Cadillac XTS concept hint to be at NAIAS

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac XTS concept hint

to be at NAIAS

Cadillac ZTS rendering by our own Andrew Currie

December 7th, 2009

by Drew Dowdell

Sometimes you find hints to the future right in front of your face. On the TellGM website (formerly Tell Fritz), Bryan Nesbitt, General Manager of Cadillac answers a question regarding the upcoming Cadillac XTS sedan. While Mr. Nesbitt won't confirm nor deny the platform the XTS will be riding on, he does say that the concept car will be shown at the upcoming North American International Auto Show and that it should reveal a very strong hint as to the design direction of the production vehicle.

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[PONTIAC06]

Excited to see this and find out if all the controversy around it will have been worthless speculation...

[Intrepidation]

If it looked like my chop I'd save my pennies for one.

[PONTIAC06]

If it looked like my chop I'd save my pennies for one.

me too...ha ha

[Blake Noble]

No word on what the drive wheels are? I'm betting that it's front-drive and they said that because they've misplaced their flame-retardant suits.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm guessing AWD standard

[smk4565]

While I always look forward to NAIAS to see the new models and concepts, I am not going to get my hopes up for the XTS. I'm expecting a Lincoln MKS with vertical headlamps. Unless power is sent to the rear wheels, the XTS will be no more interesting than the Volvo S80 or Acura RL.

[Croc]

While I always look forward to NAIAS to see the new models and concepts, I am not going to get my hopes up for the XTS. I'm expecting a Lincoln MKS with vertical headlamps. Unless power is sent to the rear wheels, the XTS will be no more interesting than the Volvo S80 or Acura RL.

Can't disagree with you here. Even Ford has gotten the memo about RWD with the rumored plans for the next-gen Taurus and MKS. Of course, if the Caprice were to make it Stateside as is being speculated, I'm sure Cadillac will have a variant.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Croc

[Drew Dowdell]

PCS has been dropping LOTS of hints about Zeta making a grand return to N/A

[Croc]

PCS has been dropping LOTS of hints about Zeta making a grand return to N/A

Fer sher; that's exactly what I was implicitly referencing.

[smk4565]

Zeta would be fine for Chevy but not Cadillac. Sigma (which will need upgraded/replaced soon) has midsize covered, so Zeta would be only be useful for a large car. Cadillac will need more than the Camaro platform to go up against the big German sedans and the XJ. I think of it like this, the G8 and Camaro are below the CTS, why pay $20-30,000 more than a CTS for a car on a lesser platform.

Currently, Cadillac lacks the resources and knowledge to challenge the ultra sedans, that is why I am not at all excited about the XTS.

Edited December 9, 2009 by smk4565

[pow]

Zeta would be fine for Chevy but not Cadillac. Sigma (which will need upgraded/replaced soon) has midsize covered, so Zeta would be only be useful for a large car. Cadillac will need more than the Camaro platform to go up against the big German sedans and the XJ. I think of it like this, the G8 and Camaro are below the CTS, why pay $20-30,000 more than a CTS for a car on a lesser platform.

Currently, Cadillac lacks the resources and knowledge to challenge the ultra sedans, that is why I am not at all excited about the XTS.

I wonder if they can adapt Sigma technology to Zeta - stuff like more aluminum components and double-wishbones instead of struts up front.

[Lamar]

I wonder if they can adapt Sigma technology to Zeta - stuff like more aluminum components and double-wishbones instead of struts up front.

And AWD capability if it's not there.

[Blake Noble]

I wonder if they can adapt Sigma technology to Zeta - stuff like more aluminum components and double-wishbones instead of struts up front.

Rumors of such a platform were being discussed ages ago.

[Croc]

Zeta would be fine for Chevy but not Cadillac. Sigma (which will need upgraded/replaced soon) has midsize covered, so Zeta would be only be useful for a large car. Cadillac will need more than the Camaro platform to go up against the big German sedans and the XJ. I think of it like this, the G8 and Camaro are below the CTS, why pay $20-30,000 more than a CTS for a car on a lesser platform.

