Detroit 2010: Cadillac XTS Platinum Concept

[CaddyXLR-V]

Also, I don't think a lack of RWD products from GM has been because of CAFE. I think it has been because their business plan from old school bean counters said no to it.

That didn't stop them from using that excuse. And it didn't stop everyone on here from giving that excuse either. All I see is everyone making excuses as to why GM does what it does. If this car was FWD everyone would be saying it is for efficiency and CAFE. Now that its AWD, it's because that it is just as good as RWD despite being worse on CAFE.

[Justin Bimmer]

Um, it is a Hybrid because of CAFE

[CaddyXLR-V]

Um, it is a Hybrid because of CAFE

That doesn't change the fact that they can make a AWD car despite CAFE, but use CAFE as a reason to why they can't make more RWD cars. Why not a RWD hybrid if they are so worried about CAFE? It's just an excuse.

[Drew Dowdell]

Again, this is a Fritz car that was designed when Zeta was dead to the U.S. That's why it's set up the way it is.

[regfootball]

It didn't sizzle me at first...but pictures aren't giving the real effect of it, at all. It's classy, crisp, and big Cadillac without being over the edge as much. Maybe boring to some, but we'll see in more time.

I trust Peter DeLorenzo when he calls it his best in show, period. That doesn't happen unless it's THERE, and as he said tonight on AutoLine in reference to forum & web chatter (such as "it looks like a Taurus") you simply have no idea until you see this car in person, from the shape to the sheer size of it. Can't wait for it, Epsilon II AWD & all. Great. The STS never sold, the DTS is old, and this seems great, hopefully to sell in big numbers.

http://www.autoextremist.com/

The Autoextremist Best in Show: I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, but Ed Welburn’s troops at GM Design have been on a roll for several years now, and they’ve done it yet again with the sensational Cadillac XTS Platinum Concept. Wonderfully proportioned and craftily rendered, the surface detailing alone on this machine is nothing short of a clinic on how it’s done. Combine that with an interior design and execution that’s simply second to none, and the XTS Platinum has everything a car worthy of “best in show” accolades must have from where we sit. The Cadillac XTS Platinum not only has a majestic presence, it’s clearly the direct spiritual successor to the magnificent Sixteen concept from several years ago. The XTS Platinum will allow Cadillac to take its rightful place again as the ultimate expression of American luxury, and the new Standard of the World.

Not nitpicking a proportion here or there, just want to see more. It's not a big Lacross, Malibu, etc., it's a BIG Cadillac, and one done great. Zeta can't be everything and, honestly, for this car, Sigma aside, I think EP-II with the DI 3.6L, Hybrid and whatever else are good moves.

Just my take

you know, i decided to give the car a second look again. to me, where i started to warm a bit with was when i saw it in a video. they rotated the car all around. to me, when i saw it in 3d, it started to look better. not more dynamic, but it really did help to see the 'fullness' of the car in 3d. and just now, looking at the pathetic a8 picture in this thread again......what i think here is at play is not so much the detailing or any wow touches on the car. i think they really have tried to force and sneak a whole proportion change past us like the guys here have been mapiing out in those images. that is what really becomes evident in the video. in that way, maybe the car is futuristic. i got the sense from the video that there are likely few cars that have as long a greenhouse. this car is indeed stretched out. so maybe that's why the hood is sooooo high, it has to give mass but its got no lenth. its the only way they could balance the car out in the front quarter view. i would love to see the silhoutte of the DTS imposed inch for inch on this XTS, i bet its rather shocking the proportion difference. the XTS is all greenhouse. The DTS is all hood and trunk. in this regard, the XTS is a big time game changer for what we all now believe to be the geezers cadillac.

someone made a comment on another website that 50+ folks STILL buy 80% of the lux cars or something and in reality made the valid point that this bunch many of them still want floaters. so if this is the new big cadillac floater, maybe it will sell. I don't know. I do know this, if this car were on the market right now, this would be the caddy my dad would flock to. LArge, FWD based, of course his other 2 cars right now are a seville and a DTS. He loves his DTS and he would probably get this XTS if it were out there. It would be a logical progression for him.

