EPA to Lower Fuel Economy Ratings for 2008

[BrewSwillis]

Alright, they got Toyota on their horsepower loophole......now they are working on their false MPG ratings for their hybrids:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060111/ap_on_bi_ge/fuel_economy

[Derek77]

It doesn't say it in this article, but other articles have said that these changes could help some vehicles achieve better mileage than what was once stated. Which I think will help GM out is some areas.

[siegen]

2008 is too long to wait! Think of how many Prius's will already be out on the roads by then!!

[Paolino]

Good. I can't wait to see what cars really get.

[VenSeattle]

The new, lower ratings, however, will not be used to gauge compliance with government regulations requiring automakers to produce fleets averaging at least 27.5 mpg for cars and 21 mpg for light trucks.

EPA Administrator Stephen Johnson said the Corporate Average Fuel Economy program run by the Transportation Department uses separate requirements for determining fuel economy.

I'm sure it is only a matter of time before they adjust their requirements because...

But Dan Becker, director of the Sierra Club's global warming program, said that because the rules for complying with the CAFE standards aren't changing, "the bottom line here is that this will have zero effect on oil savings or environmental impact."

Target identified.

[BuddyP]

Interesting. I do agree, it seems that true city driving tends to get lower milage than what the sticker reads, however, hwy driving seems to be above the sticker in most cases. For example, my Avalanches sticker reads 14 city, 17 hwy. Normal driving in town gets me 13.5 to 14mpg. But I see 18.5-19.5 on the hwy. I averaged my milage at 70 miles one way on the hwy when I first bought the Av and got 19.4mpg running 67mph. Running 70mph or slightly above would probably get me in the high 18's mpg.

For reference, I got all the above info using the trucks DIC numbers and averages.

Edited January 11, 2006 by BuddyP

[torobud]

A REAL highway milage estimate cannot be at 54 MPH (as told in other articles) - That is JUST REDICULOUS! - It should atleast be 65

If you go 54MPH on the highways around Chicago I will be that guy behind you blinking my lights - or you will have already been rearended and I will be ticked off that I am sitting in a traffic jam because of you

[Satty]

I'm sure that by 2008 there will be close to half a million Priuii running around, getting 15mpg below what the sticker says.

Cafe standards for trucks need to be upped. If the GMT-900s do as well as they supposedly do, this would give GM an advantage, not having to worry about CAFE penalties.

[regfootball]

A REAL highway milage estimate cannot be at 54 MPH (as told in other articles) - That is JUST REDICULOUS! - It should atleast be 65

If you go 54MPH on the highways around Chicago I will be that guy behind you blinking my lights - or you will have already been rearended and I will be ticked off that I am sitting in a traffic jam because of you

highway testing should be at 65 mph.

most of our freeway traffic in town here is around 70 and closer to 80mph on interstates.

[Hudson]

Alright, they got Toyota on their horsepower loophole......now they are working on their false MPG ratings for their hybrids:

For what seems like the one-millionth time, EPA mileage ratings are NOT set by Toyota and cannot be falsified by Toyota. Get over it...Toyota designed a vehicle that beats the EPA test better than others!

No matter how you cut it, the Prius DOES get better gas mileage than ANY mid-sized car.

[balthazar]

How does the prius "beat the EPA test" so 'well'? Could it be the nature of the powertrain allows a marked 'gap' to exist between EPA test methods and real world numbers? If so, a different standard of testing needs to be implemented on hybrids ASAP. That is, if the purpose of EPA testing is still to benefit the consumer.

[91z4me]

How does the prius "beat the EPA test" so 'well'? Could it be the nature of the powertrain allows a marked 'gap' to exist between EPA test methods and real world numbers? If so, a different standard of testing needs to be implemented on hybrids ASAP. That is, if the purpose of EPA testing is still to benefit the consumer.

But this gap isn't Toyota's fault. They simply studied the test and found out how to make their car's perform well in these tests. That is simply good business. For example if a teacher told you what kind of obsticale course you would be running and that you got a better grade by finishing faster, wouldn't you study the course and find out the best route to take? If you didn't do that then you are just not doing the best that you can do.

[Ghost Dog]

If the new standards do take into account heavier stop and go traffic,The Hybrids will gain a greater advantage on gasoline cars.

[siegen]

No matter how you cut it, the Prius DOES get better gas mileage than ANY mid-sized car.

Not by much, and that's the problem. The car is advertised and marketted based off of its fuel economy, which is supposed to be around 60mpg. Yet from my own observations it's more around 45mpg (surfing Prius owner's sites/forums and www.fueleconomy.gov), and I was just watching the news, and they said Consumer Reports rated its city mileage in the mid to high 30's.

