Here Is A Group Trying To Save Pontiac

[Oracle of Delphi]

Sometimes the link is down because they are upgrading, just so you know ...

Link: http://www.savingpontiac.org

[Satty]

Online petitions solve everything.

[z28luvr01]

Allow me to fast forward through the same ol' crap that pollutes every Pontiac thread on C&G:

Pontiac sucks. Only Avis cares that they're gone.

G3 = EXCITEMENT!!!!!

Stop that. I like Pontiac.

You're such an ass. 4cyl G6 = EXCITEMENT!!!!!

But Pontiac made more than just FWD Chevy rebadges

You're living in the past.

You realy don't know what you're talking about

Your mom.

...

Now that that's all out of the way, I hope the remainder of the thread consists of constructive discussion about the topic. I'm having a hard time figuring out what this group is intending to do. It sounds like they're trying to create a nationalized Pontiac, separate from GM that will be owned by the US government. If that's the case, good luck to them, because they're going to need it. Too many hurdles to get that to happen, not the least of which being that GM has repeatedly said that Pontiac is not for sale.

Nonetheless, I like hearing of these grassroots efforts to try to save the Pontiac name. Very telling if you ask me.

[PurdueGuy]

What's this? A poorly made website with an online petition? PONTIAC IS SAVED!

Oh wait, no it's not. Pretty sure all rights to Pontiac are still owned by GM, even if the brand is dead. If the Pontiac name were separated from GM, it would still have no manufacturing facility. If they somehow aquired the large amount of capital needed to aquire a factory, they'd still have no product, as GM would still hold all rights to all the designs. Oh, maybe a group owning Pontiac could get another manufacturer to make cars for them, then just add on Pontiac badges! It maybe almost worked for Saturn! Um, no.

Nice to dream, but it ain't happening. That's not a brand bias thing, it's a reality of business thing. The only way I see Pontiac coming back ever is as a low volume high margin specialty vehicle sold through a GM dealer. Pretty confident we won't ever see it live as a division or standalone company again.

[Intrepidation]

What's this? A poorly made website with an online petition? PONTIAC IS SAVED!

Oh wait, no it's not. Pretty sure all rights to Pontiac are still owned by GM, even if the brand is dead. If the Pontiac name were separated from GM, it would still have no manufacturing facility. If they somehow aquired the large amount of capital needed to aquire a factory, they'd still have no product, as GM would still hold all rights to all the designs. Oh, maybe a group owning Pontiac could get another manufacturer to make cars for them, then just add on Pontiac badges! It maybe almost worked for Saturn! Um, no.

Nice to dream, but it ain't happening. That's not a brand bias thing, it's a reality of business thing. The only way I see Pontiac coming back ever is as a low volume high margin specialty vehicle sold through a GM dealer. Pretty confident we won't ever see it live as a division or standalone company again.

And that's all that needs to be said.

What...is this...LOGIC...you speak? Crazy talk I say!

As you said, the only way Pontiac is ever coming back is if GM brings it back,a nd that will only ever happen if GM has the money and decides there's a market for niche performance vehicles (I'm sure there is, but GM does not have the money to go after a comparatively all market.

[Satty]

But they can sell 200,000 cars at 12% margin within 2 years!

[ShadowDog]

For all the intangible necessities required for a 'stand-alone' Pontiac to exist, the first thing that makes me shake my head is that their Founder and Executive Director is, of all things, a bean-counter. In my experience, there is little operational creativity or innovative mindset that comes with a CFO behind the helm.

[FAPTurbo]

This website looks like it's a twenty dollar per month daydream. That's an expensive daydream.

[Camino LS6]

I understand some of the sentiment, and agree about the loss of manufacturing, but otherwise...

What the hell are they talking about?

Not what I'd call a clear vision or a plan.

Still, as Z says, it's telling.

[daves87rs]

I plan to fine this under- who cares...

While it is nice, there is never going to be much support...

[FAPTurbo]

This would require significant government INVESTMENT!!!!!!!

[Justin Bimmer]

This would require significant government INVESTMENT!!!!!!!

Fapczar,

[Croc]

Allow me to fast forward through the same ol' crap that pollutes every Pontiac thread on C&G:

Pontiac sucks. Only Avis cares that they're gone.

G3 = EXCITEMENT!!!!!

Stop that. I like Pontiac.

You're such an ass. 4cyl G6 = EXCITEMENT!!!!!

But Pontiac made more than just FWD Chevy rebadges

You're living in the past.

