based on specs-, I'd like to see even an occasional bash (from anyone) on the 295-HP hybrid (is AWD available too?) s-class, for bring the same (lesser HP) specs to the segment. That's be the degree of consistancy that would shut me up.

[The O.C.]

Fine...it will be competitive w/ the MKS and RL. Not competitive w/ BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus.

.....and the Haldex AWD system is not anywhere as advanced as, say, Audi's torque sensing differential combined with the electronic rear differential.....which can split torque front to rear, and also side to side at the rear wheels...

[Drew Dowdell]

I'd rather bash it dead. But I also wouldn't buy an A8 either. If I was getting a larger luxury car it would be a 5 or 7 series. Audi hasn't been able to tap into even 5% of the market, despite having an entry in the market for years. Why are we supposed to praise Cadillac for matching the bottom of the class? Maybe you would all support the CTS moving to a FWD/AWD platform too?

Wouldn't the bottom of this class be the Infiniti Q-ship or the VW Phaeton? Just askin....

I don't care what kind of platform any car rides on as long as it delivers the results I want.

[Drew Dowdell]

You weren't concerned when everyone bashed Scion before anyone saw them in person though. Or any Lexus, or any Acura. GM doesn't get any more free passes, or benefit of the doubt from some of us anymore.

Well, I actually like the looks of the Scion TC, but that doesn't change the fact that what Toyota did by creating a whole separate-but-not-really brand was dumb. Same as GM was dumb for building GEO and Saturn.

The difference is that I've seen the XTS in person and none of the pictures, not even my own, do it justice. I'm not the only person at NAIAS who has said this. There are some certified GM haters out there that like the XTS once they see it in person.

I wasn't too concerned about people bashing the CR-Z because I've seen it in person and it's even worse than in pictures. At this point, people are being nice relative to what their reaction will be when they first see one in person.

[The O.C.]

.....and the Haldex AWD system is not anywhere as advanced as, say, Audi's torque sensing differential combined with the electronic rear differential.....which can split torque front to rear, and also side to side at the rear wheels...

What everyone is also forgetting in this damn Audi-vs-AWD XTS debate is that not all all-wheel-drive systems are the same. Audi's is significantly (ok maybe too strong a word....) more advanced than the Haldex viscous coupling AWD system.....and it doesn't seem feasible that GM has expended the capital to develop a significantly new-and-improved AWD system over the Haldex.....so my assumption is the XTS AWD system will be the very same that GM has been using.

Also, even though Audis are FWD-based.....they seem to get a "pass" in the marketplace and in public perception because almost 30 years ago, they developed "Quattro" and have a long line of rally and racing victories directly attributed to that Quattro system. It is perceived as, and been developed to, enhance the handling and driving experience of Audis....not just provide a bad-weather-traction benefit. Audi is widely recognized because of its Quattro system.

In this regard.....the FWD-based Quattro system seems to be a natural to the Audi product......whereas the idea of an "AWD" XTS is a stop-gap to try to sway public perception away from a front-wheel-drive Cadillac flagship sedan.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, I actually like the looks of the Scion TC, but that doesn't change the fact that what Toyota did by creating a whole separate-but-not-really brand was dumb. Same as GM was dumb for building GEO and Saturn.

The difference is that I've seen the XTS in person and none of the pictures, not even my own, do it justice. I'm not the only person at NAIAS who has said this. There are some certified GM haters out there that like the XTS once they see it in person.

I wasn't too concerned about people bashing the CR-Z because I've seen it in person and it's even worse than in pictures. At this point, people are being nice relative to what their reaction will be when they first see one in person.

For me, it doesn't matter what the XTS looks like. I wouldn't like it or consider it based on the platform alone, so seeing it in person won't change my mind. Put it on Zeta and I would consider it. I'd rather have the STS, even if the XTS ends up looking twice as good as it.

Also, both the Q and the Phaeton are out of production in the US. I'd rather have the M45 anyway.

Edited January 19, 2010 by CaddyXLR-V

[Drew Dowdell]

.....and the Haldex AWD system is not anywhere as advanced as, say, Audi's torque sensing differential combined with the electronic rear differential.....which can split torque front to rear, and also side to side at the rear wheels...

The Haldex can split torque front to rear and side to side.

