Detroit 2010: Cadillac XTS Platinum Concept

[RBB]

Yeah, as usual GM photography sucks. It looks much better in real life photos from the unveiling, and the people taking those photos are saying even they don't do the car justice.

It's a tad too conservative, but overall I like it.

-RBB

[Drew Dowdell]

The XTS is FAR better looking in person than in the GM photos. It's got presence. It's got style. I have a bunch more photos to upload and even a video of the thing driving on the NAIAS show floor... but for now, I have to pay my bill at Bob Evans and continue to "evaluate the performance" of the Camaro RS I have sitting in the parking lot.

[PurdueGuy]

I think this looks very classy. I think a FWD car, executed well, has a place in the Cadillac lineup. Not every Cadillac needs to be a tire burning, twisty carving, RWD performance vehicle IMO (though they should all have decent get-up-and-go). I do think the Cadillac flagship should be RWD/AWD though. A FWD luxury barge should be a mid-level car IMO.

[G. David Felt]

The car is an amazing and long overdue update / replacement for the STS/DTS which are horrible cars. Hopefully as an AWD they will truly have what looks to be 12" of space from the back of the seats to the front seats. Course until I get one and sit in it and then see if I can sit behind myself will I really know if this car has the space a full size sedan is supposed to have.

Nice Job GM, Now lets get a quad set of 6'6" tall people in the car and see if they really are comfortable.

[G. David Felt]

I think I'd rather see the STS reskinned with these styling cues and interior and keep it than this car.

I don't get why GM doesn't do that...it's not like Sigma is a bad platform...it's one of their best. Why not better utilize it in teh Cadillac brand?

Dodgefan, I realize you are not as big as me, but if you really take a hard look at the STS & DTS, these cars need to die.

Issues with these cars,

NO HEAD ROOM

FLOAT RIDE

LACK OF ANY BODY SUPPORT IN THE CHAIRS

I could go on but those are just a few. My parents took their SRX in for a 60K service and was given a STS to drive as a loaner and they picked me up and my sister who is 5'8" tall and even she had NO HEAD room in the back seat. My dad swore anyone could sit in the car till I got in the drivers seat and adjusted it for me to drive and he tried to get in behind me and could barely squeeze his legs in behind the seat. NO REAR LEG SPACE.

While the pics of the XTS show a ton of rear leg room, they really need to ut the seat all the way back and see if someone can sit behind that front seat for 3-4 hours at least. I doubt it.

[Lamar]

A FWD luxury barge should be a Buick IMO.

Fixed it for ya.

[Robert Hall]

Nice Job GM, Now lets get a quad set of 6'6" tall people in the car and see if they really are comfortable.

Is that realistic, though? How many people are that tall and haul around other people that tall? Basketball teams, maybe, but not the general public..

[Robert Hall]

The power train in this concept is perfectly appropriate for the base model. See: Mercedes S400, BMW 740i. I keep seeing people say its FWD, but according to the PR its AWD. Seems normal to me. Whose to say its not RWD? Nowhere does it mention its FWD unless I missed something.

It's obvious from the photos it's based on a FWD platform, probably Epsilon II. The extremely short front door to front wheelwell distance screams FWD. It's a cab forward design, not something previously seen at Cadillac and not something seen in this segment.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[PurdueGuy]

Fixed it for ya.

No, not really. Let's say I'm a company executive making six figures a year. I care about image, I care about luxury, I care about safety and feel that FWD is safer and have no desire for RWD. I have no interest in GM's "second best" brand Buick, that's for old people (I hope GM can defeat this image, but for now, it's there). So where am I going to shop? Sounds like Lexus gets my money.

I don't see Cadillac as a performance brand, I see it as a luxury brand. Yes, they should have luxury performance models to compete with BMW and performance models from every lux brand out there. IMO their flagship should be RWD. But there is a MARKET for FWD luxury vehicles, and for enthusiasts to be blind to market demands and say things like Cadillac should be all RWD is silly, and ignores good business. To try to shoehorn people into a brand they don't want isn't good business either. All RWD belongs in a performance brand, like what Pontiac should have been.

