Detroit 2010: Cadillac XTS Platinum Concept

[hyperv6]

I think that this really is a good design but I think we all had expected a smaller SIXTEEN and feel a little let down.

From what they say it looks better in person and for sure it is as good as the present CTS or the 90's STS.

As for the other issues. Cadillac needs to build on the CTS. Jumping up to a $120,000+ sedan is not going to get them anywhere right now. The market for the top dollar cars per the Wall st Journel is down and many people are replacing the car with lower priced models. This means the market is coming to Cadillac. Even people of means are now value shopping even in the Luxury class.

As for the engine Cylinder count any more will become more a psycological deal. BMW and most of the other either have or will start cutting cylinders in many cars. As long as the HP is up and performance is there they should do well. We have yet to see what all they can do with the 3.6 yet.

AWD will be fine here as long as handling is up to par with the RWD cars.

Before anyone condems or approves this car we all should look it over and see just what all GM has planned for it first. Nothing like letting the real facts get in the way before we pass judgment.

The mear mention of AMC in a Cadillac thread

I suspect this car is only a building block to Cadillac's future. You need to get on base before you can score. Too often the guys going for the fence walk back to the dug out on strike three. Cadillac can not afford any stikes and I assume they will play this game a little conservitive to win in the long run not in the first 2 years.

The bottom line is this I suspect car will move up in time and with the next model. You have to walk before you can run. It is hard to pry butts out of Benz and BMW with out proving youself in a good economy let alone a bad one.

[Intrepidation]

No one in their right mid expected the Sixteen, they were expecting something with more presence befitting a flagship. Plus with rumors that the production version will be less aggressive (how I don't know since it's not ultra aggressive to begin with) and narrower, it does not inspire confidence.

[turbo200]

I agree the Lexus LS is a beautiful sedan. I actually like it a lot that Toyota's best design cues show up on the lesser models, but they save the best for Lexus. Like the relation between the RX and the Venza which are both beautiful, and then some of those same design cues extended to the highlander first and then 4runner. Toyota uses very refined surfacing techniques....and this latest generation has added some of the best design in the industry...they've far surpassed nissan and honda, and are an alternative to the much more sober germans. toyota design language is uniform, it is distinct, original, and not a copy of anyone else. yes the ls uses the template of the german big sedans and always has, and throughout the '80's and '90's the japanese took inspiration from the simple straightforward lines and elegant presentations of the germans.....so what. gm's done it now with malibu, impala is basically a cry out to last gen camry fans, lacrosse is a GS in drag, opel design language is a direct descendant of MB, and so on.....what matters is how you take the inspiration and make it your own.

design and image are the two biggest influences of luxury buying decisions. the LS sells on the backing of enduring appeal and handsome proportions, as well as its performance and more significantly lexus' history.

i think cadillac has a good starting point as far as legacy is concerned. they are very well known as luxury car makers to the point of instant acceptance or rejection, and this latest design theme has captivated attention, rightfully so. i think xts has a good chance of being a solid performing car. the thing that i would like to see GM accomplish here is not dumb this car down so much to the point where caddy is selling a full size car for 40k, including a discount because its content is not altogther desirable. GM has the opportunity to make a relatively outstanding luxury package that speaks for itself, they can sell it for 50k-60k, limit the options, and make AWD standard. the hybrid powertrain should also be standard, and considering this is Epsilon based, there should be no problem absorbing those costs. the options available should be related to comfort and convenience. the tone set for the basic model should still be one of a technological tour de force, if not you're competing with a BMW 5-series that is incredibly desirable on its own in design, legacy, and much much much better performance.

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree the Lexus LS is a beautiful sedan.

It's really difficult to take the rest of what you say seriously when you type that. The LS is beautiful? eh.. understated, restrained, handsome, and well bolted together maybe... but beautiful? That's a bit of a stretch.....

Beauty implies some distinction over others.

That said, I'm not implying that any others in this class are beautiful, XTS included.

[turbo200]

It's really difficult to take the rest of what you say seriously when you type that. The LS is beautiful? eh.. understated, restrained, handsome, and well bolted together maybe... but beautiful? That's a bit of a stretch.....

Beauty implies some distinction over others.

