Remember the old "good" GM days?

[ocnblu]

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[balthazar]

1985: shudder. {...waits patiently for thread entitled 'Remember the old "GREAT" GM days?'...}

[A Horse With No Name]

This advert is just so much fail. Can't seem to get the back skirt on the female figure skater to fly up so I can check out her hindquarters...

Oh, I was supposed to be looking at the CAR.

I'm kinda with Balthazar, good old GM days for me was growing up with a 65 Impala SS on both sides of me...neighbors to the left had a Yellow two door hardtop with a 327 and a 4 speed and the neighbors to the right had a daughter with a boyfriend with an aqua/turquoise 396 car.

Bonnevilles, GTO's, LeMans, 67, 68, 69 Camaro...the cars of the 50's...these are the cars of my youth.

And that figure skater is making me remember the girl next door...watching her wash the 65 in that white bikini is also in my boyhood memories.

Chris

[FAPTurbo]

If that is what constitutes 'good' then the GM's of today are fanf*ckintabulous.

[caddycruiser]

If that is what constitutes 'good' then the GM's of today are fanf*ckintabulous.

I hate to agree...but yes...

The G-bodies were cool cars, but cool at a bad time in GM. They certainly were nothing world class in terms of build quality or powertrain...but if they had been, hmm, then maybe something. For the era and vs. the competitor's, they still stood out. And there's a metric ton of them 20 years later, which says something.

Not the best of old GM, but better than a lot & continue to make memories--I'll say that.

[ocnblu]

Well I was hoping to have folks post vids of good memories of GM cars of the 80's. The Cutlass G-body was certainly a success story for them, and deservedly so, imo, in the market realities of those days. I know the 80's didn't burn as bright as the 60's for GM, but there were still a few notables we could post. Other G-bodies (305 4-speed Malibu coupe? Monte SS? 442?), a few B-bodies (Delta 88 Holiday coupe with buckets, console and FE-3 suspension, anyone?), some F-bods (the IROC era), come on, no one has anything?

I remember being so excited when the 1983 Camaro L69 305 came out, with 190 hp, to counter Ford's Holley-equipped 5.0 HO in the Mustang and Capri (Ford's effort to keep their older ponys relevant, they blew away the '82 Camaro and Firebird in a drag race). It replaced Chevy and Pontiac's weak 165 hp CrossFire Injected 305 as the top engine offering in the gorgeous new-for-'82 F-bodies, and it meant to me, a kid just out of high school and a GM Lover, that GM wasn't going to lay down and let the competition beat them.

There was a bit of life left in GM in the 80's, for enthusiasts with diminished expectations. We were happy to get what we could.

Edited January 1, 2010 by ocnblu

[A Horse With No Name]

Ocnblu...I think you've hit a soft, sad spot for me.

One of my fav. GM cars was the 78 Cutlass that I drove in College, dated my wife in that car. We drove that thing partway acrossCanada on a trip together while we were dating...LOTS of very good memories with that car. Since it was comfortable and reliable it was a great road trip car...load it up with the GF (now wife) and friends, and go to someones home for the weekend...or load it up (the cutty, not my GF) with guys and take it to a football game or out to shoot some basketball.

Great car, great memories.

VERY positive memoires of my years as an SCCA flagger watching the third gen Camaro's in SCCA A sedan, and I've seen the 89-90 C4 Corvette Challenge cars raced during vintage races at Mid Ohio. I think THAT car coming at me at 145 MPH while I was working a corner and wearing white re-ignited my love of the Corvette.

[A Horse With No Name]

Still love watching the C4 Corvettes as Corvette Challenge cars, SCCA autocross cars, etc.

Local guy by the name of Beerman (yes, his real last name) has a C4 that's pretty fast at the local SCCA autocrosses.

Axoid posts here once in awhile...and riding in his third gen would convert even balthazar to a little 80's GM love. That thing is wicked fast and he can drive!

Still enjoy the third gen Camaro's in NASA Mutang-Camaro Challenge races, and NASA American Iron. Ocnblu, Caddycruiser talked about these cars being around 20 and 25 years later...to me it is impressive that they are racing 25 years later.

Buick Grand National ranks with the first gen RX-7, 911, et al as one of my fav cars of the era. Just freakin badass, in every sense of the word.

The GM GN makes a great car for those of us who are older who don't want to fool with a tempermental 60's car and just want to enjoy a really reliable, fast, unique GM product. Local guy traded a 67 GTO in at Arena Motors (same people who bought my 71 chevelle when I sold it). Got a Grand National...still has it...as far as I know. Enjoyable in a way to him that the 67 was not.