In that respect to him, i think someone like him would be fine with the styling.

I still think it needs work. But i really didn't get the proportions thing until i saw it in video.

I still think the interior was mailed in. I bet those rear seats are stright from the LaCrosse with show car upholstery.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Again, this is a Fritz car that was designed when Zeta was dead to the U.S. That's why it's set up the way it is.

And that's why GM needs to stop with it's split personality disorder. It causes confusion as to what Cadillac is supposed to be. It is a luxury performance brand, like the CTS and CTS-V, or is it just plain luxury with some power like Lincoln? It seems like GM can't get away from trying to have a car for everyone in each brand. What's the point of keeping Buick if Cadillac is trying to get the same buyers?

[Justin Bimmer]

And that's why GM needs to stop with it's split personality disorder. It causes confusion as to what Cadillac is supposed to be. It is a luxury performance brand, like the CTS and CTS-V, or is it just plain luxury with some power like Lincoln? It seems like GM can't get away from trying to have a car for everyone in each brand. What's the point of keeping Buick if Cadillac is trying to get the same buyers?

Why can't Cadillac be both? Full line luxury marks have everything to sell to people who want to buy it. I think GM is starting to do a good job of keeping Buick out of the Cadillac price range. Besides, you are always going to have overlap with the most expensive Buick and the cheapest Cadillac.

[Drew Dowdell]

And that's why GM needs to stop with it's split personality disorder. It causes confusion as to what Cadillac is supposed to be. It is a luxury performance brand, like the CTS and CTS-V, or is it just plain luxury with some power like Lincoln? It seems like GM can't get away from trying to have a car for everyone in each brand. What's the point of keeping Buick if Cadillac is trying to get the same buyers?

Well then what are Infiniti, Audi, and even BMW and Mercedes? They're not all M and AMG cars. There is nothing to the XTS suggesting that it wouldn't be a capable handler like an A8 or 7-Series with AWD.

[Robert Hall]

Well then what are Infiniti, Audi, and even BMW and Mercedes? They're not all M and AMG cars. There is nothing to the XTS suggesting that it wouldn't be a capable handler like an A8 or 7-Series with AWD.

Being transverse engine FWD/AWD I would assume it will be nose heavy compared to the A8 or 7-series. But as a DTS replacement, good handling is not a requirement.

[Drew Dowdell]

Being transverse engine FWD/AWD I would assume it will be nose heavy compared to the A8 or 7-series. But as a DTS replacement, good handling is not a requirement.

assume?

[Robert Hall]

assume?

Well, what's the weight distribution on an AWD Epsilon II? 75/25? 65/35? I can't imagine it would be very good..

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, what's the weight distribution on an AWD Epsilon II? 75/25? 65/35? I can't imagine it would be very good..

My guess would be around 60/40. The A8 is about 56/44 and the 750i is 51/49. 550i is 52/48.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well then what are Infiniti, Audi, and even BMW and Mercedes? They're not all M and AMG cars. There is nothing to the XTS suggesting that it wouldn't be a capable handler like an A8 or 7-Series with AWD.

Infiniti is all RWD/AWD, Audi's handle the worst out of the brands mentioned but they are all consistant with their N/S FWD/AWD with the exception of the A3, BMW is all RWD/AWD, and so is Mercedes. The XTS must be competition for the RL, because it's not a competitor to any of the other cars listed.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well, what's the weight distribution on an AWD Epsilon II? 75/25? 65/35? I can't imagine it would be very good..

The FWD Lacrosse CXS is 58/42.

An AWD CTS is 52/48.

I would assume the AWD Lacrosse is somewhere in between that. (can't find the numbers)

[Drew Dowdell]

Infiniti is all RWD/AWD, Audi's handle the worst out of the brands mentioned but they are all consistant with their N/S FWD/AWD with the exception of the A3, BMW is all RWD/AWD, and so is Mercedes. The XTS must be competition for the RL, because it's not a competitor to any of the other cars listed.

Because you've driven the XTS right? Was that you in the video I shot of them loading it on the turntable?

And are we going down the "It's gotta handle like an M3 or else it's crap" route again?