That said, I'm not implying that any others in this class are beautiful, XTS included.

well, i agree, so you take the words you used, understated [conservative], handsome, well bolted together..... in someone's eyes that's beautiful. to clarify, my use of the term was an overstatement, the ls is not my typical or car nuts' typical definition of beauty, which would be, to me, more like the XF or any alfa romeo or the tesla sedan....but nonetheless someone who values luxurious goods and timelessness, from that perspective, i can see thinking of the LS as beauty.

the broader point i wanted to make also related to toyota design. i think they have introduced some truly beautiful design language. that doesn't mean a car like the venza is perfect...but it sure has damn beautiful elements to its design, and i would rock it!

Edited January 16, 2010 by turbo200

[Drew Dowdell]

I've never had a problem with "FWD proportions" like those displayed on such notible front drivers as the Ford Crown Victoria, Ford Thunderbird, and final generation F-bodies. Then again, "RWD proportions" can be attractive too as the RWD Mini-Cooper, Scion TC, and Acura Vigor clearly show.

[Blake Noble]

It isn't just about styling proportions, it's also about superior driving dynamics.

[Satty]

Unless 20 year old guys start buying top-of-the-line sedans, driving dynamics will be secondary to luxury amenities.

[Drew Dowdell]

It isn't just about styling proportions, it's also about superior driving dynamics.

Most people in the target market for the LS... or even the 7-series... will never be in an opportunity to test the end of the XTS's abilities.

My 80 year old grandmother drives a 7-series... she's on her second one after 3 Buick Park Aves, an Oldsmobile 88 and the car that got me into cars in the first place, a 1978 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser diesel. Think she cares about driving dynamics? Her big objection is having to get the tires changed over twice a year, something she never needed on her Park Ave.

edit: It didn't occur to me until just now how bad it was that she went to the 7-series after the Park Ave. She did that after my grandfather died. My grandfather owned an OEM supplier the supplied Ford and GM.

[ZL-1]

Plus with rumors that the production version will be less aggressive (how I don't know since it's not ultra aggressive to begin with) and narrower, it does not inspire confidence.

I read that too and it is the bit of info regarding the production XTS that makes me fear that the production version will end up being a miss...

I don't think the XTS concept is a bad design at all, but your chop on Zeta wheelbase/proportions looks way better.

Edited January 17, 2010 by ZL-1

[balthazar]

if it has a longer rear, wouldn't that move the weight back, not forward? or is the hybrid being taken into account?

Of course, that's correct. My point was, the AWD XTS should be pretty damned near the exact weight distribution match to the 'excellent' A8.

-- -- -- -- --

Aren't the rumors of a 'narrower, less aggressive' XTS based from one of the auto rags, not GM ?? Guesswork at this point, no? I wouldn't sweat that yet.

Edited January 17, 2010 by balthazar

[smk4565]

When did acura have a 350-HP hybrid engine ??

Still waiting to learn why mercedes has a 295-HP hybrid in their s-class, too....

Acura never did, but in 2004 they had a 300 hp V6 which at the time was almost as good as many V8s, just like Cadillac's 350 hp is almost as good as the V8s. Acura failed, Cadillac probably will too, the market demands a V8 and rear drive. A front drive Cadillac is just as bad as GM making a front drive Camaro with a turbo V6 and claiming it to be a sports car.

Mercedes has a hybrid S-class for the ecomentalists, limo companies that sit in traffic and people that drive slow. The S-class has a 612 hp/738 lb-ft V12 option also. That is the difference, I can't choose a V12 XTS, I have to get a V6.

BMW has a 480 hp hybrid on sale now, Cadillac releasing a 350 hp hybrid 2 years from now seems rather inconsequential.

[smk4565]

As for the engine Cylinder count any more will become more a psycological deal. BMW and most of the other either have or will start cutting cylinders in many cars. As long as the HP is up and performance is there they should do well. We have yet to see what all they can do with the 3.6 yet.

AWD will be fine here as long as handling is up to par with the RWD cars.

BMW not only introduced a 6 liter, 12-cylinder car this year, but they put 2 turbos on it as well. So they aren't cutting any cylinders.

AWD (especially transverse engine mounted awd) can not handle as well as RWD. Why not make the Camaro and Corvette fwd/awd with a V6 only and see how they perform.

[Drew Dowdell]

because no one will be taking the XTS... or LS... or A8... or 7-Series...or S-Class... out for a spin on the Nurburgring after church.