Currently, Cadillac lacks the resources and knowledge to challenge the ultra sedans, that is why I am not at all excited about the XTS.

Huh? You don't make any sense. Zeta, if used in a Cadillac vehicle, would be upgraded. Look at how frequently GM updates or modifies its other platforms--you're telling me Zeta "can't" be? Man, you post one insightful post, then follow it up with tripe like this...one step forward, twenty steps backward...you are truly a GM fan

[Camino LS6]

Huh? You don't make any sense. Zeta, if used in a Cadillac vehicle, would be upgraded. Look at how frequently GM updates or modifies its other platforms--you're telling me Zeta "can't" be? Man, you post one insightful post, then follow it up with tripe like this...one step forward, twenty steps backward...you are truly a GM fan

For once, Croc and I agree 100%.

Callling Zeta "lesser" because it is used for the Camaro is one of the most absurd statements I've ever read around here.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I for one cannot wait to see this car. Big long Cadillacs are my favorite kind of cars bar none.

The sad thing is that even though this baby is going to be a quantum leap over the DTS in terms of quality and refinement, it won't have a V8 or a Bench Seat- and I think that's sad. It's like the end of an era at Cadillac that started I'd say in 1949, but if it has to be I suppose it has to be, mainly because the world has changed (in my mind for the worse). These new Cadillacs are great cars but they aren't the ones that made me really love Cadillac, so all things being equal I'd still rather have a cherry Triple Black LT1 Fleetwood than anything they make today.

I bet you it'll look pretty good in black regardless of drive wheels but I'm hoping for Zeta or some sort of RWD because I think that Cadillac is getting to the point where the market may reject it if it doesn't at the very least offer AWD.

[Justin Bimmer]

Front bench seats = liability for automakers. Hard to protect somebody in the middle. Also, where is my ipod, key fob, cell phone, drink, etc etc supposed to go if there is a seat there?

[Croc]

Bench seats are awful. If you need to haul 5+ other people, get a minivan, wagon, SUV, or crossover.

[Drew Dowdell]

Zeta would be fine for Chevy but not Cadillac. Sigma (which will need upgraded/replaced soon) has midsize covered, so Zeta would be only be useful for a large car. Cadillac will need more than the Camaro platform to go up against the big German sedans and the XJ. I think of it like this, the G8 and Camaro are below the CTS, why pay $20-30,000 more than a CTS for a car on a lesser platform.

Currently, Cadillac lacks the resources and knowledge to challenge the ultra sedans, that is why I am not at all excited about the XTS.

<pwnage>

That Jaguar XF that you hump all the time must really SUCK then because it's on the dated DEW98 platform that the Mustang rides on... and the Thunderbird did, and the Lincoln LS.

<pwned>

[Lamar]

<pwnage>

That Jaguar XF that you hump all the time must really SUCK then because it's on the dated DEW98 platform that the Mustang rides on... and the Thunderbird did, and the Lincoln LS.

<pwned>

Mustang rides on D2C. Somewhat related but still very different.

Thunderbird and LS make your point, however.

[Camino LS6]

Mustang rides on D2C. Somewhat related but still very different.

Thunderbird and LS make your point, however.

If I'm reading that correctly, that means the Jag rides on an older version of the platform than the Mustang.

[Robert Hall]

If I'm reading that correctly, that means the Jag rides on an older version of the platform than the Mustang.

It's been updated for the XF which replaced the S-Type. Plus, the DEW98 had better suspension (the Mustang has Mac struts in front and a live rear axle). They cheapified the suspension for DC2.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[smk4565]

The XF platform was from the S-type but upgraded, and the suspension came from the XK. The next XF will be an all aluminum chassis.