As long as the XTS handles within the margin of it's typical driver's capabilities compared to the competition, it'll do fine.

[Robert Hall]

Infiniti is all RWD/AWD, Audi's handle the worst out of the brands mentioned but they are all consistant with their N/S FWD/AWD with the exception of the A3, BMW is all RWD/AWD, and so is Mercedes. The XTS must be competition for the RL, because it's not a competitor to any of the other cars listed.

MKS, RL, and ES are the obvious competitors for the XTS.

[CaddyXLR-V]

MKS, RL, and ES are the obvious competitors for the XTS.

We both get that. I wonder why the rest of the people here don't. I doubt this car will be pulling in people shopping for a 5 series or a Lexus LS. The problem I have with this car is that I know GM can, and should do better.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Because you've driven the XTS right? Was that you in the video I shot of them loading it on the turntable?

And are we going down the "It's gotta handle like an M3 or else it's crap" route again?

As long as the XTS handles within the margin of it's typical driver's capabilities compared to the competition, it'll do fine.

Acuras handle pretty good too don't they. But for some reason they haven't reached the status level of Lexus, BMW or Mercedes. I guess there's more to it than just throwing in AWD and a powerful V6.

[Intrepidation]

I am warming up to it, though I'd still prefer it to have the proportions my chop does.

[Lamar]

I just did some digging...

As vonVeezelsnider noted in the first post, this car has a wheelbase an inch longer* than the Impala, which actually gives it the same wheelbase as the LaCrosse, more or less.

The CTS wheelbase is 1.7 inches longer than that of the LaCrosse.

So if this car is dimensionally similar (almost identical except for the elongated rear) to the LaCrosse but will undoubtedly out-price the CTS which has a longer wheelbase... really, where will this car fit? It's not even the traditional land barge that the Deville and DTS were...

(* - edit)

Edited January 15, 2010 by Lamar

[Robert Hall]

I just did some digging...

As vonVeezelsnider noted in the first post, this car has a wheelbase an inch shorter than the Impala, which actually gives it the same wheelbase as the LaCrosse, more or less.

The CTS wheelbase is 1.7 inches longer than that of the LaCrosse.

It wouldn't make any sense for this car's wheelbase to be less than the CTS.

It's the wierd proportions that get me..short, tall nose...long midsection, really short rear. Those proportions arguably worked on the cab forward Chrysler LH products, but I can't see them on a Cadillac. I'm more of the long hood/short deck tradition, I guess.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Intrepidation]

Except the LX cars have a longer hood/windield further back and short front overhang.

[Robert Hall]

Except the LX cars have a longer hood/windield further back and short front overhang.

I meant LH. Typo. The shortest rear was on the 300M, the others had longer rears. LX are most definitely NOT cab forward, very RWD proportions...

Edited January 15, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Intrepidation]

Chrysler knew how to proportion their FWD cars back then, before Daimler came.

[regfootball]

I am warming up to it, though I'd still prefer it to have the proportions my chop does.

your chop IS still better

[SAmadei]

Chrysler learned how to proportion their FWD cars back then from AMC and Renault, before Daimler came.

Fixed.

[balthazar]

>>"The FWD Lacrosse CXS is 58/42.

An AWD CTS is 52/48.

I would assume the AWD Lacrosse is somewhere in between that."<<

I would agree the AWD LaC should be between the above. Let's peg it at 55/45.

AWD XTS, with a longer rear, might nudge that to 56/44.

A8 is 56/44, but the XTS is "obviously" going to be uncompetitive with that based on... I'm not sure what.

>>"I doubt this car will be pulling in people shopping for a 5 series or a Lexus LS."<<

5-series, prolly true. But the LS?? You think people are tossing these around thru corners ??

It's a jelly-bellied cruiser, where an AWS XTS with a tuned suspension will likely outhandle it at limits... even tho neither are going to be driven beyond 7/10th of their capabilities and neither will be sold on those capabilities either.

I'm willing to bet not a single LS was sold primarily because it simply was RWD, and that 75% of it's owners have no idea which are the drive wheels.