[balthazar]

WallyWorld ~ >>"A front drive Cadillac is just as bad as GM making a front drive Camaro with a turbo V6 and claiming it to be a sports car."<<

Riiiiight, because Cadillac & mercedes sedans are driven like sports cars, so they need V8s & RWD ONLY. Uh-huh.

And this "sports car" also fails because it lacks a V8 & RWD only. Uh-huh.

>>"The S-class has a 612 hp/738 lb-ft V12 option also."<<

Wonder which one sells more.. and which one will sell more 5 years from now ?

>>"That is the difference, I can't choose a V12 XTS, I have to get a V6. "<<

So these people only buy by cylinder count? In other words, while you mention BMW's claimed HP, you continue to ignore that a Cadillac with 350 HP trumps a mercedes with only 295 HP and HERE focus on cylinder count instead of HP. Nice consistancy.

Edited January 17, 2010 by balthazar

[turbo200]

Riiiiight, because Cadillac & mercedes sedans are driven like sports cars, so they need V8s & RWD ONLY. Uh-huh.

And this "sports car" also fails because it lacks a V8 & RWD only. Uh-huh.

you're not being entirely factual here. this is a RWD-based AWD car. the engine configuration to the bias of the driveline being at the rear all in line with RWD characteristics.....why did you even try to make this comparison?

look, in general, luxury buyers spend a lot of time with their cars, just like regular buyers. so they are going to be able to tell the difference after driving RWD cars for years, that a FWD feels a lot less balanced, a lot more nose heavy, a lot less stable going through corners...etc etc. they'll recognize their bmws have better steering feel than the competition, the engines have more flexible characteristics...hell if you've ever driven an MB you'll know there is an altogether distinct MB engine feel baked into every car. it's pretty awesome..

how do you step down from something that is the best to something that is not. something that is widely recognized at performing the best at everything, like a bmw, or the new gen of MBs, in terms of ride quality and with bmw unparalleled handling capability....something like that is gonna impress even the most average drivers. after all, are humans adaptive creatures, or are they not?

now to underscore the point i am making. there is sheer balance and aggression of drive possible with rwd not inherently possible in all fwd...just compare the reviews the CTS chassis gets to something like the TL or volvos. with the CTS there has been nothing but ongoing and exemplary praise of the chassis, its ride quality, and its handling limits. there's nothing like a sophisticated RWD setup...and luxury buyers demand the best only...because they are mostly RWD mb and BMW buyers since they sell the most [along with lexus]

[turbo200]

Acura never did, but in 2004 they had a 300 hp V6 which at the time was almost as good as many V8s, just like Cadillac's 350 hp is almost as good as the V8s. Acura failed, Cadillac probably will too, the market demands a V8 and rear drive. A front drive Cadillac is just as bad as GM making a front drive Camaro with a turbo V6 and claiming it to be a sports car.

Mercedes has a hybrid S-class for the ecomentalists, limo companies that sit in traffic and people that drive slow. The S-class has a 612 hp/738 lb-ft V12 option also. That is the difference, I can't choose a V12 XTS, I have to get a V6.

BMW has a 480 hp hybrid on sale now, Cadillac releasing a 350 hp hybrid 2 years from now seems rather inconsequential.

though smk represents the voice of extreme end of the luxury buyer, he is no doubt right. luxury buyers simply demand more power and less compromise. yes, there are now more than ever eco-conscious buyers but there are nonetheless many uncompromising buyers left. should cadillac bother to go after those buyers is the larger question, and the answer is if they can refine the 6.2 nicely and fit it in, which at least for the first point it is yes, they need to make that v8 available. it's a nice thought to market this only as a hybrid car...but the truth is there will be a few thousand [every year] who would want that extra power. market this first and foremost as a hybrid performance sedan by Cadillac.

[balthazar]

>>"you're not being entirely factual here. this is a RWD-based AWD car."<<

Aware ... point was it was NOT only RWD, as the implication above demands for success.

This car is AWD and is competitive (laughable styling aside), no reason an AWD XTS cannot likewise be competitive, esp. in a less performance-demanding segment.

>>"how do you step down from something that is the best to something that is not."<<

Preferences change obviously- or the entire theory of 'getting a consumer in your entry-level car then having him trade up thru the line over time' is completely nullified. And if BMW has the "best" steering & handling, they would never lose a consumer to -say- mercedes ever ... I'm willing to bet this happens frequently.