[bowtie_dude]

Question for those who have a problem with it being on the modified EpsII platform. If its standard AWD on ALL models, is it really that big of a deal that its technically sitting on a FWD architecture?

[Robert Hall]

Question for those who have a problem with it being on the modified EpsII platform. If its standard AWD on ALL models, is it really that big of a deal that its technically sitting on a FWD architecture?

Fine...it will be competitive w/ the MKS and RL. Not competitive w/ BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus.

[PurdueGuy]

Question for those who have a problem with it being on the modified EpsII platform. If its standard AWD on ALL models, is it really that big of a deal that its technically sitting on a FWD architecture?

I would guess that some of the people on here who only think in the performance enthusiast mindset, and not a mindset that considers market demands, will never get past a vehicle being on a FWD platform, even if it's AWD. That said, my concern is if the EpsII platform is/can be refined enough to deserve the Cadillac badge. To me, FWD/AWD is fine, but if it's a Cadillac it'd better be smoooooth and uber quiet, very refined. There will be automatic scoffing any time a Cadillac and a Chevy share a platform, so it will have to prove itself above and beyond to be deserving the crest & wreath.

[Intrepidation]

Dodgefan, I realize you are not as big as me, but if you really take a hard look at the STS & DTS, these cars need to die.

Issues with these cars,

NO HEAD ROOM

FLOAT RIDE

LACK OF ANY BODY SUPPORT IN THE CHAIRS

I could go on but those are just a few. My parents took their SRX in for a 60K service and was given a STS to drive as a loaner and they picked me up and my sister who is 5'8" tall and even she had NO HEAD room in the back seat. My dad swore anyone could sit in the car till I got in the drivers seat and adjusted it for me to drive and he tried to get in behind me and could barely squeeze his legs in behind the seat. NO REAR LEG SPACE.

While the pics of the XTS show a ton of rear leg room, they really need to ut the seat all the way back and see if someone can sit behind that front seat for 3-4 hours at least. I doubt it.

You realize based one what? I don't recall me posting saying my height and such. How tall are you?

[Lamar]

No, not really. Let's say I'm a company executive making six figures a year. I care about image, I care about luxury, I care about safety and feel that FWD is safer and have no desire for RWD. I have no interest in GM's "second best" brand Buick, that's for old people (I hope GM can defeat this image, but for now, it's there). So where am I going to shop? Sounds like Lexus gets my money.

So you'd buy a gussied-up Camry? That's the only FWD sedan they make.

I don't see Cadillac as a performance brand, I see it as a luxury brand. Yes, they should have luxury performance models to compete with BMW and performance models from every lux brand out there. IMO their flagship should be RWD. But there is a MARKET for FWD luxury vehicles, and for enthusiasts to be blind to market demands and say things like Cadillac should be all RWD is silly, and ignores good business. To try to shoehorn people into a brand they don't want isn't good business either. All RWD belongs in a performance brand, like what Pontiac should have been.

The XTS has been described by GM as Cadillac's new flagship model, which is why everyone's up in arms about it not being on a RWD platform.

[Intrepidation]

Also in the XTS' defense, the A8 which competes with the 7 Series and S Class is a FWD platform with AWD IIRC.

[Robert Hall]

Also in the XTS' defense, the A8 which competes with the 7 Series and S Class is a FWD platform with AWD IIRC.

Yes, but the A8 has north-south engine placement, not a generic transverse engine FWD platform shared w/ cheaper models.

[Intrepidation]

My Intrepid has a N/S engine placement and costs way less than any R8.

[Lamar]

Yes, but the A8 has north-south engine placement, not a generic transverse engine FWD platform shared w/ cheaper models.

And, because of it, Audi can (and does) squeeze engines of any size in there (V6, V8, V10, and W12).

If there were a way for Cadillac to fit a substantially bigger, more powerful engine in there, hey, I wouldn't mind.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Lamar

[hyperv6]

Well based on what I have been told by people who have really seen it in person I will not condem it till I see in in metal.