The XWD system can transmit 100 percent of available torque to either the front or rear wheels. However, for those conditions to occur one end of the vehicle would have to lose all traction, like driving on ice for instance. During a standing start the rear wheels are put to use, without the need for any slip to occur. Then under straight-line cruising conditions, to conserve fuel and driveline wear, the torque split to the rear wheels is reduced to a level between 5 and 10 percent. Also up to 85 percent of torque can be transferred by the eLSD between to any single rear wheel if necessary. The system can adjust torque splits based on calculated conditions, such as those that indicate an aggressive lane change manoeuvre, to effectively reduce oversteer or understeer without any wheel slip occurring.

I'd rather have the M45 anyway.

Now that's just uncalled for.

[The O.C.]

The Haldex can split torque front to rear and side to side.

Now that's just uncalled for.

Ok....but the Haldex is still a viscous-coupling system compared to Quattro's torque-sensing differential....there is a difference in the technologies and what their intended purpose is.

Ironically, the A3 is the only "Quattro" to use a viscous-coupling system. (And technically speaking, is not a "Quattro" system even though they brand it as such.) All other Audis (including the SUVs) use the torque sensing differential system.

[Drew Dowdell]

Ok....but the Haldex is still a viscous-coupling system compared to Quattro's torque-sensing differential....there is a difference in the technologies and what their intended purpose is.

Ironically, the A3 is the only "Quattro" to use a viscous-coupling system. (And technically speaking, is not a "Quattro" system even though they brand it as such.) All other Audis (including the SUVs) use the torque sensing differential system.

Please read the whole link.

The LSD used by Haldex 4.0 is also not the mechanical limited-slip differential of old. They swapped the old system LSD for an electronic unit. The eLSD works in much the same way as the LSC, a feeder pump and pressure relief valve are used to control hydraulic pressure on the differential clutch pack. This allows for complete control of the rear differential lock-up without the need to wait for wheel slippage to occur. The system has its own control unit contained in the LSC. This control unit communicates between the vehicle systems to get sensor input for data such as wheel speed, rpms, throttle position, steering wheel input, etc. It also works with anti-lock brake and traction control systems.

[Lamar]

And why does everyone feel the need to bring up the A8. A sedan that sold 105 units in Dec 09, 1463 for the entire year, and that includes the S8, and A8L. We never bring up the A8, because it is invisible in the market. The 7 series sells 1200 a month, and had 7,159 sales through Oct 09. If you let the money vote, it is going to BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes, which all happen to be on RWD platforms.

A8 is a lame duck since all the engines higher than the V8 are gone and the new one is coming on sale later this year.

[Camino LS6]

Let me distill my objections to the car down to basics:

- Its EPII underpinnings trash the proportions

- It was touted as a flagship, but clearly isn't.

- It was touted as being inspired by the Sixteen, to which it bears no resemblence.

- The footwell intrusion is inexcusable, especially in a car of this size.

- It was intended to replace not one, but two, exisitng cars - it replaces one.

- It does nothing to move the brand forward beyond its current template.

Still rates a 5 out of 10 in my book.

Just thought I'd repeat myself by quoting (easier than typing all that again).

I'd like to add one though:

- It treads on Buick's turf.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Camino LS6

[balthazar]

W/ respect to your opinion, I'd like to give mine~

>>"- Its EPII underpinnings trash the proportions"<<

From the pics, I like the proportions in all views. Much fresher than the others (don't forget, I own the ultimate snub-nose: a COE). The 'full-envelope' sedan is the only stylistic road not yet taken in car design. What visibility is like over that cowl, I can't begin to guess tho.

>>"It was touted as a flagship, but clearly isn't."<<

Yet other sources pegged it as a 'replacement for the DTS', and by configuration, it seems a lot closer to being that than an STS replacement.

>>"It was touted as being inspired by the Sixteen, to which it bears no resemblence."<<

Sixteen in some respects is dated & outside Cadillac's design language. Would feed those who think 'Cadillac has no direction' if it were the Sixteen (or really close).

>>"The footwell intrusion is inexcusable, especially in a car of this size."<<

From the pic, this looks terrible and unbelievable. I have to stretch my legs out; if what I see is accurate, it would be a dealbreaker for me (no worries: I ain't in the segment).

>>"It was intended to replace not one, but two, exisitng cars - it replaces one."<<

The DTS. HAS TO BE the DTS, esp since the bulk of the opposition at large is over the platform.

>>"It does nothing to move the brand forward beyond its current template."<<

>>"It treads on Buick's turf."<<

If the only primary characteristic of the car is 'FWD sedan', I would agree; like an MCE refresh on the current DTS. But this isn't merely that, and IMO the interior/features solidly trump the fact that it's FWD-based AWD. And the supposed pricing takes it clearly out of Buick's range ($50-60K).