Zeta's problem is it is too heavy. And does anyone think the CTS-V would be a better car if it was on the Zeta platform? A Zeta Cadillac would have to go against the aluminum/magnesium XJ, an all new 7-series that has 8 gears and a twin turbo V12, and the S-class which also has a twin turbo V12 and 45 years of rock solid reputation.

The hardware to build an S-class like sedan doesn't exist within GM. I wish it did, but it doesn't. Therefore the XTS will be a FWD/AWD Epsilon car with a 290 hp V6. We already have a FWD DTS with 290 hp, how is that working out? Acura had an AWD only, 300 hp V6 car in 04 or 05, and look at what a dud the RL has been, Cadillac doing the same thing six years later isn't going to work out any better. If you want to go after the 5-series, E-class or higher, you better send power to the rear wheels.

[z28luvr01]

I can't find the article, but Reuss has gone on record as saying that Zeta will go on a diet in its next iteration, most likely in time for the Commodore redo in '13. Not sure if this applies to the XTS, but know that the weight issues will be addressed.

I do agree with you that this car needs to be RWD, if only for prestige reasons. If GM can't resist the urge to make a large FWD car, Buick is a more natural home.

[Lamar]

The XF platform was from the S-type but upgraded, and the suspension came from the XK. The next XF will be an all aluminum chassis.

That's the point we're trying to make with the possibility of Zeta for a Cadillac. It will be a more updated version if it comes to pass.

Zeta's problem is it is too heavy. And does anyone think the CTS-V would be a better car if it was on the Zeta platform? A Zeta Cadillac would have to go against the aluminum/magnesium XJ, an all new 7-series that has 8 gears and a twin turbo V12, and the S-class which also has a twin turbo V12 and 45 years of rock solid reputation.

None of the cars you named is a total lightweight either, so where does Zeta's weight factor in? No one also mentioned moving CTS to Zeta... we're talking about the range topper.

The hardware to build an S-class like sedan doesn't exist within GM. I wish it did, but it doesn't. Therefore the XTS will be a FWD/AWD Epsilon car with a 290 hp V6. We already have a FWD DTS with 290 hp, how is that working out? Acura had an AWD only, 300 hp V6 car in 04 or 05, and look at what a dud the RL has been, Cadillac doing the same thing six years later isn't going to work out any better. If you want to go after the 5-series, E-class or higher, you better send power to the rear wheels.

You always conveniently forget about Audi...

[smk4565]

None of the cars you named is a total lightweight either, so where does Zeta's weight factor in? No one also mentioned moving CTS to Zeta... we're talking about the range topper.

You always conveniently forget about Audi...

The XJ is light for a full size v8 sedan. I know we are talking about a Zeta ranger topper, but shouldn't the range topper's platform be a notch or 2 better than the CTS's platform?

Audi's have longitudinally mounted engines so the weight balance on them is better than an awd Acura or Lincoln. My mom drives and Audi, they are nothing special. A BMW drives better. And the new A8 looks like an overweight A4, no match for the 7-series or XJ.

[Lamar]

The XJ is light for a full size v8 sedan. I know we are talking about a Zeta ranger topper, but shouldn't the range topper's platform be a notch or 2 better than the CTS's platform?

We have very limited experience with the platform over here in the States compared to the rest of the world. A quick Google search shows reviews of the Statesman (Zeta LWB) and that it drives quite well (engaging while still luxurious). Remember, the G8 was well documented as driving comparably with a 550i. By extension, the long platform should drive as well as a 7, which not many reviewers say drives that well anymore...

But that aside, you have to define for us what makes a platform "better." Lighter? Newer? Shinier? Self-repairing if you crash?

Audi's have longitudinally mounted engines so the weight balance on them is better than an awd Acura or Lincoln. My mom drives and Audi, they are nothing special. A BMW drives better. And the new A8 looks like an overweight A4, no match for the 7-series or XJ.

Longitudinally-mounted, yes, but still FWD before quattro. Like I said, BMW 7 Series has apparently lost something (and next year will be confused with the 2011 5 Series most likely). And the Jaguar, no matter how it looks, will still be a Jaguar and condemned to a bad reputation.