I have seen it said more than once the photos's just do not show how nice it looks. The photo's to me remind me of a upgraded Ford 500. It looks tall and boxy.

This should do well or as well as the present car. I have no issue with the AWD vs RWD. The people who will really buy this car will not care. Also the HP if at 350 HP or more will be enough. Again most buyers of this car don't count cylinders.

GM built a good car here but I think they over promised and we all over expected on this one. I suspect this is a bridge to what we will get in the future. Lets face it the CTS was not right the first time for many reasons that were corrected later.

[Camino LS6]

The car is an adequate replacement for the DTS, but not both the DTS and the STS - and it's no flagship, no Sixteen, and no groundbreaker.

Hyper is right, they over-promised on this one.

[balthazar]

I, too will wait until another set of pics shows up. Offhand- the 'cab-forward-esque' styling is unusual for Cadillac, but as the large cars keep shrinking, more & more are going to go this way, esp with the regular publication of EPA interior volume determining for folk which car is more "eficient", space-wise.

I am positive engine orientation has zero bearing on the demographic for this car OR the S-class/7-series. None of the owners of these cars ever looks under their own hood. And if the XTS comes as AWD standard, that -in this category alone- WILL compete with the RWD-only S-class/7-series fine.

From the pics- it has a nice flow thru the body stem-2-stern, but the profile & rear are a bit bland to my eye. Interior does look fantastic, tho. Esp like the 'V' theme echoed subtly thruout. Need more pics.

Edited January 12, 2010 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

On closer inspection, one thing I notice is the narrow driver's footwell. I know CR complained about the LaCrosse's intrusive center console and front wheelwell, and this looks no different. Check out the size of that dead pedal...

The large intrusion in the footwell is a side affect of weak FWD design, I think. For some reason, automakers don't add proper wheel house to door length on their FWD platforms.

[Robert Hall]

Question for those who have a problem with it being on the modified EpsII platform. If its standard AWD on ALL models, is it really that big of a deal that its technically sitting on a FWD architecture?

Epsilon II is just an ordinary, mass market FWD platform. Even w/ AWD, it's still not remotely premium. You can't compare this kind of generic platform to the kind of fundamentally superior RWD platforms used by other flagships like the S-class, 7-series, LS460, XJ, etc..

This will be fine to compete w/ the ES and MKS, but not big league models.

(I know I'm a RWD snob--FWD is fine for subcompacts, compacts, and midsize mass market models. It's not the stuff, though, of flagships or premium models, IMHO).

Edited January 13, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[ocnblu]

Well I've softened my opinion of it since seeing the real-life show floor photos, but to me, Epsilon is much too narrow for a full-size flagship, and the footwell is ridiculously narrow. The short door to front wheel distance hurts it, usurps its design authority. The wheelbase is too short.

When I said about the 9-5, I was talking about the giant rear overhang, for one aspect. Both cars share it.

I believe this car is on the wrong platform. It should have been on Zeta. The high, stubby front clip just does not look right.

[Justin Bimmer]

Question for those who have a problem with it being on the modified EpsII platform. If its standard AWD on ALL models, is it really that big of a deal that its technically sitting on a FWD architecture?

Maybe I shouldn't answer this cause I don't have a problem, but AWD should make a difference on the "perceived" inadequacy of FWD.

[Drew Dowdell]

And, because of it, Audi can (and does) squeeze engines of any size in there (V6, V8, V10, and W12).

If there were a way for Cadillac to fit a substantially bigger, more powerful engine in there, hey, I wouldn't mind.

GM has already shown that they can do a 465hp turbo 3.6 V6....the 3.6 V6 in the XTS is mated to a plug in two-mode hybrid as well.

Why bother with a V12?

[Robert Hall]

GM has already shown that they can do a 465hp turbo 3.6 V6....the 3.6 V6 in the XTS is mated to a plug in two-mode hybrid as well.

Why bother with a V12?

'flagship' luxury sedans don't have V6s as their top engines. V12 is a premium prestige engine the big dogs have--7-series, S-class...