Giving the Prius the benefit of the doubt, and say it does average 45mpg. You can buy a new Civic, equally equipped and same size, for a few grand less, and acheive high 30's. And consider if Consumer Reports is right, or you just have a lead foot, the difference between the hybrid Prius and gasoline Civic is next to nothing.

It's just not worth it, and thankfully the new EPA regulations will prove it. I'm sure Toyota will do something so it doesn't take as big of a hit, like actually improve the real world performance of the car, at 60-70 mph.

[cmattson]

Hi all,

If you want to read all the minutia, go here:

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420d06002.pdf

Interesting to browse. The EPA really is doing their homework on this -- and it should clear things up quite a bit. The problem appears to be that the EPA testing was based on "perfect conditions", etc - rather than focusing on real world conditions (i.e. use of air conditioners, etc). The EPA test is well known by auto manufacturers and I think we can safely speculate that some manufacturers have engineered their vehicles to improve on this test -- as opposed to doing better in real life. This isn't much different than the whole fiasco by Honda where put steel reinforcements behind their bumper in strategic locations to help the car perform better on a pole-crash test. As a result, the car did better in testing-- but in real life the car wasn't any-more crash worthy than it otherwise normally would've been.

It's interesting to note that in their testing, only ONE vehicle observed combined-mpg performed better than the current EPA label AND BOTH of the proposed new testing standards. Chevrolet should be PROUD of the tested 2004 Silverado 4wd! In 28,000 miles of testing, it beat the current EPA label by 5%, the "5-cycle" test by 16% and the "MPG-based" test by 14%.

For comparison, an '03 Civic lost 23%, 1%, and 6% respectively.

Edited January 12, 2006 by cmattson

[sciguy_0504]

Again, getting better fuel economy is not the sole reason hybrids exist, either. To many people it may be the most influential reason to buy one but it's not the only reason. The Prius puts out a lot less polutants in the air than any car currently available to the masses.

Furthermore, some people do not care whether it's financially "worth it" to purchase a hybrid, whether its for environmental beliefs or they just like the car.

Don't laugh too hard, though. The ratings for every car are going to nosedive and people are going to be outraged. Plus, GM has hybrids coming out, too.

[cmattson]

No matter how you cut it, the Prius DOES get better gas mileage than ANY mid-sized car.

* very debatable *

#1: The Prius being mid-sized is a misconception. By interior volume, yes the car is a midsize. In reality, a chunk of that interior volumn is that awkwardly shaped hatch region. Sit in one, front and back, and then compare to virtually any other mid-size car and you'll easily see that the Prius is much more comparable in usable interior volume to a compact sedan.

#2: Go back and wade through the EPA document: their testing of a Prius, in almost half-a-million miles of use - achieved a paultry 41mpg. My Malibu, in a 60/40 hwy/city mix (with roughly half of those hwy miles in stop-and-go rush-hour traffic) routinely hits 36+ mpg.

[sciguy_0504]

I think a lot of people wish their car got 41mpg. Gas prices are rising again...

[cmattson]

Again, getting better fuel economy is not the sole reason hybrids exist, either. To many people it may be the most influential reason to buy one but it's not the only reason. The Prius puts out a lot less polutants in the air than any car currently available to the masses.

Furthermore, some people do not care whether it's financially "worth it" to purchase a hybrid, whether its for environmental beliefs or they just like the car.

Don't laugh too hard, though. The ratings for every car are going to nosedive and people are going to be outraged. Plus, GM has hybrids coming out, too.

GM doesn't seem to be hit nearly as hard as other manufacturers with the new EPA ratings. GM's always had their numbers on the conservative-side & I can't ever recall them engineering-a-vehicle to beat an automotive test a la Honda or Toyota. Yes, GM does have consumer-hybrids coming, but remember: GM's dual mode system is quite unlike Toyota's single-motor synergy system. GM's system is built around the transmission gearing. We simply don't have any information at this stage to know if the new EPA tests will affect GM's hybrid system at all. It's interesting to note that GM's dual-mode hybrid claims only a 25% gain -- unlike Toyota's over-the-top approach -- which again may illustrate GM's conservative nature.

Lastly, while a hybrids unquestionably polute less, they also have rather large batteries that need to be disposed of -- so it's not a complete gain either.

Fuel economy technology must improve. I don't think that hybrids are the final answer, but if even if they simply serve as a bridge to get us to a future, better technology, they'll more-than-have-proved their worth..

Edited January 12, 2006 by cmattson

[Derek77]

Again, getting better fuel economy is not the sole reason hybrids exist, either.  To many people it may be the most influential reason to buy one but it's not the only reason. The Prius puts out a lot less polutants in the air than any car currently available to the masses.