You realy don't know what you're talking about

Your mom.

...

Now that that's all out of the way, I hope the remainder of the thread consists of constructive discussion about the topic. I'm having a hard time figuring out what this group is intending to do. It sounds like they're trying to create a nationalized Pontiac, separate from GM that will be owned by the US government. If that's the case, good luck to them, because they're going to need it. Too many hurdles to get that to happen, not the least of which being that GM has repeatedly said that Pontiac is not for sale.

Nonetheless, I like hearing of these grassroots efforts to try to save the Pontiac name. Very telling if you ask me.

Oh please, the excitement thread was one of the best this site has ever had.

[Camino LS6]

That would be a matter of opinion.

[deftonesfan867]

Sadly enough Pontiac started building excitement again, but it was too late

[Croc]

Of course, but the general consensus points in that direction. It certainly had broader appeal than the "adsd" thread of 4-5 years ago in the mod forums.

[Camino LS6]

I have no intention of starting a debate or an argument here, so I'll just make a statement.

I have never been more angered in my entire time at C&G than I was by the "excitement" thread and its subsequent spill-over into any later Pontiac thread.

It ruined things here for me to a large extent in that any topic related to Pontiac quickly morphed into mockery and abuse.

A rational discussion of one of my favorite subjects became impossible.

I sincerely hope that all of that can be relegated to the past now.

I love Pontiacs, and I enjoy talking about them. So I'd like to be able to do it unmolested.

[z28luvr01]

I have no intention of starting a debate or an argument here, so I'll just make a statement.

I have never been more angered in my entire time at C&G than I was by the "excitement" thread and its subsequent spill-over into any later Pontiac thread.

It ruined things here for me to a large extent in that any topic related to Pontiac quickly morphed into mockery and abuse.

A rational discussion of one of my favorite subjects became impossible.

I sincerely hope that all of that can be relegated to the past now.

I love Pontiacs, and I enjoy talking about them. So I'd like to be able to do it unmolested.

+1

[hyperv6]

Nothing needs to be said we know the truth.

[regfootball]

don't worry camino. no one will molest you.

[regfootball]

i will always defer to the Pontiac when we have SIDE BY SIDE EXCITEMENT!!!!

plus the G3 has the spoiler!

Edited December 1, 2009 by regfootball

[Intrepidation]

It's like trying to pick the lesser of two evils Except beside that fact that one has a gaping hole and the other has a snout, they're the same.

[regfootball]

NO! the G3 is a performance vehicle!!!!!!!!!!

[Croc]

I have no intention of starting a debate or an argument here, so I'll just make a statement.

I have never been more angered in my entire time at C&G than I was by the "excitement" thread and its subsequent spill-over into any later Pontiac thread.

It ruined things here for me to a large extent in that any topic related to Pontiac quickly morphed into mockery and abuse.

A rational discussion of one of my favorite subjects became impossible.

I sincerely hope that all of that can be relegated to the past now.

I love Pontiacs, and I enjoy talking about them. So I'd like to be able to do it unmolested.

Excuse me? Pontiac wasn't being mocked. GM and their utter disregard for the brand was what was being mocked, and with that the decision to shutter a brand that had been left out to dry for so long. If you couldn't see that at the time, or now, then I just can't help you. This is a GM fan site; you got angry over a thread? And that thread angered you more than any of the other things we've collectively experienced on this site? Wow.

[z28luvr01]

No, it's the fact that it's damn near impossible to have a legitimate discussion about Pontiac ever since then. Every thread that mentions Pontiac turns into a bitch-fest who think Pontiac is irrelevant and those who know otherwise.

[Camino LS6]

The conduct surrounding it was a major factor in my resignation from the C&G staff.

When Olds was killed, none of this sort of thing went on.

We comiserated and we celebrated the history of Oldsmobile.

GM issued the "Final 500" to mark the end in a respectful way.

With Pontiac, it was disrespect all around - from GM to the very "fans" on this site.

It really poisoned the well for me.

So, can we stop it now?

Edited December 1, 2009 by Camino LS6

[PurdueGuy]

Truth is there are those that do believe that the brand, in it's final years (decade?) was irrelevant aside from a very few select models. It's an open forum, and people will express themselves. Now, some could certainly choose to do so more maturely. The same thing goes for Saturn. I can understand viewpoints that see Saturn as a distraction or a waste, but these opinions often get expressed on here with kindergarten level insults. I can't see condemning the whole board for it, whether it's about Pontiac, Saturn, or something else, as those people with those views will be anywhere you go.