[Drew Dowdell]

I am positive engine orientation has zero bearing on the demographic for this car OR the S-class/7-series. None of the owners of these cars ever looks under their own hood.

Just engineer the plastic trashcan lid for the top of the engine to make it look north/south

[Lamar]

GM has already shown that they can do a 465hp turbo 3.6 V6....the 3.6 V6 in the XTS is mated to a plug in two-mode hybrid as well.

Why bother with a V12?

Was this on a bench or in a car? And how many transverse transmissions would that grenade?

Twelve cylinders would be fun, but I'd be cool with 8.

'flagship' luxury sedans don't have V6s as their top engines. V12 is a premium prestige engine the big dogs have--7-series, S-class...

... and this too.

Just engineer the plastic trashcan lid for the top of the engine to make it look north/south

LOL... like the Hyundai Tiburon?

[Camino LS6]

Well, maybe they crunched the numbers and found that the DTS faithful had one more car purchase in them before expiring.

I think this will likely be the last FWD-based luxo-barge Caddy ever builds.

[Drew Dowdell]

Video of the XTS moving around the Cobo

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[cire]

The interior is beautiful and inspired.

The exterior is a big improvement over the outgoing DTS, but I'm not exactly sure it says "Cadillac" to me. The main reason I think I feel this way is that I see an evolution of the Malibu's overall shape when I look at this car. The Malibu is a nice looking car, but I'm not sure that the overall shape of a Cadillac product should recall or resemble Chevrolet's bread and butter midsize sedan. To me, this design would be great if it were an Epsilon II based replacement for the current W-body Impala, but I'm not sure it works well for Cadillac. The car is by no means ugly, though. It's a pleasantly attractive vehicle. The overall shape just appears to be more in line with the current Malibu instead of the current CTS.

[Camino LS6]

Watching the video, all I could think was: "How many GM employees does it take to..."

[Cory Wolfe]

Honestly, I wasn't sure if I clicked on the right link when I first viewed it on Autoblog. It's thoroughly underwhelming. That's supposed to be the flagship?

[Camino LS6]

Check out DF's chop of it for what it should have looked like.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Camino LS6

[Blake Noble]

I don't understand how some people are managing to soften the blow from this car; it's a hard right jab. The more I look at it and its basic specifications, the more I hate it. It's a 2012 Malibu wearing an expensive fur coat which is sort of like Greta Van Sustren wearing a Jessica Alba latex mask and diamond rings on each finger. It's not fooling anyone and you feel ashamed for what it's trying to do.

Someone should kick GM's ass for not building the UV8 or, at the very least, upgrading the Northstar V8 one last time. This car needs some form of a V8 under the hood. At least then I could compromise and say, "It's still a front-drive geezermobile Cadillac but at least it might sway a few folks away from the A8." I don't see many folks who are considering the A8 considering this car.

I do, however, see Old Ma and Pa Kettle croaking in the front seat over trying to figure out the ergonomics of the damn thing. GM essentially says it's supposed to be simple. Compared to the ergonomics of the DTSes these old folks are going to be trading in, which aren't much different from the ergonomics in a 2009 Chevrolet Impala, they might as well have nine iDrive interfaces to turn on the Air-Con.

Edited January 13, 2010 by whiteknight

[turbo200]

ok, i have to agree with you whiteknight from the perspective of a cadillac fan. knowing what cadillac is capable of, being a huge fan of both cts gens upon intro, being a follower and admirer of their concepts, and having some perspective on the art&science theme.....this car represents a major dilemma, a new cadillac i am starting to hate. why? because it came before all the cool cadillacs that should have come already. this is not an inspiring design. remember the original evoq and how much promise surrounded that? the converj delivered on that, this does not.

the other problem i'm having is coming to terms with what kind of an audience this car will find. going with a traditional design rather than an appealing modernistic design could prove to be this car's downfall.

Edited January 13, 2010 by turbo200

[CSpec]

I don't know, the exterior looks oddly chunky, almost like they tried every trick in the book to make it look more svelte than it actually is. I agree with Walt about an eerie Mercury Sable resemblance. The interior does look quite nice, but I just don't see this cutting it against the new 7-series, and there's a brand new A8 coming this year too.