No one car is the best at everything and driver's have different criteria. In the segment of S-class/ 7-series/ etc, ultimate handling & steering are not paramount to a significant portion of the buyer pool. Therefore, other factors & features rise closer to the top. Olds said his grandmother drives a 7-series after having a number of Park Avenues. Is her driving suddenly aggressive & canyon-carving ??

The harping on the XTS being FWD-based AWD is immaterial to the bulk of this demographic, no matter what the perception of 'BMW' in general is. But given a fresh, dynamic shape & holysh!t electronic interfaces, plus the hype of hybrid power, and you have real, unique reasons to pull a weary S/7 buyer out of that circle.

Will there be those that will demand a V-8 XTS ?? Yes, of course. Cadillac has had V8s longer than anyone else, since 1914, that's real heritage the others can't touch. And they should offer a V8, I agree. Still, I would strongly like to see how the XTS plays out and what upgrades Cadillac brings to it over a few model years... and I would be willing to meanwhile see it go against similar-power models of it's competition. The reports that BMW & MB are going 'down market' underhood are not wild theories with the realities of fuel prices, unemployment & shifting markets to contend with.

Someone from GM said they were now relatively flush with cash, and others have confirmed that some projects shelved because of the bankruptcy were back online. We can hope that Cadillac resumes development of a new generation V8 soon. On the other hand, we've all read numerous threads on how the 'V8 is dead' and 'why stick with a V8 when a V6 is just as powerful' ... and here we have a V6 with more power than Cadillac's previous N/A V8s AND mercedes' V6 ... and everyone is still b!tching.

[Drew Dowdell]

On the other hand, we've all read numerous threads on how the 'V8 is dead' and 'why stick with a V8 when a V6 is just as powerful' ... and here we have a V6 with more power than Cadillac's previous N/A V8s AND mercedes' V6 ... and everyone is still b!tching.

Truth!

[ocnblu]

Hehe, the V6 isn't that powerful alone, it needs the complication of electric motor assist to meet the 350 hp figure.

[Camino LS6]

Let me distill my objections to the car down to basics:

- Its EPII underpinnings trash the proportions

- It was touted as a flagship, but clearly isn't.

- It was touted as being inspired by the Sixteen, to which it bears no resemblence.

- The footwell intrusion is inexcusable, especially in a car of this size.

- It was intended to replace not one, but two, exisitng cars - it replaces one.

- It does nothing to move the brand forward beyond its current template.

Still rates a 5 out of 10 in my book.

[ocnblu]

I agree with you on all points, Camino.

[Camino LS6]

I would love to see whatever stillborn designs they worked on for a zeta Caddy.

I keep getting a nagging feeling that they have something stashed-away somewhere...

[ocnblu]

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyLznsUdXPQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyLznsUdXPQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyLznsUdXPQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>Zoiks, suddenly I feel so old-skool for panning this thing.

[Drew Dowdell]

Awesome vid!

[ZL-1]

Let me distill my objections to the car down to basics:

- Its EPII underpinnings trash the proportions

- It was touted as a flagship, but clearly isn't.

- It was touted as being inspired by the Sixteen, to which it bears no resemblence.

- The footwell intrusion is inexcusable, especially in a car of this size.

- It was intended to replace not one, but two, exisitng cars - it replaces one.

- It does nothing to move the brand forward beyond its current template.

that sums it up pretty well.

[Robert Hall]

IMHO, the styling could be greatly improved by an extra 4-6 inches of wheelbase ahead of the front doors..that would lengthen the nose and reduce the bad FWD proportions.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[regfootball]

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyLznsUdXPQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyLznsUdXPQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyLznsUdXPQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>Zoiks, suddenly I feel so old-skool for panning this thing.

yup. that vid did it for me too.

the length of the vehicle and cab forward styling and trunk shaping and greenhouse really stand out in that.

i still think the headlights and grille aand front in general needs to be amped up and made much more aggressive.

Edited January 17, 2010 by regfootball

[Blake Noble]

Here's something I don't think anyone has stopped to consider: if they sell this in Europe, how do well received you think it would be?

Europe didn't exactly warm to the 1997 - 2004 Seville, you know.

[Satty]

Here's something I don't think anyone has stopped to consider: if they sell this in Europe, how do well received you think it would be?

Europe didn't exactly warm to the 1997 - 2004 Seville, you know.

They haven't warmed to the CTS or STS either, so I dont think the XTS will make things worse.