Furthermore, some people do not care whether it's financially "worth it" to purchase a hybrid, whether its for environmental beliefs or they just like the car.

Don't laugh too hard, though.  The ratings for every car are going to nosedive and people are going to be outraged.  Plus, GM has hybrids coming out, too.

The less polution was suppose to be a bi-product of the less fuel used. Or so I thought.

[91z4me]

The less polution was suppose to be a bi-product of the less fuel used. Or so I thought.

Yep. But lets remember that the most inefficient combustion and most pollutants are created when the vehicle is started.

[balthazar]

But this gap isn't Toyota's fault. They simply studied the test and found out how to make their car's perform well in these tests.... If you didn't do that then you are just not doing the best that you can do.

I didn't say it was toyota's fault. I did question why the prius 'performed better' in the EPA run (especially as opposed to other non-hybrid toyotas). You did not address that.

The powertrain has to be the prime factor. But as I stated: if the current EPA testing methods result in a hybrid getting labeled grossly higher MPG than the vehicle returns in the real world, such only hurts the consumer who may have based their choice on that MPG #.

Assuredly the EPA is looking carefully into this.

[91z4me]

Assuredly the EPA is looking carefully into this.

Hence the new test measures.

[Dsuupr]

For what seems like the one-millionth time, EPA mileage ratings are NOT set by Toyota and cannot be falsified by Toyota. Get over it...Toyota designed a vehicle that beats the EPA test better than others!

No matter how you cut it, the Prius DOES get better gas mileage than ANY mid-sized car.

I would like to argue this one.

My brother has bought a 2005 prius and we have a 2005 Cobalt. He gets 45 mpg, we get 40 mpg. We drive the same way (infact I have more of a lead foot).

Sorry, toyota is the king of lies.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

For what seems like the one-millionth time, EPA mileage ratings are NOT set by Toyota and cannot be falsified by Toyota. Get over it...Toyota designed a vehicle that beats the EPA test better than others!

No matter how you cut it, the Prius DOES get better gas mileage than ANY mid-sized car.

Oh yeah... I forgot. Toyota is god.

Or at least that what MOST in the press would have us believe.

Toyota knew the test was bullsh*t and they did the same thing that they always do and exploited everyone elses stupidity/gullibility to their advantage... And what's even more funny is that most STUPID americans actually bought into the garbage... No doubt because they were TOLD to.

You talk of Toyota on these boards as if they are some golden mesiah. If this is the attitude of the press in general, then it's no wonder that Toyota is being allowed to destroy our automakers and force their lies and "as good as" NOT "better than" cars onto a COACHABLE public, all the while the domestics have one arm tied behind their back because of CONSTANT NEGATIVE exposure.

It's funny that the collective media is now saying "Toyota isn't to blame, the EPA is." 2 years after that same press BOUGHT into and PUBLISHED countless testimonials on this technology and it's literal too-good-to-be-true numbers.

If you knew the tests were wrong and the numbers were wrong; and you knew that Toyota knew the numbers were wrong, then why publish and perpetuate the myth of 55 MPG? Why not expose Toyota? Why not exposure the antiquated system? But no... Instead, now the media is busy trying to save Toyota's ass for them (Like always) by mitigating blame elsewhere.

I hope this DESTROYS Toyota's image as it has ALREADY grown to be a major issue. (Funny again that it is being brought up just in time to handicapp the domestic hybrids) But I'm sure it won't do much damage to Toyota as the 'journalists' in this country would NEVER allow that to happen and all the anti-domestic folks will say "It's a new technology, they deserve a break" unlike when GM pioneered so many technologies.

If the Prius mileage were to decrease by 30% it would be at 38.5 MPG...

Now, why in the hell would I buy a Prius for $21,725 when I can get a Cobalt for $12,990 that gets 33 MPG?

And this is just a basic example..

SOURCES:

toyota.com and chevrolet.com

[sciguy_0504]

Thinking as a businessman, FOG, would you or wouldn't you publish the Prius' MPG numbers that are government certified? You act like Toyota pulled the numbers out of its ass. The EPA's test system is old, outdated, rediculous and it's obvious when almost every car sold in this country does not get the MPG rating that's on the sticker. Of course the rags are going to hype on the Prius' MPG numbers when it first came out because they only had EPA certified figures to work with. A couple years down the road and they now have evidence to the contrary.

I sincerely hope GM's hybrids get what the EPA says they will or else a lot of crow will be eaten on here.

Here's a question: how much do you want to bet the major reason the new GMT900's get great fuel economy is because GM designed the powertrain around the outdated EPA test?