[Robert Hall]

Chrysler learned how to proportion their FWD cars back then from AMC and Renault, before Daimler came.

Fixed.

Huh? Delusion...AMC had no FWD models, and Renault's models the sold in the US during the AMC/Renault era were just ordinary FWD generics. Cab-forward is a unique Chrysler contribution of the '90s, from Tom Gale's design studio, IIRC.

[Robert Hall]

I'm willing to bet not a single LS was sold primarily because it simply was RWD, and that 75% of it's owners have no idea which are the drive wheels.

Perhaps, but at least the LS is a strikingly handsome sedan w/ proper RWD proportions.

The ES is the appropriate Lexus target of the XTS.

[Intrepidation]

Fixed.

The styling wasn't inspired by AMC or Renault, it was elements of the engineering from AMC and the N/S mounting of the engine.

[Robert Hall]

The styling wasn't inspired by AMC or Renault, it was elements of the engineering from AMC and the N/S mounting of the engine.

Really...interesting. AMC never had a FWD car. There was the Renault model, though, that was sold as the Eagle something and Dodge Monaco for a few years, IIRC it was FWD but no idea how the engine was orientated.

[balthazar]

In this segment, the LS is bland, anonymous & generic. It has no design language or design heritage, and the only way it can slime it's way to being termed 'handsome' is because it's so utterly homogenized. It looks no more expensive than the camry, and if you agree that 'perhaps' 75% don't know it's RWD, then the profile view-only RWD proportions are lost on that 75%.

A car in this class has to bring a HELLVA lot more to the table than a stand-back, profile-view implication of RWD. Remember, in this class, RWD is the mainstream/generic. (<-- that doesn't mean I personally want FWD because of traction or it's 'different'.... just saying the focus on such in the upper lux seg is highly overrated.)

Edited January 16, 2010 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

In this segment, the LS is bland, anonymous & generic. It has no design language or design heritage, and the only way it can slime it's way to being termed 'handsome' is because it's so utterly homogenized.

You are stating your opinions as if they were facts. Lexus has it's own design language, it just may not be apparent to you. If you actually looked at the car in person, you would see it's much more than a Camry..it's a very nice product, beautifully built. The LS is the only Toyota/Lexus product I really like.

The only automakers that are currently successful in upper luxury and ultra luxury w/ FWD based AWD models has been Audi and Bentley, both VW brands. RWD and RWD/AWD is still a necessity in luxury cars, as RWD is fundamentally superior to FWD--that's my opinion, of course, but you don't see Porsche, Maserati, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus (in their higher end models) using something as mediocre/generic/pedestrian/lowly as transverse V6 w/ FWD..

Edited January 16, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Intrepidation]

Really...interesting. AMC never had a FWD car. There was the Renault model, though, that was sold as the Eagle something and Dodge Monaco for a few years, IIRC it was FWD but no idea how the engine was orientated.

From Allpar

There has been some debate on whether the LH cars were based on the Eagle Premier, a Renault design modified by AMC engineers. Dan Minick noted that there were some interchangeable parts between the two designs; but Bob Sheaves and Dan Minick both wrote that, when François Castaing took over as VP of Engineering, the existing large-car design (which apparently owed a lot to the K-cars) was dropped. This vehicle, spearheaded by Hal Sperlich, had a transverse engine and was styled like a Dynasty, but 6.5 inches wider, with a 13 inch longer wheelbase.

Castaing suggested using the Premier/R25 chassis as a starting point for a new big car. Most everything was changed, but engineering-wise they started with the Premier; Hal Sperlich’s big transverse-engine car was abandoned.

Bob Sheaves noted that “the geometry is exactly the same for the suspension, and the packaging was derived from the Eagle Premiere. All of the suspension and drivetrain mules were Premiers also... The rear suspension is as described in the link provided, but with one addition...AMC recieved 2 patents on the torsion bar design. Chrysler developed longitudinal torsion bars into a high science, but the transverse bars of the M-body (when used in police service) had an annoying tendency to allow the front suspension to lose alignment whenever a curb was hit. The same engineer responsible for the M-body design corrected the problems on the Premier, in that the bars were "folded" together into a single, more compact design that was more rigid in bending and smoother riding, due to lower rate and greater travel.”