[Blake Noble]

The CTS has gained some leverage in the market, though. I say the current-gen CTS and the upcoming ATS will do decently in Europe. I don't see them taking the market by storm, obviously, but ...

[Intrepidation]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyLznsUdXPQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&

Zoiks, suddenly I feel so old-skool for panning this thing.[/b]

Well &#036;h&#33;.

I have to say that is an epic video...good 3D and great music. Very futuristic. Makes the car look pretty good too, but the short nose still bugs me.

[Drew Dowdell]

Here's something I don't think anyone has stopped to consider: if they sell this in Europe, how do well received you think it would be?

Europe didn't exactly warm to the 1997 - 2004 Seville, you know.

The '97-'04 Seville also didn't have:

1. hybrid V6

2. didn't have AWD and the Europeans are scared &#036;h&#33;less of FWD like some of you folks here, so that wasn't the issue. Audi sells nearly all of its models in Europe with just FWD.

3. didn't have the interior the XTS has

I think it had more to do with the fact that Europeans are much more attune to what buying imported products does to their economy.

There was a huge stink a few years ago about former West German manufacturing jobs moving to former East Germany in search of cheaper labor. If they kicked up that much fuss about jobs moving elsewhere inside the same country do you really think they are going to be lining up for a car build in Oshawa, Ontario or Hamtramak Michigan?

[regfootball]

yeah the video definitely brings back the 'cab forward' aesthetic prominently in 3d. i bet the DTS looks 20 years old next to this.

[Drew Dowdell]

They didn't even have one at the show that I recall.

[Satty]

yeah the video definitely brings back the 'cab forward' aesthetic prominently in 3d. i bet the DTS looks 20 years old next to this.

The DTS looks 20 years old compared to pretty much everything.

[ocnblu]

Well, I guess a teardrop is the purest shape from an aerodynamics standpoint...

[pow]

The '97-'04 Seville also didn't have:

1. hybrid V6

2. didn't have AWD and the Europeans are scared &#036;h&#33;less of FWD like some of you folks here, so that wasn't the issue. Audi sells nearly all of its models in Europe with just FWD.

3. didn't have the interior the XTS has

I think it had more to do with the fact that Europeans are much more attune to what buying imported products does to their economy.

There was a huge stink a few years ago about former West German manufacturing jobs moving to former East Germany in search of cheaper labor. If they kicked up that much fuss about jobs moving elsewhere inside the same country do you really think they are going to be lining up for a car build in Oshawa, Ontario or Hamtramak Michigan?

No, it's cause the '97 Seville was outclassed by its competitors, too big, and handled like a pig even when compared to base non-quattro Audis.

And if Europeans only buy "domestic", why is the #1 and #2 best selling car in the UK the Spanish-made Ford Fiesta and Ford Focus?

[Drew Dowdell]

No, it's cause the '97 Seville was outclassed by its competitors, too big, and handled like a pig even when compared to base non-quattro Audis.

And if Europeans only buy "domestic", why is the #1 and #2 best selling car in the UK the Spanish-made Ford Fiesta and Ford Focus?

"Domestic" in this case refers to all of Europe much like we in the U.S. would consider the Impala a domestic even though it's built in Canada. To people in the EU, where it's built is more important than the nationality of the brand.

People in the EU will buy from the EU before buying import. Hence your Spanish made Fiesta and Focus. If the XTS were sold in the EU badged as an Opel but built in Oshawa it wouldn't do as well as if it were badged as a Cadillac but built in Frankfurt.

The day they start importing Insignias from Canada into the EU, the Insignia will lose it's status there.

edit: and I don't disagree about the STS's handling, but that wasn't because it was FWD... as the Audi proves.

[smk4565]

WallyWorld ~ >>"A front drive Cadillac is just as bad as GM making a front drive Camaro with a turbo V6 and claiming it to be a sports car."<<

Riiiiight, because Cadillac & mercedes sedans are driven like sports cars, so they need V8s & RWD ONLY. Uh-huh.

>>"The S-class has a 612 hp/738 lb-ft V12 option also."<<

Wonder which one sells more.. and which one will sell more 5 years from now ?

>>"That is the difference, I can't choose a V12 XTS, I have to get a V6. "<<

So these people only buy by cylinder count? In other words, while you mention BMW's claimed HP, you continue to ignore that a Cadillac with 350 HP trumps a mercedes with only 295 HP and HERE focus on cylinder count instead of HP. Nice consistancy.