>>"Still rates a 5 out of 10 in my book."<<

I cannot grade it fairly on only the pics; and I am really intriqued by the reports from those that have seen it.

If pressed: 7/10. I am impressed by the dynamicism of it in & out, but much can only be realized in person.

[Camino LS6]

We'll have to agree to disagree, Balthazar.

I find the car to be thoroughly disappointing.

[Blake Noble]

I find the car to be thoroughly disappointing.

As do at least 1/2 of the members posting in this thread, if not more.

So far the only vocal supporters of the XTS are Olds, balthazar, JB, Capt. F-Turbo, and DF to some extent. There isn't much love to go around from everyone else. This car is a monumental let down to most people here.

[FAPTurbo]

As do at least 1/2 of the members posting in this thread, if not more.

So far the only vocal supporters of the XTS are Olds, balthazar, JB, Capt. F-Turbo, and DF to some extent. There isn't much love to go around from everyone else. This car is a monumental let down to most people here.

To be fair, many people here are about performance, and handling because this place is still primarily and enthusiast website. However, much of the population have a different agenda when it comes to their vehicle purchases, and like cars packed with tech, and put 'driving dynamics' down lower on their list.

[balthazar]

We can agree on a few points, Camino- it's not a real Cadillac flagship, and it's not what I would have wanted it to be.

But for what/where it is in the lineup, I think it exceeded a LOT of people's expectations, and it's definately better (as a DTS replacement) that I imagined.

ATS, CTS, XTS, Flagship makes the most sense by far to me, so I'm willing to wait & see if/when/what Cadillac may come up with down the road for that 4th spot.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"To be fair, many people here are about performance, and handling because this place is still primarily and enthusiast website. However, much of the population have a different agenda when it comes to their vehicle purchases, and like cars packed with tech, and put 'driving dynamics' down lower on their list."<<

True, especially in this segment... and I think that keeps getting lost in the judgement.

Over on another board the reaction was slanted FAR more positively than here after the reveal than all the talk (a LOT of which was fairly brutal) was before NAIAS.

Edited January 20, 2010 by balthazar

[Intrepidation]

I'm still not crazy about it, I certainly don't like enough to want one over a CTS. I'm willing to give it a chance though. Worst comes to worse it flops and we can make Cimarron and XTS jokes for the next 20 years.

With that said I could do better.

[Drew Dowdell]

I have no problems with the XTS as is, but I'd love to see this just be a design study that ultimately ends up on Zeta so a whole bunch of you can drink a nice steaming cup of STFU and still not buy it.

I mean really, this much vitriol for a car that 99.9% of you couldn't afford new anyway.

[Satty]

I have no problems with the XTS as is, but I'd love to see this just be a design study that ultimately ends up on Zeta so a whole bunch of you can drink a nice steaming cup of STFU and still not buy it.

I mean really, this much vitriol for a car that 99.9% of you couldn't afford new anyway.

Truth, this post has it.

[Blake Noble]

To be fair, many people here are about performance, and handling because this place is still primarily and enthusiast website. However, much of the population have a different agenda when it comes to their vehicle purchases, and like cars packed with tech, and put 'driving dynamics' down lower on their list.

To be honest, I don't anyone here really knows what the average car buyer really wants outside of something that will haul their fat ass to McDonalds without them having to putting up with trivial things such as basic maintenance after the 10,000,000,000 mile warranty wears off.

I will say and do know this, though, a car that can appeal to all people, no matter if it's front or rear drive, V6 or V8, is a truly successful car. The XTS isn't. It will surely appeal mostly to the certain buyers mentioned in this thread.

[FAPTurbo]

I will say and do know this, though, a car that can appeal to all people, no matter if it's front or rear drive, V6 or V8, is a truly successful car. The XTS isn't. It will surely appeal mostly to the certain buyers mentioned in this thread.

You know that it's successful based upon what? Sales figures?

[Lamar]

I have no problems with the XTS as is, but I'd love to see this just be a design study that ultimately ends up on Zeta so a whole bunch of you can drink a nice steaming cup of STFU and still not buy it.

I mean really, this much vitriol for a car that 99.9% of you couldn't afford new anyway.

Hey, I for one don't plan on being a broke part-time instructor and grad student ALL my life. I've been looking for something to aspire to by the time I get where I'm going within the next ten years.