[Croc]

Truth is there are those that do believe that the brand, in it's final years (decade?) was irrelevant aside from a very few select models. It's an open forum, and people will express themselves. Now, some could certainly choose to do so more maturely. The same thing goes for Saturn. I can understand viewpoints that see Saturn as a distraction or a waste, but these opinions often get expressed on here with kindergarten level insults. I can't see condemning the whole board for it, whether it's about Pontiac, Saturn, or something else, as those people with those views will be anywhere you go.

Exactly. So many people on here were very vocal about their distaste for Saturn, blaming it, and not GM, for the poor product decisions that led to the cancellation of Oldsmobile and Pontiac.

As for why the response to Oldsmobile's cancellation was different than that of Pontiac on this site, well one only needs to look at what was going on. Oldsmobile was producing its best vehicles in decades and winning rave reviews in the process, particularly with the Aurora and Intrigue, and their unique division engines (Shortstar, Aurora V8). Fast forward to 2009, and Pontiac has...what? The G8. What else was worth talking about? I really liked the G8, but the rest of the lineup was junk, and not only that, but junk left out on the vine to wither. Malibu was redesigned, but G6 never received any updates to correct the easily-correctable interior foibles. Torrent was a blatant rebadge of the Equinox, itself not that great. G3? Solstice was pretty cool, but the interior again wasn't up to industry standards and it was the least practical of its competitors in terms of cargo/trunk space and interior volume.

Again, the point of the EXCITEMENT!!!! thread was to point out the absurdity of the GM product planners that taking a boring, lackluster Chevrolet/Oldsmobile/Saturn and adding ribbed cladding and other over-the-top superficial styling "enhancements" made it it "sporty," "performance" and "Pontiac."

G8 wasn't absurd, but it was one car, and it came way too late.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Croc

[z28luvr01]

Well, the whole thing came off as childish and unrepresentative of the type of discussions that we're capable of here. I for one let it go because it didn't technically break any rules, though in retrospect I probably should have closed it. It's bad enough to see plans for a revitalized RWD-only Pontiac go up in smoke in a matter of a couple of months. it's another thing to have groups of people $h! on the brand when it needed support the most. Instead of voicing outrage over GM's poor planning regarding Pontiac, you sat back and poked fun at every crappy Pontiac ever made. As far as compating Pontac to Olds and Saturn, both Saturn and Olds had the luxury of dying with some fine vehicles benefitting from billions of dollars of investment, while Pontiac had to make do with the scraps noone else wanted. That was hard enough to take. The excitement thread (and every subsequent Pontiac thread) just rubs salt in the wound.

[Justin Bimmer]

Has anybody thought to consider that so far practically everything GM said they were going to do pre-bankruptcy has changed?

Why isn't the last Pontiac off the line going to a Museum?

Maybe something else is going on?

Also when you say you don't want to start a discussion about something then make a statement that you know WILL cause discussion, don't be upset with the results of your statement.

Also, the thread everybody is complaining about was in the lounge! It wasn't in the holy grail land of Pontiac on C&G.

Finally, the end of Pontiac was when GM started being stupid and giving into Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealers that wanted to sell volume like a Chevrolet dealer. So the easiest thing for Wagoner to do was badge job so they could get volume.

I don't think we have heard the last from Pontiac.

[Camino LS6]

The piling on against Pontiac around here really alienated members.

That conduct is where the acrimony came from.

It was not directed at GM as some claim, it was directed at Pontiac and the people who owned and enjoyed them.

All of that activity disrupted each positive thread, thereby ruining it.

A few members are responsible for perpetuating this, and it has been a net negative for the site as a whole.

Now I ask again, can we stop now?

[Intrepidation]

I'll also add that if you can't laugh at GM''s obvious screw ups in product and management once in a while, you have no business criticizing marques like Toyota.

It was in the Lounge, it was all in good fun, you had the option to ignore it rather than go in and make a big stink. It was pre bankruptcy and Pontiac closure announcement IIRC.

You should know how I really feel about Pontiac, but if you don't oh well.

Caminio, you (knowingly) started the argument in this particular thread. I'd also like to point out that your response to JB is a response to a guy that actually owns a Pontiac right now.

At any rate, get this thread back on topic or its locked. That's all I'll say.

[Camino LS6]

OK this has gone off-track.

The point I've been trying to make here is that the negative impact of this ought to be recognized.

It's real.

And no, I intended no argument.

I just want everyone to understand how this episode has impacted some of the membership.