RWD cars ride better and accelerate without as much front end lift as a FWD car. RWD is not only better for performance, but for luxurious and smooth ride as well. RWD is just better. Much like V8s are just smoother and sound better than a V6.

Mercedes doesn't sell a lot of S65's but what do you think the profit margin on that car is, it has a list price of $201,000. $110,000 more than an S550. And what does it do to enhance Mercedes' image. Cadillac's 350 hp is better than the S400's 295, but you can get 385, 510, or 612 hp in an S-class. Likewise with the 7-series, you can get 6, 8, or 12 cylinders with 330-550 hp. Cadillac offers no choice, just a V6.

[smk4565]

The '97-'04 Seville also didn't have:

1. hybrid V6

2. didn't have AWD and the Europeans are scared &#036;h&#33;less of FWD like some of you folks here, so that wasn't the issue. Audi sells nearly all of its models in Europe with just FWD.

3. didn't have the interior the XTS has

I think it had more to do with the fact that Europeans are much more attune to what buying imported products does to their economy.

There was a huge stink a few years ago about former West German manufacturing jobs moving to former East Germany in search of cheaper labor. If they kicked up that much fuss about jobs moving elsewhere inside the same country do you really think they are going to be lining up for a car build in Oshawa, Ontario or Hamtramak Michigan?

Lexus has a hybrid V6 (and hybrid V8) on sale in Europe, AWD, and some decent interiors, yet they struggle in Europe. American cars are thought of as jokes in Europe, the XTS won't change their mind. The XTS isn't a better car than the CTS, and the CTS can't make a dent over there. Cadillac would need a Veyron or Maybach type of car to start to change their image, and I don't see that coming.

[smk4565]

It just seems like it is the early 1980s all over again. Bad economy and fuel efficiency push, so Cadillac turns to front wheel drive, downsizes their engines, pulls out the V8-6-4, and worst diesel of all time. Yet Cadillacs were still bigger than the European cars, couldn't handle as well as them, and they did gimmicks like digital gauges and lots of chrome to differentiate the Caddies from Olds or Buick. It has come full circle. The XTS is a LaCrosse with an upgraded interior, 4 inch longer wheelbase and optional hybrid system for likely $20,000 more money. That isn't what a Cadillac should be.

[balthazar]

>>"RWD cars ride better and accelerate without as much front end lift as a FWD car. RWD is not only better for performance, but for luxurious and smooth ride as well."<<

Ride has nothing to do with which wheels propell the car- ride is all suspension, tires, and insulation/mounts. Handling is another matter, but ride? Sorry.

>>"Mercedes... S65... what does it do to enhance Mercedes' image?"<<

Question is, what does a V6 S-class's image do to the exact same car as a V-12 at double the price (or more) ??

>>"Cadillac's 350 hp is better than the S400's 295..."<<

That must've absolutely KILLED you to type. Congratulations, there may be hope ye... nah.

>>"...you can get 385, 510, or 612 hp in an S-class. Likewise with the 7-series, you can get 6, 8, or 12 cylinders with 330-550 hp. Cadillac offers no choice, just a V6."<<

Legitimate... but still ignores the top-sedan V-6 market. People don't waffle between the V-12 and the V-6 on the S/7 - they come into the showroom looking for one or the other.

So those looking at a V6 S-class could now have a much more modern, more technologically advanced V6 XTS to cross-shop, where they had no Wreath & Crest choice before. See- more choice = gooder.

>>"American cars are thought of as jokes in Europe"<<

As Olds very succinctly pointed out & your post supported; foreign cars are thought of as 'jokes'. This from an area that bled out it's entire auto industry...

But in fact, vintage American iron in Europe is highly coveted.

>>"The XTS isn't a better car than the CTS..."<<

Well, the CTS IS a pretty damned nice car, I agree... but the facts here is that the XTS is a DIFFERENT car than the CTS- they aren't comparable. But the interior blows everything else out of the water in Europe- they have nothing like that there. If it comes to market as shown, it's definately going to garner some real interest, IMO.

We'll see.