[gm4life]

I love Caddys plain and simple, always have, always will, but... If my father were alive today, a traditional Cadillac customer, he would say where is the V8? I am going to ask the same question, where is the V8? I could care less if it a Northstar or an LSX based small block but this car needs one. The styling isn't half bad, and looks much better in the show floor photos, than GM's typical &#036;h&#33;ty photography. I love the exterior styling, and front end, but it needs 340-350ish horse V8 or a turbo 3.6L, when I saw the 350hp I thought turbo 3.6L and got happy, then I found out it was a hybrid electric motor... If a hybrid is the only way this car is sold, without a turbo or V8 that will be a mistake, although the rest of the cars style and sweet interior might make up for it. I still say a small displacement V8 (under 5.0L) would be the way to go in this car, and bet you could slide one in, especially if it were an OHV based Chevy small-block. It is a flagship Cadillac and it needs a V8. Having said that the car has great styling and luxury and might do okay based on those facts alone. (Think MKS, RL, even A8) But to really call it a flagship it should have no less than a V8. My next question is how much will it cost?

Final thought if they manage to put a turbo 3.6L or small V8 in it this car will have no problems selling. How hard would it be to take a 3.6L Direct Injection V6 and add two cylinders and say 50 ponies?

Edited January 13, 2010 by gm4life

[Drew Dowdell]

GM4life, have you ever driven a hybrid? The electric motors add a lot of twist at the bottom end of the rpm range.

[gm4life]

GM4life, have you ever driven a hybrid? The electric motors add a lot of twist at the bottom end of the rpm range.

Yes once, a Prius. The it was the worst drive off my life. I understand the extra twist, but once the motor runs out of electric juice its gone, that is the problem. I am not someone here bitching about the design, because for a FWD/AWD car I like it, but needs a turbo 3.6L V6 or small V8 to be a true "flagship". Then again I believe the easiest way to make a car better is a bigger engine and more power.

Edited January 13, 2010 by gm4life

[Blake Noble]

I just realized the interior is just about the same color as tapioca pudding. Wonder if it'll make Pa Kettle hungry enough to gnaw the seats on the way down to the condo in Florida?

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Although the XTS is sized around the Merc S-Class, it won’t necessarily be the flagship of Cadillac new range.

Most immediately it will replace both the DTS and STS, but in pricing and positioning it still leaves room above for a super-luxury Cadillac saloon in the mould of the V16-powered Sixeen concept of a few years back.

“A real luxury flagship is still on our wishlist,” says Clay Dean, Cadillac design chief.

[§carlet §wordfish]

The interior looks like it's the best in its class (If I had to sit in a car, I'd choose the XTS over the S-Class, A8 and 7-Series). And I really love the grille. I still don't know what to think about the rest.

[bowtie_dude]

They will obviously put a V8 in it. It will be positioned to compete directly with the 7-series and S-Class. Both of which now have hybrid V6 "base" engines in addition to 8 and 12-cylinder engines. I doubt GM will put a V12 in it, simply because GM has no V12, but a HO supercharged DOHC V8 is likely, IMO.

[Intrepidation]

I wonder if EPII can fit a V8? If there is to be a V8 it will not be a DOHC. GM doesn't have one and won't spend the money to build a DOHC V8 just for this car, especially with the LS V8 easily able to put out 600 horsepower.

[ocnblu]

I am just not ready to buy this whole "electrification of the automobile" mumbo jumbo.

[Robert Hall]

I am just not ready to buy this whole "electrification of the automobile" mumbo jumbo.

Well, whether you 'buy it' or not, things certainly seem to be moving that way....

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

What Car and Driver had to say about XTS.

[SAmadei]

What Car and Driver had to say about XTS.

C&D have become such wienies. Worse than MT.

The ZTS talk makes me ill... and watching the video, more so.

The production car won't be so wide or aggressive. Great... Zzzzzz.