For the record, I like the design but hate the canvas. If it does end up on Zeta and get that whole LaCrosse-in-a-tuxedo thing worked out, I will seriously consider it.

[Justin Bimmer]

To be honest, I don't anyone here really knows what the average car buyer really wants outside of something that will haul their fat ass to McDonalds without them having to putting up with trivial things such as basic maintenance after the 10,000,000,000 mile warranty wears off.

I will say and do know this, though, a car that can appeal to all people, no matter if it's front or rear drive, V6 or V8, is a truly successful car. The XTS isn't. It will surely appeal mostly to the certain buyers mentioned in this thread.

So since a Toyota Camary appeals to all people as it is the best selling car so it is the best car on earth right?

The purpose of Cadillac is not to appeal to all people. It is to appeal to people who have $40,000 plus dollars to spend on a car that is cutting edge on technology and styling and comfort. Styling is subjective as is handling, comfort, and performance.

When this car comes out, I think you will see it do really well in the Midwest where AWD cars are popular because of winter weather. I think this car will do well on the west coast to because of the powertrain and the considerable savings on gas it will offer over its counterparts.

[Blake Noble]

You know that it's successful based upon what? Sales figures?

You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about success based on sales figures, of course, I was talking about success based on appeal. The new Camaro is a fine example of a car that appeals to quite a lot of people, regardless of what powertrain and drivetrain layout a particular individual prefers. Those are two entirely different things.

[Blake Noble]

So since a Toyota Camary appeals to all people as it is the best selling car so it is the best car on earth right?

You and I both know what you just said is a fallacy because you and I both know the Camry does not appeal to all people.

But, fine. Let's let the production car be the final say. I'm completely expecting something worse to show up at next year's NAIAS. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

Edited January 20, 2010 by whiteknight

[Satty]

You and I both know what you just said is a fallacy because you and I both know the Camry does not appeal to all people.

The Camaro (your example above) doesn't appeal to all people.

[Drew Dowdell]

It took the Camaro a week of me driving it before it would even make it to my "possibly if I won the lottery" list.

[Intrepidation]

Remember it could always be worse, it could be FWD based and designed by Honda.

[FAPTurbo]

You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about success based on sales figures, of course, I was talking about success based on appeal. The new Camaro is a fine example of a car that appeals to quite a lot of people, regardless of what powertrain and drivetrain layout a particular individual prefers. Those are two entirely different things.

Yeah but your guess of what 'appeals' is only as good as mine. I'm no professional marketer. However, I do know that 'tech' is the big thing these days, with people demanding all sorts of goodies from their cars, from big luxo-sedans, right down to compacts. Really, I guess it's down to 'looks' but then this is a Cadillac; 'Arts & Science' was designed to be polarizing, and not ape BMW/Mercedes like everyone else has.

[Blake Noble]

Like I said earlier, the production car will be the final say here and I have sneaking suspicion that it will only be worse (i.e. this XTS concept is pretty much what we'll see when a buyer ponies up for every last option). If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it.

I just wanted to see an XTS that I knew would be an instant success for Cadillac. I don't think I see that here at all, but whatever. What the hell difference does my opinion make, right?

[Drew Dowdell]

Like I said earlier, the production car will be the final say here and I have sneaking suspicion that it will only be worse (i.e. this XTS concept is pretty much what we'll see when a buyer ponies up for every last option). If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it.

I just wanted to see an XTS that I knew would be an instant success for Cadillac. I don't think I see that here at all, but whatever. What the hell difference does my opinion make, right?

Just remember my age old quote "GM could produce a fully working model of Christ himself and people would still complain about the water to wine function only dispensing Merlot"

Just look at the CTS-V. It smacks around the M5 in every measurable way. It took a 20 year old driving a manual M3 against a 78 year old in an automatic CTS-V to only lose by a very small margin, it has an interior that anyone could be proud of..... and yet we still have people whining about pushrods, rear sunshades and the lack of 103 way power seats and bringing up the Cimarron in the very first sentence of reviews.

When us "Cadillac Defenders" see people attacking what looks to be a very capable Cadillac for it's target audience, I hope you'll understand why we see the need to push back with... you know... facts and stuff. If this really were a warmed over G-body DTS refresh, and looked the part, I'd be releasing the dogs right there with you. But it's not....

[regfootball]

Remember it could always be worse, it could be FWD based and designed by Honda.

i could slice up some tasty tomatoes or some lunch meat on that grille