When the original LH was being designed, there was an LX platform that was configurable as AWD, FWD and RWD by swapping components around. Three LX prototypes with V8 engines and ZF AWD transaxles were remade as "Premier" police cars, and crashed on the TV series “Viper.”

The front suspension used struts with coil springs; cast iron lower control arms with steel tension struts controlled wheel movement. Suspension travel, over 7 inches worth, beat any Chrysler passenger car of the time by half an inch. Inverted cup-shaped upper strut mounts permitted travel over the body mounting point without hood bumps. A link-type stabilizer bar with double ball joints kept weight down.

The rear suspension was a multi-link Chapman strut system, named for the founder of Lotus; an upright strut included the shock absorber and a concentric coil spring, which connected to the wheel through a hub and to the body through a rubber isolator. Two transverse lower links per wheel provided toe adjustment; single trailing arms attached to the hub. A link-type stabilizer bar was also standard. This was the first multi-link suspension used on a Chrysler built car; it had travel of 8.5 inches, over half an inch better than any then-built Chrysler car.

[Robert Hall]

Cool...never knew the history of the LH relative to the Premier/Monaco. A friend in college had a Monaco, but I never looked under the hood.

[balthazar]

>>"You are stating your opinions as if they were facts."<<

We ALL do this.

>>"Lexus has it's own design language, it just may not be apparent to you. If you actually looked at the car in person..."<<

I certainly have seen these in person. Here in central NJ; they're quite common.

>>"...you would see it's much more than a Camry..it's a very nice product, beautifully built."<<

Being nice & well-built is not a reflection on it's design/styling, which is what I was referring to. But let's take a look here :

Same soft, amorphous surfacing, same trapeziodal grille, same greenhouse, same door pulls, same fender-to-hood scallop, same stretched inner corner headlights... not the same parts, but the same 'language'. You cannot get more generic than the camry.

At least the others in this segment (7-series, S-class, no matter their repective awkward bits) are unmistakable and take some chances, plus they expand upon the respective brand's cues. LS= no character, no spunk, no individuality. Nice car, well built, but boring & invisible as hell to look at.

IMO, I don't think that's naught but opinion, as the pics show rather well.

Edited January 16, 2010 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

The interior is the best part of the car. I've sat in one. It would be ideal for my commute--serene, quiet, comfortable w/ a powerful sound system to isolate the driver amidst the chaos and generic FWD cars of the daily grind.

An AWD Buick Lacrosse would be just as conducive to that end.

[Drew Dowdell]

Too small

Well then we have this beautiful new Cadillac XTS...oh... wait... right.... nevermind. Not RWD... and that clearly was a requirement

[balthazar]

Cubitar ~ >>"...you have this 'oracle of all automotive knowledge' image on this board..."<<

{blinks} I do ?? Aww shucks. Actually, I only feel confident RE the '50s & '60s... but I take stabs outside of that.

>>"...but really, you... have strong opinions, as many of us do. "<<

True, true (watching the game, having a Bud).

>>"The interior is the best part of the car. I've sat in one."<<

I sat in a new one in '01 or '02, guy I worked with had one. I was impressed with how it was put together and the perception it was 'luxurious' inside... but there still was an impression of sterility and... soulessness about it all the same. That gen, with the big tacked-on Baleen whale grille, is the last LS that EVER caught my eye on the road; the gen(s) since then just do not. But interior & exterior success don't necc. go hand-in-hand.

>>"...maybe I'm becoming my Dad..."<<

My Dad owns a Lucerne (which is very quiet & smooth- but I don't like it otherwise, at all), I own a B-59. I don't think I'll 'move up' in this case.

[smk4565]

The problem with the XTS, is this platform and engine won't be able to command a price premium, much like he Acura RL failed against the 5-series and E-class despite costing much less. No matter what they do with the interior, the platform will hold the car back, thus they'll have to start discounting it or resort to fleet sales, which will just send Cadillac downward more. Once Cadillac sees that the car struggles to sell about $45,000 they'll have to come out with lower content models and we'll be right back to where we are with the DTS.