[A Horse With No Name]

One of my fav. GM cars of the era-Olds Calais Quad 4 ! Fast, cool little car. Local Junkyard has one that I was thinking about trying to put back on the road but she's a little far gone for that...but black on black...hmmm...she had to be quite a little car back in her day...

But to me this era marks a downturn in GM. GM never put the development money into the G body midsized cars that they should have...every damned car owning household on my block back in the 70's and 80's seemed to own a Cutty like that at one time or another. And GM left the poor cutty on the vine to rot and die.

So even though I love that era Cutty, GM cars from that era, and the thought of buying a grand national...that era also represents to me the decline of the car company I in some ways love the most. Yes, I own a Miata, and talk about GTI's and so forth...but most of my cars have been GM and have been damned good cars.

And while I think the new Cruze looks great...and while I want to own another GM car...and while i think the Volt is a kick ass product...part of me can't get excited about where GM has finally ended up through all of this. Even though I am the king of loving FWD sport compacts on this board...I still love the old V8 RWD stuff.

That GM let it rot on the vine and die is kind of bitter and while not unforgiveable...still causes me emotional pain 25 years later.

Hope you understand...don't know if you will or not. Anyways, 'blu...if your still reading...thanks for hanging with me!

Chris

[caddycruiser]

Good point, ocnblu

Bad times, but these were good IMHO, for the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuqEyGHiq6g

Edited January 1, 2010 by caddycruiser

[caddycruiser]

I miss Oldsmobile, just like Pontiac. Ahh...

Maybe not as legendary as the G-bodies, but most are still around & they were the good of the 90's. Questionable marketing, but still cool cars!

Not the oldest, but still old GM...this was actually pretty damn good Pontiac marketing & gave the modern Pontiac "feel" well...I wanted one from the ad...

More than I would or still ever would "want" a Chevy from an ad, especially if you compared an Impala of the time...cars or marketing...both so vital to GM then & now.

Edited January 1, 2010 by caddycruiser

[balthazar]

>>"riding in his third gen would convert even balthazar to a little 80's GM love"<<

It's not necc the decade it was built in that determines what it is able to lay down on the road, esp when talking about a prepped car. I appreciate performance as much as anyone, regardless of what it comes out of... but that's not likely to make me show any more love for the actual car ... when the same performance can be wrung out of just about anything. But I hear you...

-- -- -- -- --

The 3 commercials above are quite intersting & effective, esp like the Intrique one, but the GXP is good, too. Yet all I ever read opinion of, is, 'GM marketing is the worst in the world and has been for all time'.

[Camino LS6]

Well, it was 1987 when I bought my first new car and the Chevy/Buick showroom at the dealer was a candy store!

Irocs, both hard and soft top were all over, There was one of the very rare '86 MCSS aerocoupes on a raised dias, an all white El CaminoSS, vettes, T-types, Grand Nationals, and behind a velvet rope - a GNX.

By the time I signed the papers on my new black El Camino SS, my head was spinning and my neck sore from gawking.

By '88 it was mostly gone, replaced by a sea of awful FWD boredom.

GM still had some great cars in the 80s, but they let them rot on the vine. All of them, including my Camino, could have been so much more than they were.

Alas, GM was only spending money on the junk at that time.

[A Horse With No Name]

GNX was cool for the day

[Robert Hall]

'86 is when I got my driver's license, '87 when I got my Mustang GT. The mid-to-late '80s still resonates w/ me, esp. the last of the RWD G-bodies, before GM completely went to all-bad FWD models.

[A Horse With No Name]

{IMH}

{IMH}

Always liked kinda the fox body ragtops of the era...

Edited January 1, 2010 by 66Stang

[A Horse With No Name]

Another Fox of the era...

[A Horse With No Name]

But nothing beats the 1960's Mustangs for me...

[Camino LS6]

That Mustang vert, in those exact colors, was ubiquitous back then - I must have seen literally hundreds just like it.

[A Horse With No Name]

Still like stang ragtops...but yeah...that car, that color, was everywhere!

[Intrepidation]

If that is what constitutes 'good' then the GM's of today are fanf*ckintabulous.

This.

You have to go about 2 decades or so back to find the "good old days". That goes for basically every automaker.

[caddycruiser]

Since I went newer old before, now this. We've all seen it many times I think, but still.

Wow, compare Buick then with things like this and even thinking about playing "Bad to the Bone" in a commercial, with a new Lacrosse beating the pants off & setting on fire a competing Lexus...quiet tuned, voluptuous, FWD/AWD, and then some. Hmmm...wonder what they'll be able to do to keep this image but make it "cool!" for the Regal GS...