[smk4565]

And the Jaguar, no matter how it looks, will still be a Jaguar and condemned to a bad reputation.

Jaguar was just named #1 in JD Power sales satisfaction for 2009 (they were #1 in 2008 also). They were #1 or #2 in JD Power customer satisfaction for 2007, 2008 and 2009. Jaguar was also #1 in JD Power vehicle dependability for 2009, and 3rd place overall in Business Week's "customer service champs" list and 1st place for an automaker.

Jaguar is doing everything right at the moment, and has turned profitable. Plus they can sell cars in Europe, which Cadillac hasn't figured out how to do.

[Robert Hall]

Plus they can sell cars in Europe, which Cadillac hasn't figured out how to do.

Well, Jaguar is a European company, and (no surprise) they have been selling cars in Europe for decades. GM has been selling Cadillacs in Europe for less than a decade...

[regfootball]

yet you read long term tests on the new Jag in the buff books and they say it has more than its share of problems.

[Lamar]

Jaguar was just named #1 in JD Power sales satisfaction for 2009 (they were #1 in 2008 also). They were #1 or #2 in JD Power customer satisfaction for 2007, 2008 and 2009. Jaguar was also #1 in JD Power vehicle dependability for 2009, and 3rd place overall in Business Week's "customer service champs" list and 1st place for an automaker.

Jaguar is doing everything right at the moment, and has turned profitable. Plus they can sell cars in Europe, which Cadillac hasn't figured out how to do.

Jaguar...

... is...

... still...

JAGUAR!!!!!!!!!!!

(the first three are external links)

Edited December 11, 2009 by Lamar

[Lamar]

However, finally knowing what the configuration of this car will be is one of the reasons I look forward to the year 2010.

I still hope GM does right by Cadillac and doesn't leave us with an angular Buick.

RWD and 8 cylinders!

[Blake Noble]

Jaguar was just named #1 in JD Power sales satisfaction for 2009 (they were #1 in 2008 also). They were #1 or #2 in JD Power customer satisfaction for 2007, 2008 and 2009. Jaguar was also #1 in JD Power vehicle dependability for 2009, and 3rd place overall in Business Week's "customer service champs" list and 1st place for an automaker.

Jaguar is doing everything right at the moment, and has turned profitable. Plus they can sell cars in Europe, which Cadillac hasn't figured out how to do.

I hereby dub thee "Cat Humper."

Jaguar is not the definition of a perfect luxury car. While, yes, I will agree Jag builds attractively designed cars, they are far from perfect and have their flaws too.

Edited December 11, 2009 by whiteknight

[ZL-1]

However, finally knowing what the configuration of this car will be is one of the reasons I look forward to the year 2010.

Me too, although my gut feeling tells me it will be FWD/AWD until a proper RWD car comes along. Hope I'm wrong.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Longitudinally-mounted, yes, but still FWD before quattro. Like I said, BMW 7 Series has apparently lost something (and next year will be confused with the 2011 5 Series most likely). And the Jaguar, no matter how it looks, will still be a Jaguar and condemned to a bad reputation.

The A8 isn't at the top of the class though. Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus are. It all depends what Cadillac is aiming for.

[Lamar]

The A8 isn't at the top of the class though. Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus are. It all depends what Cadillac is aiming for.

A8 may not be at the top of the class, but at least it's IN the class and a viable option. And to which class do you refer? The sales king class or the prestige class? If it's the latter, believe it or not I'd substitute Maserati for Lexus.

My hopes are that Cadillac aim once again to be at least in the class and worthy of consideration... without compromising anything and without copying anything else. If they can somehow pull off being king of the hill again, all the better.