Cadillac doesn't fully understand the luxury market here, and they are clueless globally.

[SAmadei]

The styling wasn't inspired by AMC or Renault, it was elements of the engineering from AMC and the N/S mounting of the engine.

It was not inspired by production AMC or Renault cars... The most dedicated core of AMC engineers and stylists stuck together and survived the parting out of AMC... landing on the LH project before later being dispersed about the company.

Chrysler didn't go from super stretched K-car LeBarons to the LH cars without a serious infusion of talent. Not only that, but Chrysler learned quite a bit of efficiancies from AMC.

And don't sell the AMC styling folks short... GM likes to lament the "no money" BS, but AMC lived the "no money" shoie string budget for nearly 20 years... and the best stuff never saw the light of a dealership.

[balthazar]

When did acura have a 350-HP hybrid engine ??

Still waiting to learn why mercedes has a 295-HP hybrid in their s-class, too....

[ocnblu]

As an RL/ES competitor with an interior that blows all other FWD luxury cars into the weeds, I can accept this XTS. As a "flagship", it fails. But if a true "flagship" is yet to be seen, I am left wondering what is the point of this car on Epsilon II.

[ehaase]

MKS, RL, and ES are the obvious competitors for the XTS.

Unless Cadillac keeps the XTS pricing to the level of the ES pricing, the XTS will sell no better than the MKS and RL, probably about 20,000 per year.

The interior is nice, and the XTS looks like a Cadillac - unlike the MKS which doesn't look like a Lincoln - but the proportions are odd.

Despite all the praise, the Audi A6 and A8 are very poor sellers in this country, as are the RL and MKS. FWD based luxury sedans even with AWD just don't sell anymore.

[pow]

I wonder what the back seat is like, considering it has the same wheelbase as the LaCrosse. Most flagship luxo sedans are purchased in LWB form, which provide acres of legroom.

[Robert Hall]

Still waiting to learn why mercedes has a 295-HP hybrid in their s-class, too....

For the green image of hybrids and to increase the CAFE..

[Drew Dowdell]

The problem with the XTS, is this platform and engine won't be able to command a price premium, much like he Acura RL failed against the 5-series and E-class despite costing much less. No matter what they do with the interior, the platform will hold the car back, thus they'll have to start discounting it or resort to fleet sales, which will just send Cadillac downward more. Once Cadillac sees that the car struggles to sell about $45,000 they'll have to come out with lower content models and we'll be right back to where we are with the DTS.

Cadillac doesn't fully understand the luxury market here, and they are clueless globally.

Acura failed against the 5-series and E-class because even with all the added technology, it still looked like a Accord De Lux LS Brougham. Do you think anyone will ever mistake the XTS for anything but a Cadillac?

[regfootball]

Re reading an interesting point, about the CTS having a longer wheelbase......why isn't this xts on sigma ? Well the cts and sts are cramped. So using epsilon with the wheel well jammed into the front seat creates Dts style room. Sigma also prob not az wide as they want. Caddy is ashamed to have dts in showroom anymore, wants to end northstar, eps platform large caddy is a stopgap. Zeta needs to be reengineered with premium suspension and awd and rushed to market for a proper flagship caddy.

[loki]

>>"The FWD Lacrosse CXS is 58/42.

An AWD CTS is 52/48.

I would assume the AWD Lacrosse is somewhere in between that."<<

I would agree the AWD LaC should be between the above. Let's peg it at 55/45.

AWD XTS, with a longer rear, might nudge that to 56/44.

A8 is 56/44, but the XTS is "obviously" going to be uncompetitive with that based on... I'm not sure what.

....

if it has a longer rear, wouldn't that move the weight back, not forward? or is the hybrid being taken into account?

any info on the hybrid trans? 4 speed, 6 speed? something else?

[Drew Dowdell]

if it has a longer rear, wouldn't that move the weight back, not forward? or is the hybrid being taken into account?

any info on the hybrid trans? 4 speed, 6 speed? something else?

It's the standard GM 2-mode that has 4 fixed ratios and 2 E-CVTs