[ocnblu]

EFFING FANTASTIC, caddycruiser! GM lost their balls somewhere along the line. Why should they apologize? They need to keep rollin'. Will we see the tiniest hint of swagger when the new Regal GS is unveiled? Alas... no coupe prolly means no swagger. SIGH.

Edited January 1, 2010 by ocnblu

[balthazar]

Wow- Buick actually had mealy-mouthed George do the voice-over, too.

I see NO REASON whatsoever that this sort of 'apple cart upturn' shouldn't happen again.

F Chevy.

[caddycruiser]

Wow- Buick actually had mealy-mouthed George do the voice-over, too.

I see NO REASON whatsoever that this sort of 'apple cart upturn' shouldn't happen again.

F Chevy.

Agreed. I actually like where Buick is now with the Lacrosse & Enclave, marketing and otherwise. Well, mostly. But when something like the GS comes around...rather than just be "that one" only magazines know about & no one else cares, marketing and ballsy marketing better be cool. But also still Buick.

"Bad to the bone..." with a, hmm, car like the 80's Regal is not Buick and it shouldn't be, but there's a way to get that KIND of message across in a modern way...hope they figure out how!

And again...the car or otherwise...there were parts of that 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix commercial that just were good for Pontiac...a bit abstract, but you wanted one...or I did. Since that point, Pontiac just lost all marketing, etc. and it showed painfully through this past year.

[Intrepidation]

I really like the LeSabre T-Type like what American_Revolution has.

[A Horse With No Name]

caddycruiser-THANKS for posting that...one of my fav. GM cars!

[Blake Noble]

In the end, I wound up loathing both G-Bodies I had, but they still hold a special place in my heart, especially my old Monte SS. I wish that car was in better shape mechanically; the Computer Command Control system and e-Quadrajet ruins these cars if they aren't removed and start to break down. I wish my Regal was an actual T-Type or Grand National, maybe then I wouldn't have been so eager to unload it. After the Rocket 350 in it threw a rod, that car really lost its hold on me fast. After that it became just another Grand National clone with a tired 307 that could only hold 60 on the Interstate and a screwed up interior.

Edited January 2, 2010 by whiteknight

[caddycruiser]

In the end, I wound up loathing both G-Bodies I had, but they still hold a special place in my heart, especially my old Monte SS. I wish that car was in better shape mechanically; the Computer Command Control system and e-Quadrajet ruins these cars if they aren't removed and start to break down. I wish my Regal was an actual T-Type or Grand National, maybe then I wouldn't have been so eager to unload it. After the Rocket 350 in it threw a rod, that car really lost its hold on me fast. After that it became just another Grand National clone with a tired 307 that could only hold 60 on the Interstate and a screwed up interior.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of my brother's '86 Regal LTD...but it looks cool. Otherwise it continues to amaze me how awful the Olds 307 in it is, looking like Medusa underhood and barely putting out the power of a modern 4-cyl on top of burning oil galore at 80k miles. That, and I know this is why people love them, but the seats, dash, and general ride/feel on the road feel like a car from the 60's. Alas, 24 years after his was built, it's still together and still going daily and getting positive attention & comments along the way. They were legendary in that way & still have the cool presence, when not trashed.

[Blake Noble]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of my brother's '86 Regal LTD...but it looks cool. Otherwise it continues to amaze me how awful the Olds 307 in it is, looking like Medusa underhood and barely putting out the power of a modern 4-cyl on top of burning oil galore at 80k miles. That, and I know this is why people love them, but the seats, dash, and general ride/feel on the road feel like a car from the 60's. Alas, 24 years after his was built, it's still together and still going daily and getting positive attention & comments along the way. They were legendary in that way & still have the cool presence, when not trashed.

The 307 is by no means great. It's a low-compression smogger V8 that you can't even milk an extra 10 horsepower out of with better manifolds, a higher CFM carburetor, and all of the emissions junk removed.

Although the 3.73s in my Regal really helped what sort of dead-stop acceleration I could get out of the 307 - it would even occasionally chirp the tires if you slammed your foot in the pedal and, if you were really really lucky, kind of chirp the tires again on the gear change to second - but it would run out of steam as soon as you hit 60 mph. Driving it to Lexington on the Interstate the day I delivered and sold it wasn't a painful experience, but a grueling one. The engine had to be holding 4,500 to 5,000 revs the whole way there to keep the car at a constant 60. Olds engines, especially the 260 and 307, do not like to be kept at that rev range very long repeatedly. Usually the oil pump can't keep oil flowing where it needs to be and lifters, etc., start to wear out fast. It doesn't take too long for something to eventually fail catastrophically.