Edited January 18, 2010 by balthazar

[turbo200]

>>"RWD cars ride better and accelerate without as much front end lift as a FWD car. RWD is not only better for performance, but for luxurious and smooth ride as well."<<

Ride has nothing to do with which wheels propell the car- ride is all suspension, tires, and insulation/mounts. Handling is another matter, but ride? Sorry.

does the tune of the suspension, the choice of tires not get influenced by the inherent balance of the chassis? FWD designers have to compensate and stiffen the platform in order to make it feel more balanced, thereby tuning the suspension for a more 'controlled ride'. he's actually right on this point. rwd is the best solution for luxury cars....there's no more need to debate this point just for the sake of defending GM on this choice. the best we can hope for is a solid performing car that also does a good job of isolating the ride. i think we can expect both of those, the ultimate handling, performance, and ride though will leave much room for the euro competitors to top...we can also expect that. look at reviews of the lacrosse to know most of where it will fall...though i think we can expect GM to change the tune, but i don't expect much either, based on history.

I think a V8 is a must option for this car, especially after that hot vid. that vid highlights both the best attributes of XTS and some of the less appealing factors. XTS looks and feels like a fullsize flagship. it's still a stopgap. but it should be allowed to be as good as it can be, and priced accordingly. a cadillac with that amount of prestige baked into the design like this car has, needs the right features that will sell the performance and exclusivity of this car, and therefore be priced at $50k-60k. it should have awd standard....also should only come with advanced hybrid system.

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS is AWD.

[Justin Bimmer]

The XTS is AWD.

You keep saying this, yet people must not understand what AWD is.

AWD = ALL WHEEL DRIVE

[Satty]

You keep saying this, yet people must not understand what AWD is.

AWD = ALL WHEEL DRIVE

I kept thinking anterior wheel drive. I feel like such an idiot.

[Robert Hall]

You keep saying this, yet people must not understand what AWD is.

AWD = ALL WHEEL DRIVE

Yes, it's been said probably 200 times in this thread. But, if this is based on Epsilon II, then it's based on just a common FWD platform w/ transverse engine. Hardly the material of a premium flagship if you aiming at the likes of Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc. Fine if the MKS, RL and ES are the target models, though.

The generic FWD platform and strange proportions are the biggest negatives to this car, IMHO.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

>>"...you can get 385, 510, or 612 hp in an S-class. Likewise with the 7-series, you can get 6, 8, or 12 cylinders with 330-550 hp. Cadillac offers no choice, just a V6."<<

Legitimate... but still ignores the top-sedan V-6 market. People don't waffle between the V-12 and the V-6 on the S/7 - they come into the showroom looking for one or the other.

So those looking at a V6 S-class could now have a much more modern, more technologically advanced V6 XTS to cross-shop, where they had no Wreath & Crest choice before. See- more choice = gooder.

But if you seek a good V6, the Ford Taurus has a 365 hp V6 right now. Why wait 2-3 years for Cadillac to offer me a 350 hp V6? And to me, I'd take a V8 over an equally powered V6 any day of the week. Hybrids are of no interest to me, and only 3% of cars sold in the USA are hybrids. The XTS really does nothing that one couldn't get from a Lincoln MKS right now. Aside from the hybrid system, which will surely be optional, and we don't know exactly what the mileage numbers are.

[balthazar]

turbo200 ~ >>"does the tune of the suspension, the choice of tires not get influenced by the inherent balance of the chassis? FWD designers have to compensate and stiffen the platform in order to make it feel more balanced, thereby tuning the suspension for a more 'controlled ride'. he's actually right on this point."<<

Are there 'FWD' tires & 'RWD' tires? Are choices here mandated by F- or RWD? No, they're not.

'Stiffening the platform' is not going to overcome 'bad balance', but this is a moot point if the XTS comes in around the 55/45 its logistically at. In other words, if it were 70/30 or thereabouts, we'd be splitting firewood, not hairs.

>>"rwd is the best solution for luxury cars..."<<

Agreed.... tho a class leading luxury car should be well-rounded in all categories of performance... and in some instances, a case for the improved traction of AWD can be made.

>>"...there's no more need to debate this point just for the sake of defending GM on this choice."<<

Don't make assumptions on the motivations of others.

>>"...the ultimate handling, performance, and ride though will leave much room for the euro competitors to top..."<<

Completely unknown at this point.

>>"...it should have awd standard....also should only come with advanced hybrid system."<<

Agreed (stated by myself yesterday).

I read elsewhere that Welburn said it is to be AWD standard, that it is as close to the production car as the Camaro was, and that he expects a slightly longer wheelbase. ALL great news.

Edited January 18, 2010 by balthazar