[Intrepidation]

ANyway, back on topic. Its a nice thought but there's not a hope in hell of it happening. GM owns the rights and petitions rarely if ever work anyway.

The best hope is that down the line when GM is financially stable and profitable that they bring the brand back as a focused performance niche brand. They just don't have the funds or the product to do it now, which is probably the biggest reason why the brand was shuttered.

[Camino LS6]

I mostly agree with that assessment of the situation, DF.

[Croc]

Well, the whole thing came off as childish and unrepresentative of the type of discussions that we're capable of here. I for one let it go because it didn't technically break any rules, though in retrospect I probably should have closed it. It's bad enough to see plans for a revitalized RWD-only Pontiac go up in smoke in a matter of a couple of months. it's another thing to have groups of people $h! on the brand when it needed support the most. Instead of voicing outrage over GM's poor planning regarding Pontiac, you sat back and poked fun at every crappy Pontiac ever made. As far as compating Pontac to Olds and Saturn, both Saturn and Olds had the luxury of dying with some fine vehicles benefitting from billions of dollars of investment, while Pontiac had to make do with the scraps noone else wanted. That was hard enough to take. The excitement thread (and every subsequent Pontiac thread) just rubs salt in the wound.

Well why shut it down in retrospect if it didn't violate any of the rules? That makes no sense.

Again, it made fun of GM's institutionalized belief that taking a clay model Chevy and using a fork to etch in ribbing along the sides suddenly made it a Pontiac. And yes, GM itself had admitted to doing that since the early 1980s. I'm not sure what you are even referring to about "$h!ting on a brand when it needed support the most" since the brand was canceled, the decision had been a long time coming, and it's a marketing label. So many people on this site seem to forget that this isn't the 1960s and all of these divisions are little mini-companies within the corporate umbrella--they aren't, and haven't been for decades.

Has anybody thought to consider that so far practically everything GM said they were going to do pre-bankruptcy has changed?

Why isn't the last Pontiac off the line going to a Museum?

Maybe something else is going on?

Also when you say you don't want to start a discussion about something then make a statement that you know WILL cause discussion, don't be upset with the results of your statement.

Also, the thread everybody is complaining about was in the lounge! It wasn't in the holy grail land of Pontiac on C&G.

Finally, the end of Pontiac was when GM started being stupid and giving into Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealers that wanted to sell volume like a Chevrolet dealer. So the easiest thing for Wagoner to do was badge job so they could get volume.

I don't think we have heard the last from Pontiac.

Of course we haven't. GM created Saturn in the 1980s, so who's to say they won't create/recreate another brand in the future? Who's to say there won't be a "Pontiac" edition for certain sports cars down the line? Pontiac will most likely go away, and after a period of time could be reintroduced. Either way, the legacy of the GOOD Pontiacs of the past aren't tarnished in any way, shape or form.

The piling on against Pontiac around here really alienated members.

That conduct is where the acrimony came from.

It was not directed at GM as some claim, it was directed at Pontiac and the people who owned and enjoyed them.

All of that activity disrupted each positive thread, thereby ruining it.

A few members are responsible for perpetuating this, and it has been a net negative for the site as a whole.

Now I ask again, can we stop now?

I have it on pretty good authority when we started hemorrhaging members it was because of something else. Why? Because I asked those members leaving. They were more put off by the negativity of certain members TOWARD GM AS A WHOLE for shuttering Pontiac, more-so than anything else. See, many of them were still GM fans, and every time they came to the site all they saw was bitching and negativity about how GM sucked, was irredeemable, worthless, etc.

I'll also add that if you can't laugh at GM''s obvious screw ups in product and management once in a while, you have no business criticizing marques like Toyota.

It was in the Lounge, it was all in good fun, you had the option to ignore it rather than go in and make a big stink. It was pre bankruptcy and Pontiac closure announcement IIRC.

Bingo. All counts.

OK this has gone off-track.

The point I've been trying to make here is that the negative impact of this ought to be recognized.

It's real.

And no, I intended no argument.

I just want everyone to understand how this episode has impacted some of the membership.

I agree the whole episode negatively impacted membership, especially with new threads being created on a semi-daily basis with morose, doom-and-gloom rants about how GM is dead, shatters dreams, tortures puppies, etc.

But to blame ONE THREAD that was only active for a few days as the sole cause of membership decline? That's preposterous. I think the progressively unhinged rants had a far greater impact than a silly thread in the Lounge.