I hated the floaty ride that Buick had. It's just like the road test where Jeremy Clarkson drives an early '80s Town Car; you could act like a baboon with the wheel and the car would still go in a straight line while it tossed you from port to starboard inside. The body roll is awful.

Edited January 2, 2010 by whiteknight

[caddycruiser]

whiteknight...Yes, in every way. Especially the floaty, but my brother loves it, and that's all that matters. Well, engine aside. That thing is just a disgrace, and unbelievable such a low power carb'd powerplant was still being used into the 90's. But alas

Still legendary. Had an 80's black Regal try to race me a few weeks back, and although I won, it was very cool hearing that turbo squawk as he punched it. Heehee

[Camino LS6]

Just don't make the mistake of judging the G body by the tired survivors you encounter today.

Trust me, when they were new it was a different story. Even those beaten examples can be refreshed easily.

[Blake Noble]

I'll never forget it, on the Interstate I got passed by a - ready for this? - what appeared to be a rusty '79 Honda Civic.

That was the final nail in the coffin for the Regal.

Oh, and with the 307, any incline of even the slightest degree becomes your worst enemy.

[Robert Hall]

Just don't make the mistake of judging the G body by the tired survivors you encounter today.

Exactly. You can't expect $2k beaters to drive as nicely as a new car (or as nicely as a well-maintained, clean survivor).

Edited January 2, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

What transmission did you have in the Regal WK? My '85 Toronado, while no speed demon, didn't have trouble holding 60 nor would it be turning that kind of RPM to do it. I had a 4-speed auto with overdrive.

[Camino LS6]

I'll never forget it, on the Interstate I got passed by a - ready for this? - what appeared to be a rusty '79 Honda Civic.

That was the final nail in the coffin for the Regal.

Oh, and with the 307, any incline of even the slightest degree becomes your worst enemy.

There were some things that were very wrong with that car, starting with the 3.73 rear. I suspect the trans had some issues as well - even a tired 307 should do much better than you describe.

[Blake Noble]

Just don't make the mistake of judging the G body by the tired survivors you encounter today.

Trust me, when they were new it was a different story. Even those beaten examples can be refreshed easily.

They can be brought up to speed easily, but not as inexpensively as someone might think. To remove the Computer Command Control system and that nasty e-Quadrajet these cars had, you're looking to spend $1,500 easily on a new carburetor, new intake manifold ... the list isn't long, but it adds up quickly in price. You just about have to remove them in order for the car to run like new again.

Parts cars are few and far between. You have to travel to a junkyard literally in Podunk Central to find more than one decent G-Body parts car and don't count on finding any Monte SSs or Regals. About 9 times out of 10 you'll mostly find Monte CLs/LSs and Cutlasses. I think I might have ran across one El Camino, one Malibu sedan and one wagon, and one Grand Prix while hunting for parts before. A Le Mans or Grand Am parts car? Forget about it.

Even still, the degree of commonality between each division's respective G-Body car is extremely slim. You can exchange cigarette lighters, a/c control panels, and lower door panels, but not instrument clusters or IP bezels. You basically have to order reproduction parts and they are not cheap compared to buying repro parts for their A-Body predecessors. Not a lot of folks are restoring these cars right now.

[Blake Noble]

What transmission did you have in the Regal WK? My '85 Toronado, while no speed demon, didn't have trouble holding 60 nor would it be turning that kind of RPM to do it. I had a 4-speed auto with overdrive.

Sounds like you had a TH200-4R, which was the better transmission for these low displacement V8s. I had a TH350-R three-speed automatic without overdrive.

There were some things that were very wrong with that car, starting with the 3.73 rear. I suspect the trans had some issues as well - even a tired 307 should do much better than you describe.

The previous owner put the 3.73s in the car. After he pulled the old 3.8 V6, he dropped in a 383 Stroker. I don't know if someone could easily access it, but there is an old picture of my car on Photobucket with the 383 sitting outside of the car, ready to be dropped in. If I had to venture a guess, I would say he had intentions of making the car a street/strip project. He pulled the 383 and swapped it out for a 350 Rocket shortly before he traded the car to me. I have no clue why. I do know now the Rocket 350 was already starting to go bad when he traded it to me. He dumped a ton of Lucas in the engine so that I couldn't hear the tick that would eventually become a knocking rod.

Edited January 2, 2010 by whiteknight

[Camino LS6]

Interesting.

My experience has been just the opposite with the 73-77 cars being much harder to find parts for. At least there is aftermarket support for the Gs, there is virtually none for the Colonnades. Of course, the 64-72 A body cars are easiest of all.