[cmattson]

As a business, yes, I guess you would advertise them; especially when you have the history of playing fast-and-loose that Toyota does:

1. Removing rear seats before measuring interior volume of SUV: check.

2. Measuring "ground clearance" from door-sill to ground (as opposed to frame-to-ground): check.

3. Putting reinforcements in our bumpers to artifically score better on a pole-crash test: check.

4. Measuring hp with necessary external vehicle components removed: check.

5. Setting a 7500 mile normal / 15000 mile severe oil-change schedule on their engines to artificially reduce the cost-of-ownership: check.

Do you have any doubt that Toyota wouldn't attempt to design a vehicle that could achieve great EPA test scores - but cannot achieve them in everyday real life?

[BrewSwillis]

Of course the rags are going to hype on the Prius' MPG numbers when it first came out because they only had EPA certified figures to work with.  A couple years down the road and they now have evidence to the contrary.

Blame the auto rags??? Are you sure you don't WORK for Toyota??

This is not an auto rag (unless you are referring to Toyota as an auto rag......which would be fine then):

and here's on I really thought was funny. Helping reassure the people who need constant reassurement:

Edited January 12, 2006 by BrewSwillis

[Hudson]

I would like to argue this one.

My brother has bought a 2005 prius and we have a 2005 Cobalt.  He gets 45 mpg, we get 40 mpg.  We drive the same way (infact I have more of a lead foot).

Sorry, toyota is the king of lies.

This argument is getting so boring. Just because you fail to recognize facts doesn't mean these same facts don't exist.

Driven over the same roads, I can't IMAGINE a lead-foot driven Cobalt getting much gas mileage relative to a Prius. But since I can't dispute your CLAIMS for 40 mpg (again, which I highly doubt), I'll leave it there.

Second, what are these lies from Toyota? Their use of EPA estimates for gas mileage comparisons? You're calling Toyota the "king of lies" because they follow the law by using the ONLY fuel economy numbers that they're allowed in advertising? Numbers that were compiled by using the EPA's formula? How is Toyota lying?

Lastly, the Prius is available with THOUSANDS of dollars in tax credits, which bring it way down in price. The Prius also pollutes less, but nobody seems to care about that. And the Prius is a larger car than the Cobalt, but again...nobody pays attention to the FACTS.

[Guest Josh]

I'll say this. When the new SAE testing of hp and torque came into play this last model year, the Japs were affected far and away more than the domestics.

Wouldnt the same coin hold true for the imports?

The best part is this. Once the new testings are put into place the Prius will be pulled due to it being a "limited production" vehicle...this will give Toyota at least two years to figure out how to cheat the new system.

Now, where's that damn AH-HA wink when I need it?

[turbo200]

Blame the auto rags???  Are you sure you don't WORK for Toyota??

This is not an auto rag (unless you are referring to Toyota as an auto rag......which would be fine then):

and here's on I really thought was funny.  Helping reassure the people who need constant reassurement:

it's called good marketing, and it's called toyota relying on a government-enforced agency to provide proof of a selling point for thier vehicles. In all those ads you see that little asterisk? That little asterisk is telling you these are EPA certified figures. The same EPA that does exactly the same tests for Chevrolet and gives the Malibu with the V6 and EPA verfied highway mileage of 32.

Good marketing. GM could use some of it.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'll say this. When the new SAE testing of hp and torque came into play this last model year, the Japs were affected far and away more than the domestics.

Wouldnt the same coin hold true for the imports?

The best part is this. Once the new testings are put into place the Prius will be pulled due to it being a "limited production" vehicle...this will give Toyota at least two years to figure out how to cheat the new system.

Now, where's that damn AH-HA wink when I need it?

Prius is being pulled?

[76ChevyTrucker]

Well, here goes my two cents on the issue of fuel mileage. I know that there are flaws in the system of getting fuel mileage results which is why there are gaps in what the sticker says and what me, or you, or joe blow down the street gets. But one thing I have to say is that if you take two cars, equally loaded, such as my 2001 Impala LS with the 3.8, and my next door neighbor's 2003 Camry LE with the V6 (forgive me for not remembering the displacement) and we both drive back and forth to work and other errands, equaling up to about a 50/50, maybe 60/40 highway city driving ethic, and doing the mileage the old fashioned way....you know, looking at the trip odometer, looking at how much fuel you filled up with, and dividing it, his Camry always ponies up about 25-27, meanwhile my Impala ponies up regularly 28-32. Now I know this might be attributed to my better knowledge of how to draft semi-trucks, but the fact is that his car is newer, only has 50,000-ish miles on it and still gets worse mileage than my car with 105,000-ish miles on it. Go figure, eh?