[regfootball]

cadillac needs to duplicate the chassis of the S class. the S class is the target for everything except price. the 7 series is bloated and ugly. the A8 is a misfit. the jaguar is nice but the interior is strange. other makes are wannabees. what did princess diana die in? an S class. the only other thing caddy could aspire to be a version of is rolls or bentley.

the S class is THE target.

and really when it comes down to it, the thing that makes the S class what it is is impeccable interior luxury. has anyone ever sat in one recently? the eerie quiet. the amazing material and finish quality. the room and space. the SOUND of the door when it closes. and then imagine how it drives.

the genesis is a korean sort of knockoff attempt at duplicating some of that and they have a ways to go. The CTS is a nice job at aspirational luxury. BUt its not hard core luxury like the S Class. Perhaps the maserati is another one could consider a real luxury ride.

cadillac needs to keep the price down though to move in volume and still draw its customary older buyers.

Any caddy S class competitor should carry a DOHC v8 option with 6-8 speed tranny and AWD option (or sheet just make it standard) as well. Perhaps it should even have a v12 option although a twin turbo v8 would work just as well.

[Robert Hall]

A8 may not be at the top of the class, but at least it's IN the class and a viable option. And to which class do you refer? The sales king class or the prestige class? If it's the latter, believe it or not I'd substitute Maserati for Lexus.

My hopes are that Cadillac aim once again to be at least in the class and worthy of consideration... without compromising anything and without copying anything else. If they can somehow pull off being king of the hill again, all the better.

Just my $0.10 worth:

The way I look at the NA international full size luxury segment is that there are 6 players--Merc S class (and CLS?), BMW 7 series, Audi A8, Lexus LS, Jaguar XJ, and Maserati Quattroporte. Sedans like the Panamera, Rapide, Bentley Contental, RR, etc are in higher/different stratums (perfomance luxury and ultra luxury), I think.

The Germans and Lexus are all very high tech, and the Germans have more of an emphasis on driving characteristics while the Lexus is more cushy and isolated. Probably my favorite in the group is the Quattroporte--the Italians have a unique style and are less cold and serious than the Germans. Jaguar seems to be trying to balance both approaches w/ the new XJ--serious and technical yet also stylish and flavorful.

Agreed on the S-class being the standard of the group, though. It's my favorite of the Germans.

The question for a Cadillac XTS is this market its target market, or will the Lincoln MKS and Chrysler 300C be more appropriately the target for the XTS?

Edited December 11, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[regfootball]

i forgot the Lexus, its easy to forget. However, as a luxury device, the Lexus is indeed top tier. It just has no emotion.

I think the reason Porsche did the Panamera was to elevate the status of an aspirational one from Luxury + sport to Sport + luxury. To be honest, I don't think you will see folks getting chauffered in the Panamera. THose folks will be driving it.

Caddy needs to have a good enough entry here to be included with those cars you mentioned and have it seem legit. They already pulled off comparison with the G8 to the BMW and the corvette plays that role all the time. SO GM CAN DO IT!....my biggest fear is that they ALWAYS SKIMP IN INTERIOR QUALITY and this is the prime selling point of the S Class. If you think of the CTS interior its not even half way to where it should be in an S Class, and the CTS interior is a definite step in the right direction. THe LaCrosse interior however still has big issues on plastics and leather quality, fit and finish and panel gaps and assembly. Also textures and gloss all over. GM STILL MAKES SHINY GLOSSY SLOPPY INTERIORS!

[CaddyXLR-V]

A8 may not be at the top of the class, but at least it's IN the class and a viable option. And to which class do you refer? The sales king class or the prestige class? If it's the latter, believe it or not I'd substitute Maserati for Lexus.

My hopes are that Cadillac aim once again to be at least in the class and worthy of consideration... without compromising anything and without copying anything else. If they can somehow pull off being king of the hill again, all the better.

Well the Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes all outsell the A8 and XJ I believe, and they also have more prestige. I think it would be a mistake for Cadillac to take the Audi approach for their flagship, yet the ATS and CTS are taking the BMW/Mercedes/Lexus(with exception to the ES, which is going away anyway) approach. Also, it works for Audi, because from their A3 to their A8 they take a similar approach. They don't have any RWD only cars.