At least for El Caminos, lots of G-body stuff is widely available (I'm always sifting through it to get 73-77 stuff).

[Camino LS6]

A 700R4 would have solved the highway problem.

[Blake Noble]

Did the '90 year model 307 use the 700-R4? If so, that would mean GM made 700-R4s with the B-O-P bolt pattern. If not, the only upgrade you could make from the TH350 would be a TH200-R4

[Camino LS6]

Did the '90 year model 307 use the 700-R4? If so, that would mean GM made 700-R4s with the B-O-P bolt pattern. If not, the only upgrade you could make from the TH350 would be a TH200-R4

Not sure about that, but the 200R4 would fix it as well.

At that point though, a Chevy V8 swap starts to look like the better idea.

At any rate, a TH350 and 3.73 gears were the wrong answer for the 307.

With that said, a bit of this is perceptive. I spent years driving 3spd. autos, and still have a hard time accepting the RPMs being so high again after having 4spd.OD autos in between.

It's hard to go back.

[Blake Noble]

Not sure about that, but the 200R4 would fix it as well.

The fact I went with another TH350 wasn't really due to the fact that I know they're a sturdy built transmission, but because the cost of the 307 was $350 with or without the transmission. The transmission was essentially free.

An idea I've had in the back on my mind: if I buy an automatic T/A, a 200-R4 swap could be on the future upgrade list, although I can't quite remember if a 200-R4 could handle the torque of a 403 or 400.

At that point though, a Chevy V8 swap starts to look like the better idea.

At any rate, a TH350 and 3.73 gears were the wrong answer for the 307.

Hindsight is always 20/20, and I think a 307 was the all-around wrong engine to buy in the first place. I should have tried to hunt down a Buick 350, although I'm not much familiar with them as I am a Pontiac, Olds, or Chevrolet small-block.

With that said, a bit of this is perceptive. I spent years driving 3spd. autos, and still have a hard time accepting the RPMs being so high again after having 4spd.OD autos in between.

It's hard to go back.

At first it really does take some getting used to, but as long as you trust and know the car well, it becomes less of an issue.

In the end, the Regal really wasn't much a daily driver. I couldn't trust it, which is really what pushed me to sell it.

[Camino LS6]

You can have a 200R4 built to handle greater power.

Should I be so lucky as to get back to my Camino project someday, I will have to decide which auto to use. Likely it will be a beefed-up 700R4.

There is a slight chance that a manual conversion could take place.

[balthazar]

Back when I was in the Buick GS/GN club, I remember frequent mention of the 700R-4, so it must've been available with a BOP pattern. In fact, it would be quite extrodinary in the era of corporate powertrains, than any trans had restricted availability.

700R-4 can be built to handle over 1000 HP IIRC (as long as you can afford it).

Back when I was spec'ing my B-59, I was leaning toward a 700R-4, but was told it was borderline WRT the TRQ. I was steering toward the 4L80-E, but that was a $5K set-up, built. So it'a back to a BOP THM400 ('70 Buick). Calculator says 2500 RPMs at 60- not bad for a 3-spd.

[Cory Wolfe]

Does this count?

"It's so sporty!"

[ocnblu]

Aww... cute. Back then, it wasn't a bad car. And those later ones with the half-hidden headlights and V6 power were pretty cool, along with their Z24 brothers. Another case of being left to rot on the vine. I blame the J-cars' lack of updates on the ill-conceived Saturn project, personally.

[caddycruiser]

A Sunbird! My babysitter had one of those...light blue...coupe...mid/late 80's...then they traded it for a silver '92 Grand Am, the first of the new design. Either car, they enjoyed. I remember "smelling" the new '92 Grand Am, hah, my first new car experience as a small child

How, again, did they go from SunBIRD to SunFIRE...? Was there a valid reason for that at the time? The fact that there was a model year gap?

[ocnblu]

Either way, I think they were hoping a little bit of the Firebird magic rubbed off onto the smaller car for ppl on a budget. sunFIRE and sunBIRD, ha.

[A Horse With No Name]

Aww... cute. Back then, it wasn't a bad car. And those later ones with the half-hidden headlights and V6 power were pretty cool, along with their Z24 brothers. Another case of being left to rot on the vine. I blame the J-cars' lack of updates on the ill-conceived Saturn project, personally.

The 80's J cars were cool!

One of my fav. cars was an 85 chev Cavalier 5 speed coupe...NEAT little car...and probably why I'm so addicted to the idea of sport compacts now.

GM spoiled me with that car!

Chris