ANyway, back on topic. Its a nice thought but there's not a hope in hell of it happening. GM owns the rights and petitions rarely if ever work anyway.

The best hope is that down the line when GM is financially stable and profitable that they bring the brand back as a focused performance niche brand. They just don't have the funds or the product to do it now, which is probably the biggest reason why the brand was shuttered.

Exactly. Penske couln't even get it. GM probably has some plan to continue capitalizing on Pontiac in some way down the line; at the very least they retain the rights to the Matchbox miniatures and other merchandising rights.

[Camino LS6]

I give up.

[Oracle of Delphi]

All I am going to say is this, what's past is past, but looking forward I think people on this site should think twice before they post. On my part in the last few months, I have gone out of my way to bring this site to GM's attention. That is finally starting to take shape and GM is starting to take notice of C&G. Those GM car reviews that C&G is getting are examples of me working behind the scenes and hard work from the mods and Oldsmoboi. In the future do you want GM to see those kinds of threads? GM is here you know, as members. Going forward, I think if you are about to ding another GM brand or model, you should say to yourself, would I want someone to say that about the brand or car I drive?

I think I know the answer to that question, however I could be wrong.

It's a new world now post bankruptcy, and we should all be working together as a team, to help GM return to the great car company we know it can be, and in doing that we help each other and ourselves in the process.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I think Camino's point is that everytime an article is posted about Pontiac, it doesn't do any good for the same 5 members to post Excitement!!!!!!!! or fleet jokes, or remind everyone else that Pontiac was full of rebadged Chevys.

I'm sure people would get annoyed if every new thread about a Cobalt, Aveo, Malibu, Impala, I came in and reminded everyone that they are just going to be fleeted anyway. It was just posted on another thread that Chevy has higher fleet % than Pontiac for at least the past 3 years. Yet everytime someone says something about Pontiac, we are reminded how they are fleet queens.

[Camino LS6]

Well said, PCS.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Camino LS6

[regfootball]

All I am going to say is this, what's past is past, but looking forward I think people on this site should think twice before they post. On my part in the last few months, I have gone out of my way to bring this site to GM's attention. That is finally starting to take shape and GM is starting to take notice of C&G. Those GM car reviews that C&G is getting are examples of me working behind the scenes and hard work from the mods and Oldsmoboi. In the future do you want GM to see those kinds of threads? GM is here you know, as members. Going forward, I think if you are about to ding another GM brand or model, you should say to yourself, would I want someone to say that about the brand or car I drive?

I think I know the answer to that question, however I could be wrong.

It's a new world now post bankruptcy, and we should all be working together as a team, to help GM return to the great car company we know it can be, and in doing that we help each other and ourselves in the process.

i'd be more than happy to be a road tester, send any and all vehicles my way, including those in development. can you even put me on the payroll?

the things i am seeing out of Buick will help blunt the Pontiac loss. And even then, Pontiac.....who knows what will happen.

I'll miss Saturn also, but if Chevy becomes better as a result, then maybe that's ok too.

Some folks are getting pretty emotional about A car, or A brand, thing is its just a car. In the grand scheme of living and dying, we already have tons of cool cars on the market. Its not worth investing that much emotion behind it as a consumer or fan. If you are one who makes and sells these vehicles, it does matter on another level.

i bought some stuff (t shirts mugs etc) from saturncollection.com last night. i wondered if i would look stupid with all that saturn wear now that the brand is dead. i decided i didn't care, i wanted to have it. at the same time, i realized i still have chevy, ford, buick, etc. i wonder if pontiac will be selling all their old apparel and stuff ....i got me 2 astra t shirts for hopefully that time when i can find that lightly used white XR five door with all options and stick. if i don't then a new Buick or Chevy or Ford will be just fine.

Pontiac had to put on pause because they couldn't bring the big prices, saturn is similar, new saturn was to sell cars with similar capabilities of opel and saab but at low low prices. Buick will deliver the pontiac level performance at higher prices which is what GM needed. It is fair to rip on GM for mishandling pontiac and creating the parameters on which to rip them (i.e. cladding, G3's etc.) its ok if we have fun with it, i feel. Some take it too far. there is a middle ground here we all can coexist on. its ok to take a friendly jab at GM for messing pontiac, and at the same time we should understand why someone might feel bad if pontiac or olds or whatever has gone away. there is a middle ground.

[Justin Bimmer]

I think everybody has said their peace and to help honor Camino's wish of no further discussion on this matter, as well as other people's wishes, please lets all move on.