[Robert Hall]

...yet the ATS and CTS are taking the BMW/Mercedes/Lexus(with exception to the ES, which is going away anyway)

Hadn't heard anything about this..the ES is their biggest seller as far as cars, I thought. It and the Avalon are Toyota's Buicks, sort of.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Hadn't heard anything about this..the ES is their biggest seller as far as cars, I thought. It and the Avalon are Toyota's Buicks, sort of.

I read somewhere that it is getting a refresh, then at the end of that cycle around 2013/2014 it would be discontinued.

[pow]

cadillac needs to duplicate the chassis of the S class. the S class is the target for everything except price. the 7 series is bloated and ugly. the A8 is a misfit. the jaguar is nice but the interior is strange. other makes are wannabees. what did princess diana die in? an S class. the only other thing caddy could aspire to be a version of is rolls or bentley.

the S class is THE target.

and really when it comes down to it, the thing that makes the S class what it is is impeccable interior luxury. has anyone ever sat in one recently? the eerie quiet. the amazing material and finish quality. the room and space. the SOUND of the door when it closes. and then imagine how it drives.

the genesis is a korean sort of knockoff attempt at duplicating some of that and they have a ways to go. The CTS is a nice job at aspirational luxury. BUt its not hard core luxury like the S Class. Perhaps the maserati is another one could consider a real luxury ride.

cadillac needs to keep the price down though to move in volume and still draw its customary older buyers.

Any caddy S class competitor should carry a DOHC v8 option with 6-8 speed tranny and AWD option (or sheet just make it standard) as well. Perhaps it should even have a v12 option although a twin turbo v8 would work just as well.

Bingo. The S-class is a global institution. There's no point for Cadillac to copy the same formula and spend millions in engineering, only to fail. Instead, they should go for shock and awe, like Bentley and Rolls do, but so that there's actual buyers, charge regular luxury car money (<$100K). The Bentley Arnage in most respects is a POS, overweight with a pushrod engine and crappy handling. But it has tons of nice wood, leather, and chrome and high-quality paint, and it gets respect.

In many ways, the Escalade is Cadillac's S-class competitor. Now imagine an Escalade sedan...

[pow]

IMO, if they built THIS on GMT900 and charged $85K for it... people would buy it, even if it handles like truck. It won't matter, because it looks amazing. And there's already a hybrid powertrain designed for it.

How hard can it be? Wasn't the SSR based on GMT360?

[Robert Hall]

IMO, if they built THIS on GMT900 and charged $85K for it... people would buy it, even if it handles like truck. It won't matter, because it looks amazing. And there's already a hybrid powertrain designed for it.

How hard can it be? Wasn't the SSR based on GMT360?

The SSR was a failure. It would be madness to build a luxury car on a truck platform. Total failure. The press would have a field day with that.

[pow]

The SSR was a failure. It would be madness to build a luxury car on a truck platform. Total failure. The press would have a field day with that.

They need to reframe it... "the concept car you can buy!"

[Lamar]

Dude, nobody's buying anything with the same underpinnings as the Presidential limo though...

[smk4565]

I agree with Regfootball totally. The S-class is and always was the global standard for this class. In 1963, this is what world leaders were driven around in:

And today it's this:

For nearly 50 years this has been the car. It isn't as simple as converting a GMT900 platform or Zeta and taking some shortcuts on the interior and throwing together a car like the S-class. There can be no shortcuts or compromises and making an "80% the car at 80% the price" isn't going to work. The people that spend $90-100k on a car are looking for perfection and prestige.

[Drew Dowdell]

Actually, a fairly famous world leader was driven around in this in 1963:

His counterpart was driven around in a Packard knock off.

The English prime ministers were driven around in Daimlers.

The French President Charles De Gaulle opted for a Citroen DS.

The Japanese Prime Minister used Toyota Crowns

So yeah.... aside from those.... they all used Benz....or Cadillac, or Rolls, or Lincoln